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Topic: A quite good mechanic...
Message: Posted by: h2o (Dec 7, 2007 08:07AM)
Just found this video on youtube, the guy is 23 years old, but he's already quite good at shuffling cards...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvxoMgT5ZAg

His second deal is really amazing, and his dices moves are...well, just have look :)
Message: Posted by: Vandy Grift (Dec 7, 2007 08:41AM)
I liked the false deals. Nice work, is that you h2o?
Message: Posted by: MagicKim (Dec 7, 2007 08:50AM)
I liked the second deal. I don't like people doing moves on camera with bees though :(
Bottom with half a deck.. I don't see the point. Seldom you have the opportunity to deal with half a deck..

Kim
Message: Posted by: Expertmagician (Dec 7, 2007 09:03AM)
The moves looked great, but it is hard to tell because of the lighting and Bee cards.

My main critisism is the fact thay he worked TOO FAST. If he slowed down a bit it would be better and look more natural.

If I saw someone handle cards that smooth and FAST in a game, I would be suspecious :) ... even though I did not see anything.
Message: Posted by: h2o (Dec 7, 2007 09:08AM)
[quote]
Vandy Grift wrote:
I liked the false deals. Nice work, is that you h2o?
[/quote]

LOL, unfortunately no....


[quote]
MagicKim wrote:
Seldom you have the opportunity to deal with half a deck..
[/quote]

I would say it's safer to wait that the deck is thiner before attempting a bottom, depending on the kind of game you play and the correct moment or opportunity to get a located card. By the way, it's not so uncommon in private or friendly games for the dealer not to complete the cut, and to just start dealing by picking the bottom stack.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Dec 7, 2007 09:20AM)
To me this guy is good. What's scary about his moves is that I have footage of these exact moves done by Steve and Rod the Hop. It seems as though he has gotten my footage from somewhere and copied the moves. To me his moves are not fast even if many of ya'll may think so; he has a natural flow that I would like all of you shuffle workers to get. For the record Steve's shuffling speed doing these exact moves are the same.

Take Care

Doc
Message: Posted by: splice (Dec 7, 2007 09:26AM)
To be honest I have never seen anyone not complete the cut except in protection videos.

As in all things, you do what you can do according to the games you play.
Message: Posted by: Vandy Grift (Dec 7, 2007 10:26AM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-07 10:20, Unknown419 wrote:
For the record Steve's shuffling speed doing these exact moves are the same.

[/quote]

Yes, that's what I thought as well. His running cuts look a lot like Fortes. Very fast, but I like fast. He may be hyper like me, I tend to do things fast as well.
Message: Posted by: matu (Dec 7, 2007 10:52AM)
I've heard of that guy before. My understanding was that he is like Forte's protege.
Kim, in most of the videos I've seen Steve Forte deal bottoms he only uses half of the deck :) He is definitely good.
What's good about his muck is that for once, it's not a magician demo of a move.
Message: Posted by: MagicKim (Dec 7, 2007 11:01AM)
Matu, that was my point. I can't see the point as I have never seen a game where you just pick the reminder up and deal, just like splice said.

Kim
Message: Posted by: Ron Conley (Dec 7, 2007 11:06AM)
Good hands, think I recognize them. The speed is good for a casino dealer, too fast for a home game. If it's who I think, the reason he deals the bottoms with a short deck is because he's not playing with a full deck.
Message: Posted by: h2o (Dec 7, 2007 11:21AM)
Can't believe I'm the only one to see sometimes people just pick up the bottom stack and deal. I've even seen it done by 2 guys a couple of months ago in a poker tournament I played in. It was an illegal joint and there were no official dealers so players had to shuffle, cut and deal by themselves.
Next time in your private game, if it's not a too formal one, just do it yourself and you'll see that nobody will care. And if there are complains, at least you know that those players have a sense for protection against cheating.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Dec 7, 2007 11:23AM)
:)
Message: Posted by: MagicKim (Dec 7, 2007 11:26AM)
H2o, if they complain, it would be because they know what I do in my spare time.

Kim
Message: Posted by: splice (Dec 7, 2007 11:53AM)
H2o, it's not because you can do it in your games that others should just try it out.

If no one does that in the games I play, then doing it myself will possibly attract attention. It doesn't matter if no one says a thing, if suddenly one or two people start watching me because I do things differently than everyone else, that's no good.

Same thing with everything else. If people are using overhand shuffles, are you going to go in there and use riffles and strips? I don't think that's such a good idea. No matter that no one would grab you and drag you outside for doing it, you want to blend in as much as possible, yes?

Which is why I said "you do what you can do according to the games you play". So when I practice bottom dealing, I deal from a full deck. The games I play do not provide me with an easy opportunity to deal from a half deck, so I don't bother practicing that. I am sure there is a reason for the mechanic in this video to do it, after all no move exists in a void. But there is no reason for someone to start not completing cuts and deal from half a deck just because someone in a video or a message board does it. There must be motivation behind what you're doing, just like in magic.
Message: Posted by: card cheat (Dec 7, 2007 12:04PM)
That's Mr. Z.

I have ALWAYS admired his second deal. His stud seconds are amongst the best that I have ever seen.

But, shhh, don't tell him that I said so. Wouldn't want him to get a big head!

Good man, Z.

CC
Message: Posted by: h2o (Dec 7, 2007 12:33PM)
I didn't say that I do it myself. In any case it would be useless for me as I don't bottom deal. Just that it's not something completely unusual and that you may happen to see it during a game. I should have pointed that most of the time when people just pick the bottom deck and deal, it's because a plastic deck is in use and they just seem not being confident and clever dealing from a thick plastic deck.

[quote]
card cheat wrote:
That's Mr. Z.
[/quote]

I didn't know Mr Z was a youngster lol
Message: Posted by: splice (Dec 7, 2007 12:46PM)
H2o, my point is that "completely unusual" is relative to the games you play. The games I play, yes, definitely, not completing the cut and dealing from half a deck would be completely unusual, whether with plastic cards or not.

Again, "you do what you can do according to the games you play", and that's the last time I'll say it.

CC, did you notice that others had ideas about who was in the video, but didn't name names? Just a thought.
Message: Posted by: Vandy Grift (Dec 7, 2007 01:11PM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-07 13:04, card cheat wrote:

His stud seconds are amongst the best that I have ever seen.

[/quote]

I agree, they are very good.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Dec 7, 2007 01:24PM)
I've never seen this guy before but by putting 2 and 2 together I would say that it is Mr. Z. (even if I'm wrong) because I heard that he was Steve's protege and this footage to me proves it. I have never seen these dice moves done by any one except Steve and it is in the dice moves that this guy do that my dice teacher Prett said that "this is what your man was trying to do" and then demonstrated his version of the correct way to do it. So on this note alone, I would have to definitely agree with CC of who he is.

Students ya'll are now looking at the real work that you have to practice.


Respectfully,

Doc
Message: Posted by: reasons14 (Dec 7, 2007 02:07PM)
Sort of puts things in perspective. Those studs where very smooth. His muck looked natural as well.
Message: Posted by: Ron Conley (Dec 7, 2007 04:30PM)
That's the best close-up pad I've ever seen, it's huge.
Message: Posted by: papermechanic (Dec 7, 2007 04:57PM)
Man everything looks so good and the action on the deals is insane.
Message: Posted by: rawdawg (Dec 7, 2007 05:04PM)
Eh... he's no Jiggaboo Jones....
Message: Posted by: KingStardog (Dec 7, 2007 05:43PM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-07 11:26, Vandy Grift wrote:
[quote]
On 2007-12-07 10:20, Unknown419 wrote:
For the record Steve's shuffling speed doing these exact moves are the same.

[/quote]

Yes, that's what I thought as well. His running cuts look a lot like Fortes. Very fast, but I like fast. He may be hyper like me, I tend to do things fast as well.
[/quote]

I don't know how the card work will hold up in different parts of the country. Can't say. It won't go here. Mob rules mentality. I think they will turn on anybody that doesn't have a slow and easy pace where they can burn you hands good.

The dice work was a little rough but it won't take much to polish up from there. The smack is good for expose. won't fly in any place I know. All in all not bad though. I think he really shined on the fourth or fifth switch, I forget now without watching it again.

Depends on where you want to go with it. I saw some work like that at a trade show, and the guy was a no name. He was taking $900 a day and that ain't too shabby for a gig like that. Standing on concrete all day is fine when your young. He was pitching the company here and there too. He was very engaging with the specs and kept a small crowd when some of the other booths were empty.
Message: Posted by: Ron Conley (Dec 7, 2007 05:48PM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-07 18:04, raw dawg wrote:
Eh... he's no Jiggaboo Jones....
[/quote]

Maybe not yet, but he's on his way. I like the kid he got talent, but he's a couple of tacos short of a combination plate.
Message: Posted by: card cheat (Dec 7, 2007 07:02PM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-07 18:43, KingStardog wrote:
I don't know how the card work will hold up in different parts of the country. I think they will turn on anybody that doesn't have a slow and easy pace where they can burn you hands good.
[/quote]

Exactly.

His talent is quite obvious, but I agree with what you say here to the letter.

CC
Message: Posted by: tommy (Dec 7, 2007 07:11PM)
Since I don't play in home games, it looks a natural enough pace to me.
Message: Posted by: rawdawg (Dec 7, 2007 07:31PM)
Exactly. This is the pace one needs to deal in a Casino. More hands, more rake.

Mmm... tacos.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Dec 7, 2007 07:55PM)
Anyway: The faster the better for a dealer working for tips. More pots = more tips! Many private games here have dealers who deal for tips. Players generally like fast efficient dealers to keep the action rolling.
Message: Posted by: Clock (Dec 7, 2007 08:45PM)
Great stuff...Thirsty for more!
Message: Posted by: card cheat (Dec 7, 2007 10:22PM)
Sniff around. It's out there.

At least, it used to be.

CC
Message: Posted by: C. Loubard (Dec 7, 2007 10:22PM)
Yes sir, that indeed is Mr. Z.

great stuff as always.
Message: Posted by: reasons14 (Dec 7, 2007 11:03PM)
Yall say its to fast to fly in some games. What makes you think he can't do it slow and smooth as well?
Message: Posted by: card cheat (Dec 8, 2007 12:35AM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-08 00:03, reasons14 wrote:
Yall say its to fast to fly in some games. What makes you think he can't do it slow and smooth as well?
[/quote]

Nobody said that he couldn't dumb it down.

All that was said, if I remember properly, was that the handling (namely, the shuffling) was a little too flashy for some games. Take into consideration that if the guy handling the cards the best always wins on his own deal, or that a certain person (takeoff man) hits heavyweight hands when he shuffles or deals that this would be valid cause of suspicion in the eyes of those who lacked the same manual dexterity when shuffling or dealing.

I will say that I have played against people who did make a comment about how "familiar" I seemed to be with the cards. That I must play often. I can also tell you that, as soon as a comment like that was made, I played on my belly (or at least toned it down a bunch) until I sensed that it was safe to win more often, or to make bigger hands.

When a mechanic gets into the habit of handling the cards a certain way, it can be VERY challenging to modify those habits, or to add a contrary skillset altogether. I'm sure that some of the more seasoned among us can identify with this.

But, it is important to be mindful of how your work would appear in the eyes of any mark. You can probably be too fast or flashy for some, but can you be ever appear to be too slow, clumsy, uncoordinated, etc...?

It is easy for a cardman to become wrapped up in speed and finesse, especially after YEARS of practice and handling. You have to ask yourself, however, what will the dupes tolerate? Does handling the cards like this imply things in the minds of the victims that I simply don't want implicated?

It all boils down to: don't be noticed. Shuffling like that in certain games is antithetical to this cardinal rule.

Could he dumb it down? You betcha. Look at what he has accomplished. If he needed to, he could adapt. He's "got the hands" for it.

His card work is superb (amongst the very best for what it is), and it's not only that. This is a guy that runs with people that KNOW.

He talks funny, though.

CC
Message: Posted by: reasons14 (Dec 8, 2007 02:31AM)
I just thought it didn't really need to be brought up. I thought the post was almost in the context of "yeah that's good but it's not always going to fly"

I have had the situation you talk of happen to me on occasion as well. You bring up some good points; Most of them being things people who have moved in a game have already thought of
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Dec 8, 2007 03:32AM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-07 09:07, h2o wrote:
Just found this video on youtube, the guy is 23 years old, but he's already quite good at shuffling cards...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvxoMgT5ZAg

His second deal is really amazing, and his dices moves are...well, just have look :)
[/quote]

deja vu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45lnCEayt0w


Happy Holidays To All

Doc
Message: Posted by: MagicKim (Dec 8, 2007 04:09AM)
Hehe definitely deju vu :) Great work, thanks for the video doc.

Kim
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Dec 8, 2007 04:47AM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-08 04:32, Unknown419 wrote:
[quote]
On 2007-12-07 09:07, h2o wrote:
Just found this video on youtube, the guy is 23 years old, but he's already quite good at shuffling cards...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvxoMgT5ZAg

His second deal is really amazing, and his dices moves are...well, just have look :)
[/quote]

deja vu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45lnCEayt0w


Happy Holidays To All

Doc
[/quote]

I learned most of those moves from Stevie when I was 15 or so. Still not right to be putting that stuff up without their permission though, Doc. But we've danced to this tune before--at the end of the day, you're going to do what you want.

Anyways, while I never was going to advertise that clip here, I'm glad people enjoyed it.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Dec 8, 2007 04:56AM)
You're pretty good, keep up the good work and even though I saw it before, I enjoyed it too.

Doc

P.S. Dice that are still on the table must remain still even when switched; yours bounced.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Dec 8, 2007 05:13AM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-08 05:56, Unknown419 wrote:
P.S. Dice that are still on the table must remain still even when switched; yours bounced.
[/quote]

For sure. That switch looks better with $1,000 rather than $4, too.
Message: Posted by: Paul H (Dec 8, 2007 10:58AM)
Hi Mr Z,

That was excellent. I am in awe. I particularly liked the casual, fast, 'sort of dirty' way the cards are handled, false dealt, switched out etc with no hesitation or stall. I also noticed you move your thumb when second dealing which is a method Scarne is noted for. And as for your stud seconds, well....please don't tell me you are just 23 years old!!!!

All the best,

Paul H
Message: Posted by: KingStardog (Dec 8, 2007 12:48PM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-08 00:03, reasons14 wrote:
Yall say its to fast to fly in some games. What makes you think he can't do it slow and smooth as well?
[/quote]

Its not that there is anything wrong with that work at all. But, the speed and mannerisms it was presented with are wrong for bigger games. If more than 5k is floating ,most of the folks in a private game are willing to defend its integrity. even that air shuffle would go if it was done as if it was a newly learned flourish. Everyone would smile and enjoy. Without tuning and dumbing down, that work will draw a click and it won't be no camera. And be certain everyone will apologize after your pockets are empty and you turn up clean. A couple of the diaries I have go into graphic descriptions of shake downs and I have seen ribbon spreads erupt right in the middle of a deal more than once so be aware. Be informed and avoid what might look funny evn if it only does to one person.
Message: Posted by: silverking (Dec 8, 2007 01:17PM)
The stud seconds were unreal Z, really pretty......nice hands on all of it actually, and great to watch.
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Dec 8, 2007 02:12PM)
Doc,

You disappoint me.

J
Message: Posted by: card cheat (Dec 8, 2007 02:22PM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-08 13:48, KingStardog wrote:
Its not that there is anything wrong with that work at all. But, the speed and mannerisms it was presented with are wrong for bigger games. If more than 5k is floating ,most of the folks in a private game are willing to defend its integrity. even that air shuffle would go if it was done as if it was a newly learned flourish. Everyone would smile and enjoy. Without tuning and dumbing down, that work will draw a click and it won't be no camera. And be certain everyone will apologize after your pockets are empty and you turn up clean. A couple of the diaries I have go into graphic descriptions of shake downs and I have seen ribbon spreads erupt right in the middle of a deal more than once so be aware. Be informed and avoid what might look funny evn if it only does to one person.
[/quote]

PERFECT.

There aren't many people out there that I would enjoy sitting down and chatting with.

This guy is one of them.

CC
Message: Posted by: Paul H (Dec 8, 2007 03:54PM)
Hi CC,

I think it very much depends what kind of criteria you bring to bear when evaluating a video of this kind. In viewing Mr Z's work, my own primary concern is with the level, style and quality of skill he is exibiting. For me its about gaining insights and inspiration for furthering my own card handling. This is different from looking at such work and applying the conditions needed to hustle at the card table. I think many of us who follow the gambling subforum know that any kind of theatricality and show of skill would be undesirable to say the least. I've no doubt that someone like Mr Z would be more than capable of toning it all down in the right situation. This dilemma reminds me of the film with Paul Newman called 'The Hustler' On one occassion he loses his cool, blows his cover by becoming expert and has his thumbs broken.

Regards,

Paul H
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Dec 8, 2007 03:56PM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-08 13:48, KingStardog wrote:
[quote]
On 2007-12-08 00:03, reasons14 wrote:
Yall say its to fast to fly in some games. What makes you think he can't do it slow and smooth as well?
[/quote]

Its not that there is anything wrong with that work at all. But, the speed and mannerisms it was presented with are wrong for bigger games.
[/quote]

Well I don't play in private poker games for one, so I think a lot of that is moot. At any rate, I'm curious as to your definition of "bigger games." I know a legendary hustler who moved in some gigantic casino poker games back in the old days of Vegas, who's done the Gardena scene and also worked as a center-dealer for big private games, featuring all your world champ poker players. While he's not quite as fast as me his skill is pretty apparent, and as he likes to say, "The dealer's supposed to know how to shuffle."

But this issue on speed is always an interesting discussion--I've been told I'm "too fast" since I first picked up a deck of cards, although not by the ones that count... There certainly is a time and place to slow down on certain things, although it has nothing to do with trying to look inconspicuous--rather it's to make sure you don't **** up and make an expensive mistake!

Context is everything of course. I'm in and around the casino business, thus I think my "style" if you will is appropriate for it. It doesn't get much "bigger" than having over $1,000,000 in your rack, with cameras all around and personnel trained to look for that sort of thing. I think most would agree trying to look like a lump in this situation is the exact opposite of what you'd want. Also, for the sake of pure demonstration, especially on camera, I think it's the way to go if you can swing it.

My .02.
Message: Posted by: MagicKim (Dec 8, 2007 04:08PM)
I think about all of you have valid points and I can't really come up with something valuble to add. Great work Z. I am really impressed by those seconds.

Kim
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Dec 8, 2007 04:29PM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-08 15:12, JasonEngland wrote:
Doc,

You disappoint me.

J
[/quote]

I don't know why because that was Mr. Z. Some people just know too much.


Doc
Message: Posted by: tommy (Dec 8, 2007 05:58PM)
You see the upside down faro riffle, well there is two casino dealers, I know personally, that do that in cash casino games. The one dealer also does, I am not sure what the are called but lets call them, perfect water fall faros. To my knowledge neither the casino or a player has ever said anything to them about it surprisingly.
Message: Posted by: card cheat (Dec 8, 2007 06:51PM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-08 16:54, Paul H wrote:
This is different from looking at such work and applying the conditions needed to hustle at the card table.[/quote]

Well, I guess that is the first criteria by which I judge gambling sleights.

[quote]
On 2007-12-08 16:54, Paul H wrote:
I've no doubt that someone like Mr Z would be more than capable of toning it all down in the right situation.
[/quote]

I believe that I said that. If I didn't, I sure as heck meant to.

Z makes a couple of good points. For the record, I give him that.

CC
Message: Posted by: KingStardog (Dec 8, 2007 07:58PM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-08 16:56, Mr. Z wrote:

Context is everything of course. I'm in and around the casino business, thus I think my "style" if you will is appropriate for it. It doesn't get much "bigger" than having over $1,000,000 in your rack, with cameras all around and personnel trained to look for that sort of thing. I think most would agree trying to look like a lump in this situation is the exact opposite of what you'd want. Also, for the sake of pure demonstration, especially on camera, I think it's the way to go if you can swing it.

My .02.
[/quote]

Kewl, my Grandfather's construction company built most of old Vegas. Our family tree sprouted grew from there. Still have plenty of family there in management. May be you can elaborate as to your standing. Pm would be fine.
Message: Posted by: KingStardog (Dec 8, 2007 09:35PM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-08 15:22, card cheat wrote:
[quote]
On 2007-12-08 13:48, KingStardog wrote:
Its not that there is anything wrong with that work at all. But, the speed and mannerisms it was presented with are wrong for bigger games. If more than 5k is floating ,most of the folks in a private game are willing to defend its integrity. even that air shuffle would go if it was done as if it was a newly learned flourish. Everyone would smile and enjoy. Without tuning and dumbing down, that work will draw a click and it won't be no camera. And be certain everyone will apologize after your pockets are empty and you turn up clean. A couple of the diaries I have go into graphic descriptions of shake downs and I have seen ribbon spreads erupt right in the middle of a deal more than once so be aware. Be informed and avoid what might look funny evn if it only does to one person.
[/quote]

PERFECT.

There aren't many people out there that I would enjoy sitting down and chatting with.

This guy is one of them.

CC
[/quote]

I would most certainly want to sit in with Gaffed,from the scoundrels forum, and ask all the questions I have at this age and record his answers and wisdom to save for the future. I regard myself as one who is old enough to know what questions to ask. He can answer them, and I hope he would while he is able to do so. A small round table with folks who actually can ask those questions, would be gold.
Message: Posted by: ronfour (Dec 8, 2007 10:53PM)
Who is gaffed?
Message: Posted by: tommy (Dec 9, 2007 07:13AM)
Three wrongs do not make a right: CC naming Z = Wrong. Doc putting up video of others without asking them = wrong. Jason naming Rod and Steve = Wrong. Total of Three wrongs.

Does that make any sense? I don’t know but that’s how I see it.

I am not often wrong but I am right again. :)
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Dec 9, 2007 08:20AM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-09 08:13, tommy wrote:
Three wrongs do not make a right: CC naming Z = Wrong. Doc putting up video of others without asking them = wrong. Jason naming Rod and Steve = Wrong. Total of Three wrongs.

Does that make any sense? I don’t know but that’s how I see it.

I am not often wrong but I am right again. :)
[/quote]

Tommy thank you very much, I totally agree with you. I'm glad we have someone here that has some sense.

Thank God for Tommy


Respectfully,

Doc
Message: Posted by: silverking (Dec 9, 2007 11:49AM)
"Z" doesn't actually say in this thead that it wasn't him.....or am I missing something?

Jason says it, but Z doesn't.

So Doc posts a video of Steve, but says it's Z. Then a bunch of guys (including me) give Z kudos for his excellent stud second and others.
Then Z comes on and basically says "thanks guys" and that he learned it all from Steve.
Then Jason says it wasn't Z, but that it was Steve.

This definitely makes for confusion.

If Z wasn't in the video, why did he say "thanks guys?"...........but more importantly, will Doc marry Wilma, will Jason take the new job, will Silverking move up to foreman on the ditch digging crew, will Tommy move to America to find fame and fortune...........tune in next week to find out, same time, same channel.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Dec 9, 2007 12:06PM)
Silverking there were two videos, one that someone put up of the real Mr. Z doing excellent work and the other I put up of Steve saying that it was Mr. Z but it wasn't because I was told by you know who not to use certain peoples names and I didn't but he was doing the exact same moves as Mr. Z; this is why I called it deja vu.

Most of the people at this forum thought that the other footage was of Mr. Z as well until someone told everybody that it was actually Steve and Rod in my footage.

Conclusion: When Mr. Z said thanks guys...it was because of the well said compliments of his video.


Take Care

Doc
Message: Posted by: silverking (Dec 9, 2007 12:16PM)
Got it...thanks Doc.
I didn't flash on the fact there was two different videos.

(Mr. Z, it WAS your video I was watching, so it WAS your stud second I found amazing)
Message: Posted by: Pavloter (Dec 9, 2007 01:42PM)
Mr. Z great video, best stud seconds I ever seen, really really well done. What to do with Doc posting a video, I cannot judge was it wright or wrong, all I can say it is excellent video. Thanks for sharing.
Message: Posted by: magician8 (Dec 9, 2007 02:27PM)
The moves were excellent and I really enjoyed the clip.
Doc, you are the only one who knows if you were or were not allowed to show the video.
Jason England, you are blessed to be able to session and talk with these guys but as far as I go, I learn a lot from these videos and I'm glad Doc posts them, if somebody has to tell Doc that he's wrong it's not you but the people who appear in the videos.

Just the way I see it,

Magician8
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Dec 9, 2007 03:22PM)
Mr. England,

could you please stop policing this forum? Most of us are here because Doc is here and because of the knowledge he shares. If you want to preach ethics, you are in the wrong place. Give it a rest and have the courtesy to leave Doc and the rest of us alone.
Message: Posted by: Mcdermott (Dec 9, 2007 03:37PM)
Amazing moves Z. Wish I was as lucky to have had as great a teacher , and such a devotion to practice.
As for Doc and the rest....I can't really comment because it isn't my place, but some of you need to chill out. Doc posts a 2 minute video and you go crazy , I doubt anyone learned anything amazing from it , some probably didn't even make the connection between people. Doc looks like he needs to be more carefull in future though.

take care.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Dec 9, 2007 04:50PM)
For those of you who spoke your mind freely for or against me I still thank you for writing. I'm not trying to reveal the secrets that was given to me and I made no agreement with anyone regarding my footage; it's a gambler's code that I'm honoring and I still haven't given up their secrets as they haven't given up mine. All whom I have footage of know this for a fact and this is why no one is bothering me except Jason, The only videos that I taught anything from were mine; the things that I made up.

Readers you know what's ironic about all of this and I'm going on record to date and saying it...The same people who he said won't ever tell me anything again is the same one's who told me not to show him the teaching footage of these moves because he wasn't a gambler. Ouch...

My question to ya'll is if I'm wrong, why did they teach Mr. Z and not Jason? Why is it that Mr. Z's skillz is far superior to Jason's? Why is it that I have the Holy Grail and not Jaaaaaaaassssssooooooonnnnnn?

I'm out of here (hittin' the road)


Signed

Doc Holiday
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Dec 9, 2007 05:17PM)
Well it's sad to see this thread taking such a nasty turn. Just thought I'd address a few things.

Obviously, the video Doc posted isn't of me--I never claimed that it was. Yes, most of that was the same stuff I did in my video clip.

I've stated my position in the past about Doc posting these videos of these guys. I don't think it's right to be putting this stuff out there without their permission. Personally, my issue has more to do with the fact that given Steve's current circumstances, I think it's quite disrespectful and insensitive. He just doesn't need this right now. I guess Doc's rationale is that since he shot it it's his and he can do what he wants with it. I disagree and side with Jason, but at the end of the day we can't control what Doc does.

Don't be hard on Jason, he's just looking out for his friends, and rightly so. These accusations of him trying to keep "the good stuff" under wraps for his own benefit are really ironic--without going into details, there are a number of projects in the works with Steve that will have you guys jumping for joy if they see the light of day.

As far as CC "naming me," I don't have an issue with it. While I have always sought to keep a low profile around here, the fact is there have been countless "clues" if you will, and the funny thing is that over the years I've had a number of clips on Youtube yet no one stumbled across them till now. As I said previously, I have no intention to promote or advertise my stuff here, the only reason I occasionally have a video up is to share with some long-distance friends and acquaintances. But, should anyone see it, it is a public video and you can certainly share/discuss/whatever about it--it was my choice to put it up, so no worries. I'm glad people seem to have enjoyed it.

On a lighter note, I'm surprised no one has picked up on some of the background voices and people in my video, or where the clip was filmed specifically--mostly magic names though so I can understand, given this forum. I'll leave that to the lot of you though. Jason is standing next to me in the beginning of the vid and the one telling me to "keep it down." :)

Best,

Z
Message: Posted by: Ben Train (Dec 9, 2007 06:36PM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-09 18:17, Mr. Z wrote:

On a lighter note, I'm surprised no one has picked up on some of the background voices and people in my video, or where the clip was filmed specifically--mostly magic names though so I can understand, given this forum. I'll leave that to the lot of you though. Jason is standing next to me in the beginning of the vid and the one telling me to "keep it down." :)

Best,

Z
[/quote]

I know where it was filmed, and who's voices are in the background...

;)

Mr. Z, it was as good as Shane raved it was. I really appreciate having the chance to see it. I would love to ask you something, privately, about something you did during the shuffle, if that's ok.

All the best,
Train
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Dec 9, 2007 06:41PM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-09 19:36, BenTrain (Nordatrax) wrote:
[quote]
On 2007-12-09 18:17, Mr. Z wrote:

On a lighter note, I'm surprised no one has picked up on some of the background voices and people in my video, or where the clip was filmed specifically--mostly magic names though so I can understand, given this forum. I'll leave that to the lot of you though. Jason is standing next to me in the beginning of the vid and the one telling me to "keep it down." :)

Best,

Z
[/quote]

I know where it was filmed, and who's voices are in the background...

;)

Mr. Z, it was as good as Shane raved it was. I really appreciate having the chance to see it. I would love to ask you something, privately, about something you did during the shuffle, if that's ok.

All the best,
Train
[/quote]

For sure, lemme know.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Dec 9, 2007 08:43PM)
I hate these GAME PROTECTION GUYS. Look at Forte there: Shows nothing to Doc that Doc doesn’t already know. I bet he learnt something from Doc though so he could use it to PROTECT more games.

I am confident Doc would agree when he really thinks about it all.

These GAME PROTECTION guys probably never teach anything but GAME PROTECTION as it is probably something to do with the law. They just let cheats think they are going to learn something and some go away thinking they have learnt but they have not really. They never actually teach anything on their GAME PROTECTION publications you will notice.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Dec 9, 2007 09:24PM)
If I had footage of work actually being put down on a game I would burn it. I mean really, why would you want to keep evidence like that? What do you want to do with it: Star on Americas dumbest crooks or what? :)
Message: Posted by: kcg5 (Dec 9, 2007 11:22PM)
In my opinion, which matters not, if someone is asked not to show something-they should not. Its just that simple, however I don't know any of the "main" players here. This thread has gone from an interesting topic into yet another war like we have had many times before. I have been suprised at the level of hate that has been written by people I wouldnt have expected it from. All the name calling and such has only lowered my respect for certain members in this forum.

While it is true that many of us come here to read and learn from others, certainly DOC, it seems that here, he is in the wrong. I don't wish to get on his bad side, but I have noticed that he has become the "goto" guy on this forum. Might that postition have gone to his head? just a question. (hope you still let me view the videos, doc. its just my opinion...)

As was alluded to earlier, steve appears to be in an tough spot now, so he might be best left out of this.

oh and by the way, GREAT work mr.z


regards, kevin
Message: Posted by: tommy (Dec 10, 2007 01:20AM)
If all we cheats are happy to film ourselves in the act, then what on earth will they do with all them Eye in Sky CCTV’s as they will all become redundant.
Message: Posted by: Mcdermott (Dec 10, 2007 01:45AM)
One day people like Doc are going to pack up and move out of places like here , mainly due to **** like this, and stop telling anything at all. Then you'll be sorry.

McDermott.
Message: Posted by: ASW (Dec 10, 2007 03:09AM)
No. You're the one who'll be sorry. No more freebies.
Message: Posted by: card cheat (Dec 10, 2007 07:18AM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-10 02:45, Mcdermott wrote:
One day people like Doc are going to pack up and move out of places...and stop telling anything at all.
[/quote]

What exactly DOES he tell? I don't remember ever reading anything mind-bending in any of his posts.

Perhaps I skipped a post or two somewhere along the way?

And, by the way, DOC will never leave this place.

He needs the attention.

CC
Message: Posted by: splice (Dec 10, 2007 08:17AM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-10 08:18, card cheat wrote:

What exactly DOES he tell? I don't remember ever reading anything mind-bending in any of his posts.

Perhaps I skipped a post or two somewhere along the way?

[/quote]

If you haven't learned anything good from Doc that speaks more of who's doing the reading than who's doing the writing.

I hope never Doc never leaves this place, although I certainly would understand if he did. He's good to many, even if he sometimes is the subject of controversy.
Message: Posted by: silverking (Dec 10, 2007 11:40AM)
I'd suggest that much of this discussion may be a personal discussion between Jason, Doc, and Z......maybe a couple more folks.

If other posters avoid getting too involved, and fanning flames that really aren't theirs to fan, the forum will likely survive with its present cast of characters intact.

Talking about posting videos and "ethics" is fine....but this really isn't about ethics, it's about trust. That makes it difficult for outsiders to contribute anything of real value, myself included (although this post is just an attempt to chill things down a bit for my own reading enjoyment).

IMHO, much of the conversation is best left to those personally involved in it.

Maybe a hiatus on the rhetoric, with the serious personal stuff moved to PM's.

...............and then back to cards and dice.

Just an idea.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Dec 10, 2007 11:44AM)
Correct Silver.

The road to hell is paved with good intention. The “real issue” is a private matter and my advice is to use Private Messages, for the sake of all interested parties.
Message: Posted by: stoneunhinged (Dec 10, 2007 12:18PM)
Silver and Tommy, I suppose you're both right. But for me and my purposes, I learn more from these fights than anything else.

Oh, and Mr. Z.: BEAUTIFUL work!
Message: Posted by: tommy (Dec 10, 2007 12:42PM)
:) The "real issue" is in the case.
Message: Posted by: card cheat (Dec 10, 2007 02:41PM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-10 12:40, silverking wrote:
I'd suggest that much of this discussion may be a personal discussion between Jason, Doc, and Z......maybe a couple more folks.

If other posters avoid getting too involved, and fanning flames that really aren't theirs to fan, the forum will likely survive with its present cast of characters intact.
[/quote]

When you're right, you're right.

If I ever took a leave of absence from from posting in this forum, this kind of mudslinging would be why. I am embarassed that I became wrapped up in it, and apologize for doing so.

Not for my stance on the matter, however. I still believe it is wrong to be told, or given, anything in confidence and subsequently dole it out sans permission from the donator. I guess I learned a while back that, in this game, you get much farther if you're able to be trusted by those that can help you.

I also considered that this might not be the best time for these things to be shared.

But, Silver's right; it's not my battle. In retrospect, what I should've done is voiced my opinion that it is wrong to do and then got out of it. As is here for all to see, it escalated and got out of hand. I had a part in that, and disapprove of some of my actions and statements issued.

I stuck up for Jason not because he needs me to, but because I believe that he is right. I believe very strongly in being tight-lipped. This is why most people here feel that I don't know anything.

I have no hard feelings to anyone here, even though that might be hard to believe based on what I have said in this thread and others. However, right is right and wrong is wrong. That applies to all of us universally, and we are all responsible for our own actions and fault in the end.

As also recommended by Silver, I hope that we can get back to what should matter most to us all. Cards and dice. I hope it's more one than the other, though.

Perhaps we should petition that the administrators of this site create a forum called "The Boxing Ring", in which all debates, arguments or down-right hissy fits of this sort could be confined.

Hopefully, I can regain respect of those that claim to have lost it for me. At the end of the day though, I still get money.

CC
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Dec 10, 2007 05:12PM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-10 12:40, silverking wrote:
I'd suggest that much of this discussion may be a personal discussion between Jason, Doc, and Z......maybe a couple more folks.

If other posters avoid getting too involved, and fanning flames that really aren't theirs to fan, the forum will likely survive with its present cast of characters intact.

Talking about posting videos and "ethics" is fine....but this really isn't about ethics, it's about trust. That makes it difficult for outsiders to contribute anything of real value, myself included (although this post is just an attempt to chill things down a bit for my own reading enjoyment).

IMHO, much of the conversation is best left to those personally involved in it.

Maybe a hiatus on the rhetoric, with the serious personal stuff moved to PM's.

...............and then back to cards and dice.

Just an idea.
[/quote]

Well said.
Message: Posted by: onbekende020 (Dec 10, 2007 06:07PM)
I really liked the video, the speed/way you handle the cards is very nice! Still I would like to see the same moves done wit borderd cards...

Was that a strike or push-of second deal?

Looking foward to see more of your skills....

USM
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Dec 10, 2007 06:33PM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-10 19:07, USM#80 wrote:

Was that a strike or push-of second deal?

[/quote]

The first was a strike. The stud deal is a pushoff.
Message: Posted by: Ben Train (Dec 10, 2007 06:34PM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-10 19:33, Mr. Z wrote:
[quote]
On 2007-12-10 19:07, USM#80 wrote:

Was that a strike or push-of second deal?

[/quote]

The first was a strike. The stud deal is a pushoff.
[/quote]

The stud was a push-off? I was up all night practicing!
Message: Posted by: KingStardog (Dec 10, 2007 06:39PM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-08 20:58, KingStardog wrote:
[quote]
On 2007-12-08 16:56, Mr. Z wrote:

Context is everything of course. I'm in and around the casino business, thus I think my "style" if you will is appropriate for it. It doesn't get much "bigger" than having over $1,000,000 in your rack, with cameras all around and personnel trained to look for that sort of thing. I think most would agree trying to look like a lump in this situation is the exact opposite of what you'd want. Also, for the sake of pure demonstration, especially on camera, I think it's the way to go if you can swing it.

My .02.
[/quote]

Kewl, my Grandfather's construction company built most of old Vegas. Our family tree sprouted grew from there. Still have plenty of family there in management. May be you can elaborate as to your standing. Pm would be fine.
[/quote]

Still waiting to hear who's rack is holding that 1,000,000.00. I feel I have qualified myself well for the public, and was awaiting a response.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Dec 10, 2007 06:41PM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-10 19:39, KingStardog wrote:
[quote]
On 2007-12-08 20:58, KingStardog wrote:
[quote]
On 2007-12-08 16:56, Mr. Z wrote:

Context is everything of course. I'm in and around the casino business, thus I think my "style" if you will is appropriate for it. It doesn't get much "bigger" than having over $1,000,000 in your rack, with cameras all around and personnel trained to look for that sort of thing. I think most would agree trying to look like a lump in this situation is the exact opposite of what you'd want. Also, for the sake of pure demonstration, especially on camera, I think it's the way to go if you can swing it.

My .02.
[/quote]

Kewl, my Grandfather's construction company built most of old Vegas. Our family tree sprouted grew from there. Still have plenty of family there in management. May be you can elaborate as to your standing. Pm would be fine.
[/quote]

Still waiting to hear who's rack is holding that 1,000,000.00. I feel I have qualified myself well for the public, and was awaiting a response.
[/quote]

Hmm?
Message: Posted by: KingStardog (Dec 10, 2007 06:43PM)
Your in and around the casino business. Please elaborate as to your work.
Message: Posted by: onbekende020 (Dec 10, 2007 06:44PM)
Aight...the strike is freakin invisible, nice!

USM
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Dec 10, 2007 06:45PM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-10 19:43, KingStardog wrote:
Your in and around the casino business. Please elaborate as to your work.
[/quote]

I'm not going to go into that, no offense.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Dec 11, 2007 05:51AM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-11 06:27, Yiannis wrote:
If they don't really want their stuff around, DON'T let ANYONE videotape you!!
[/quote]

Well when you're told "I promise this won't go anywhere..." and then it does, it certainly isn't their fault. There was an obvious violation of trust there.

While it's cute to snicker at the issue of ethics in this type of forum, in the real world outside of the Internet, with living, breathing human beings, you gain that sought-after knowledge through being a stand-up person and earning trust and respect. It's as simple as that. Just trying to leech anything you can get a hold of no matter how may get you points for ambition, but probably isn't going to do much for you anyways, if that's your attitude.
Message: Posted by: stoneunhinged (Dec 11, 2007 07:16AM)
I initially registered here at the Café because I wanted to read more of Doc. I also consider him my friend (in that strange, internet sense of the word) as I do C. Loubard and some other cheats here at the Café. But if you think there is no morality here, no justice, no honor, you are mistaken.

It's easy to forget that. I myself said some insensitive things about Steve Forte when he was arrested. Some people called me on it, and I'm sorry I wrote what I did (fortunately, the thread got deleted, so my comments aren't here anymore). The rules here may not be the same as in the Gospel Magic forum, but there *are* rules, and there is a sense of honor. I also think that Doc would agree.

Jeff
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Dec 11, 2007 08:02AM)
Jeff,

is hypocritical to talk about justice, honor and morality in a sub-forum that its main talk is about how to cheat, hustle, exploit and deceive others by any means necessary.

Maybe you think this place is for "educational purpose", but you forget that Doc is a real life hustler and he puts his knowledge and skills in "good" use to survive. People are here to learn and exchange cheating material, not to debate on morality, violation of trust etc.
Message: Posted by: stoneunhinged (Dec 11, 2007 09:35AM)
I'm not here for "educational purposes", and I have forgotten nothing. Apparently it is you--"People are here to...[snip], not to....[snip]"--who thinks he gets to decide what's right or wrong around here. If you don't like the debate, get out of it, but don't go around thinking someone appointed you the sheriff of the Gambler's Forum.

There is law in the jungle. And the first law may be trust no one. But the second law is, If I trust you...don't break that trust. There is absolutely no hypocrisy involved.
Message: Posted by: card cheat (Dec 11, 2007 09:40AM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-11 09:02, Yiannis wrote:
Maybe you think this place is for "educational purpose", but...

People are here to learn...
[/quote]

Why wouldn't it be classifed as existing for an educational purpose if people come here to learn?

CC
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Dec 11, 2007 10:21AM)
Jeff,

I'm defending Doc's right to do whatever he wants with the material he has traded. Jason is doing the sheriff here by calling out Doc everytime he posts something, that it's in conflict with his interests, on Youtube.

And in the jungle, there is only one law and it's universal. "Only the strong survive".
Message: Posted by: card cheat (Dec 16, 2007 07:59AM)
Yiannis,

I just want to ask you:

If you gave me footage of you performing a move, and asked me not to hand it out, would you like it if I just handed it out?

CC
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Dec 16, 2007 09:04PM)
To Whom This May Concern:

I'm presently on the road hustling so I can't write like I want to, to this forum. Yiannis and any one else who cares to look or listen to what I have to say, you gain knowledge from anywhere you can because what you learn today may save your life tomorrow.

These guys here are not interested in saving your life, they are only interested in themselves. Why do you say that Doc? Which one of them ever told you not to gamble? Which one of them told you that the same fate for the card/dice cheat, is the same for the magician? When you fell (messed up in some way) which one of them picked you up (showed you things) and guided you in the right direction (so you wouldn't be killed while waiting on our Lord) in order to save your life? None.

I'm going on record right here and now for the future readers of this thread and saying that everything that Jason, Mr. Z, ASW, CC says is not totally wrong and then again they are not totally right either. Why? The best lie ever told was mixed with truth "You will NOT surely die" meaning...you will die but you really won't be dead. You will live on as...or be reincarnated as...and the list goes on.

Always pay attention to details and if possible read between the lines. I don't know if this is in the bible or not but there is a wise saying that I once heard that goes like this "Watch as Well as Pray." I don't understand? The same guys who are saying I'm wrong for saying what I say or doing what I do is also looking, learning and copying my videos; so what does that tell you? That they're doing exactly what I just told Yiannis to do; to gain as much knowledge from anywhere you can. They're just doing it in their own sneaky ass-way (dressing up in sheep clothing).

About Me

We all have certain things about us meaning our personality that is embedded in us that makes us who we are that we can't change. The one thing about me that I don't like is someone saying something about me that’s not true. Yes we've all been lied to or on but when someone keep saying that I did something and I know that I didn't do anything wrong and the people who trusted in me start believing them and not me, that's when I get ****ed-off

Jason if you're really Steve, Rod The Hop and Sal's friend as you say you are then you should have told them that even though I've shown footage of them that it was of their hands etc. and not of their faces and I DID NOT EXPOSE ANY CHEATING MOVES THAT THEY HAVE TAUGHT ME.

What Will Break My Agreement With Them?

You Jason England along with some others who I care less about keep claiming that I'm showing the secrets of the moves when in all actuality I'm not; just like a magician who shows a trick but doesn't show the secret is not revealing anything. Example: Dai Vernon shows the middle deal in footage but doesn't reveal the secret. Likewise I showed the same.

You tell your friends, especially Steve that you speak to every week that if YOU (Jason England) keep lying on me, telling them that I am showing the secrets to their moves and I'm not, I will be posting the teaching methods to the moves and then they would really have something to be upset about and it will be because of you that I will; because if I'm going to be branded as a tattletale/low-life, I might as well live up to the name and be the best at it.

To Any One That Has Been At The Magic Café Since I Came...

Jason and others here say that I have posted footage of the secrets of Steve, Sal and Rod The Hop at one time or another and I say I didn't. I did post the naturalness of moves but never the secret or teachings of the moves. Now if any one of them can post footage of me showing any of these guys doing moves and them teaching me their technique, I will no longer post here and their so-called wish of me not telling anything again will be granted.

Put up or shut up, I await the footage.


Respectfully,

Doc
Message: Posted by: card cheat (Dec 16, 2007 09:49PM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-16 22:04, Unknown419 wrote:
The same guys who are saying I'm wrong for saying what I say or doing what I do is also looking, learning and copying my videos
[/quote]

First of all, I have never copied anyone's video clips, that includes anything you have put down. There is nothing in your clips that relates in any way to what I work with, and if it does it's something that I am already aware of.

So, you're right. You don't post "teaching" footage. But, it's still wrong of you to be putting that stuff up when it was given to you in confidence.

I'm a cheat, not a hypocrite.

How 'bout you? If you allowed me to film you and had told you that nobody else would see the footage, would you be happy if I posted any part or portion of it on a website viewed by millions of people anonymously?

CC
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Dec 16, 2007 10:24PM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-16 22:49, card cheat wrote:
[quote]
On 2007-12-16 22:04, wrote:
The same guys who are saying I'm wrong for saying what I say or doing what I do is also looking, learning and copying my videos
[/quote]

First of all, I have never copied anyone's video clips, that includes anything you have put down. There is nothing in your clips that relates in any way to what I work with, and if it does it's something that I am already aware of.

So, you're right. You don't post "teaching" footage. But, it's still wrong of you to be putting that stuff up when it was given to you in confidence.

I'm a cheat, not a hypocrite.

How 'bout you? If you allowed me to film you and had told you that nobody else would see the footage, would you be happy if I posted any part or portion of it on a website viewed by millions of people anonymously?

CC
[/quote]

CC I was speaking in general to whom it applied to but to answer your question, I would not be happy but this WAS NOT MY AGREEMENT THEREFORE THIS DOES NOT APPLY. Readers just like the Devil added one word to God's words changing what He said, CC is doing the same to make himself look right in this incident. Even though CC no nothing of my agreement beside that fact that he wasn't even there nor heard what was said. My agreement was, and I quote "I CAN SHOW WHOM EVER I WANT BUT DON'T SHOW THE TEACHING METHODS OF THE STUFF (especially to the people he told me not to); that was my agreement and I have honored it and my test will show all of you that the Doc is not a hypocrite and has honored his word.

1 down 3 to go.

Respectfully,

Doc
Message: Posted by: tommy (Dec 16, 2007 11:16PM)
I speculate here and say I don’t think Jason would tell you lies, but he might not know what the truth is, and might be just telling you what he has been told. I think the truth is, they *now* do not want these films shown of them in public, because the prosecution might see them, and actually use them to undermine the defence at the forthcoming trail. Hasn’t that possibility occurred to you Doc?
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Dec 16, 2007 11:46PM)
Tommy I respect what you just said and I understand the circumstances you've just mentioned but why are they screaming the names from the roof top if this is true and I'm not saying that it's not? Isn't silence golden in this situation?

Even though this might sound strange to some, I'm positive proof that you have to deal with real cheats in some way or another in order to get information in order to help protect the casinos of which I thought that they knew he was doing but in his own way. He does it for the public by consulting, making videos and writing books and I do it for this forum by guiding them in the right direction so they won't get themselves killed by believing lies told by magicians who want to get or stay ahead.

How can Steve learn and teach the public if he can't get his hands dirty? I'm getting mine dirty to help the members here at this forum and the police here is always on my case even though I'm trying to do right. What I don't understand is that our society have deep-cover operatives for each and everything they do; why not the casinos?

Steve to me was nothing but a deep-cover operative working on his own and no matter what anyone says, his books, videos, knowledge about things and his consulting to many a casinos...proves it.

Signed

Doc Holiday
Message: Posted by: tommy (Dec 17, 2007 12:33AM)
They scream the names because they “think” wrongly the objection is just about you showing a film that you had no permission to show. I believe you did have permission. They believe what they were told though. They therefore see no harm in telling the world who it was. So they “think. But it does not really matter whatever the truth is.
I agree with what you say about Steve having to see cheats but a Jury might not. They might wonder why he is teaching a cheat rather than just observing. Bear in mind juries have not got the brains to get off jury service. It boils down to its best not to show them at least until the case is over. I think but it is up to you. I think they are super paranoid but I would be to if I was in their shoes. That is why I think the whole thread should be deleted. I don’t think any of us should even mention his name for while and find something else to talk about. I think that would be better for all of us. I know he is innocent but these Vipes (prosecutors) are experts at twisting things. I know as I have faced them often enough.
Message: Posted by: Clock (Dec 17, 2007 02:51PM)
I see a lot of sugar coating over a very simple situation. You can justify yourself all day long, but everything boils down to one word.

Respect.

You either have it for S or you don't. Here are the facts.

1. Doc films S.
2. Miscommunication between Doc and S about showing the video.
3. Doc shows S on youtube (justifying that the secrets are not being exposed).
4. Doc finds out that S is not happy about ANY video of him being on the internet.
5. Doc removes video.
6. S is okay.
7. Doc continues to post video of S with more justification.
8. S is not okay.

You can fill in the gaps all day long, but these are the facts as I see them. If S was my friend, I'd say... "Sorry about the misunderstanding, won't happen again." I would say this out of respect for him. But I just want to say this...

Doc,

I understand that...

You are a grown man.
You are playing by the rules that we originally stated.
You can post the videos on youtube without thier permission.
You don't care what S thinks of you.

...but I ask you kindly that instead of going around in circles that we try moving forward by either...

A. Stop posting videos of S all together.
B. Ask S if you can share the videos privatley with close friends.

You don't HAVE to do either A or B...but I just ask if you may consider them. If you choose to do neither, then Jason has every right to post his concerns about a friend just as much as you have the right to post video. I don't want to talk about you not naming the person as S, or Jason publicly naming S, etc.. These just cloud the basic issue and the orginal point...

S does not like the videos publicy shown (both teaching or demonstrating)

At the end of the day, you can do what you want. I am not here to make enemies or preach how what you are doing is wrong. I simply have an opinion, take it or leave it...

The echoe in here is annoying and childish (I apologize to all for adding to it!).


Best,

Grant
Message: Posted by: card cheat (Dec 17, 2007 04:02PM)
Well said, Grant.

CC
Message: Posted by: tommy (Dec 17, 2007 04:03PM)
The only person that knows the facts, who is here, is Doc.
Message: Posted by: Clock (Dec 17, 2007 04:39PM)
Tommy,

You are right, I should not have used the words 'facts' but rather 'general observations'.

Best,

Grant
Message: Posted by: tommy (Dec 17, 2007 05:12PM)
Well what do you know?
Message: Posted by: silverking (Dec 17, 2007 05:53PM)
It seems to me that everybody (regardless of "sides") who repeatedly posts ONE specific name over and over again isn't doing him any favors until his present troubles are over and done with.

It doesn't matter which side you're on!

A court could certainly reference anonymous posts made here........BUT....not everybody here is anonymous, which makes what SOME write here far more prone to be used no differently than a written paper letter would be.

I don't want to debate the legality of using material from an internet forum in a court of law, but really.....why take the chance?

Worth thinking about?........probably.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Dec 17, 2007 06:47PM)
It would be astonishing if they discovered anything of substance here. I have been looking for years and found nothing.

:)
Message: Posted by: silverking (Dec 17, 2007 07:26PM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-17 19:47, tommy wrote:
It would be astonishing if they discovered anything of substance here. I have been looking for years and found nothing.

:)
[/quote]
The coffee I had in my mouth is now on my shirt Tommy, thanks.