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Topic: Can I share the method of this old trick--Ethics/legality
Message: Posted by: mindsynced (Jan 29, 2008 07:29PM)
I am sure all of you know this age-old trick that appears in just about every magic book on a library shelf. It is the jumping rubber band.

I have developed Christian patter for the two phases of this trick. I would like to write it in a PDF format and make it available to Christians who are looking for a solid way to share their faith, etc.

Is it okay to teach this trick in the PDF? Is it old enough to be considered "public domain?"

I was not sure where to post this but would appreciate the help.
Sincerely wanting to do the right thing,
Keith
Message: Posted by: Nathan Pain (Jan 29, 2008 07:56PM)
I think ANY presentation for that trick would be much appreciated,Christian, or otherwise.

Nathan
Message: Posted by: Magic Spank (Jan 29, 2008 08:38PM)
That trick was invented by my Grandfather and was originally titled "Grandpa Spank's Robusto Rubbers"

It quickly slipped (or jumped) into the public domain yes, but I'm sure he would appreciate the credit that he never received during his life.

BTW... Grandpa was not a magician. He was a rubber band salesman. Probably the best there ever was. In no small part due to his sales pitch which involved his "Robusto Rubbers" trick. He also invented the thing where you wrap a rubber band around your hand and shoot it like a gun, as well as the genius idea of storing a rubber band by wearing it on your wrist like a bracelet.

I wear one simply to honor his memory. I miss you Grandpa S.
Message: Posted by: sickmagic (Jan 29, 2008 08:49PM)
From my understanding if its in print it can be re used, however if you use it with out proper credit then there might be issues. What really is public domain anyway? If we publish our material it is out there for others to use and to potentially profit from. I think personally this has lost its focus, the magic is important and of course crediting is important but once its out it is out and there really isn't much anyone can do unless it is a direct copy right infringement. From my research as well the only thing that can be copyrighted is packaging and written text. If anyone has any other info to add to this that would be fantastic!

Sickmagic
Message: Posted by: mindsynced (Jan 29, 2008 09:10PM)
Thanks for the input. I think many people, who find it hard to share their faith, will find my patter helpful.

Take care,
Keith
Message: Posted by: JohnWells (Jan 29, 2008 11:39PM)
Be sure to credit Harry Lorayne who invented this when he was ten years old...
Message: Posted by: daver (Jan 29, 2008 11:45PM)
I'm not a lawyer, but I've worked with intellectual property protection enough to say confidently if you write it yourself based on your own knowledge, and do not lift any text or drawings from any place else, then you are not infringing copyrights. It is the expression of ideas that is copyrighted.

Now, as to the proper credit and attribution to the originator of effects and ideas, the question is are those things protected in any way, as with patents? In this case, I suspect not.

Then there's the peer pressure from the magic community to go to at least reasonable lengths to attribute credit to originators. IMHO, if you take steps to state where you learned it, and try to trace the "family tree" back a little as to where your sources came from, that would make me happy. Some would say you have to go back to some caveman who discovered fire because without that we could not process rubber to make rubber bands and... well you get the idea...

Again, IMHO, I think that with just a little extra on your part to describe some of the origins of your knowledge and cite any credible originator or significant contributor to the work would be enough...
Message: Posted by: Magiguy (Jan 30, 2008 12:04AM)
[quote]
On 2008-01-30 00:39, JohnWells wrote:
Be sure to credit Harry Lorayne who invented this when he was ten years old...
[/quote]

What was the point of your post on this, or any other thread? It has nothing to do with the OP, and is an obvious, and un-provoked joust. I'm getting tired of such posts here. They bring the Café down to a saddeningly low level. Have you even begun to study a fraction of what Harry Lorayne has contributed to our art? For the record, that was a rhetorical question. I already know the answer.
Message: Posted by: harishjose (Jan 30, 2008 04:39AM)
I don't know if it has been on print. But it is possible for loading the band again with single hand, once the band has jumped- for a second jump.
Message: Posted by: Philosophry (Jan 30, 2008 09:41AM)
Legally, of course, you are perfectly within your rights to publish this material.

I would say that your Christian-friendly way of presenting the effect would count as making the PDF something original* and worthwhile to the magic community (a sub-section of it at least) and so should be welcomed by the community.

However, in magic, it is a case of published and be ***ed (no pun intended), well ***ed on sniping magic forums anyway. :)

*original as in a novel way of presenting an age-old effect. Your readers will for the most part be purchasing the pdf for the presentation rather than the method I'm assuming.
Message: Posted by: mindsynced (Jan 30, 2008 02:49PM)
Philosophry,
Thank you for your insightful post. You are correct in that the presentation is the key here...not the age-old method.
Keith
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Jan 30, 2008 03:43PM)
Thanks, Magiguy. But save your breath because there's no way to "advise" someone like JohnWells (going by that lovely post of his; probaly next to "uncalled for" in the main scheme of things, is his name and picture). There simply was, is, no excuse or rationale for that post, aside from the fact that it has absolutely nothing to do with the question being asked. But you know, we need people like JohnWells, because compared to him, EVERYONE is a nice person!

Interesting, I've had this discussion with top-rated psychiatrist friends of mine over the years. (Because every once in a while there's a JohnWells type.) They've (all the psychiatrists)have always told me that people like JohnWElls just WANT to get a rise out of someone who is much, much, more important than they are or can ever hope to be - makes them feel a little bigger than the "little" *****s they are. I'm aware of that, but can't help it - have to respond like this. It's wrong, I know - makes that ***** feel good to get a rise out of me. But so be it - everyone else (well, MOST everyone else) will understand.

I'll save, or try to save, some back-and-forth bu*****t from JohnWells: What usually happens after I answer like this is - the ***** will respond in either of two ways: He'll yell and scream that he has a right to his opinion (of course, he does, as do I),that I have a terrible ego (right; because I refuse to take s*** from *****s), or some silliness to that effect; or - "Gee, I was only kidding." My answer, of course, would be - don't make me the butt of your inane, idiotic, attempts at humor. So, I hope I've anticipated and answered so that we don't have to hear anymore from "little" people. Best - HARRY LORAYNE.
Message: Posted by: Arnon (Jan 30, 2008 09:15PM)
[quote]
On 2008-01-30 00:45, daver wrote:
I'm not a lawyer, but I've worked with intellectual property protection enough to say confidently if you write it yourself based on your own knowledge, and do not lift any text or drawings from any place else, then you are not infringing copyrights. It is the expression of ideas that is copyrighted.

Now, as to the proper credit and attribution to the originator of effects and ideas, the question is are those things protected in any way, as with patents? In this case, I suspect not.

Then there's the peer pressure from the magic community to go to at least reasonable lengths to attribute credit to originators. IMHO, if you take steps to state where you learned it, and try to trace the "family tree" back a little as to where your sources came from, that would make me happy. Some would say you have to go back to some caveman who discovered fire because without that we could not process rubber to make rubber bands and... well you get the idea...

Again, IMHO, I think that with just a little extra on your part to describe some of the origins of your knowledge and cite any credible originator or significant contributor to the work would be enough...
[/quote]

Good synopsis - for a lawyer's (my) answer, read my post at: http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=241017&forum=15&start=60

Feel free to ask me any follow-up questions on it.

Arnon

P.S. Harry - I don't think the issue is whether JohnWells was joking or whether his post was relevant to the OP; the issue was respect. I cut my magic teeth on Closeup Card Magic, as many did, and I have the greatest respect for you and would never even [i]consider[/i] making a snide remark about you.

Unfortunately, others do not honor those who have contributed so much to our art.

Sorry about that.
Message: Posted by: harishjose (Jan 31, 2008 03:54AM)
Agree with Arnon.

Most respect to Mr. Lorayne.