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Topic: Does magic get in the way of the message?
Message: Posted by: FriarShaun (Feb 18, 2008 01:13PM)
I have attempted to teach and preach with magic, but I must admit that I find people remember the illusion more than the point. In fact sometimes I wonder if the magic has too strong of an impact? It is as if the illusion shorts all memory of everything around it. I have been contemplating a different approach. I am thinking of doing the strongest affects I can, really wowing them, and then transitioning into my point, without illusion. Using the magic to earn the right to speak if you will. What do you think? Has anyone ever had anyone come up after an affect and explain that they really got the point?
Message: Posted by: RevJohn (Feb 18, 2008 01:39PM)
I have a friend, who is also a pastor, that will not do Magic in his Children's sermons, because of that same reason. That the kids remember the illusion more than the message.

I have found that not to be the case, if my presentation is supported by the illusion and not the other way around.

John
Message: Posted by: dbearden (Feb 18, 2008 07:19PM)
I agree with John....many people (including myself in my younger days) make the mistake of taking an illusion and tacking a message on to it.....in order to keep folk's thinking along the lines you want them to, you should start with the message and use an illusion to support the message. The the proverbial "light bulbs" tend to flash on and people associate the message and illusion.
Message: Posted by: Terry Owens (Feb 19, 2008 07:44AM)
What I do in my Crusades, the message is illustrated by the magic. Ie...trading places, the PB & J effect I talk about how Christ traded places with us.

It also depends which program I'm doing...If I'm doing an outreach program called "Can you believe: An evening of Illusion, Laughter and Ministry" that is more on traditional show, with great teaching seeds interwoven with a finish that leads to a powerful altar call. But with my crusades, I think of the theme that I'm teaching on and then put together effects that illustrate my topic. So each night of the crusade has a particular preaching/teaching theme which I illustrate using professional level equipment. I don't even emphasis the fact that I'm doing magic, it just kind of infered, so the emphasis is more on the message than the magic.

That method has worked well for me for 28 years and thousands saved...

Blessings!
Message: Posted by: rossmacrae (Feb 19, 2008 02:52PM)
This is the persistent and pervasive problem with "Gospel Magic" - it's not useless, but it's awfully easy to put together a routine badly and ineffectively.

Too many well-meaning magi try to force a message into just any old effect, which can be awfully annoying to an audience. It takes both magical skill and (mindful of the larger goal) skill in conveying a gospel message. But that's why they don't just go to the unemployment office and hire the next guy in line as a preacher.

But that's not what you asked ... and I don't agree that the magic obscures the message in most cases. As both educators and advertising professionals are fond of saying, "every time you repeat a point it makes another copy in your brain."

Even if you're performing for kids who get goggle-eyed over the effects and can't repeat the message back to you, the message hasn't vanished - a complete impression has been made. That's why, after years of being bored to death in kiddie Sunday-school lessons, and far more interested in the Bible stories than I was in the points they made, all these years later I can recall not only the "biggie" Bible verses but plenty of less-familiar passages as well, and use them in discussions. Repetition, even though the key content may not be received as strongly as the "packaging."

So what if your routine (or your entire show) doesn't result in a single conversion at the time? You have either planted an initial seed in someone's mind, or reinforced an idea that has already been conveyed. You will probably never know what the payoff will be farther downstream.
Message: Posted by: Hearttau (Feb 19, 2008 04:02PM)
Rossmacrae and I have made similar observations it seems. It may not be obvious during or right after a performance that the message has made an impact, but if your message delivery is clear and well done you probably have planted seeds in memory which will blossom later.

Dave
Message: Posted by: Terry Owens (Feb 19, 2008 08:28PM)
It all depends what you're going for. In my performances and crusades I give an altar call that calls for a particular response. If I was doing a Sunday school program, I would be going for just sharing the truth. There's a BIG difference between the two types of sharing. Nothing is wrong with just trying to communicate a message but my goal is to lead men and women, boys and girls to Jesus Christ. I expect to see people saved, I pray to that end and God gives the increase.
Message: Posted by: rossmacrae (Feb 19, 2008 10:52PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-19 21:28, Terry Owens wrote:
Nothing is wrong with just trying to communicate a message but my goal is to lead men and women, boys and girls to Jesus Christ. I expect to see people saved, I pray to that end and God gives the increase.
[/quote]
I'm just saying that not all good rewards are immediate rewards.

Good for you if your messages prompt immediate responses. But don't sell yourself short - you are also creating long-term awareness at the same time. That is "leading" too.

I hope you don't go home unhappy if a crowd doesn't flock to the altar after every show. Don't ignore the individuals who don't respond to calls for immediate action. Many people are more thoughtful than emotional, and (a) take time to decide, or resist the implication that 'you'd better choose now or you've lost your chance,' and (b) may need a lengthy series of repeated impressions to absorb the message.

Who can say how many different ways the spirit works on a soul?
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Feb 20, 2008 12:25AM)
I think that when we use magic tricks to present the message of Jesus Christ we are always at risk of getting the magic in the way of the message. Like everything in life, there is a right way and a wrong way. One of my theories is to always come up with the message first, then look to see where you can use a few gospel tricks to help illustrate some of the points in your message. The only real purpose for bringing in magic tricks is to make our message entertaining, and we can't believe that magic tricks makes the message stronger. If we actually believe the tricks make the message more undertstandable or more powerful, then what we're saying is that the Bible isn't enough, that it's through our skills and abilities along with the Word of God that saves people. If all we do is perform magic as a christian entertainer strictly for entertainment purposes only, let our actions and our conduct be a clear representation of the message of Jesus Christ. In all we do, may others see Jesus in us.
Message: Posted by: Terry Owens (Feb 20, 2008 07:22AM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-20 01:25, Gospel Dan wrote:
The only real purpose for bringing in magic tricks is to make our message entertaining, and we can't believe that magic tricks makes the message stronger. If we actually believe the tricks make the message more undertstandable or more powerful, then what we're saying is that the Bible isn't enough, that it's through our skills and abilities along with the Word of God that saves people. [/quote]

I couldn't disagree with you more...in the hands of someone who is called to the ministry, "Gospel magic" is a highly effective tool of communications. Any educator will tell you the more senses you involve the more likely you will remember what is being conveyed. Jesus Himself used parables and physical illustrations to convey the truths He was teaching and He was the Word. Gospel magic if done correctly helps to convey a truth that you are trying to teach. I have several television spots that air in 170 countries that do just that. Feel free to visit one my sites and take a look at them...the magic doesn't get in the way of the message.

And for Ross...I believe it was DL Moody that once asked a young preacher...do you expect people to get saved every time you preach, the young preacher said no...DL Moody replied, that's why you don't.

I go in with those expectations, that's why churches bring me in and God doesn't disappoint me. I'm not a guy doing some magic tricks trying to be cute and tell a sweet bible story...I'm passionate about what I do, I take it seriously, it's bathed in prayer and anointed by God....anything less is a setup for just another cute Gospel story. With 85% of all folks coming to Christ come under the age of 18, we have to be prepared to reach that harvest.

And I don't always see all the eternal outcomes from my programs, no Evangelist ever does, so that's always a given. But having empty altars is not an option for me.
Message: Posted by: Ethan the emazing (Feb 20, 2008 09:23AM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-20 08:22, Terry Owens wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-02-20 01:25, Gospel Dan wrote:
The only real purpose for bringing in magic tricks is to make our message entertaining, and we can't believe that magic tricks makes the message stronger. If we actually believe the tricks make the message more understandable or more powerful, then what we're saying is that the Bible isn't enough, that it's through our skills and abilities along with the Word of God that saves people. [/quote]

I couldn't disagree with you more...in the hands of someone who is called to the ministry, "Gospel magic" is a highly effective tool of communications. Any educator will tell you the more senses you involve the more likely you will remember what is being conveyed. Jesus Himself used parables and physical illustrations to convey the truths He was teaching and He was the Word. Gospel magic if done correctly helps to convey a truth that you are trying to teach. I have several television spots that air in 170 countries that do just that. Feel free to visit one my sites and take a look at them...the magic doesn't get in the way of the message.

And for Ross...I believe it was DL Moody that once asked a young preacher...do you expect people to get saved every time you preach, the young preacher said no...DL Moody replied, that's why you don't.

I go in with those expectations, that's why churches bring me in and God doesn't disappoint me. I'm not a guy doing some magic tricks trying to be cute and tell a sweet bible story...I'm passionate about what I do, I take it seriously, it's bathed in prayer and anointed by God....anything less is a setup for just another cute Gospel story. With 85% of all folks coming to Christ come under the age of 18, we have to be prepared to reach that harvest.

And I don't always see all the eternal outcomes from my programs, no Evangelist ever does, so that's always a given. But having empty altars is not an option for me.
[/quote]

I agree with Terry. Being a teen myself I can tell you that illustrations and/or "magic" is a great tool. It can help, or hurt your message. I believe that it depends on: who your trying to reach, why your trying to reach them, and how. Like stated before if you support your trick by message it can hurt the message. But if you support your message with a trick I believe it helps tremendously.
Message: Posted by: rossmacrae (Feb 20, 2008 11:56AM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-20 08:22, Terry Owens wrote:
And for Ross...I believe it was DL Moody that once asked a young preacher...do you expect people to get saved every time you preach, the young preacher said no...DL Moody replied, that's why you don't.
[/quote]
I write a nice supportive post - "don't forget the unseen good you do whether you see scads of emotion-driven instant-converts or not" - and you argue with me like I'm trying to tear you down.

[*sigh*]
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Feb 20, 2008 12:16PM)
"Any educator will tell you the more senses you involve the more likely you will remember what is being conveyed."

Wow, I understand that you take what you do for the Lord very serious Terry, and I commend you for that. I have no doubt that the Holy Spirit is active in your ministry. We will have to agree to disagree on this point though. Jesus' parables and magic tricks are two entirely different things. I can't honestly picture Jesus or his Disciples performing magic tricks to keep the people interrested in what they were saying. If we can't reach people with the Gospel alone, what are we saying? Some of us would rather look outwardly when feeling that our preaching is not being effective instead of looking inwardly. It's not the Gospel that's lacking but the preacher who is lacking. If a preacher puts people to sleep, it's not because the Gospel is boring, it means the preacher is boring. I still stand by what I said. We don't need to add magic tricks to our ministry to make it effective. The only thing we need and require in our ministry to make it effective is the power of the Holy Spirit.

I am both a preacher and a christian entertainer. My outreach ministry is evangalizing to non-believers, and I use magic for entertainment purposes only to help open dialoge with the people I meet. I could use comedy, juggling, or any other form of christian entertainment but I chose to use what I was good at. I also perform Gospel Magic for churches as well, but I don't believe it should replace the regular service.

As far as what other educator's say, I can't respond to their statement unless I know what exactly they are trying to convey, and if they are christians or not.
Message: Posted by: Terry Owens (Feb 20, 2008 12:39PM)
Dan...we basically are in agreement, but I come from a different perspective than most who do Gospel magic. I didn't have any outside influences when I began putting together my Crusades, never even heard of Gospel magic. When I put something together, I think of the message I'm wanting to convey, and then how can I illustrate that message...then the effects that I do become my 3 point outline. If you took a look at my spots, you will see where I'm coming from. The motive is the message and not magic when doing them. It's not a means to augment the Gospel message, but it is one of the means to help me communicate the message. They are nothing more than object lessons to illustrate a truth and that is exactly what Jesus did, whether it was showing a piece of grain and talking about it needing to die and fall into the ground. (That was an object lesson to drive home the truth.) or teaching with parables. Jesus met people at their point of understanding to share His Word with them. That in my mind is what Gospel Magic should be...nothing more than an object lesson to illustrate the truth.

When I'm performing my special shows, I don't really consider that Gospel magic...I am a Christian, who is entertaining with illusion to earn the right to share the gospel which is what I do in the end and it's there that we agree.

Ross...I know you were originally trying to be encouraging. My point was that we need to raise our expectations of what we see happening in our services that we conduct. If we see no results, all we can do is reflect on was I prepared properly, did I seek God like I should before this meeting and if I did, then I just trust God that He did what He desired to do and leave it in His hands.

God has been good to me in my ministry and I'm so thankful that there are those who do listen and respond to the voice of the Lord in the altar. Not everyone is in a position of harvest yet. So when I'm doing a program, I'm either sowing, watering but it's always God that gives the increase.

As magicians, we can't afford to excuse poor preparation, and poor performances with excuses of why we see no results. If we are doing service after service and see no results in the altars, then we really need to take a close examination of ourselves. If the church in the book of Acts saw God adding to the church daily, then we can have that same expectation that God will add to His kingdom using us as his vessels...

What a great opportunity we have, getting to perform and win folks to Christ.
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Feb 20, 2008 03:22PM)
Hi Terry,

I too did not even know anything about Gospel Magic when I started looking into using tricks in my Gospel message. I thought I was inventing something new.(lol)I was both surprised and happy to see that many others were already doing what I was thinking about doing. People like you and many others helped pave the way for people like me. In the beginning many christians were very against the practice of magic, even if applied to biblical truths. It was easier for me because arguememnts for Gospel magic had already been made, and several of them really good arguements.

However, I also find that Gospel Magic is a "free for all", open to anyone who can perform Gospel tricks, rather than being led by our Lord to share the message of Jesus Christ. I'm not talking about people who use a few tricks to witness to others about their faith, and I'm not talking about christians who perform magic as entertainment only, I'm speaking about those who use magic as a way to get into ministry. I personally believe that there has not been enough said in regards to the Ministry aspect of Gospel magic from both a biblical side and moral side, and I think that as more young people look to get into Gospel magic they need to understand what they are getting into spiritually and biblically. As christians we have spiritual rules to follow, shouldn't there be rules for Gospel Magicians as well?
Message: Posted by: Terry Owens (Feb 20, 2008 03:39PM)
I put the note in the other spot and I'll say it here...I agree 110% with what you just said...200% actually...I would go higher, but I wouldn't want to over do it...

A historical side note: Gospel magic has been around since the early 1900's being used by a pastor and the minister who led the way was a friend of Howard Thurston. From the genre of Gospel magic, children's performers were born here in the United States.

Keep the faith!
Message: Posted by: paulmagic (Feb 20, 2008 07:46PM)
My focus is the message and magic is for me just one means to support the message. Magic will help as long as the gospel message is the main focus. I think that every one of us who begins using gospel magic will have to find the right balance of message / magic. We will eventually find the right balance that suits the occassion, our level of skill and personality so that the magic enhances the message and not take away the spotlight from the message.

Having said that, there will always be a small percentage that will be more interested in the magic and not the message! I have come to accept it.

As I am a pastor who now ministers 90% of the time in a local setting, I like to use magic to entertain, make friends, help people relax, and change the impression that Christians (esp pastors)are uptight super holy, legalistic etc.
People do not expect me to have a magic effect for every sermon ...

For outreach meetings, activities, special occassions, it is now almost an expectation (Been in this church for nearly 13 months now)especially with the children and guests (regular and new) which is fine with me. I think I have become wiser not to use too much magic by doing shorter routines that allow me to interact with my audience. I supplement with other fun stuff like quizzes, presentations, games etc (as part of a whole programme and not just the "message portion") Bottom line - magic is just one part and it's both part of the entertainment as well as the message.
Message: Posted by: ibm_usa (Feb 20, 2008 08:31PM)
Can A Trick Distract From The Message?

Yes if you put way too much emphasis on it

No, There is nothing on this planet, in this whole universe that is powerful enough to totally distract those who are wanting to hear God's word from having the chance! Those who believe that Gospel Illusions should be kept small are kidding themselves, that is ridiculous. One could spread the Gospel using large Illusions like those found in Copperfield's Show, just ask magicians like Kirby Van Birch! God's power and Word is more powerful then anything a card flipping magician or a box spinning illusionist has to offer.
Message: Posted by: ibm_usa (Feb 20, 2008 08:34PM)
But as a Christian Illusionist, I find it best to put on a High Quality show because of the High Standards I'm doing it for- I want to do the most excellent I can to glorify Christ, that means practice, rehearsal and more practice to make sure everything is right and not out of place.

Poor performances will distract viewers from the message.
Message: Posted by: ibm_usa (Feb 20, 2008 08:38PM)
Just remember to do your best, you will have your good days and your bad days in a ministry show. Just trust Christ will get through to those that need him.
Message: Posted by: Terry Holley (Feb 20, 2008 09:27PM)
Andre' Kole believes that the effect can over power the message. This is one of the reasons his magical illustration during the spiritual portion of his show is a smaller scale effect than the large scale illusions he presents during the other portion of his show.

Terry
Message: Posted by: Terry Owens (Feb 21, 2008 07:28AM)
Great insight folks...if the emphasis is on the magic, then yes it can mute the message we are trying to teach, but if we use magic as a tool to illustrate scriptures, with the emphasis on the word, then it becomes another good tool amongst many to help open the up the word to people...
Message: Posted by: ibm_usa (Feb 21, 2008 11:13AM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-20 22:27, Terry Holley wrote:
Andre' Kole believes that the effect can over power the message. This is one of the reasons his magical illustration during the spiritual portion of his show is a smaller scale effect than the large scale illusions he presents during the other portion of his show.

Terry
[/quote]

God's Word is too poweful for any Illusion. You can present the Gospel doing small scale effects and large scale effects, the larger scales may be a bit harder but it can be done. Just try it.
Message: Posted by: ibm_usa (Feb 21, 2008 11:17AM)
You can make the messages very obvious or very suttle, causing the viewers to think.

The small scale effects are best if the message is very obvious and too the point.

Large scale effects are best if the message is hidden but can be found. Terry Evanswood and Kirby Van Birch are masters at this.
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Feb 21, 2008 12:10PM)
Hi ibm_usa,

just a friendly suggestion first. Perhaps you can keep your comments in one post rather than breaking it into two or more, only minutes apart.

Why would you want to be very subtle with God's Word and take a huge chance that the message will not be heard? Just my opinion but I believe the message should be very clear, easy to understand so there's no mistake of misinterpretating it, and it should be very obvious. I also don't think we should be playing hide and seek with the message of Christ.
Message: Posted by: Payne (Feb 21, 2008 01:07PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-21 12:17, ibm_usa wrote:

Large scale effects are best if the message is hidden but can be found. Terry Evanswood and Kirby Van Birch are masters at this.

[/quote]

If you look at it in a certain way a great many illusions automatically contain a biblical "hidden message". Every vivisection and torture routine is built around the concept of death and resurrection. Unfortunately this classic this theme isn't reserved for Christianity alone. It is an ancient archetype found in many ancient stories and belief systems. So if you hide the message you could inadvertently lead your audience to follow Mithra or one of the other multitudes of Man\Gods who have walked the earth rather than your deity of choice.
Message: Posted by: Payne (Feb 21, 2008 01:19PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-20 21:31, ibm_usa wrote:

No, There is nothing on this planet, in this whole universe that is powerful enough to totally distract those who are wanting to hear God's word from having the chance!

[/quote]

Perhaps I'm not wanting to hear God's word but most of the Gospel presentations I've seen or read distract one from the message by diluting it. I even found Andre Kole's light bulb trick a distraction from the message he was trying to deliver. The film he played of the testimony of the young woman who was later to be killed in a school shooting did more to demonstrate the benefits of belief for some than any trick I've ever seen could do
.
Actions speak louder than words and words of personal testimony are better than magic tricks.
Use the magic to get them in to hear the words and see the actions.
Message: Posted by: ibm_usa (Feb 21, 2008 02:01PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-21 13:10, Gospel Dan wrote:
Hi ibm_usa,

just a friendly suggestion first. Perhaps you can keep your comments in one post rather than breaking it into two or more, only minutes apart.

Why would you want to be very subtle with God's Word and take a huge chance that the message will not be heard? Just my opinion but I believe the message should be very clear, easy to understand so there's no mistake of misinterpretating it, and it should be very obvious. I also don't think we should be playing hide and seek with the message of Christ.
[/quote]

Sorry.

The use of making the message subtle or obvious is a personal choice. I've seen Gospel Presentations presented in a subtle manner , a lot of movies have subtle messages in them, so do a lot of stories. Christ's parables, when told at first were subtle and He had to explain them to his disciples for they have not recieved wisdom to understand them ( That was before Christ's Resurrection.)

A lot of Kirby Van Birch's illusions have subtle Gospel messages in them.

Sorry for not making myself clear, if you are going to be very subtle, give some hints during the presentation or explain it at the end.
Message: Posted by: Terry Owens (Feb 21, 2008 02:37PM)
When someone's house is on fire, it's not time to be subtle
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Feb 21, 2008 04:35PM)
Thanks Terry. You took the words right out of my mouth. I don't recall anywhere in the Bible where God or Jesus was subtle.
Message: Posted by: FriarShaun (Feb 23, 2008 10:20AM)
I think doing gospel magic is twice as difficult. First, it is subject to poor performance and sorrowful skills just like the rest of magic, but second it can also be subject to poor application. I know that I have been guilty of trying to force a great trick into a spiritual application so I could use it. The trick was great, but the application was corny.

I have to admit I agree with Payne (and that is truly payneful) Personal testimony, and straight preaching of the truth is more powerful than gospel magic. However, I think magic is a great vehicle to connect with people and establish a rapor. We all know that we are sinners, to be pummelled with this ugly truth is valid, but not always prudent. Magic can be the "setting of silver" we use to present the "apples of gold" in.

By the way Payne as an athiest you make a good preacher.
Message: Posted by: Terry Owens (Feb 23, 2008 10:39AM)
Don't encourage him...we have enough people out there making up their own gospel...

I love you Payne....
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Feb 23, 2008 10:46AM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-23 11:20, FriarShaun wrote:
Magic can be the "setting of silver" we use to present the "apples of gold" in.[/quote]

I've never heard it said that way before. It's got to be one the best analogies I've ever heard. Thanks for sharing that, I love it!

[quote]By the way Payne as an athiest you make a good preacher..[/quote]

I've only been here for a short while, but I come to see that Payne is an asset to this forum. I love it when he posts something that challenges me to look deeper into my faith. He plays an important role here, and God bless him for that.
Message: Posted by: Terry Owens (Feb 23, 2008 10:53AM)
Gospel magic was originally created for teaching children and that is probably where it's most effective.
Message: Posted by: ibm_usa (Feb 23, 2008 05:01PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-23 11:20, FriarShaun wrote:
I think doing gospel magic is twice as difficult. First, it is subject to poor performance and sorrowful skills just like the rest of magic, but second it can also be subject to poor application. I know that I have been guilty of trying to force a great trick into a spiritual application so I could use it. The trick was great, but the application was corny.

I have to admit I agree with Payne (and that is truly payneful) Personal testimony, and straight preaching of the truth is more powerful than gospel magic. However, I think magic is a great vehicle to connect with people and establish a rapor. We all know that we are sinners, to be pummelled with this ugly truth is valid, but not always prudent. Magic can be the "setting of silver" we use to present the "apples of gold" in.

By the way Payne as an athiest you make a good preacher.
[/quote]

I have to disagree with both you and Payne; yes it can be a subject to poor application just like all the other arts, but magic is a great way to teach people, because magic is very visual you can easily make a point. I've heard it said that the human brain will only remember a small perportion of what is being said and will remember more from what it sees.

I garuntee you that each one of us can remember the very first magic trick. I am also assure that most of you can barely remember the last word you said last night to a person be it your spouse or a good friend.

Magic is a very effective visual media for communication, I find it a better tool to use then using a song or a sermon... people will remember it more.
Message: Posted by: ibm_usa (Feb 23, 2008 05:05PM)
As for preventing a gospel "trick" in becoming a poor application, practice traditional magic before moving into the field of Gospel Magic. Gain basic knowledge of magic. It wouldn't hurt to take a drama or speech and communication class. Also if you are gifted at scripting, do so!

Forgive those who have made Gospel Magic look bad, but I strongly discourage people who delibertly sought to make a bad image of any art, especially Gospel Magic. Practice and rehearse to make the presentation and message as excellent as you can. DO A EXCELLENT JOB! you are putting on a high standard when you enter the field of Gospel Magic, don't do a good job do a excellent job.
Message: Posted by: ibm_usa (Feb 23, 2008 05:07PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-23 11:53, Terry Owens wrote:
Gospel magic was originally created for teaching children and that is probably where it's most effective.
[/quote]

True, true, true. I have found that it works best with adults, but if you add humor it will work for kids.
Message: Posted by: ibm_usa (Feb 23, 2008 05:10PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-23 11:46, Gospel Dan wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-02-23 11:20, FriarShaun wrote:
Magic can be the "setting of silver" we use to present the "apples of gold" in.[/quote]

I've never heard it said that way before. It's got to be one the best analogies I've ever heard. Thanks for sharing that, I love it!

[quote]By the way Payne as an athiest you make a good preacher..[/quote]

I've only been here for a short while, but I come to see that Payne is an asset to this forum. I love it when he posts something that challenges me to look deeper into my faith. He plays an important role here, and God bless him for that.
[/quote]

Payne has brought some good insights into this entire website. spend some time to look at some of the stuff Payne has posted, you may learn something! It seems like he knew Einstien and Robert Houdin as well as King Soloman!
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Feb 23, 2008 09:52PM)
Ibm_usa wrote:
"Magic is a very effective visual media for communication, I find it a better tool to use then using a song or a sermon... people will remember it more."

Can you elaborate on that? From my understanding, you're saying that magic is a better tool to use than using song, or just a sermon? have you ever preached a sermon? Please elaborate, thanks.
Message: Posted by: ibm_usa (Feb 24, 2008 02:34PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-23 22:52, Gospel Dan wrote:
Ibm_usa wrote:
"Magic is a very effective visual media for communication, I find it a better tool to use then using a song or a sermon... people will remember it more."

Can you elaborate on that? From my understanding, you're saying that magic is a better tool to use than using song, or just a sermon? have you ever preached a sermon? Please elaborate, thanks.
[/quote]

I'm saying that magic can get and keep the attention of the people your performing for. Its visual, its something that people can look at. Now if the person who is singing or giving the sermon has good experience in communicating verbally, has good people skills and has a likable personallity then song or sermon will be just as good. I'm just saying it will hold attention better.
Message: Posted by: ibm_usa (Feb 24, 2008 02:38PM)
By the way has anyone used Gospel music as background music? I guess it could do wonders if your a grand illusionist and having trouble will gospel patter to the illusion. Adding gospel music in a place where it isn't expected could have its advantage.
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Feb 24, 2008 02:55PM)
I was going to comment back, but I'm just going to leave it alone. But, I am sorry that you think that way.
Message: Posted by: DoctorCognos (Feb 25, 2008 12:07AM)
There are many different individuals who need to hear the Gospel. And not all of them can be reached in the same way.

Magic is just another means of supporting communication of a message.

The Doctor