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Topic: Technique Master by Ichiro Araki
Message: Posted by: Kjellstrom (Jan 9, 2008 04:15PM)
Check out video trailer looks interesting!

http://www.magicmakersinc.com/dvds/techniquemaster.html
Message: Posted by: Markymark (Jan 9, 2008 05:20PM)
Looks good.If they withdrew the knock offs I'd buy it!
Message: Posted by: wpt1031 (Jan 9, 2008 09:14PM)
Indeed it does look good. And Ben Salinas translates for Mr. Araki on this DVD.
Message: Posted by: Donny Orbit (Jan 9, 2008 09:30PM)
Hopefully they give proper crediting, the Triumph is almost exactly like John Bannon's last man standing. The coin routine looks like a move published by Larry Jennings in his book, as well as the load move made popular by Jay Sankey based off of a L'Homme de la Masque move.
Message: Posted by: Ben Train (Jan 9, 2008 11:47PM)
First, seriously, you expect credits? It's MAGIC MAKERS. They have a reputation to uphold, and money says they won't disappoint.

Second, the video looked brutal. Unmotivated and convoluted handlings, and tired plots. This guy is "unquestionably one of the greatest card workers the world has known"? Really? I don't know about that...

Third, I didn't realize that the best magic Japan had to offer was the Jenning's handling of Goodwin's stand-up triumph (except, with a much much worse set-up procedure). Or some suspect looking copper, silver, brass. Etc.

Feel free to support magic makers. I, personally, wouldn't buy anything of theirs- even if it was the Vernon/Marlo sessions. But you are free to waste your cash anyway you see fit.
Message: Posted by: msc455magic (Jan 10, 2008 04:38AM)
I agree that nothing was impressive about the video either. The demo just looked like another one of those DVD's that teaches variations, and mostly inferior, of the existing originals. Of course, it is not fair for me to judge the video when I don't have it, but that is definitely what it seems like to me after watching the demo.

For "real" magic of Japan, I would recommend picking up "New Magic of Japan" and "Five Times Five: Japan" instead. Another great(!!!) video focusing on Japanese magic is "Magic of Japan" released by Steven's Magic Emporium.

My 2 NT's,
Charles
Message: Posted by: Donny Orbit (Jan 10, 2008 05:53AM)
Charles and Ben have both pointed out the potential flaws with this release. I agree with Charles, either buy 5 times 5 Japan or wait for Kaufman to release the new book of Japanese magic he is working on.

Donny
Message: Posted by: Andy the cardician (Jan 12, 2008 07:49AM)
Thanks for the heads up
Message: Posted by: Steven Leung (Jan 14, 2008 08:52PM)
The video demo not even come close to my little magic shop demonstrator's daily practice...
Message: Posted by: Review King (Jan 14, 2008 09:20PM)
The card work on the demo is as crappy as mine.

Magic Makers, because of their reputation, is quite limited in who they can get to do DVD's for them, so....don't expect much.
Message: Posted by: Medifro (Jan 14, 2008 10:45PM)
I thought Goodwin/Jennings Triumph involved more playing with the deck ( I read it once from Trapdoor magazine ), in any case,

I'm actually intrested, as I like seeing how people think when it comes to card magic and seeing an uknown name ( to my memory at least ) triggers my sensors. Does this fellow has any reputation in Japan ( msc455magic perhaps can answer this? )

~ Feras
Message: Posted by: Review King (Jan 14, 2008 11:31PM)
[quote]
On 2008-01-14 23:45, Medifro wrote:
.... I like seeing how people think when it comes to card magic and seeing an uknown name ( to my memory at least ) triggers my sensors. Does this fellow has any reputation in Japan ( msc455magic perhaps can answer this? )

~ Feras
[/quote]

Yes, he's known for his expertise in sushi knife cleaning. That was good enough for Magic Makers to put him on a magic DVD.
:rotf:
Message: Posted by: Magiguy (Jan 14, 2008 11:40PM)
If you want a superb video on Japanese magic there is a copy of the out of print Steven's video in the "Let's Make Magic Deal" section right now at a very fair price from a very trustworthy seller. I'm amazed that it hasn't been snatched up yet. Additionally, L&L will be releasing a new Dr. Sawa DVD set sometime this year (hopefully in the not-too-distant future).

If you want info regarding Ichiro Araki I would suggest that Hideo Kato would be the man to ask. Personally, as a collector of Japanese magic, I have found nothing from him prior to this.
Message: Posted by: Magiguy (Jan 15, 2008 12:11AM)
...other than the fact that he is supposedly a well known singer/actor in Japan, and co-hosts a magic website [url=http://www.w0o0w.com/prialamagic/]HERE[/url].

More info [url=http://72.14.203.104/translate_c?hl=en&u=http://www.aivideo.co.jp/left/detail/pages/363.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://www.aivideo.co.jp/%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG]HERE[/url]
Message: Posted by: msc455magic (Jan 17, 2008 12:01AM)
[quote]
On 2008-01-15 00:40, Magiguy wrote:
Personally, as a collector of Japanese magic, I have found nothing from him prior to this.
[/quote]
Agreed. As I said, I think most people here would benefit more from Kaufman's books on Japanese magic.

Best,
Charles
Message: Posted by: Paul (Jan 19, 2008 09:33AM)
[quote]
On 2008-01-09 22:30, Donny Orbit wrote:
Hopefully they give proper crediting, the Triumph is almost exactly like John Bannon's last man standing. The coin routine looks like a move published by Larry Jennings in his book, as well as the load move made popular by Jay Sankey based off of a L'Homme de la Masque move.
[/quote]

Yes, I thought the Triumph on the clip looked a little like Last Man Standing with the Goodwin display, but I'd not pass judgement from a small clip like this and would like a proper review from anyone that's seen this DVD completely. Some of the stuff that comes out of Japan is very interesting (as in the mentioned books)so it's unfair to trash the guy because he's not known here, or without seeing the full product.

As suggested, Hideo might know more of this fellow's reputation in Japan. I thought the DVD might be of interest.

Paul.
Message: Posted by: Review King (Jan 19, 2008 12:32PM)
[quote]
On 2008-01-19 10:33, Paul wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-01-09 22:30, Donny Orbit wrote:
Hopefully they give proper crediting, the Triumph is almost exactly like John Bannon's last man standing. The coin routine looks like a move published by Larry Jennings in his book, as well as the load move made popular by Jay Sankey based off of a L'Homme de la Masque move.
[/quote]

Yes, I thought the Triumph on the clip looked a little like Last Man Standing with the Goodwin display, but I'd not pass judgement from a small clip like this and would like a proper review from anyone that's seen this DVD completely. Some of the stuff that comes out of Japan is very interesting (as in the mentioned books)so it's unfair to trash the guy because he's not known here, or without seeing the full product.

As suggested, Hideo might know more of this fellow's reputation in Japan. I thought the DVD might be of interest.

Paul.
[/quote]

Paul, remember it's a Magic Makers product. You know how they are. You don't support Magic Makers, do you? I mean, you'd never buy or, God Forbid, work for them, right?
Message: Posted by: Paul (Jan 19, 2008 03:41PM)
Re: "Paul, remember it's a Magic Makers product. You know how they are. You don't support Magic Makers, do you? I mean, you'd never buy or, God Forbid, work for them, right?"

I did! But I guess you knew that? Right? My DVD's were produced by this company. As were the Wesley James DVD's and the Royal Road DVD's, the card splitting DVD, which I didn't think were bad at all. Each item should be judged on its own merit.

Do I agree with everything they do? No I don't (nor plenty of other dealers).When I was more active as a dealer, I never sold anything I thought was suspect. Do an achive search and you'll even find a post from me pointing out "The Dice Through Mirror" was pirated. Although MM weren't the first to take it, I think they pirated a pirate copy from India. In fact, in dealing I sought out original and different material and had a far smaller range than most. But I discovered you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

Now, had YOU approached me to do a DVD project, and offered me a reasonable sum, I would have done it, but you didn't. And no-one else did either, but MM asked and so I did it. Their business dealings with me were fair and above board and they did not screw me over in any way.

Certainly, the average magic buyer should be more knowledeable and be aware of what is and what isn't a copy, or who actually owns the rights to what (which is not always who you think - Paul Fox cups for example, or the Art of Close Up books or a zillion intant downloads)then make their decisions accordingly. The truth is, the biggest buyers are the newcomers to magic and children, who would be better advised buying books, rather than being brainwashed by all the 'hype' of new and recycled releases week in and week out.

I don't buy many DVD's (preferring books personally). I thought this one might be interesting despite who produced it. I judge an item on its own merit. My last good DVD buy was Aldo's packet trick DVD produced by Meir Yedid. But, let's not get off topic...

Paul.
P.S. If anyone else wants to do a different DVD project with me, make me a good offer!
Message: Posted by: Majestic12 (Jan 19, 2008 06:17PM)
Well said Paul. I think people can become real jerks on here sometimes. Now back to the DVD at hand, I believe Mr. Aracki has a few hardcover books out called Technical Coin Magic and Technical Card Magic and is well respected and known in Tokyo.
Message: Posted by: Review King (Jan 20, 2008 10:42AM)
[quote]
On 2008-01-19 16:41, Paul wrote:
Re: "Paul, remember it's a Magic Makers product. You know how they are. You don't support Magic Makers, do you? I mean, you'd never buy or, God Forbid, work for them, right?"

I did! But I guess you knew that? Right?
[/quote]

Paul, I didn't know you did a project with them. I've never seen your DVD on any site for sale or reviewed on the Cafť. I only recently started seeing your posts and very much enjoy reading what you have to say.

Yes, Wesley and 2 of my favorites, Simon Lovel and Randy Wakeman, have done projects with them. I say I wouldn't do a set with them if asked, but that's easy to say when I'm not being asked. They should do one with me, just for the fun of seeing me say how wrong I was about them and having 500 people post what a liar and thief I am. The set wouldn't sell because I stink, but it would be a funny scenario!

I once asked Aldo about working for a company that had no scruples. He said " Chris, I only care that I get paid". I love honesty like that.

Paul, thanks for the response. Your honesty was also refreshing!
Message: Posted by: Steven Leung (Jan 20, 2008 09:29PM)
Dear Chris,

Thanks for your mention about Aldo's long gone DVD project with that company. Well, that's enough said... magic is business after all.

How about we all screw credits / ethics now that might give magic a chance to survivie...
Message: Posted by: Ben Train (Jan 21, 2008 12:04AM)
First, let me state that the few interactions I've had with Mr. Hallas have all been nice, polite, and friendly.

That said-

If a criminal organization offered you cash to be involved with a murder, would you do it? What about money to be a watchman for a robbery- not really "involved", but helps them continue to steal?

I hope the answer would be no. Yet, by jumping in bed with magic makers it's THE SAME THING. They steal, rip of artist, and release crappy, shoddy material.

You video, as are all videos, is "judged on its own merit"- but part of that means taking into consideration who produced it (among others). In this case, purchasing a magic makers product (even one that's legitimate, as yours might well be) still supports theft.

[quote]
On 2008-01-20 11:42, Christopher Kavanagh wrote:
I once asked Aldo about working for a company that had no scruples. He said " Chris, I only care that I get paid". I love honesty like that.

Paul, thanks for the response. Your honesty was also refreshing!
[/quote]

Chris,

You seem like a nice guy, and I've enjoyed many of your posts. But this one is deplorable, and makes me sick.

How can you support such a thing, with such a caviler attitude? If I posted what I really though, this post would be deleted (or worse). Feel free to email me at magic@bentrain.ca and I'll be happy to chat with you more.

I hope you appreciate the honesty.
Ben
Message: Posted by: Review King (Jan 21, 2008 12:36AM)
[quote]
On 2008-01-21 01:04, BenTrain (Nordatrax) wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-01-20 11:42, Christopher Kavanagh wrote:
I once asked Aldo about working for a company that had no scruples. He said " Chris, I only care that I get paid". I love honesty like that.

Paul, thanks for the response. Your honesty was also refreshing!
[/quote]

Chris,

You seem like a nice guy, and I've enjoyed many of your posts. But this one is deplorable, and makes me sick.

How can you support such a thing, with such a caviler attitude? If I posted what I really though, this post would be deleted (or worse). Feel free to email me at magic@bentrain.ca and I'll be happy to chat with you more.

I hope you appreciate the honesty.
Ben
[/quote]

Ben, you lost me. What have I said that is so deplorable?
Message: Posted by: Ben Train (Jan 21, 2008 08:00AM)
Chris,

unless your post was meant to be sarcastic, and I missed it (in which case I apologize) I think the reason for my displeasure is self evident.

Ben
Message: Posted by: Review King (Jan 21, 2008 01:33PM)
[quote]
On 2008-01-21 09:00, BenTrain (Nordatrax) wrote:
Chris,

unless your post was meant to be sarcastic, and I missed it (in which case I apologize) I think the reason for my displeasure is self evident.

Ben
[/quote]

Ben, no worries. I understand how you feel about this company. I thought all my posts about them made it clear how I feel.

Best,
Chris
Message: Posted by: Paul (Jan 21, 2008 04:53PM)
Ben, regarding: "First, let me state that the few interactions I've had with Mr. Hallas have all been nice, polite, and friendly."

Of course they were, and I would hope they would continue to be so. I'm one of the nicest guys in magic, and from your posts you seem a reasonably knowledgeable young card guy.

I'm not going to defend MM or Tannen or Robbins or L & L or Ellusionist or Penguin etc. or any company that has taken someone else's product. But I've been in magic long enough to have seen it all before, and companies come and go. It's almost amusing to see some people bash one company for pirating yet at the same time often support others that have done so. But I will defend myself.

Your analogy : "If a criminal organization offered you cash to be involved with a murder, would you do it? What about money to be a watchman for a robbery- not really "involved", but helps them continue to steal? I hope the answer would be no. Yet, by jumping in bed with magic makers it's THE SAME THING. They steal, rip of artist, and release crappy, shoddy material. "

Of course my answer would be no. Even the watchman or driver for a robbery IS involved and part of the 'team'. I worked in security for 15 years and was closer to that kind of thing than you might think :)And usually there are threats of or actual physical violence involved.

The reality is that it is NOT the same thing. For the first you can be arrested and charged because it is a crime. If it was the same, many dealers would have been locked up by now, but the truth is they are guilty of poor ethics and judgement not criminal offences. Just as one sees other 'Dyson' style vacuum cleaners, cars that look alike from different makers and plenty of items on supermarket shelves with similar labels and packaging.

No, the genuine crooked dealers are those that take your money and don't send the goods, or don't pay their advertising and scam cash from people and in some cases that CAN lead to prosecution. And of course, the magicians that actually steal product from dealers stands at conventions as has happened to many dealers, me included. That IS a law that is being broken.

Re:
"Your video, as are all videos, is "judged on its own merit"- but part of that means taking into consideration who produced it (among others). In this case, purchasing a magic makers product (even one that's legitimate, as yours might well be) still supports theft."

We all have our own viewpoints and where we draw the line, and I'm sure some people will take into consideration who produced a product, that certainly did cross my mind when I did the project, and people are welcome to do that. But I do disagree that my product supports theft. Everything should be judged on its own merit, and in this case if not for MM filming this project it would not be available at all. At least people now have a choice as to whether they want to buy it or not and I respect their decision, but at least they have a choice, and that is better than not having that choice in the first place.

Paul.
Message: Posted by: Review King (Jan 21, 2008 05:08PM)
[quote]
On 2008-01-09 22:14, wpt1031 wrote:
Indeed it does look good. And Ben Salinas translates for Mr. Araki on this DVD.
[/quote]

Ah, the blind leading the blind!
:rotf:
Message: Posted by: wpt1031 (Jan 21, 2008 08:19PM)
[quote]
On 2008-01-21 18:08, Christopher Kavanagh wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-01-09 22:14, wpt1031 wrote:
Indeed it does look good. And Ben Salinas translates for Mr. Araki on this DVD.
[/quote]

Ah, the blind leading the blind!
:rotf:
[/quote]Not sure which way that comment is going. Please elaborate Chris.
Message: Posted by: Review King (Jan 21, 2008 08:42PM)
[quote]
On 2008-01-21 21:19, wpt1031 wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-01-21 18:08, Christopher Kavanagh wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-01-09 22:14, wpt1031 wrote:
Indeed it does look good. And Ben Salinas translates for Mr. Araki on this DVD.
[/quote]

Ah, the blind leading the blind!
:rotf:
[/quote]Not sure which way that comment is going. Please elaborate Chris.
[/quote]

It's like going to watch a Mud Hens game: you have to take into account the weather, who's driving, etc.
Message: Posted by: wpt1031 (Jan 21, 2008 09:52PM)
[quote]
On 2008-01-21 21:42, Christopher Kavanagh wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-01-21 21:19, wpt1031 wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-01-21 18:08, Christopher Kavanagh wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-01-09 22:14, wpt1031 wrote:
Indeed it does look good. And Ben Salinas translates for Mr. Araki on this DVD.
[/quote]

Ah, the blind leading the blind!
:rotf:
[/quote]Not sure which way that comment is going. Please elaborate Chris.
[/quote]

It's like going to watch a Mud Hens game: you have to take into account the weather, who's driving, etc.
[/quote]Got yeah. You a Mud Hens fan Chris?
Message: Posted by: Review King (Jan 21, 2008 09:54PM)
On 2008-01-21 22:52, wpt1031 wrote:

Got yeah. You a Mud Hens fan Chris?

_____________________________________________________

Two great things Ohio has to offer: Toldeo and the Mud Hens and Cincinatti and their Chili!!!!

I wish I lived closer for both!!!
Message: Posted by: seraph127 (Jan 25, 2008 11:06AM)
I saw the trailer, and it seemed odd: I bought [i]Card Master[/i], featuring this same person, and he exhibited far better chops (to me) than on this preview. Maybe this was a bad session?
Message: Posted by: Ben Train (Jan 25, 2008 01:21PM)
Paul,

Although my watchman/robber analogy may have confused matters, what I should have clarified is that MM promotes theft of an artist's ideas (not so much stealing money from customers... although their actions DO lead to less money in many artist's pockets...)- it's an ethics issue.

The bottom line is that if I were to send money to MM for your dvd, which you authorized, it still gives an unethical company more money to produce a DIFFERENT, unauthorized, product.

So, while I'm sure your dvd is great, the only way I'll see it is if someone lends it to me. The same goes for ANY MM dvd.

All the best,
Ben
Message: Posted by: Review King (Jan 25, 2008 03:26PM)
Magic Makers could be a premeir company. Simon Lovell, Randy Wakeman have killer chops and are two of my favorites ( haven't seen Paul's DVD, but his posts on hear show he knows his stuff ). The J Team DVD set contained some of the finest close-up material out there.

MM could easily be the good guys of Magic if they wanted to.
Message: Posted by: Paul (Jan 25, 2008 04:59PM)
Ben,
Re: "The bottom line is that if I were to send money to MM for your dvd, which you authorized, it still gives an unethical company more money to produce a DIFFERENT, unauthorized, product."

Actually, it might fund a totally original product also, I know there are some in the works. However, people generally judge by track record. You could actually send money to me for my DVD and none of that would go to MM at all, but that's beside the point.

Promote - encourage the growth of. Frankly I don't believe they are encouraging other people to steal ideas, that becomes a personal choice in what has become a downloadable piracy generation.

I don't condone anyone's ideas being taken (and it has happened to me by others)and I will not defend the actions of MM. But as someone who has been in and around magic a long time it seems MM is simply the current 'bad boy/whipping boy and whilst attention is loudly directed there the piracy elsewhere is more or less ignored. If rather than judge items on an individual basis one decides to shun an entire company (which if everone could be persuaded to join in theoretically would be effective)it seems to me hypocritical if those standards are not applied to others. For instance that means one would not shop anywhere where one finds a pirated/suspect item, be it a magic shop or major wholesaler.

Since I doubt you could find me a major wholesaler without some pirated items in stock, if fairness applied and they and the shops they supplied were not dealt with, I think they would not be many people on this or any other forum buying magic at all! The catalogues of Tannen and Robbins for instance have far more pirated items in than MM have ever produced.

Of course, it would benefit some wholesalers if some of the others went out of business because there are too many of them constantly trying to pump out stuff for the "What's new?" crowd (who would be better served studying what's old). So sometimes I wonder about hidden agendas and who is being sent out to fire their bullets for them.

Tim Ellis had an interesting site on pirated items, but almost seems to suggest that every item there was pirated by MM which is not the case.

I'm sure Ben, that you wouldn't buy anything from anyone that dealt with these other wholesalers, or L & L or some of the other producers that might not have paid people for their ideas, but I'm sure you have. Which is why when you look at the bigger picture, the idea of judging individual items makes more sense.

Chris said: "MM could easily be the good guys of Magic if they wanted to"

Now that is an interesting observation, and so very true. MM is a relatively recent company. It has time to evolve. Remember all the flak when Ellusionist started? They are now pretty much accepted with their own customer base. Remember Jay Sankey's comments on this forum regarding Penguin magic? Even some of Jay's products appear to have been re-invented. Remember Charles Gauci's argument with Murphy's Magic over a rip on his product? In a Tannen catalogue you still might find variations on the Ken Brooke range. From India there are many versions of old Ken Brooke and Supreme items that are stocked in brick and mortar magic shops all over the world (and plenty of e-shops).

Bob Hummer never trusted any dealer, he thought they were all out to steal his ideas. :)

There's a thread elsewhere on patents, listing magic and illusion patents (patents only last so long of course, which is why generic drug companies flourish.)Is it in an interesting thread because people simply want to know how its done or because they might make the items up? There are plenty of posts on this forum where people have seen something and want to know how it's done or where they can get it so they can include it in their acts also. Ethical?

Ethics ARE a worthy discussion point, but like democracy it can't be enforced from the top down, the attitude has to grow from the bottom up.

As Jesus said, "Let him who has not sinned cast the first stone... Mom, put that rock down."

Paul.
Message: Posted by: Tim Ellis (Jan 25, 2008 05:19PM)
[quote]
On 2008-01-25 17:59, Paul wrote:

Tim Ellis had an interesting site on pirated items, but almost seems to suggest that every item there was pirated by MM which is not the case. [/quote]

Perhaps if you took a look at the site, you'll see that though there are a lot of MM items listed (along with items from other manufacturers) it's not "almost every item".


http://www.magicfakers.blogspot.com/
Message: Posted by: Paul (Jan 25, 2008 05:35PM)
It's a while since I've been Tim, so there may be many more items listed since my early visits. In fact I will take another look, because it is an interesting site. But the very name of the site magicfakers which rhymes with MagicMakers suggests they really are the main target and I'm sure many people that visit come away with that impression. Had it been called Robbins Robbers or Tannen Takers again the perception might have been different :)

Enjoyed your lecture in Reading PA by the way and used your Tim Card Poker Deal for a while. Had I the time I could probably dig out tons of pirated items for you to list but my time is really better occupied elsewhere. Have you got The Premonition Box listed? stocked by Murphys? Looks like Peter Scarlett's Pimpernel Card Case but with an Eddie Joseph Premonition routine included. Just noticed that today. Could notice them everyday if I spent time looking on dealer sites.

By the way to get back on topic with this thread, I'll probobaly get a copy of the DVD that started it all, but it will be some time after Blackpool before I get around to reviewing it.

Paul.
Message: Posted by: Review King (Jan 25, 2008 07:50PM)
I think this is the first time in any of these exchanges I have learned some things.

And it's refreshing to hear Paul not go on the usual rant of someone that did a DVD set with Magic Makers saying "you guys are lost. Magic Maker's are trying to change the industry...Rob Stiff is one of the nicest guys you'll meeet...We talked for hours about the direction of magic..."

What I'm saying is that Paul Hallas has come across as a smart, knowledgable, professional. I never knew he even had a DVD out before this thread. I've been reading his posts and found him to either helping folks or giving great input to a thread.
Message: Posted by: Ben Train (Jan 25, 2008 09:28PM)
Hey Chris,

No one is challenging Paul's qualifications as a magician or as a good person (though, Socrates might challenge my definition of a "good" person!). As far as magicmakers becoming one of the good guys... I don't see it happening. Virtually every product I have seen has been subpar and they don't seem to value ethics or quality- in fact, its fairly apparent the only thing they care about is overhead and profits.

Paul,

Although you make some interesting points, you don't really address my main arguments. I'm not talking about other companies or discussing their code of ethics- I'm talking about MM.

Your examples about other companies and artists don't really hold weight. NO company in recent times has been as bad as MM, which is why they are the posterboys for unethical business practice in magic.

Saying that, stealing is wrong. Stealing ideas is stealing. Ipso facto- stealing ideas is wrong.

[quote]
On 2008-01-25 17:59, Paul wrote:
Ethics ARE a worthy discussion point, but like democracy it can't be enforced from the top down, the attitude has to grow from the bottom up.

Paul.
[/quote]

You lost me here. I'm trying to change things from the bottom up. You disagree with my stance (at least in regards to your work)... can you elaborate?
Message: Posted by: Review King (Jan 25, 2008 10:41PM)
[quote]
On 2008-01-25 22:28, BenTrain (Nordatrax) wrote:
Hey Chris,

No one is challenging Paul's qualifications as a magician or as a good person (though, Socrates might challenge my definition of a "good" person!). As far as magicmakers becoming one of the good guys... I don't see it happening. Virtually every product I have seen has been subpar and they don't seem to value ethics or quality- in fact, its fairly apparent the only thing they care about is overhead and profits.

[/quote]

It would make it easier if everything that MM put out sucked. I guess I'm looking at a bigger picture. I WISH they were the good guys in magic because there have been DVD's that have been very good. Tne J Team, Simon lovell and Randy Wakeman have had excellent DVD's. I mean, worker material ( ok, I dig those guys, but their work elsewhere speaks for istelf ).

There is another product they have produced that is above par, but I won't mention it.

Guys, the dialog we have is excellent. Let's keep it cival and maybe we can make progress. If it goes ugly, the thread get's locked and we don't move forward.
Message: Posted by: Ben Train (Jan 25, 2008 10:58PM)
I might argue that everything I have seen them put out HAS been crap. I'm covering my ass by not listing specific titles, but rest assured, I've seen quite a few.

More importantly though- even if EVERYTHING was good, we've got to look at the bigger picture. In this case that is supporting a crooked company.

Ben
p.s.
Who, or what, is the J team?
Message: Posted by: Paul (Jan 25, 2008 11:08PM)
At the moment, I think the only dealer that may change the way magical DVD's are sold, Chris, is Aldo Colombini, who has now released about half a dozen for $10 each, which may cause other DVD suppliers to rethink their 3 and 4 DVD sets.

But back to Ben's latest comments:

"Although you make some interesting points..,"
Thank you :)

".. you don't really address my main arguments. I'm not talking about other companies or discussing their code of ethics- I'm talking about MM. "

But that was MY point, you are ONLY talking about MM, a code of ethics should be the same for ALL dealers.

"Your examples about other companies and artists don't really hold weight. NO company in recent times has been as bad as MM"

Why don't they hold weight? If other companies have pirate products why should they be let off the hook? To do a comparable analogy to one of your earlier ones, mugging someone for a purse or robbing a bank, it's still robbery so why should the amount of pirated stuff be a deciding factor? How many years do you consider recent times? Are Ellusionist and Penguin not considered recent times?

And are bigger older companies still trading that might have pirated items listed let off the hook? Is there a time frame after which it is okay?

RE: "You lost me here. I'm trying to change things from the bottom up. You disagree with my stance (at least in regards to your work)... can you elaborate?.

My apologies, I wandered, my thoughts were on ethics in magic generally, whereas you seem ONLY focused on ethics with regard to MM. And you are right, you ARE from the ground up. Though my viewpoint was more on magicians in general that download whatever they can for free of others material in pdf or visual format, photocopy books, put up magic web sites giving away free the material of others in the guise of teaching.

Heck, I once visited a magic club that had a teach in before I started, that taught someone else's trick then sold versions of it that had been made up for those that wanted it. Then there's those that watch trick dems on line fifty times or so they can figure it out and make it up. That's what I really meant about a shift in attitude from the bottom up.

RE: "Saying that, stealing is wrong. Stealing ideas is stealing. Ipso facto- stealing ideas is wrong."

We've already established that and I agree so there's no need to repeat it.

Paul.
Message: Posted by: Review King (Jan 25, 2008 11:15PM)
J Team- KILLER magic:
http://www.johnborn.com/products_cutting_edge.html
Message: Posted by: THEGUY26 (Will Swanson) (Jan 25, 2008 11:17PM)
[quote]
On 2008-01-21 22:54, Christopher Kavanagh wrote:
On 2008-01-21 22:52, wpt1031 wrote:

Got yeah. You a Mud Hens fan Chris?

_____________________________________________________

Two great things Ohio has to offer: Toldeo and the Mud Hens and Cincinatti and their Chili!!!!

I wish I lived closer for both!!!
[/quote]

Don't forget the USPCC, Cedar Point, and Freddy!
Message: Posted by: martini (Jan 25, 2008 11:20PM)
Greetings Ben;
I was getting ready to post something here, but seeing that my DVD on card splitting is considered crap, it does not make much sense to even bother.

I do want to thank you for letting me know that I spent the last 35 years working on crap.

All the Best
Marty
Message: Posted by: Paul (Jan 25, 2008 11:25PM)
***, I was attempting to add to my post and you guys posted, made it impossible and I lost it, lol. I am not typing that again.

Marty, lets be honest, we've both been working on magic crap for over 35 years when we should have been creating pet rocks and cabbage patch dolls.

It's past my bedtime zzzz
Paul.
Message: Posted by: Magiguy (Jan 25, 2008 11:26PM)
Time well spent, Marty. Your work has literally changed my life. Bold statement, but I really mean it.

BTW.. Paul, you are also one of my magic heroes.


Okay guys,
Back to you and your silly rants...
Message: Posted by: Review King (Jan 25, 2008 11:43PM)
Marty ( MARTINI ) is one of the greatest, sweetest guys on the planet!

Lickity Split "The Art of Card Splitting Card" is a ground breaking, inside peek on card splitting and gaff card making.

http://www.martinismagic.com

And, IMHO, he's the GREATEST gaff card maker on the planet!
Message: Posted by: martini (Jan 26, 2008 12:16AM)
Greetings Guys;
Now stop it, you're making me blush.lol Your comments are most appreciated.

Paul, what do you mean, past your bedtime? you should be up till at least 3:00 that's when the really good congress and senate arguements come on cable, now there is entertainment.
Pet Rocks and Cabbage Patch Dolls, it seems like just yesterday.lol

You make a good point Paul about Aldo's prices on DVD's. We are looking at a whole different magic business in the years ahead and sadly many magic shops will vanish as all of this works its way out.

While some may say that one particular company is to blame (which I highly doubt)magicians should really take a hard look at themselves. Education is the key to keeping the world of magic alive.
I have listened to magicians call for boycotts on magic shops that carry certain products. All that will do is help put those shops out of business, then where will they go for their props?
I was in Mingus Magic a few months back there in Reading, and two young men in maybe their late 20's came in with a list of things they wanted to see. Wayne showed those items that he had in stock but yet after seeing about 6 items they looked around and were leaving. The one guy said to the other as they were leaving, "You buy the two that we like on E-bay, and I'll make one of each up for both of us and then we can re-sell the one we bought" Duh! There is part of the problem.

The same is with all the sites that are putting manuscripts, books, videos, and such up on line so people can download them for free. Where did this mentality come from? when did it start? Magic Makers can't be blamed for that.

Like I said, education is the key. Look at how few books are being produced today on magic. I have heard it over and over, "I cannot learn from a book, I need to see it done" Well,if you cannot learn from a book, what is the sense in having libraries, book stores, newspapers and such? & if you cannot learn from a book, who taught you to read and write? how did you learn your job? etc.

It is certainly a different mindset today, like I said Education is the key.

Ben, I see that you are passionate against Magic Makers and that is your right. I personally do not agree with all of your feelings, but will defend your right to feel that way and say what you feel.

On the other hand, like Paul had brought up, you can't just single out one company unless you attack all of them that are involved. And if we go back to that word Education, you will find that the copying of magic effects is not new by any means, it has been around as long as magic itself.

If you look back even to the IBM & SAM some of their past presidents were some of the worst offenders, yet the organizations are not tossing them out of the clubs.
Anyway, I have run on too long and am taking up too much space, that's what happens when you get old, the other thing is I can't remember where I sat my beer.

Everyone Take Care & Enjoy Life, it goes by far too fast.
All the Best
Marty
Message: Posted by: Paul (Jan 26, 2008 08:48AM)
[quote]
On 2008-01-26 00:15, Christopher Kavanagh wrote:
J Team- KILLER magic:
http://www.johnborn.com/products_cutting_edge.html
[/quote]

Personally, this collection did not do a lot for me. But then, I'm hardly going to use a card to nipple ring in the restaurant :)I didn't use anything from this collection. I should perhaps go back and watch it again, maybe I never finished it.
Different strokes for different folks. John certainly became better known after this DVD set though.

This thread is now starting to wander all over the place, I think more or less everything that can be said has been said. The last thing we want is listings of different products in a thread asking about one specific DVD.

Over to you..

Paul.
Message: Posted by: Ben Train (Jan 26, 2008 10:04AM)
Sigh.

First, Marty, I was sneaky with my comment on MM producing crap. I stand by what I said- VIRTUALLY EVERYTHING I HAVE SEEN THEM RELEASE HAS BEEN CRAP. That said, I'm not saying I've seen your video, so it might very well be the exception. Or maybe not.

Second, and more importantly,
This topic starter about a video MM produced, and then shifted into a discussion on why many people wouldn't purchase the video- one of them being not wanting to support MM. A discussion on MM's ethics followed, with several people who had financial interest in the company posting that "some of what they do is bad but my project with them isn't". Then, anytime a point was brought up, it was challenged (which is fine) by "what about the other companies?"

This is silly. I'm not discussing the other companies. I'm talking about MM. I've never defended any other company's infractions, nor am I saying it's ok to look away. I repeat- stealing is bad regardless of who's doing it.

If we want to change the focus of this discussion to magical ethics in general, fine. I would be happy to post on a new thread you start. But this one is about MM.

Happy Holidays,
Ben
Message: Posted by: Paul (Jan 26, 2008 10:37AM)
Ben is right in that the discussion broadened considerably into ethics generally but I do think one has to look at the bigger picture to get things into perspective.

Ben, you said: "Second, and more importantly,
This topic starter about a video MM produced, and then shifted into a discussion on why many people wouldn't purchase the video-"

Well it started about a DVD, but it was your posting that really shifted the topic onto the ethics of MM. Well, there were a couple of postings from people who said they wouldn't buy it because it was a MM product. And many might not, but many didn't say so. That is their perogative. Many might not buy any DVD (in fact many don't).

By the way Ben, ARE there any other magic companies you refuse to buy from because they have pirated items in their cataloges?. I've never defended any company that pirated any items either, just stated my view that differs from yours in that I think every item should be judged on its own merit, but that ethical standards should be applied to all. Chances are that you have purchased from other companies that have questionable items in stock, so you really seem to be coming across with a 'holier than thou' attitude. I doubt that's your intention but it is the way it sounds.

But anyway, differing views have been expressed and really, other DVD's shouldn't come into it. I certainly don't have a financial interest in MM, as you might have been suggesting. I'm not on a royalty or anything. I was paid to do a job and did it like any other gig, as professionally as I could. And as I've said, I'm not defending them.

I don't smoke and prefer smoke free zones, but I once did close up magic in a promotion for a cigarette company. Somebody pays me for a job, I do it, that's how I earn my living. I'd work a banquet for any political party. Are they ethical? :)

I really don't think there's any more to say, you aired your view, I aired mine, and several people did in- between. The thread isn't really going to head anywhere else.

Paul.
Message: Posted by: Review King (Jan 26, 2008 11:43AM)
Anyone have a detailed review of Technique Master by Ichiro Araki?
Message: Posted by: erlandish (Jan 26, 2008 11:52AM)
I'm with Ben.

If Magic Makers and the magicians who associate with them want my money, they know what they have to do.
Message: Posted by: wpt1031 (Jan 26, 2008 12:04PM)
I have purchased this dvd along with his other DVD Card Master. So once I do get it I will be posting a full detalied review.
Message: Posted by: Paul (Jan 26, 2008 01:21PM)
Erlandish, your viewpoint is fine (although I didn't get your money before I did anything with MM either!):) Had a quick look at your blogspot, nice detailed review of the Burger set.

Wpt1031, thank you, back on topic. Look forward to it. If the DVD is good, its good, if its bad, its bad. That is all this thread should really have been about.

Paul.
Message: Posted by: martini (Jan 26, 2008 01:33PM)
Greetings Ben;
I have to agree with Paul's comments just above, if this did'nt go into a posting about magic makers, then many of us probably would not have been responding as we have, but that is where you had taken it.

I also do not have any ownership or stock in magic makers either, nor does Simon Lovell, Randy Wakeman, Carl Cloutier or others who have done projects with them. Each of us do a project, get paid, and then that is that unless we do another project down the road.

I am waiting on my set of DVD's by Ichiro Araki myself, as I have heard from some of my customers in Japan that his material is excellent. But I never comment on an item unless I have it in my hand, or have seen it personally, and then only when asked. I have stopped reviewing anything of magic makers here since I was getting e-mails claiming that my reviews were biased and that I had a financial interest in the company.

So even though I am looking forward to these DVD's, I probably will view them and keep any comments I might have about them to myself since many would feel anything I said about them would be biased.

This is one of the points that we agree to disagree on, I always look at the item itself rather than the company that produces it. Point in place, Many people absolutely hate Jeff Busby for whatever reasons they have, which is their perogative. I feel that Jeff Busby has put out some excellent material over the years, and I have bought tricks, props and books from him, not based on him personally, but on the quality of the material and who wrote it or performed it.

So I will just wait until my set arrives and sit back and enjoy what my friends in Japan have told me about.

All the Best
Marty
Message: Posted by: Ben Train (Jan 26, 2008 05:15PM)
Marty, Paul,

If I downloaded your videos then released my own video, at a fraction of a cost, teaching YOU work, would you be upset?

Of course. And, you would no doubt post on this very forum to express your outrage- rightfully so, my actions would be wrong.

And, wrong is bad, no?

But, assuming you both had good material, then the material I choose to steal would be good. And, at a cheap price would be a good buy. So it would be both bad and good at the same time, for different, though related, reasons.

Still with me?

MM is bad. It steals, rips off ideas, and doesn't credit properally. Supporting it is bad. So, a product from them means more money in their pocket- which is bad. If a dvd they produce is good, it's still supporting a crooked, unethical, company. That's bad.

If you agree that MM is bad, then supporting them is bad.

So, what are we to do if we want to see what might be a good dvd?
Here are some options.
1. Say "what the hell" and buy the dvd. This means the situation will never change. I don't see this as an acceptable solution (though you might).
2. Don't buy the dvd and miss out on the material. This might sadden some, but the bottom line is there is MORE then a lifetime's worth of material already available, and it would send a clear message to manufactures about what the market considers acceptable business practice. I like this idea.
3. Download the sucker. Why not? No money for the thiefs, and you get to see the dvd. If you like it, you could send money to the real source, like Goodwin or Bannon.

Just some thoughts.
Message: Posted by: erlandish (Jan 26, 2008 09:58PM)
[quote]
On 2008-01-26 14:21, Paul wrote:
Erlandish, your viewpoint is fine (although I didn't get your money before I did anything with MM either!):) Had a quick look at your blogspot, nice detailed review of the Burger set.
[/quote]

Aw, thanks Paul. Your heart's as big as all outdoors.
Message: Posted by: Paul (Jan 26, 2008 10:10PM)
Here we go here we go here we go. Whoops sorry, was starting a singalong to go with your tunnel vision rant. Some of my booklets have already been ripped off as downloadable pdf files. It happens as soon as you release a book these days.

Ben, you can do whatever you want, that is your choice to do so. And since your ethical position is so clear I'm sure you won't use any Marlo material (because he stole a few things here and there) won't buy books from L & L because they simply took some of the Gansen books (you can ask Martin Breese about that) or buy books from Magico (who apparently never paid for Pabular and Peter Kane was waiting for money for the Kane book until he died) or deal with dealers that stock their products. The list can go on and on, the longer you've been in magic you know where more of the skeletons are. Talk to Ben Harris about all the dealers that ripped off his Cosmosis, it will expand your list of dealers who not to do business with so that its larger than one.

Personally I don't buy any pirated items, nor did I ever stock any to my knowledge. What you do is your business. If you want to start another thread with your personal MM crusade that's up to you, I won't be there, and I'm done posting here. Hopefully the next post here will be a review of the DVD. Everyone knows your position so there's nothing else to say, but I'm sure you an find another thread to hijack before long for another MM bashing, and good luck to you.

Paul.
Message: Posted by: Paul (Jan 27, 2008 10:25AM)
Actually after re-reading my last post, I don't think the tone seemed right to me, but of course an edit was out of the question since someone else in the universe had actually posted something somewhere (and I would have improved a typo).

When you read the entire thread, it seems a littly crazy that what started about a query about the Technique Master DVD (which may not actually contain any copied material since no-one has seen the full DVD to review it yet)should come to the point where Ben asks:
"If I downloaded your videos then released my own video, at a fraction of a cost, teaching YOUR work, would you be upset?"

I think maybe the question should be addressed to the actual individuals (plural) who have copied or pirated articles than to those that have had items pirated. Perhaps your attention should actually be on the piraters themselves or those that buy pirated items. I know Marty has had stuff ripped off too, years ago we discussed the possibility of putting out a magazine all about pirated items and the people that were pirating them, but never went any further with it.

Your options as you see them are just that, options as you see them. I see nothing wrong with 1 or 2 as viewpoints, don't think 3 is a good suggestable option, since you're only suggesting IF YOU LIKE IT to send money to the real source. And we all know that with very rare exceptions the downloadable crowd do not send money on (I think someone once did send money to Mike Close, and I applaud them for it). So basically option 3 suggests people become thieves but try and justify their actions by stealing from thieves or telling themselves that they are stealing from thieves.

Anyway, I really am done here as I see any intelligent part of the conversation as being truly over and all genuine points of interest/view being covered.

Paul.
Message: Posted by: Ben Train (Jan 27, 2008 10:42AM)
Well,

We aren't going anywhere. It was interesting to hear your thoughts, and hopefully you feel the same way about mine. I wish you all the best,
Ben
P.S.
I was the guy who sent money to Mike Close, among others- I posted the whole story several months ago.
Message: Posted by: Review King (Jan 27, 2008 11:47AM)
[quote]
On 2008-01-27 11:42, BenTrain (Nordatrax) wrote:
Well,

We aren't going anywhere. It was interesting to hear your thoughts, and hopefully you feel the same way about mine. I wish you all the best,
Ben
P.S.
I was the guy who sent money to Mike Close, among others- I posted the whole story several months ago.
[/quote]

Ben, can you post a link. I'd be very interested in reading what you had to say.

Thanks!

Chris
Message: Posted by: Ben Train (Jan 27, 2008 12:13PM)
I have NO idea where it was posted.

Basically, I came to a turning point-

I realized I couldn't in good conscious claim to love and respect magic and at the same time rip of artist's work. It's like saying you love and respect your mother, but stealing money from her purse.

So, I got rid of all copies, and sent money to artists who I had stolen from. Some people I still owe money too, and it will take me a long time to settle up. But I intended to settle up.

There is a lot more to the story, but I got banned (for a short period) for getting into it, because it of course means I admitted to stealing/copying. Interestingly enough though, it hasn't been deleted, so if someone does find the link feel free to post it.

All the best,
Ben
p.s.
No, I am not intending to be a righteous dick. I still do a LOT that g-d, and people, would frown upon. And some I'll fix (like not downloading Jay Sankey dvd's) and some I won't (like drinking in excess, and manslaughter).
Message: Posted by: Review King (Jan 28, 2008 12:59AM)
I guess I owe my Mother money.
Message: Posted by: THEGUY26 (Will Swanson) (Jan 28, 2008 01:04AM)
I do too.









My mother that is.
Message: Posted by: Review King (Jan 28, 2008 01:36AM)
[quote]
On 2008-01-28 02:04, THEGUY26 (Will Swanson) wrote:
I do too.

My mother that is.
[/quote]

Thanks for clearing that up. I thought we both got trashed and robbed her.
Message: Posted by: THEGUY26 (Will Swanson) (Jan 28, 2008 02:23AM)
What?
Message: Posted by: wpt1031 (Jan 28, 2008 09:36AM)
This thread has taken a bit of a silly route.
Message: Posted by: wpt1031 (Feb 11, 2008 08:25PM)
Well time for that oh so important review I mentioned I was going to do earlier in this thread. First and foremost I'll say right off the bat I liked this DVD. GASP! Yeah I know its Magic Makers but I really did enjoy it.

As for the actual DVD itself we have the same lame intro from Rob Stiff thanking us for buying the DVD. Seriously we get it you like us buying your stuff but seriously enough is enough. After we have that fandabbytabulous intro we have another one thatís actually quite informative from Ben Salinas that tells us a little about Mr. Araki. Mr. Araki has been President of his IBM for the last 25 years with over 400 members and in charge of his own private magic club with over 500 members pretty neat eh? Heís published over 7 magic books mainly about card and coin magic. He is a well known actor and singer and has even taught the late great Larry Jennings. Well enough about the history of Mr. Araki lets go on to the magic.

Tricks
Geome-trick: Iíll admit Iím not a big coin worker like some of the magicians at the Cafť but I do understand it enough to appreciate it. This is actually a nice way to visually produce a coin. It looks similar to a way to produce a coin from Cultural Exchange volume 1 but the handling is just a little bit easier then the one on Cultural Exchange volume 1. 8/10

Silent Destiny: This is a three coin routine that only uses three coins. Two alike coins and one odd coin. This isnít a bad routine just not to my liking as Iíve seen better and the handling just seem awkward. 5/10

Up-Down Coin: This would be Mr. Arakiís version of the coin thru hand effect. Itís nice simple and easy to do. All the proper moves are named. I actually looked just to make sure. 7/10

Instant Triumph: Now I know somebody made a comment about this looking like John Bannon's last man standing triumph that I donít know for sure as I donít know the exact working behind it so I do apologize for that one though I have seen people perform it and visually there are some similarities but thatís all I got and again apologize. Itís a pretty good in the hands triumph and have been practicing this for the last couple of weeks now. Though the funny thing is about the demo is he does one move at the very beginning which is I believe where people point out the similarities but as he goes to the explanation he recommends another move all together which is found on his other DVD very weird. As of right now Iíll give this effect 9/10 until I learn the handlings behind John Bannonís Last Man Standing Triumph.

Spiral Cut: A flashy little flourish. Doesnít really do much but fun to mess with. 7/10

Spiral Cut Control: Same thing as above but you are using it as a control this time around. Not bad but not exactly the most useful thing. 7/10

Floating Deck 2007: Seriously? A floating deck? For being one of the greatest card workers in the world a floating deck? Okay enough joking around I imagine your all thinking of that classic floating deck that Iíve seen Jay Sankey put on a couple of DVDs plus on that show he is on Spellz. Donít worry its not. Itís actually a much nicer more convincing version of that effect. The classic floating deck you can only see head on with this version the deck is at more of an angle. Either way I have no idea why a floating deck seemed appealing to put on a DVD titled ďTechnique MasterĒ but it shouldnít have put on there. 4/10

Pyramid Production: A three packet production that turns intoÖ.you guessed it a Pyramid. The you produce the card in hand while holding the Pyramid. Probably the hardest trick on the DVD but well worth it.9/10

Teaching
The entire DVD consists of Mr. Araki doing the handling but with Ben Salinas doing the translating. And everything comes out very clear and easy to understand. So good job Ben!

Overall
Itís not a bad DVD and yes I know there is better available in the world of Japanese magic but for 22.50 at themagicwarehouse.com its not a bad price. Overall this DVD gets 7.5/10
Message: Posted by: Review King (Feb 11, 2008 08:27PM)
Is Ben Salinas dressed as a Geisha during the translations? If so, I may get the DVD.
Message: Posted by: wpt1031 (Feb 11, 2008 08:46PM)
Haha! Your a funny man Chris you really are. Sadly no. Though he'd probably make a lovely Geisha.
Message: Posted by: Paul (Feb 13, 2008 02:53PM)
So content wise just 6 tricks and the spiral cut stuff?

Does the pyramid thing use an elastic band?

I had an idea for producing a selected card from a card pyramid after coming across an idea in Richard's Almanack in the eighties, but you did need a table top to do it.

Thanks for the review.

Paul.
Message: Posted by: wpt1031 (Feb 13, 2008 03:19PM)
Nope no elastic band at all. Its all done entirely in your hands but when its done properly it looks absolutely killer. And yep only 6 six actual tricks plus the sprial cut stuff. No problem at all Paul. I'll be putting up one for his other DVD Card Master soon.
Message: Posted by: Ben Train (Feb 13, 2008 08:34PM)
Does the left thumb produce the card so that when looking through the triangle you see the card (it "springs" into view)?

So, three coin tricks (one described as awkward), a false cut/control that "doesn't really do much"/isn't "exactly the most useful thing, a floating deck that doesn't quite cut it, and a triumph that isn't his (In fairness- I haven't seen the video, so this is pure speculation)? What makes this video better then I suspected it would be?
Message: Posted by: wpt1031 (Feb 13, 2008 10:10PM)
Yes the thumb does produce the card Ben. As for what I meant about the false cut/control comments I made they were both incomplete thoughts on my behalf. I meant to say "Doesnít really do much for me" and "exactly the most useful thing for me." And not to make excuses for Mr. Araki it seemed on this video he was having a bad session because on his other DVD Card Master he seemed more calm and with it. Or its even possible MM only did one take which wouldn't suprise me. And on a much lighter side note he's actually a pretty good singer.
Message: Posted by: Ben Train (Feb 14, 2008 02:28AM)
Well, from the admittedly little info you've provided, the production sounds like the TV production, which I think was in the Trapdoor (I may have ALL the sources wrong...)

Maybe, just maybe, he didn't have a bad session. Maybe, just maybe, he wasn't very good?
Message: Posted by: wpt1031 (Feb 14, 2008 03:26AM)
Mmmmm...no I'm going to go with probably a bad session. And what little info that I've provided are you speaking of? Whatever your looking for just ask and ye shall recieve my good man.
Message: Posted by: Ben Train (Feb 14, 2008 06:09PM)
I apologize.

I didn't mean to infer that small amount of info I had was your fault. I simply meant based on the brief synopsis you provided, and my not seeing the dvd, that I didn't really have a ton to go on.

If you enjoyed it, that's all that mattered!