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Topic: XCM in a restaurant
Message: Posted by: Miikka (Feb 24, 2008 07:59AM)
Hey guys,

I found this quite interesting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkOkGE6pujE

This guy is performing XCM as a restaurant magician. I don't do any of this stuff (XCM), but I'd like to hear other magicians comments about this.

He get's some reactions, but I myself don't like the idea. What if you screws up, and the cards end up everywhere.


Looking to hear you thoughts,

Miikka Pakarinen
Message: Posted by: Stanyon (Feb 24, 2008 08:50AM)
More like juggling than magic. Didn't the little child with the drink seem interested? Maybe if the "entertainer" put on a red nose?

JMHO

Cheers! ;)
Message: Posted by: Larry Davidson (Feb 24, 2008 09:31AM)
If someone approached me at a restaurant and did that, I'd probably suffer two minutes of it before I told him, in a polite way, that he shouldn't mastur**** in public.
Message: Posted by: SoCalPro (Feb 24, 2008 10:52AM)
First of all, I don't even know what "XCM" is but judging by his performance, I don't care to know. This type of entertainment is not appropriate for any restaurant. The only one being entertained here is HIM.

Maybe we all should post a comment and let him know how we feel. Too many comments stroking his ego.
Message: Posted by: Magic_Steve (Feb 24, 2008 10:56AM)
I was pretty bored watching the video....impressive, kinda. Entertaining? not for me. :)

Posted: Feb 24, 2008 12:04pm
Just posted a comment...everyone give it thumbs up!
Message: Posted by: SoCalPro (Feb 24, 2008 11:18AM)
You watch Steve, we're gonna get flamed by a bunch of 12 year olds. :lol:
Message: Posted by: ROBERT BLAKE (Feb 24, 2008 11:25AM)
First of all if you as a magician, look at this then you as a magician will be bored because there is no trick.

a problem what these XCM (EXTREME CARD MANIPULATION)guys have is that they are so into thier selves with practicing the hard stuff. because of that the are boring because they lack energy and presentation.

his ribbonspreads are not impressive because the are not catched just above the floor.

the young man is still young but he has to work on his presentation AND personality.

my believ is that you can make a little routine with flouriches and make it entertaining but for that you need an entertainer.
Message: Posted by: Magic_Steve (Feb 24, 2008 11:25AM)
If you think about it, they're all just a bunch of flamers anyways!! :lol:
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Feb 24, 2008 11:28AM)
I was able to get through about a minute of it.
He was not very entertaining.

The standard quote applies...

"Before you can be entertaining with a deck of cards, you need to be entertaining without one".

This is the downfall of nearly all magicians when they start out and most magicians long afterwards.
Card tricks are not entertaining.
Card tricks are not entertaining.
Card tricks are not entertaining.
Card tricks are not entertaining.
Card tricks are not entertaining.
Card tricks are not entertaining.
Card tricks are not entertaining.
Card tricks are not entertaining.
Card tricks are not entertaining.
Card tricks are not entertaining.

If what I repeated several times offends you I'm sorry but you're probably a boring magician.

And watching a boring person show off is REALLY not entertaining.

This is the worst example of "card magic". A boring kid, staring at his hands, telling you everything he's doing, with no personality, just showing off.

This has every possible example of why magicians are laughed at and sent back to the back room to entertain children so the adults can be left to enjoy themselves.

Skillful AND entertaining. Not just skillful is what's required.

Too many "magicians" just don't get it.
Do you?
Message: Posted by: SoCalPro (Feb 24, 2008 11:33AM)
[quote]XCM (EXTREME CARD MANIPULATION)[/quote]

Oh, right, gotcha. :)

I'm not gonna me mean to him because I know he IS young and I am sure he won't take his magic to the next level and actually make a living at it. If he feels he needs to do that to make himself feel good, who am I to criticize him? To each his own, I choose to make a living entertaining other people and not just myself.

A flourish here and there during your performance if great but in a restaurant it's not a good idea to do NOTHING BUT at a table. :)
Message: Posted by: RicHeka (Feb 24, 2008 11:37AM)
He obviously put a lot of practice in to this,however,this is more akin to skateboarding than to 'artistic' manipulation with cards.

Regular folks are quickly bored with the stunts like this.This young fellow would do well to study someone like Jeff McBride,and learn how to create a theatrical performance using these abilities.Just a thought.

Rich

A.E.R.P.W.N.C.L.B.C.
Message: Posted by: SoCalPro (Feb 24, 2008 11:37AM)
You are right Frank, "Card tricks are not entertaining". It's up to the performer to make them entertaining. I did my 30 (more like 45) minute close up routine for an adults 40th. birthday party last night. There were about 25 adults present. My performance included about 85% card magic (it just hit me last night) but I made them entertaining, I had them in stitches the entire time. :)
Message: Posted by: Magic_Steve (Feb 24, 2008 11:43AM)
Cards are just tools, as are coins and other props. It's up to the magician to breathe life into them, to make them entertaining. Otherwise, EVERYTHING in magic is boring. :)
Message: Posted by: Miikka (Feb 24, 2008 11:51AM)
It's nice to hear people are on the same frequency with me. I think that some of hes moves could be easily incorporated into a card trick, but with his showmanship I highly doubt no tricks would save him.

But mostly I wonder how did he get the job...
Message: Posted by: SoCalPro (Feb 24, 2008 11:55AM)
[quote]But mostly I wonder how did he get the job...[/quote]

Guys like him work just tips or for little to nothing. I had a 12 year old guy move into one of my restaurants shortly after I did his bar mitzvah. Apparently he was so impressed with my magic that he wanted to be just like me. He worked for free the the owner liked that. Needless to say, I wasn't kept for to much longer. :mad:

But I digress........
Message: Posted by: Magic_Steve (Feb 24, 2008 11:56AM)
I wonder if he even works there, or just doing a "trial night" kinda thing...look at the way he's dressed. I'd never show up in a restaurant looking for a gig dressed like that....

Oh well....whatever. :rolleyes:
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Feb 24, 2008 12:14PM)
I don't think he got a job, did he? I thought it was just a competition.

I am not trying to be mean as the kid is young. No problem there.
Since it's on YouTube, however, people should know as soon as possible and as clearly as possible that this is NOT what to shoot for if you want to be a magician.

Hobbiesst? Sure. Go for it. Paid performance? Please!
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Feb 24, 2008 01:13PM)
I couldn't get the video to load but I ran into a bunch of the XCM kids a couple three years ago. First they were upset that I don't believe Devo exist, I think he is that guy, sorry I can't remember the name, in Colorado I think it is who puts out the XCM stuff but is really kind of boring so he created Devo. There was one kid who claimed to do nothing but a manip act in a restaurant so I asked him to do it. He said, and I'm not kidding, that he didn't have time because his table side manip act is....ready? Really, he said this....45 minutes long! That is right, he told me he did 45 minutes at each table!
Message: Posted by: SoCalPro (Feb 24, 2008 01:21PM)
Should of asked him what restaurants he is in and what time can you come by to catch his act. ;)
Message: Posted by: Larry Davidson (Feb 24, 2008 01:22PM)
I [b]guarantee[/b] you that he wouldn't do 45 minutes at my table...unless he could do the last 43 minutes with my butter knife stuck in his back.
Message: Posted by: jclark (Feb 24, 2008 04:07PM)
Hmmm. This thread struck me as interesting. So here are my thoughts.

You're talking about Jerry; he lives in CO and is often referred to as the "Flourishman". He's also the author of The Encyclopedia of Card Flourishes, a rather large compendium.

De'vo on the other hand is not Jerry, though people often make that assumption.
I met De'vo in Ulmen, Germany in late Feb 2007. I flew there after doing the Peter Eggink interview in Amsterdam just outside Schipol Airport. Went straight to Frankfurt and then drove for about 2 hours to the town of Ulmen, just outside of Cochem, which is fantastic city with great wine just off the Moselle. Saw the castle, met members of the Ulmen Four, and others who happen to be involved in what they call "XCM" or "Extreme Card Manipulation".

Have the passport stamp, photos, and my crew to prove it. But I agreed to not publish photos of De'vo, who has since become a friend. He also happens to be in the Guinness Book of World Records for the Coin Roll; sort of makes him a real person. I saw the certificate up on the wall at the pub he did it in. You can look it up for yourself.

XCM is not magic or juggling, but what many have come to accept as an independent art form of its own under the umbrella of manipulation itself. I personally don't do manipulations of this nature as I've neither the time, patience, dedication, or quite honestly the discipline to truly develop the techniques to perform manipulation like that. But I respect it none-the-less.

The kid in the video is actually executing some examples of what would be advanced manipulation; he is not a magician and makes no claims of such. And few of my magician friends have the dexterity, or the other attributes I mentioned above, to do what this kid is doing. He's not trying to get a job, he's not working for tips, he's simply performing manipulations to enter a contest.

In my estimation, he's not done anything wrong, he's not hurt anyone, and he at least has the intestinal fortitude to try. I see no reason to lambast, tear him down, or put my chest up in the air and claim what he is doing is a bad thing.

As to the paid performances, well, De'vo has had his hands and techniques featured in significant TV productions for MAJOR companies with considerable pay provided for his efforts; way more than I have EVER been given for a single performance ever... and I've made some pretty dang good money. He has performed for people in positions most magicians I know will never have the chance to meet simply because magicians are a dime a dozen in comparison and they rarely offer something out of the ordinary that separates them for the next magician out there. De'vo has lead the charge in manipulations like this including things like D'Ring, which is truly astounding and something to behold in person.

The Buck Twins, while not XCM-ers per se, were featured doing advanced manipulations like this in Smokin Aces--not magic tricks. They were attacked significantly by "magicians" when they first started out, many of whom have now come to accept them as the talented young men they are.

I also met a guy in Japan when I was working with Cyril who does nothing but card manipulation; no tricks, nadda. And he is quite respected there.

Chris Kenner, a man most of you would respect, developed manipulations with cards that many now use as standard. Same with Jeff McBride. I was over at his house some weeks back before he left for a tour in Asia and he expressed to me how much he respects De'vo for what he has done. Daryl expressed similar feelings and appeared on one of De'vo's DVDs called Xtreme Beginners.

I know of a young man in Asia who won an XCM competition with HandLordz and because of it was featured on countless TV programs (not to do magic mind you, but manipulation) and was recently offered a book deal.

There are many examples now of people using JUST manipulations to entertain and making WAY more money than you do with a set of sponge balls and a thumb tip. That's a fact. Sure, he is young and needs improvement, but that's where guys like you can come into play and help him grow.

Really, any skill is what you make of it. How you market yourself plays a big roll. And, of course, what the public wants to see impacts things too.

Learning and maturing over time is a process we ALL go through (or at least a dang sure hope so). But most importantly, sometimes just believing in yourself when others say you're crud without offering leadership is the way you have to move forward.

Imagine what that would be like... a world where the majority of magicians out there actually supported the upcoming generation by providing positive leadership instead of negative criticism at the on set as FIRST course, rather than the opposite. But who cares anyway, he's not a magician, just a 16 year old kid trying to have some fun doing something none of us here in this thread really do or understand ourselves anyway. He has no impact on us and prob doesn't even know any of us even exist. Heck, the only reason I know some of you is because you are customers or I see you rolling around the forums now and then. Heck, I don't even know if I truly exist! LOL

Best,
JC
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Feb 24, 2008 04:30PM)
Bravo JC!

Let's give the kid a break and show some respect to a fellow artist.

John
Message: Posted by: Larry Davidson (Feb 24, 2008 05:01PM)
I agree that he probably doesn't know that any of us exist and he probably also doesn't visit this site, so how could anything someone says on here hurt him?

My comment was not about him competing in a contest, it was about someone like him who might approach my table at a restaurant and did what he was doing in the WEB clip--showing off with no presentation. My reaction would have been the same if a juggler (which is what manipulation [b]for the sake of[/b] manipulation is), ventriloquist, whatever, did the same thing at my table.
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Feb 24, 2008 05:50PM)
I have seen many XCM artists and most are all about speed. But they go so fast you really can't appreciate what they are doing. I'm impressed by anyone who is good at what they do. This young boy is very good and he took his time and explained everything which I found helpful. I was interested all the way through and I appreciate his talent. He appears to be very new to performing in a restaurant setting. I think with time he could be quite the little showman. He certainly had the confidence. This performance wasn't stellar but he definitely has great potential.

I would tell him to not give up. He has a real talent and only time and experience will make it better. Bravo.

, Jonathan
Message: Posted by: SoCalPro (Feb 24, 2008 06:40PM)
I agree with the above posts (for the most part). I still believe that this type of entertainment while strolling is a bad idea. If this guy had just put this in front of a cam and not at a restaurant in a strolling environment, I would defiantly compliment him on a job well done. Just like James, I don't have the patients or the desire to learn what this kid does, so I am not putting him down for that. My problem lies within the environment that he is entertaining in.
Message: Posted by: MAKMagic (Feb 24, 2008 06:50PM)
I personally find some advanced flourishing worthy of much respect. It takes a lot to learn it. I do some flourishes mixed into my routines to add an extra touch of grace and class.

My issue- and auto-bad attitude torwards the XCM rulesz magicians and their little red ballz suk y0! crowd is just that. STFU - practice your art. If you don't like magic COOL! But don't run around thinking your better than the guy who performs magic instead of flourishing. I found the amazing things produced by the Handlordz crowd just that...amazing but the BS - y0 my military XCM connections will wish you never discovered a keyboard little cult following to be so big a put off I've had a negative attitude torward it since.

I respect flourishing and ANYONE that can get that big dollar with their Craft...that includes everyone mentioned above - big De'Vo included.

I don't apply this negative connotation to the entire XCM crowd...but the little cult of punks out there who run their mouths with all their mad skizillz need to grow up a tad. Respect is earned. Those whom disrespect out the gate have a much taller ladder to gain any...skills or no.
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Feb 24, 2008 06:57PM)
A lot of it is cool....but 45 minutes of anything at a tableside is too much!
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Feb 24, 2008 07:01PM)
Again, I don't think there's anything wrong with what he's doing and he is certainly skillful. He is not giving "an entertaining performance". Period. I'm sure one day he'll be great if he works on entertaining as hard as he works on the manipulation.

The original poster specifically asked our opinions about this kind of performance at a restaurant setting. And, as recorded on YouTube, it wouldn't be good.

We are being respectful and giving him a break. Several have commented on his skills being good.
Message: Posted by: Josh Chaikin (Feb 24, 2008 07:23PM)
Given what we know, which is little to nothing, we're making awfully big assumptions. The video says it was for a contest, and it said that it was "round 9" the "live performance." Who's to say he wasn't out with his family for dinner, and filmed there? Seems to me that's the most likely explanation.

Then again, I could be making assumptions and drawing conclusions too.
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Feb 24, 2008 10:21PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-24 20:23, Josh Chaikin wrote:
Given what we know, which is little to nothing, we're making awfully big assumptions. The video says it was for a contest, and it said that it was "round 9" the "live performance." Who's to say he wasn't out with his family for dinner, and filmed there? Seems to me that's the most likely explanation.

Then again, I could be making assumptions and drawing conclusions too.
[/quote]

Yes that is what I thought was going on. He just filmed this one performance live as a submission to the contest.
Message: Posted by: pepka (Feb 24, 2008 11:52PM)
I hope they're not judging him on personality. I got about halfway through the video and had to kill it. One of the worst videos I've seen on YouTube. And there is a lot of crap on YouTube. Larry was right, this is not magic, it's masturbation. I use a few flourishy thing like this in my act, but a little can really go a long way. 45 minutes? Does this guy not know that you NEVER perform when there is food on the table? I could take about 3 minutes of that and I'd have to ask him to leave. Or better yet, I'd be like one of the annoying spectators we've all dealt with and say "Here, let me show you something."
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 25, 2008 12:11AM)
I hope I can get this out without the usual suspects just dragging this down because it is me saying it.

First off I found it the only magician ever working where kids were running around the room and didn't give a hoot LOL.

As for the "performace" was I to believe that this was some set up sort of contest, and the "live performance" was part of this? I mean he was working at a fast food place basically, not where most would imagine a restaurant worker to be. I don't think the kid claims to be a restaurant worker per se, just that this was part of some contest. If this was answered I appologise. But that makes me cut the kid some slack in that case.

Is he a great "performer"? Obviously not. Is he trying to be? Well from what I can see no so I don't really hold that against him. He likes the moves, for himself. I am not sure he cares if anyone else does. He will find out soon enough on his own that people don't watch that for long. Again I cut him some slack. It seems like some sort of new breed of "move monkey" has evolved in the art.

As for "Extreme Card Manipulation", I find the term laughable. Why does everyone under the age of 20 (plus Criss Angel) over use the term EXTREME as some sort of new marketing ploy? What exactly was so "extreme" or even new in what he did? I have more problems with the goofy terms than I do with the kid LOL.

Would it work in a restaurant? Please no need to even worry about it. The kid in this viceo does not even seem as if he wants to work them, so I cut him a lot of slack.

Now those prone to do so may just flame me for whatever reason they find. Wheather they agree or not, just flame away.
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Feb 25, 2008 01:01AM)
I think all that is going on here is this young guy entered a contest where you submit videos of yourself doing Extreme Card Manipulations. In this phase of the contest he needed to film himself doing it in front of a live audience. He was probably eating here with his family and gave some guy a camera to film him so he could enter it into the contest. All harmless fun. The best I could do at his age was back palm a card and a french drop. I think the kid is pretty impressive and could definitely have a future in magic or some kind of entertaining. I started riding a unicycle and now I'm making a living doing card tricks. Who would of thought.

This kid has great confidence which is one of the main things that stops most career entertainers and he has great hand eye coordination and dexterity.I think he will have a great future where ever his talents take him.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 25, 2008 01:07AM)
Nobody says he HAS to do card tricks. If he does not want too, then no biggie. He may very well be happy doing just this. Which is great also.
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Feb 25, 2008 01:19AM)
This is the closest I come to Extreme Card Manipulation and its probably only because of the music I use.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPFjYSo2IOg
Message: Posted by: jclark (Feb 25, 2008 01:36AM)
Danny, GREAT to see you man. I really NEVER come around anymore, which sort of sucks given that I have some wonderful friends at this place. But hey, got to work right? But you might find it interesting that R. Paul Wilson once made fun of De'vo (or so I am told) about using the term "Extreme" and then recently, well, he and L&L just put out a four DVD set using the same word! And don't get me wrong, I love most of Paul's stuff and get along with him just fine. But goes to show you that it isn't just the 20 year olds doing it <giggles>. Heck for me, extreme these days is just getting out of the office or away from the studio. Best to all, and to all a good night. JC
Message: Posted by: state (Feb 25, 2008 06:06AM)
All I can say is WOW on the mechanics. Imagine if this kid focused all his energy on Magic. I'm sure there's not a single sleight he couldn't do.
Message: Posted by: karbonkid (Feb 25, 2008 06:35AM)
"Card tricks are not entertaining."

My favorite line of the whole entire thread. I think that you should insert "Frank Starsini's" into that beginning of that sentence.

I do like how everyone attacks the kid, then proceeds to roll back once the facts are more closely examined. It's quite obvious that the kid doesn't work in a resturant, and had you read, but that would need attention, but simply read the title card, you'd know the video's purpose.
Message: Posted by: Larry Davidson (Feb 25, 2008 07:45AM)
Karbonkid (what's your real name by the way?),

No rolling back here, nor has there been rolling back on the part of some others "once the facts are more closely examined" as you put it.

Why have I and some others "attacked" (your word, not mine) this kid? Maybe it has something to do with the title of this thread and the purpose of this section of the Café. The title of this thread is "XCM [b]in a restaurant[/b]" and the purpose of this section of the Café is "General discussion on working restaurants and bars, as well as doing strolling magic."

For the most part, there have been two types of discussions in this thread. The first type, of which I've been a part, relates to the title of this thread and the purpose of this section. The second type concerns his technical dexterity, and nobody has said anything negative about that.

Had this thread been posted in the section entitled "Pasteboard frolics," the purpose of which is, "Do you take card flourishes seriously? Then this is the forum for you!" my guess is that the focus of the comments made would have been different.

The attack on Frank Starsini or anyone else without focusing on the specific comments they made is nothing more than an ad hominem attack.

I recently read a telling quote of Socrates', "The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing." That quote is in the signature line of your profile.

Larry Davidson
Message: Posted by: Christopher Lyle (Feb 25, 2008 10:14AM)
Ok...so two signs of the coin here...

All the XCM/DEVO stuff "is" impressive. I look at it like juggling. However...like juggling, after a while of watching, it becomes tiresome. I'll give the kid props for being able to do it, but I too would have stopped him after about 30 seconds and asked him to either show me a trick or move on.

I don't know...the XCM stuff just doesn't really do much for me as it doesn't really hold any life to it in our craft. A flourish here and there...yeah!!!! But a whole act of flourishes.....? Hmmmm...I don't think so...
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 25, 2008 10:30AM)
Larry is right. Absolutly right.

It is not an attack to say that this is boring as can be and I would rather watch paint dry than to see this at a restaurant. It is simply true.

I looked a bit past it but that does not make Larry or anyone who expressed this opinion wrong at all. The kid is a poor "performer" but a fantastic "move monkey".

Like I said I think we have found a whole new breed of move monkey. But not one that is suited to entertain people at a restaurant. I don't know why Larry is getting so much heat. (although Larry I gotta say it is nice for ONCE that it is not me! LOL)
Message: Posted by: Larry Davidson (Feb 25, 2008 10:47AM)
Danny,

Like you, I don't avoid posting an opinion just because it might not be popular or because someone might not understand it. If everyone always agreed with everyone else, magic wouldn't progress much and life would be boring. Anyway, what's not to like about heat when it's 40 friggin degrees outside? :baby:

Larry
Message: Posted by: karbonkid (Feb 25, 2008 10:47AM)
Dear Larry,

I think you aren't reading the same post I'm reading. I come here quite frequently to read the nuggets of wisdom. But my take on the video was that he just happened to be in a resturant and performing, probably told the people about said competition, and then they agreed to let him perform. You know why I think that? Because the OPENING of the video said it was a performance for a competition! Everyone here is critiquing him for having some sort of 'gig' or peformance personality, etc. I said that it's quite obvious that the kid doesn't work in a resturant, and had you read that, we wouldn't be having this discussion right now, but, it's funny that everyone chimes in on the 'what if', 'this will never work', and 'if he does...blah blah blah'. I've put some quotes from this thread so you can see what I'm referencing. In a nutshell, tell the kid to stop masterbating, tune him out, and put on a red nose, are simply but a few and everyone is just bashing the kid for no reason. But, again, I'll recap them for you in case you forgot:

"This guy is performing XCM as a restaurant magician...He get's some reactions, but I myself don't like the idea."

-- Miikka


"More like juggling than magic. Didn't the little child with the drink seem interested? Maybe if the "entertainer" put on a red nose?"

-- Stanyon

"If someone approached me at a restaurant and did that, I'd probably suffer two minutes of it before I told him, in a polite way, that he shouldn't mastur**** in public."

-- Larry Davidson (Yourself)

"First of all, I don't even know what "XCM" is but judging by his performance, I don't care to know. This type of entertainment is not appropriate for any restaurant."

-- SoCalPro

"This is the downfall of nearly all magicians when they start out and most magicians long afterwards.
Card tricks are not entertaining."

-- Frank Starsini


As to Frank...the whole card tricks are not entertaining is just laughable. It's making a broad stroke judgement about a whole set of magic that is one of the fundemental building blocks of our artform. I'm not claiming to know everything, but, that I do know. I'd like to see Frank say that to any one of the people that peform well with cards, like a Bill Malone, John Bannon, or a David Williamson.

As for my name, that's the most laughable thing. What does it matter? Is it so you can assess my comments by adding a name to them? If you could, would it make that much of a difference how you took them? I'm pretty sure it wouldn't, so I don't bother.

As for the quote, maybe you and Frank Starsini should read it and take it to heart...as well as everyone else before making large assumptions about someone's performance. To recap why that is an issue, see paragraph 1, sentence 2. I do applaud you for reading it though...and I'm glad you liked it.
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Feb 25, 2008 10:47AM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-25 07:35, karbonkid wrote:
"Card tricks are not entertaining."

My favorite line of the whole entire thread. I think that you should insert "Frank Starsini's" into that beginning of that sentence.

I do like how everyone attacks the kid, then proceeds to roll back once the facts are more closely examined. It's quite obvious that the kid doesn't work in a resturant, and had you read, but that would need attention, but simply read the title card, you'd know the video's purpose.
[/quote]

I knew someone would miss the entire point of my post. Turns out it was you.
Well done!
Message: Posted by: karbonkid (Feb 25, 2008 10:49AM)
I figured the point you were trying to make was repeated in upwards of ten or so times.

"If what I repeated several times offends you I'm sorry but you're probably a boring magician."

Am I still missing something?
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Feb 25, 2008 10:59AM)
Yes, you're missing something.

I think Bill Malone, John Bannon, or a David Williamson would all agree that card tricks are not entertaining. It's not the tricks. It's the person that is entertaining. It doesn't matter what Bill Malone does, it will be entertaining. Why? Because Bill is entertaining.

The tricks themselves are not entertaining.

The kid in the video above has simply not achieved that part of what he's doing yet.

And most beginning magicians are enamored with the tricks themselves which is why their performances are not entertaining. Once they figure out that there is a completely different side to performing magic, then they work on that part of it and succeed. Or they stick with thinking the tricks are "the thing" and they fail.

That's all.

And I perform card magic all the time at my paid gigs. But only tricks that I've made entertaining.
Message: Posted by: karbonkid (Feb 25, 2008 11:10AM)
That, what you just stated, I completely agree with. However, in the rise of XCM (of which I do not thinks fits me in the slightest), they are all about magic for themselves as a group. Considering that some of the leaders of said XCM only show their hands and the juggling, it's kind of strange that a competition would require performance, but, apparently it did.

I take card magic very very seriously. It disappoints me that people, especially in the magic community, think so lowly of it because it is such an impactful and full force prop requiring nothing more than knowledge to make normal objects become borderline, or seemingly, supernatural.

It's the same wave of disdain people have for mentalism, which, not unlike card magic, requires another level of performance to really make it impactful.

So, my only concern with people and them critiquing this kid is that his performance is not intended to be a 'performance' other than it being for a somewhat live audience. Since the intention of the kid is one thing, and people have taken it out of context and analyzed it as another, it's just really poor on our part as a community dedicated to magicians and magic.
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Feb 25, 2008 11:36AM)
The original post asked about this type of performance at a restaurant. Which I think most of us agree would not go over very well. I think the critiques were accurate.

BUT...

You're probably correct that it was not intended to be a performance. In that respect, we've taken it out of context in terms of what the kid was doing and it was a bit harsh. Not so good.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 25, 2008 11:43AM)
I don't happen to like this new breed of move monkey. LOL.

Frank makes such a valid point I hate to see it lost. It is not "magic" that entertains, but the magic.

"It's the singer not the song, that makes the music move along"----- Roger Daltry of The Who.
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Feb 25, 2008 12:05PM)
There are pessimists and optimists here. I choose to be the optimist. I think the boy in the video did a fine job for the context of what he was doing. Which was filming himself live for the contest. This young boy did not give his permission to have his video critiqued and analyzed with the notion that XCM be performed in a restaurant. That was not his objective at all.

If there was a mistake made I think it was by the original poster who included this video as a demonstration of XCM in a restaurant. Which it is clearly not.

We need to ask the question without this video as a guide. Can XCM be done in a restaurant? I think it could be. You would just have to figure out a way to make it entertaining or interesting to an audience. I'm sure the first guy who thought of doing card tricks in a restaurant or balloon animals was told the same thing. "Why would people want to watch you do that?" Then someone discovered an entertaining way to present it and now its a career for many.

Tom Noddy has been doing his bubble act for 30 years!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=np4n5PPIa38&feature=related

, Jonathan
Message: Posted by: Larry Davidson (Feb 25, 2008 12:25PM)
Karbonkid,

Which specific quote do you believe I haven't taken to heart?

I've read all the postings in this thread, I don't need my memory refreshed, and I stand by all of my comments including, "If someone approached me at a restaurant and did that, I'd probably suffer two minutes of it before I told him, in a polite way, that he shouldn't mastur**** in public."

For whatever reason, when a thread is posted in the wrong section, you object to comments, such as mine, that are consistent with the title of the thread and the purpose of the particular section in which that thread is posted. Note that I didn't say that the kid was performing at a restaurant gig, I said [b]if[/b] someone approached me in a restaurant and did this, etc. I haven't taken the WEB clip out of the context of the purpose of this thread and this area of the Café.

Consistent with the purpose of my postings and some postings made by others, kammagic asks a good question, "Can XCM be done in a restaurant?" My answer to that question is [b]probably[/b], as long as it's accompanied by an entertaining presentation instead of solely to show off (I have the same opinion about magic). Likewise, traditional juggling could probably be done in a restaurant, again assuming that it's accompanied by an entertaining presentation. The reason that I said probably instead of definitely is that I'd imagine some patrons might not be comfortable having someone do extreme manipulation of objects, whether they be cards or traditional juggling props, [b]very close to the table[/b], for fear that the performer might drop those objects on the food or the patrons themselves. For that reason, I'd think that at a minimum, a safe distance between the performer and the patrons would be necessary.

Larry
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 25, 2008 12:26PM)
Jonathan, your actually on to a point.

It was kind of what I was getting at actually. I don't think asking the question if this stuff will work in a restaurant is really the right question.

Could "someone" make it work? Probably. Again, it does not matter what is being done half as much as who is doing it really. So the premise that it is not the magic but the magician bakcs up this position quite well.

I also said earlier, I doubt this kid even wants to do that. He seems quite happy entertaining himsself. Which is fine. The original poster did kind of put the kid out of context, and that is not fair really.
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Feb 25, 2008 12:33PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-25 13:05, kammagic wrote:Can XCM be done in a restaurant? I think it could be. You would just have to figure out a way to make it entertaining [b]or[/b] interesting to an audience.
[/quote]
Change the "or" to "and" and you've got it exactly correct. :)
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Feb 25, 2008 01:24PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-25 13:25, Larry Davidson wrote:
Karbonkid,

Which specific quote do you believe I haven't taken to heart?

I've read all the postings in this thread, I don't need my memory refreshed, and I stand by all of my comments including, "If someone approached me at a restaurant and did that, I'd probably suffer two minutes of it before I told him, in a polite way, that he shouldn't mastur**** in public."

For whatever reason, when a thread is posted in the wrong section, you object to comments, such as mine, that are consistent with the title of the thread and the purpose of the particular section in which that thread is posted. Note that I didn't say that the kid was performing at a restaurant gig, I said [b]if[/b] someone approached me in a restaurant and did this, etc. I haven't taken the WEB clip out of the context of the purpose of this thread and this area of the Café.

Consistent with the purpose of my postings and some postings made by others, kammagic asks a good question, "Can XCM be done in a restaurant?" My answer to that question is [b]probably[/b], as long as it's accompanied by an entertaining presentation instead of solely to show off (I have the same opinion about magic). Likewise, traditional juggling could probably be done in a restaurant, again assuming that it's accompanied by an entertaining presentation. The reason that I said probably instead of definitely is that I'd imagine some patrons might not be comfortable having someone do extreme manipulation of objects, whether they be cards or traditional juggling props, [b]very close to the table[/b], for fear that the performer might drop those objects on the food or the patrons themselves. For that reason, I'd think that at a minimum, a safe distance between the performer and the patrons would be necessary.

Larry
[/quote]

Larry,

"I'd probably suffer two minutes of it before I told him, in a polite way, that he shouldn't mastur**** in public."

This quote is very unprofessional. In reality if you said something like that to me you would be asked by management to apologize and if you refused you would be asked to leave and if you refused to leave you would be *politely* escorted out by our 8 bouncers.

,Jonathan
Message: Posted by: jclark (Feb 25, 2008 01:26PM)
Here's the guy I mentioned before. He's a professional in real life: educated, family man, involved in his community, et cetra. He's a grown man, not a neophyte and does XCM for fun; he won the 2006 comp with Handlordz. End result, he's been featured on variety shows, et cetra because there are segments of the population (in most countries) that do enjoy watching this particular display of art.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IbBm4suXho

Do I think the best venue for XCM is an eatery? Well, can't really say. Prob not. Besides, there are plenty of magicians who do that anyway. But I think any performer with skill and a personality can easily pull ofs sharpening a chainsaw or playing a kazoo if he/she understands how to connect with the audience, which is something magicians need to know too. I've met plenty who have the personality of a door knob (but they think they're God's gift to magic).

I did feel as if there were a number of ad hominem attacks, which prompted me to post in the first place. And most recently, Larry you used that particular fallacy as a point of contention, which is sort of funny when you accuse Karbonkid of it only to do the same thing a sentence later using a quote from Socrates. LOL.

BTW, fallacies of argumentation just happen to be a topic I studied pretty seriously in undergrad and then in law school, so I'm more than happy to pick any of the posts apart where needed, but I don't think it is needed at this juncture or would serve any positive purpose. So please excuse that somewhat boastful digression, and allow me to make a point. And that is...

While I have no interest in slinging it out with anyone here as it won't get any of us anywhere, it isn't hard for someone to apply just a little logic and intellect when they read some of the quick posts made here in this thread; if you do, you may just see that the tone and latent points are a bit harsh, negative, boastful, and, well, perhaps even arrogant. If the shoe fits, wear it or learn from it and take it off. If not, then ignore it. Either way, it is your call. For me, this isn't an attack, just an observation and, well, one man's perception of the thread.

Fact is, I applaud anyone who performs at any venue, paid or not, perfect or not. Yes, some do make my skin crawl (as noted above) but I'm more likely to take the guy aside and share something with him that I hope will help him grow as a performer with, "Hey, forgive me, but I'd like to share something with you as both a spectator and performer that you may be able to use to increase your success here at the Red Robbin..." or whatever. THEN put the butter knife in his back, IF, and ONLY IF, I really understand what the F I'm talking about... LOL.

Just because you happen to work at Denny's as the House Magician or happen to be on a TV show, doesn't make you any more cool or necessarily a better person or performer than the next guy, so share you view with tact and in a positive way; it's the right thing to do in all occasions, even if the person sucks, and even if you think you are the best on the planet. Humility and respect goes a long way in life and, in my estimation, is one of the main reasons Cyril is SO DANG successful.

For me, as Danny and I once discussed, it often boils down to this: are you doing what makes you happy without hurting anyone else? If so, bravo. All the better if you can manage to make a high 6-figure living doing it, pay your bills, feed your family, keep a roof over heads, and get to take the occasional jont to Europe for a vacation.

I know one thing for sure, as much as like to socialize with people, I have a job to do. And funny enough, the people I respect, admire, and want to emulate the most in life are out working and doing what they love, not here on the Café pontificating like I am right now.

Sooooo that said, I'm going to quit acting like I'm important and get back to work. Have to fly to LA for a TV show meeting in the morning... ahhh, now that feels good <giggles/evil laugh>.

Take care guys, I wish you all the best!

James
Message: Posted by: sleightofand (Feb 25, 2008 01:40PM)
I woudn't personally do xcm in a restaurant in fact hardly at all. I was learning it but after showing a few people a bit of xcm they wasn't bothered so a don't do it anymore. I'll just stick with the magic I know is best. When we get a chance to show someone a few tricks, it should be the most impressive magic that you do so it leaves a stamp on them. What would you prefer to do. Do something impressive like read there mind, or bore them with how great your skills are with a pack of cards by "juggling" them?
Message: Posted by: Larry Davidson (Feb 25, 2008 02:19PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-25 14:24, kammagic wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-02-25 13:25, Larry Davidson wrote:
Karbonkid,

Which specific quote do you believe I haven't taken to heart?

I've read all the postings in this thread, I don't need my memory refreshed, and I stand by all of my comments including, "If someone approached me at a restaurant and did that, I'd probably suffer two minutes of it before I told him, in a polite way, that he shouldn't mastur**** in public."

For whatever reason, when a thread is posted in the wrong section, you object to comments, such as mine, that are consistent with the title of the thread and the purpose of the particular section in which that thread is posted. Note that I didn't say that the kid was performing at a restaurant gig, I said [b]if[/b] someone approached me in a restaurant and did this, etc. I haven't taken the WEB clip out of the context of the purpose of this thread and this area of the Café.

Consistent with the purpose of my postings and some postings made by others, kammagic asks a good question, "Can XCM be done in a restaurant?" My answer to that question is [b]probably[/b], as long as it's accompanied by an entertaining presentation instead of solely to show off (I have the same opinion about magic). Likewise, traditional juggling could probably be done in a restaurant, again assuming that it's accompanied by an entertaining presentation. The reason that I said probably instead of definitely is that I'd imagine some patrons might not be comfortable having someone do extreme manipulation of objects, whether they be cards or traditional juggling props, [b]very close to the table[/b], for fear that the performer might drop those objects on the food or the patrons themselves. For that reason, I'd think that at a minimum, a safe distance between the performer and the patrons would be necessary.

Larry
[/quote]

Larry,

"I'd probably suffer two minutes of it before I told him, in a polite way, that he shouldn't mastur**** in public."

This quote is very unprofessional. In reality if you said something like that to me you would be asked by management to apologize and if you refused you would be asked to leave and if you refused to leave you would be *politely* escorted out by our 8 bouncers.

,Jonathan
[/quote]

Jonathan,

With all due respect, I don't need advice on being a professional.

Did you know what I meant when I said that I'd "politely" tell him that? Let me explain, not because I have to, but so that you realize that maybe jumping to conclusions isn't always the best thing to do.

I would not use the words "mastur**** in public," I would convey that message in a polite way, meaning that I would tell him (probably by pulling him to the side) that he was very tehcnially adept, but that he should focus as much time working on entertaining people, and I'd explain why. I'd do this for his benefit, not for mine. No need to sick those big scary bouncers on me.

Larry
Message: Posted by: MAKMagic (Feb 25, 2008 02:28PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-25 14:24, kammagic wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-02-25 13:25, Larry Davidson wrote:
Karbonkid,

Which specific quote do you believe I haven't taken to heart?

I've read all the postings in this thread, I don't need my memory refreshed, and I stand by all of my comments including, "If someone approached me at a restaurant and did that, I'd probably suffer two minutes of it before I told him, in a polite way, that he shouldn't mastur**** in public."

For whatever reason, when a thread is posted in the wrong section, you object to comments, such as mine, that are consistent with the title of the thread and the purpose of the particular section in which that thread is posted. Note that I didn't say that the kid was performing at a restaurant gig, I said [b]if[/b] someone approached me in a restaurant and did this, etc. I haven't taken the WEB clip out of the context of the purpose of this thread and this area of the Café.

Consistent with the purpose of my postings and some postings made by others, kammagic asks a good question, "Can XCM be done in a restaurant?" My answer to that question is [b]probably[/b], as long as it's accompanied by an entertaining presentation instead of solely to show off (I have the same opinion about magic). Likewise, traditional juggling could probably be done in a restaurant, again assuming that it's accompanied by an entertaining presentation. The reason that I said probably instead of definitely is that I'd imagine some patrons might not be comfortable having someone do extreme manipulation of objects, whether they be cards or traditional juggling props, [b]very close to the table[/b], for fear that the performer might drop those objects on the food or the patrons themselves. For that reason, I'd think that at a minimum, a safe distance between the performer and the patrons would be necessary.

Larry
[/quote]

Larry,

"I'd probably suffer two minutes of it before I told him, in a polite way, that he shouldn't mastur**** in public."

This quote is very unprofessional. In reality if you said something like that to me you would be asked by management to apologize and if you refused you would be asked to leave and if you refused to leave you would be *politely* escorted out by our 8 bouncers.

,Jonathan
[/quote]

Proffesional or no....as the customer I highly doubt the management would ask someone to apologize to the help and I'd bet a months pay they wouldn't have me escorted out on refusal. In this particular case, the management would surely agree that the customer is an *** and leave it at that.
Message: Posted by: Larry Davidson (Feb 25, 2008 02:48PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-25 14:26, jclark wrote:
“...I did feel as if there were a number of ad hominem attacks, which prompted me to post in the first place. And most recently, Larry you used that particular fallacy as a point of contention, which is sort of funny when you accuse Karbonkid of it only to do the same thing a sentence later using a quote from Socrates. LOL...”
[/quote]

The reason that I included that quote is that it’s in his own profile, which I found ironic. No, I do not agree that any of my comments constituted an ad hominem attack, because I answered his argument instead of attacking his character. He engaged in an ad hominem attack when he said that Frank Starsini’s card tricks are not entertaining, an immature reply.

[quote]
On 2008-02-25 14:26, jclark wrote:

“...I'm more likely to take the guy aside and share something with him that I hope will help him grow as a performer....”
[/quote]

Read my last posting clarifying what I’d likely do.

[quote]
On 2008-02-25 14:26, jclark wrote:

“...THEN put the butter knife in his back, IF, and ONLY IF, I really understand what the F I'm talking about...LOL.”

[/quote]
Hmm, what kind of attack was that?

[quote]
On 2008-02-25 14:26, jclark wrote:

“...I studied pretty seriously in undergrad and then in law school, so I'm more than happy to pick any of the posts apart where needed, but I don't think it is needed at this juncture or would serve any positive purpose. So please excuse that somewhat boastful digression...I'm going to quit acting like I'm important and get back to work. Have to fly to LA for a TV show meeting in the morning...ahhh, now that feels good.”
[/quote]

Who would ever reach the conclusion, using “logic and intellect,” that you think you’re important?

This thread has taken a seriously silly turn.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 25, 2008 02:48PM)
James after his boastfulness LOL has a sort of point! If he is hurting nobody bravo for this kid.

As for the rest of it, Jonathan do you TRY to make people upset with you. If not then let me ask this question. ok for a second pretend you WERE trying to tick off Larry. How would your actions be any different? I mean why say that to him?

The very idea that any fictitious number of bouncers would see anyone out because they didn't enjoy the entertainment is silly. I KNOW you work places man why would you say this? I KNOW YOU KNOW BETTER.

In Key Largo we had a piano player. People would say he needed to learn new songs, he sucked and such. Guess what Jonathan, HE was let go! The customers were not seen out.

On what restaurant management theory do you claim people would be thrown out if they didn't like some boring kid after 2 minutes and told him to scram, with ANY language they see fit? Do you really think THAT much of yourself?

Are you telling me a customer has never been rude to you? For that is all we are talking about here, rude behavior. Which by the way Larry clarified his statement so it was not even that, but lets say it was. You are trying to tell us that the management would throw out a customer with force, JUST for rude words? Oh lord are you battling the flu still? You can't be serious.

Like I said I KNOW YOU ARE A WORKER, you can't believe this stuff! Please tell me there is a clarification in our future. I was agreeing with you about this kid if you noticed. But man you seem to ask people to slag you here and for no reason.
Message: Posted by: Larry Davidson (Feb 25, 2008 02:55PM)
By the way, to be fair, I can understand how someone who doesn't know me or my sense of humor would misinterpret the initial words that I used. I'm more than a little sarcastic, but I do stand by the intent of everything that I wrote.

Also, of course I wouldn't stick a butter knife in someone's back. A steak knife, on the other hand (see the sarcasm? :baby:).
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 25, 2008 03:17PM)
How about a spoon?
Message: Posted by: Magic_Steve (Feb 25, 2008 03:19PM)
[quote]
Proffesional or no....as the customer I highly doubt the management would ask someone to apologize to the help and I'd bet a months pay they wouldn't have me escorted out on refusal. In this particular case, the management would surely agree that the customer is an *** and leave it at that.
[/quote]

Couldn't have said it any better myself. Unless the customer is threatening violence, then there is no way in hell the management is going to remove a paying customer from the restaurant because he was being an ass....NEVER GONNA HAPPEN. EVER.

:)
Message: Posted by: Larry Davidson (Feb 25, 2008 03:22PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-25 16:17, Dannydoyle wrote:
How about a spoon?
[/quote]

My wife used to ask me to do that, but I've been married 22 years now.
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Feb 25, 2008 03:58PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-25 16:22, Larry Davidson wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-02-25 16:17, Dannydoyle wrote:
How about a spoon?
[/quote]

My wife used to ask me to do that, but I've been married 22 years now.
[/quote]
*rim shot*
Message: Posted by: Larry Davidson (Feb 25, 2008 04:12PM)
Frank, what does a Harry Lorayne book have to do with this?
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Feb 25, 2008 04:15PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-25 15:19, Larry Davidson wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-02-25 14:24, kammagic wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-02-25 13:25, Larry Davidson wrote:
Karbonkid,

Which specific quote do you believe I haven't taken to heart?

I've read all the postings in this thread, I don't need my memory refreshed, and I stand by all of my comments including, "If someone approached me at a restaurant and did that, I'd probably suffer two minutes of it before I told him, in a polite way, that he shouldn't mastur**** in public."

For whatever reason, when a thread is posted in the wrong section, you object to comments, such as mine, that are consistent with the title of the thread and the purpose of the particular section in which that thread is posted. Note that I didn't say that the kid was performing at a restaurant gig, I said [b]if[/b] someone approached me in a restaurant and did this, etc. I haven't taken the WEB clip out of the context of the purpose of this thread and this area of the Café.

Consistent with the purpose of my postings and some postings made by others, kammagic asks a good question, "Can XCM be done in a restaurant?" My answer to that question is [b]probably[/b], as long as it's accompanied by an entertaining presentation instead of solely to show off (I have the same opinion about magic). Likewise, traditional juggling could probably be done in a restaurant, again assuming that it's accompanied by an entertaining presentation. The reason that I said probably instead of definitely is that I'd imagine some patrons might not be comfortable having someone do extreme manipulation of objects, whether they be cards or traditional juggling props, [b]very close to the table[/b], for fear that the performer might drop those objects on the food or the patrons themselves. For that reason, I'd think that at a minimum, a safe distance between the performer and the patrons would be necessary.

Larry
[/quote]

Larry,

"I'd probably suffer two minutes of it before I told him, in a polite way, that he shouldn't mastur**** in public."

This quote is very unprofessional. In reality if you said something like that to me you would be asked by management to apologize and if you refused you would be asked to leave and if you refused to leave you would be *politely* escorted out by our 8 bouncers.

,Jonathan
[/quote]

Jonathan,

With all due respect, I don't need advice on being a professional.

Did you know what I meant when I said that I'd "politely" tell him that? Let me explain, not because I have to, but so that you realize that maybe jumping to conclusions isn't always the best thing to do.

I would not use the words "mastur**** in public," I would convey that message in a polite way, meaning that I would tell him (probably by pulling him to the side) that he was very tehcnially adept, but that he should focus as much time working on entertaining people, and I'd explain why. I'd do this for his benefit, not for mine. No need to sick those big scary bouncers on me.

Larry
[/quote]

So the mastur**** comment was for your own enjoyment?

Sorry couldn't resist.
Message: Posted by: Larry Davidson (Feb 25, 2008 04:34PM)
Get a grip.

Sorry couldn't resist.
Message: Posted by: jclark (Feb 25, 2008 04:38PM)
Dang, sucked in again...
Couldn't resist. ROFLOL
Message: Posted by: Larry Davidson (Feb 25, 2008 05:03PM)
Nothing wrong with feeling cocky occasionally.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 25, 2008 05:37PM)
Can you imagine this kid showing that to Vernon at the castle? Poor Dai would would be face-down snoring in his salad.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 25, 2008 05:40PM)
So not much would be different?
Message: Posted by: MAKMagic (Feb 25, 2008 05:41PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-25 17:12, Larry Davidson wrote:
Frank, what does a Harry Lorayne book have to do with this?
[/quote]

Harry Lorayne WOULD have told him to stop masturbating AND stabbed him with the butter knife:)
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Feb 25, 2008 06:08PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-25 15:28, MAKMagic wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-02-25 14:24, kammagic wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-02-25 13:25, Larry Davidson wrote:
Karbonkid,

Which specific quote do you believe I haven't taken to heart?

I've read all the postings in this thread, I don't need my memory refreshed, and I stand by all of my comments including, "If someone approached me at a restaurant and did that, I'd probably suffer two minutes of it before I told him, in a polite way, that he shouldn't mastur**** in public."

For whatever reason, when a thread is posted in the wrong section, you object to comments, such as mine, that are consistent with the title of the thread and the purpose of the particular section in which that thread is posted. Note that I didn't say that the kid was performing at a restaurant gig, I said [b]if[/b] someone approached me in a restaurant and did this, etc. I haven't taken the WEB clip out of the context of the purpose of this thread and this area of the Café.

Consistent with the purpose of my postings and some postings made by others, kammagic asks a good question, "Can XCM be done in a restaurant?" My answer to that question is [b]probably[/b], as long as it's accompanied by an entertaining presentation instead of solely to show off (I have the same opinion about magic). Likewise, traditional juggling could probably be done in a restaurant, again assuming that it's accompanied by an entertaining presentation. The reason that I said probably instead of definitely is that I'd imagine some patrons might not be comfortable having someone do extreme manipulation of objects, whether they be cards or traditional juggling props, [b]very close to the table[/b], for fear that the performer might drop those objects on the food or the patrons themselves. For that reason, I'd think that at a minimum, a safe distance between the performer and the patrons would be necessary.

Larry
[/quote]

Larry,

"I'd probably suffer two minutes of it before I told him, in a polite way, that he shouldn't mastur**** in public."

This quote is very unprofessional. In reality if you said something like that to me you would be asked by management to apologize and if you refused you would be asked to leave and if you refused to leave you would be *politely* escorted out by our 8 bouncers.

,Jonathan
[/quote]

Proffesional or no....as the customer I highly doubt the management would ask someone to apologize to the help and I'd bet a months pay they wouldn't have me escorted out on refusal. In this particular case, the management would surely agree that the customer is an *** and leave it at that.
[/quote]

I don't know where you work but where I work if a customer is out of line our managers will talk to them. If the customers want to throw a fit about it they will be asked to leave. Doesn't matter if you are an employee or a customer. Rude is rude. If the management doesn't like it you will be asked to leave.

Larry has already mentioned he would of never made that remark in a restaurant so I have no problem.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 25, 2008 06:28PM)
So your restaurant is in fantasy land?

The remark is nowhere near out of line. It would not require an appology. EVEN IF Larry used the "M" word.

I believe you work in a place which serves adult beverages right? Tell me they throw out everyone who is rude.

Really man you are losing steam fast LOL.

Management in every place I have ever been in would not act in the way in which you speak for such a silly reason. Nobody threw any fit as you are pretending. Nobody said anything of a vulgar nature even. Heck Seinfeld had an entire episode based on the action, so don't give me any nonsense about offensive.

Sorry Jonathan, but you really are simply wanting to argue. I think you really like being a victim.
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Feb 25, 2008 06:38PM)
Danny I answered your private message but I guess you haven't read it yet. I will copy and paste it here.

Danny,

Where I work if the management found a customer was rude they would definitely have a talk with that customer. Especially if its a man being rude to a woman. They have very little tolerance for that. Larry has said that he would never use the ********* comment in a restaurant so I'm cool. But if he did it would of certainly been out of line. Its of course not a black and white situation if they say such and such they will be in trouble. The entire situation would be assessed. First of all if the server or entertainer in this case was not offended then nothing would happen. But if a customer says something to upset an employee our management will stand by the employee 100%. Paying for dinner does not give someone that right to humiliate or offend people. If you are going out you need to act like an adult and treat others with respect. Its as simple as that. I have had many rude customers in my time but I'm always able to laugh it off I never get offended. But I did have one instance where a customer claimed I was hitting on his wife and got very upset. There were 5 managers and 4 bouncers on the scene immediately. The management backed me 100% and the guy and his wife were politely escorted out. If you had seen his wife you would of been on my side too.

, Jonathan
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 25, 2008 06:43PM)
See the difference? LOL.
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Feb 25, 2008 06:46PM)
Danny,

Larry and I are fine. If you want to continue that's up to you.

,Jonathan
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 25, 2008 06:48PM)
Your right Jonathan, I am the one who started all this again LOL. Good point.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 25, 2008 06:56PM)
Danny must you always be so condescending? you seem to always talk as if you're the only one with any real world experience.
Message: Posted by: Magic_Steve (Feb 25, 2008 07:10PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-25 19:56, magicfish wrote:
Danny must you always be so condescending? you seem to always talk as if you're the only one with any real world experience.
[/quote]

If there are any more arguments on this subject, we can start telling people to use the search feature for Danny Doyle debates as well! :rolleyes:
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 25, 2008 07:15PM)
Hey did you reach the other side of the bowl again magicfish? Forgot where you were already?

Look at what I wrote about the kid. I know reading is fundimental but comprehension is an advanced skill.

I was supportive of the kid. I said he was happy doing what he was doing, and let him be happy. So was THAT what was condecending?

Or was it the part where I told Jonathan I KNEW he worked? Was THAT condecending and acting like I was the only one with real world experience?

Oh wait when I complimented Larry THAT must have been when I was condecending and acting like I was the only one with real world experience right?

Or was it when I though Jonathan may have compared apples and oranges in situations.

Please show me what it is you speak of. Or better yet instead of following me around and trying to pick at my posts and just posting something in anger that contributes NOTHING to the thread, why not post some of your real world experience for us? How would that be for a change maigicfish?

You tell us your thoughts on the thread SUBJECT, instead of just comming out and attacking me for no reason.

Do you work in restaurants at all? Do you have experience that may help? Do you have an opinion on what it is the original poster has put forth? Or do you only have second TIER educational attacks on me?
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 25, 2008 07:34PM)
........ sigh... exhibit "A".
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 25, 2008 07:35PM)
Yea, an exibition of your need to follow me for some strange reason and simply attack me.

But seriously magicfish, if you have nothing to contribute, why not just send me a PM, so nobody knows?
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 25, 2008 07:38PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-25 20:34, magicfish wrote:
........ sigh... exhibit "A".
[/quote]

Danny, your attacks don't really bother me... but you told the gentleman that the restaurant he works in must be in fantasy land. I don't understand. He's trying to contribute something from experience and you're basically telling him he's full of it. Do you not believe him?
Message: Posted by: state (Feb 25, 2008 07:52PM)
Hey, You guys know what Toilet paper and the Star Ship Enterprise have in common?
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 25, 2008 07:59PM)
I think you need to put down your chinese sticks and your dye tube and go on a date. For God's sake loosen up man.
Message: Posted by: Magic_Steve (Feb 25, 2008 08:16PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-25 20:59, magicfish wrote:
I think you need to put down your chinese sticks and your dye tube and go on a date. For God's sake loosen up man.
[/quote]

I'd like to thank you for getting this thread waaaay off topic....again, why could this have not been settled via pm? Do the other people here really have to see you try and pick a fight? Really.... :rolleyes:

Posted: Feb 25, 2008 9:20pm
Quote:


On 2008-02-25 20:38, magicfish wrote:
Danny, your attacks don't really bother me... but you told the gentleman that the restaurant he works in must be in fantasy land. I don't understand. He's trying to contribute something from experience and you're basically telling him he's full of it. Do you not believe him?



Jonathan wrote about having customers removed from the restaurant because they were being rude...I've never been in a restaurant where that happens. If every restaurant in America did that, they'd make VERY VERY little in the way of profit. Fantasy land? Perhaps...I could hardly see a typical restaurant having someone escorted from the property because they were rude and maybe using a bit of profanity. Then again, that's just me.
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Feb 25, 2008 08:56PM)
All of this because of that poor kid ...
Message: Posted by: Magic_Steve (Feb 25, 2008 09:19PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-25 21:56, Frank Starsini wrote:
All of this because of that poor kid ...
[/quote]

Please, do we have to go into his financial status as well?!? :rotf:
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 26, 2008 04:02AM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-25 21:20, Magic_Steve wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-02-25 20:38, magicfish wrote:
Danny, your attacks don't really bother me... but you told the gentleman that the restaurant he works in must be in fantasy land. I don't understand. He's trying to contribute something from experience and you're basically telling him he's full of it. Do you not believe him?
[/quote]

Finally some progress; so you're saying he is lying.
Jonathan wrote about having customers removed from the restaurant because they were being rude...I've never been in a restaurant where that happens. If every restaurant in America did that, they'd make VERY VERY little in the way of profit. Fantasy land? Perhaps...I could hardly see a typical restaurant having someone escorted from the property because they were rude and maybe using a bit of profanity. Then again, that's just me.
[/quote]
Message: Posted by: Magic_Steve (Feb 26, 2008 05:58AM)
Wow...took me like 5 minutes to find your post. Really, if you want to be sarcastic, at least make it easy to read what you're tying to be funny about.

No, I didn't say he's lying, that's why I said perhaps. Not definitely.

PERHAPS:
Pronunciation:
\pər-ˈhaps, ˈpraps\
Function:
adverb
Etymology:
per + hap
Date:
1528

: possibly but not certainly : maybe


So what...are you Jonathan's twice removed first cousin or something? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say he's an adult...I think he can handle his own battles. If you want to get into a shouting match, by all means we can continue this via PM or email.

-Steve
Message: Posted by: state (Feb 26, 2008 05:59AM)
Gosh, You girls still at this?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 26, 2008 10:26AM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-25 01:11, Dannydoyle wrote:
I hope I can get this out without the usual suspects just dragging this down because it is me saying it.

First off I found it the only magician ever working where kids were running around the room and didn't give a hoot LOL.

As for the "performace" was I to believe that this was some set up sort of contest, and the "live performance" was part of this? I mean he was working at a fast food place basically, not where most would imagine a restaurant worker to be. I don't think the kid claims to be a restaurant worker per se, just that this was part of some contest. If this was answered I appologise. But that makes me cut the kid some slack in that case.

Is he a great "performer"? Obviously not. Is he trying to be? Well from what I can see no so I don't really hold that against him. He likes the moves, for himself. I am not sure he cares if anyone else does. He will find out soon enough on his own that people don't watch that for long. Again I cut him some slack. It seems like some sort of new breed of "move monkey" has evolved in the art.

As for "Extreme Card Manipulation", I find the term laughable. Why does everyone under the age of 20 (plus Criss Angel) over use the term EXTREME as some sort of new marketing ploy? What exactly was so "extreme" or even new in what he did? I have more problems with the goofy terms than I do with the kid LOL.

Would it work in a restaurant? Please no need to even worry about it. The kid in this viceo does not even seem as if he wants to work them, so I cut him a lot of slack.

Now those prone to do so may just flame me for whatever reason they find. Wheather they agree or not, just flame away.
[/quote]

Not to quote myself or anything magicfish, but you came in right on cue. LOL. Thanks for playing.
Message: Posted by: paymerich (Feb 26, 2008 12:54PM)
Warning incoming Goodwin's Law:
I have one thing to say :

Saying you can't do XCM in a restaurant is akin to the Nazi's forcing the Jews into the ghettos!!

There.. the thread is dead... NEXT TOPIC.
Message: Posted by: SoCalPro (Feb 26, 2008 01:17PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-26 13:54, paymerich wrote:
Warning incoming Goodwin's Law:
I have one thing to say :

Saying you can't do XCM in a restaurant is akin to the Nazi's forcing the Jews into the ghettos!!

There.. the thread is dead... NEXT TOPIC.
[/quote]

Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh....WHAT???!!!!

BTW, be careful what comments you leave on that YouTube page. I called that 15 year old kid out and my comment got nuked. All I did was ask him "what restaurant experience could you possibly have at 15?"

Guess they didn't like that. :lol:
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Feb 26, 2008 01:48PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-26 14:17, SoCalPro wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-02-26 13:54, paymerich wrote:
Warning incoming Goodwin's Law:
I have one thing to say :

Saying you can't do XCM in a restaurant is akin to the Nazi's forcing the Jews into the ghettos!!

There.. the thread is dead... NEXT TOPIC.
[/quote]

Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh....WHAT???!!!!

BTW, be careful what comments you leave on that YouTube page. I called that 15 year old kid out and my comment got nuked. All I did was ask him "what restaurant experience could you possibly have at 15?"

Guess they didn't like that. :lol:
[/quote]

Please tell me you are kidding about calling out a 15 year old boy about his restaurant experience. He made the "live" video for the contest. He NEVER claimed to perform XCM in a restaurant or to be a restaurant performer. The original poster of the link brought up the question about performing XCM in a restaurant. This boy is simply having fun entering a contest.
Message: Posted by: SoCalPro (Feb 26, 2008 01:55PM)
No Kamm, actually I was calling ANOTHER punk out on this line..."..but to say that XCM in general has no place in a restaurant setting seems to me to be very close-minded."

I was just wondering what experience he has to make such a comment.
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Feb 26, 2008 02:00PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-26 14:55, SoCalPro wrote:
No Kamm, actually I was calling ANOTHER punk out on this line..."..but to say that XCM in general has no place in a restaurant setting seems to me to be very close-minded."

I was just wondering what experience he has to make such a comment.
[/quote]

Thank you I understand now.

Posted: Feb 26, 2008 3:03pm
Here is an XCM stage performance. The kid has some guts. He does drop all the cards at one point and simply pulls out another deck and continues. The audience gets a kick out of it. The audience loves the arm ribbon spreads too. Interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxlO5A047xw
Message: Posted by: paymerich (Feb 26, 2008 03:16PM)
FYI


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

Godwin's Law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies)[1] is an adage formulated by Mike Godwin in 1990. The law states:[2][3]

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."

Godwin's Law is often cited in online discussions as a caution against the use of inflammatory rhetoric or exaggerated comparisons, and is often conflated with fallacious arguments of the reductio ad Hitlerum form.

The rule does not make any statement whether any particular reference or comparison to Hitler or the Nazis might be appropriate, but only asserts that one arising is increasingly probable. It is precisely because such a comparison or reference may sometimes be appropriate, Godwin has argued[4] that overuse of Nazi and Hitler comparisons should be avoided, because it robs the valid comparisons of their impact. Although in one of its early forms Godwin's Law referred specifically to Usenet newsgroup discussions,[5] the law is now applied to any threaded online discussion: electronic mailing lists, message boards, chat rooms, and more recently blog comment threads and wiki talk pages.
Message: Posted by: state (Feb 26, 2008 03:52PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-26 13:54, paymerich wrote:
Warning incoming Goodwin's Law:
I have one thing to say :

Saying you can't do XCM in a restaurant is akin to the Nazi's forcing the Jews into the ghettos!!

There.. the thread is dead... NEXT TOPIC.
[/quote]

Ya, sure. Nice comparison.
If my post about trying to get my wife to give me a slow jack & a ball rub to change a muffler bearing won't interrupt these arguments, nothing will.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 26, 2008 04:04PM)
Ok all postings of Danny Doyle is mean are way off topic, and have been discussed ad nausium. Also his inability to spel, or care about speling.

Funny how weak arguements turn to an attack on another. Magicfish contributed nothing, only attacked me LOL.

I LOVE the Hitler thing, and can post many threads which show this in action!
Message: Posted by: Jay Buchanan (Feb 26, 2008 04:06PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-26 16:52, state wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-02-26 13:54, paymerich wrote:
Warning incoming Goodwin's Law:
I have one thing to say :

Saying you can't do XCM in a restaurant is akin to the Nazi's forcing the Jews into the ghettos!!

There.. the thread is dead... NEXT TOPIC.
[/quote]

Ya, sure. Nice comparison.
If my post about trying to get my wife to give me a slow jack & a ball rub to change a muffler bearing won't interrupt these arguments, nothing will.
[/quote]

I read your joke and laughed. I then went to my wife and told her I need a slow jack and a ball rub so I can replace my muffler bearing and she said "good... replace your discharge hose with a bigger one while you're at it" :(
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 26, 2008 04:09PM)
Wow an add on joke that actually contributes to the funny!
Message: Posted by: state (Feb 26, 2008 04:10PM)
She said "good... replace your discharge hose with a bigger one while you're at it" :(
[/quote]

I'm Sorry.
Message: Posted by: Jay Buchanan (Feb 26, 2008 04:30PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-26 17:10, state wrote:
I'm Sorry.
[/quote]

It's ok... I do a mean egg bag to compensate
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Feb 26, 2008 06:37PM)
Uhhhhh ..........I don't think Nazis had computers. :)
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 26, 2008 06:49PM)
Not good ones that is for sure!
Message: Posted by: jclark (Feb 27, 2008 12:07AM)
[/quote]

I read your joke and laughed. I then went to my wife and told her I need a slow jack and a ball rub so I can replace my muffler bearing and she said "good... replace your discharge hose with a bigger one while you're at it" :(
[/quote]

I just got back from a production meeting in LA (GREAT day btw in SoCal today). Truly made my week and is one of the reasons I love magic (and TV) so much... but then I wander on the Café to check PMs, etc and read this... AND OMG, I TOTALLY LOL. THANKS for that my friend!
Message: Posted by: Banester (Feb 27, 2008 09:15AM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-25 12:36, Frank Starsini wrote:
The original post asked about this type of performance at a restaurant. Which I think most of us agree would not go over very well. I think the critiques were accurate.

BUT...

You're probably correct that it was not intended to be a performance. In that respect, we've taken it out of context in terms of what the kid was doing and it was a bit harsh. Not so good.
[/quote]

I might be blind or deaf, but I can not find anywhere on that video that claims he is a Magician (according to Mikka).

What if he drosp a card or the cards? Have you ever done XMC or know anything about it? There are graceful ways to pick up cards instead of just bending down and grabbing each one. That is something that is practiced with XCM, at some point you ARE going to drop some cards.

Would you want to watch magic for 45min tableside while you eat? I don't think there is anything I would want to watch or interact with while trying to eat my dinner.

His personality. In XCM you usually don't talk, you just perform.

I don't think he was "working" tables in this video.

People have different tastes, some don't even like to watch magic! I would let this young man perform for me, I would give him that chance. I wouldn't mind watching some card handling before dinner came.

Do you think this young man could perform some card magic with a little practice. His card handling would just add to the whole performance.
Message: Posted by: Simon Bakker (Feb 27, 2008 05:16PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-25 16:19, Magic_Steve wrote:
[quote]
Proffesional or no....as the customer I highly doubt the management would ask someone to apologize to the help and I'd bet a months pay they wouldn't have me escorted out on refusal. In this particular case, the management would surely agree that the customer is an *** and leave it at that.
[/quote]

Couldn't have said it any better myself. Unless the customer is threatening violence, then there is no way in hell the management is going to remove a paying customer from the restaurant because he was being an ass....NEVER GONNA HAPPEN. EVER.

:)
[/quote]

Well, get a little older and try to make a sexist to a waitress, and see how fast you get kicked out.

I doubt that you have ever been in a bar where they actually serve alcohol, but if you ever go, try to make that sexist remark a few times to a barmaid.....

And also try to get yourself really drunk in restaurant and start getting loud and innapropriate.....they will probably NEVER kick you out, because you didn't threatened violence....

I really wonder whre you base that b*llS**t on?
Message: Posted by: Magic_Steve (Feb 27, 2008 05:58PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-27 18:16, Simon Bakker wrote:

Well, get a little older and try to make a sexist to a waitress, and see how fast you get kicked out.

I doubt that you have ever been in a bar where they actually serve alcohol, but if you ever go, try to make that sexist remark a few times to a barmaid.....

And also try to get yourself really drunk in restaurant and start getting loud and innapropriate.....they will probably NEVER kick you out, because you didn't threatened violence....

I really wonder whre you base that b*llS**t on?
[/quote]

See, now you're getting out of context to what we were actually talking about. Maybe if you paid better attention before started posting, you might understand better.

They will never kick you out of a restaurant for being rude*. But ifyou're getting drunk and loud, that is another story. Then you're verging on the possibility of turning violent, which in the case they would most likely escort you off the grounds. But, being drunk and loud and obnoxious is a lot different than just being rude. WAAAAY different. And I'm basing this off of the many restaurants I've been to, a friend that owns a restaurant, and of course working in one.

Maybe next time it wouldn't kill you to read a little before jumping straight in and posting about something that you took out of context.

*And before you go off on me for rudeness this n that, I'm talking about just being an ass. Typical rudeness. Nothing that causes an issue with other guests, staff, etc. Of course, it's never good to be rude, but most servers are used to it.

Best.
Steve
Message: Posted by: SoCalPro (Feb 27, 2008 08:41PM)
Uhhhhhh wooooooow!!!!! This thread went to Haidies in a handbag. :lol:
Message: Posted by: Simon Bakker (Feb 28, 2008 01:38AM)
Well, dear Steve,

I've actually read the whole thread and that is exactly why I made that comment.

It was about being rude, and this is exactly what you said:

"Unless the customer is threatening violence, then there is no way in hell the management is going to remove a paying customer from the restaurant because he was being an ass....NEVER GONNA HAPPEN. EVER."

You have to choose your wordings more carefully or state your great definition of being an ass (being an ass = Typical rudeness according to you) the next time before you state facts like that.

You seem to think that being an ass is typical rudeness, I for one think that making sexist remarks and being drunk and obnoxious (without getting violent) makes you an ass.

And if you blame me for being rude, perhaps your right, but I do think you deserved it.


On-topic:
About the kid that did the card manipulations: I applaud him for his skill and patience, and for the fact that he's probably having fun.

About the question if this would be appropriate entertainment in a restaurant:
No, I don't think it will be good restaurant entertainment.
Message: Posted by: Magic_Steve (Feb 28, 2008 06:00AM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-28 02:38, Simon Bakker wrote:
Well, dear Steve,

I've actually read the whole thread and that is exactly why I made that comment.

It was about being rude, and this is exactly what you said:

"Unless the customer is threatening violence, then there is no way in hell the management is going to remove a paying customer from the restaurant because he was being an ass....NEVER GONNA HAPPEN. EVER."

You have to choose your wordings more carefully or state your great definition of being an ass (being an ass = Typical rudeness according to you) the next time before you state facts like that.

You seem to think that being an ass is typical rudeness, I for one think that making sexist remarks and being drunk and obnoxious (without getting violent) makes you an ass.

And if you blame me for being rude, perhaps your right, but I do think you deserved it.
[/quote]

Then how can we say either one of us is right if we have two totally different definitions of the same word? Maybe I should have choose my wording differently, but please tell me how you think I deserved it?
Message: Posted by: MAKMagic (Feb 28, 2008 10:28AM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-28 02:38, Simon Bakker wrote:
Well, dear Steve,

I've actually read the whole thread and that is exactly why I made that comment.

It was about being rude, and this is exactly what you said:

"Unless the customer is threatening violence, then there is no way in hell the management is going to remove a paying customer from the restaurant because he was being an ass....NEVER GONNA HAPPEN. EVER."

You have to choose your wordings more carefully or state your great definition of being an ass (being an ass = Typical rudeness according to you) the next time before you state facts like that.

You seem to think that being an ass is typical rudeness, I for one think that making sexist remarks and being drunk and obnoxious (without getting violent) makes you an ass.

And if you blame me for being rude, perhaps your right, but I do think you deserved it.


On-topic:
About the kid that did the card manipulations: I applaud him for his skill and patience, and for the fact that he's probably having fun.

About the question if this would be appropriate entertainment in a restaurant:
No, I don't think it will be good restaurant entertainment.
[/quote]

I think what Steve failed to do was further clarify as he did specify the "getting violent". The thing is that (I believe) when specifying with "unless the customer is threatening violence" Steve was attempting to make a point that the customers actions would need to be in the extreme in whatever scenario may be for the management to kick them out. And he is correct. Come visit me here in CT, we'll go to 5 restaurants of your choosing and I'll make the Mast*rbate comment to the server at each restaurant. If we are kicked out ONCE, I'll give you a $100.00.

I have worked in most facet's of the restaurant industry - Including as an active worker in tablehopping. I have been in pubs, seedy bars, high class bars, bar and grills, and the like in 3/4 of the US in quite a few establishments in about 6-7 other countries. The story is the same. The customer wins unless there is a BIG Problem, a nasty comment like the one mentioned would not constitute a BIG Problem worthy of an escort out of the restaurant. That is the end of it.
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Feb 28, 2008 12:09PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-28 11:28, MAKMagic wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-02-28 02:38, Simon Bakker wrote:
Well, dear Steve,

I've actually read the whole thread and that is exactly why I made that comment.

It was about being rude, and this is exactly what you said:

"Unless the customer is threatening violence, then there is no way in hell the management is going to remove a paying customer from the restaurant because he was being an ass....NEVER GONNA HAPPEN. EVER."

You have to choose your wordings more carefully or state your great definition of being an ass (being an ass = Typical rudeness according to you) the next time before you state facts like that.

You seem to think that being an ass is typical rudeness, I for one think that making sexist remarks and being drunk and obnoxious (without getting violent) makes you an ass.

And if you blame me for being rude, perhaps your right, but I do think you deserved it.


On-topic:
About the kid that did the card manipulations: I applaud him for his skill and patience, and for the fact that he's probably having fun.

About the question if this would be appropriate entertainment in a restaurant:
No, I don't think it will be good restaurant entertainment.
[/quote]

I think what Steve failed to do was further clarify as he did specify the "getting violent". The thing is that (I believe) when specifying with "unless the customer is threatening violence" Steve was attempting to make a point that the customers actions would need to be in the extreme in whatever scenario may be for the management to kick them out. And he is correct. Come visit me here in CT, we'll go to 5 restaurants of your choosing and I'll make the Mast*rbate comment to the server at each restaurant. If we are kicked out ONCE, I'll give you a $100.00.

I have worked in most facet's of the restaurant industry - Including as an active worker in tablehopping. I have been in pubs, seedy bars, high class bars, bar and grills, and the like in 3/4 of the US in quite a few establishments in about 6-7 other countries. The story is the same. The customer wins unless there is a BIG Problem, a nasty comment like the one mentioned would not constitute a BIG Problem worthy of an escort out of the restaurant. That is the end of it.
[/quote]

Sorry but the only person who can decide wether or not the comment was a BIG problem is the person the comment was directed at. They might not be offended but if they are then its a problem.

Larry has already said that he would not have used the mastu***** phrase. Why? Because it would not be appropriate. It could very easily offend the person it was used on. If a managers employee is visible shaken or hurt by what a customer says then absolutely the manager will have a talk with that customer. If the customer throws a fit they will be asked to leave. If they choose not to leave they will be escorted out by however many security personnel it takes. What there is absolutely no tolerance for is a man insulting a woman or someone making racial remarks. The mastur**** phrase could go either way. An adult would not use such a phrase because they know it could possibly offend someone. If I said something to a server by mistake that offended them I would appreciate them personally telling me or the manager letting me know so I could do the right thing and apologize.

, Jonathan
Message: Posted by: paymerich (Feb 28, 2008 01:49PM)
I hate to stir this up more but some of the managers are ruder than the bad patrons.
Message: Posted by: Magic_Steve (Feb 28, 2008 02:50PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-28 13:09, kammagic wrote:

Sorry but the only person who can decide wether or not the comment was a BIG problem is the person the comment was directed at. They might not be offended but if they are then its a problem.

Larry has already said that he would not have used the mastu***** phrase. Why? Because it would not be appropriate. It could very easily offend the person it was used on. If a managers employee is visible shaken or hurt by what a customer says then absolutely the manager will have a talk with that customer. If the customer throws a fit they will be asked to leave. If they choose not to leave they will be escorted out by however many security personnel it takes. What there is absolutely no tolerance for is a man insulting a woman or someone making racial remarks. The mastur**** phrase could go either way. An adult would not use such a phrase because they know it could possibly offend someone. If I said something to a server by mistake that offended them I would appreciate them personally telling me or the manager letting me know so I could do the right thing and apologize.

, Jonathan
[/quote]

One thing I find funny...how many of us work at restaurants that have security personnel?? :rotf:

From my experience, offending someone and causing a severe disruption that interferes with the other guests is a big difference. Hell, I've met people that have been offended by swearing. If I'm out dining and I let a few cuss words slip and offend the server, I don't even think that would warrant a talk with the manager. If I happen to wear a confederate flag shirt and offend a black server, I don't think that the restaurant would ask me to put something over it. Offending someone is different than acting out and possibly frightening other guests.

If I stand up and start cussing out the server, yes, that might get me removed. If I throw some glassware across the room, that might get me removed (and possible charges filed LOL)

See the difference? I'm sure many of us have offended someone at one time or another, but I hardly think that would get me removed or "talked to" by the manager. Especially in this overly-PC world where most people seem way to sensitive...

Best.
Steve

P.S. MAK's post hit the nail on the head EXACTLY. Thanks bro!! ;)
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 28, 2008 11:29PM)
Steve, I have never BEEN in a restaurant with security personel, let alone as many as needed to throw us out LOL.

If your restaurant has multiple security personel, maybe you need to rethink the venue a bit more LOL.
Message: Posted by: RicHeka (Feb 28, 2008 11:57PM)
Yea Steve...what are these DirtBiker restaurants? :lol:
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Feb 29, 2008 12:50AM)
Maybe where I work I see it more often I guess. We have a 400 seat restaurant connected to a bar connected to a brewery connected to an outdoor courtyard where the bands play in the summer time connected to a comedy club/night club connected to banquet rooms which hold 1000. We have a total of 7 bars.

We have 7 managers on duty all the time. 6 to 8 bouncers/security/doorman on staff all the time. Our banquets have a staff of 150 and I am not sure how many regular waitstaff, bartenders we have but it has to be over 100. I have worked this environment for 10 years. One of or lead managers who has been with the company since the beginning just LOVES to kick people out. She jumps up and down yelling "Let me do it Let me do it! I'm serious. She is quite funny. So you see my environment is a little different then the family restaurants you guys are used to. My shift takes me well into the night when the freaks come out. I get the full gambit from families with little kids to out of control drunks. The management does an amazing job of keeping the peace. Mainly because they have little tolerance for Jackholes. Wether it be in the family dinning area in the restaurant or the after hours clubs.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 29, 2008 12:59AM)
What you mean to say it is far different from the fine dining establishments I work in. Not to nit pick.

So you say that your situation is unique, yet you insist on telling others to do these things? I get it now.

How many doctors and lawyers show up at freak time anyhow?
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Feb 29, 2008 01:21AM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-29 01:59, Dannydoyle wrote:
What you mean to say it is far different from the fine dining establishments I work in. Not to nit pick.

So you say that your situation is unique, yet you insist on telling others to do these things? I get it now.

How many doctors and lawyers show up at freak time anyhow?
[/quote]

You said you weren't used to security personnel in a restaurant. I was just explaining my situation. My situation is unique in that I get to see a wide variety of situations all under one roof. How many Doctors and Lawyers? Probably 40-50. I just pass-on what I have learned from experience. Wether people do these things is not up to me. Their situation could be completely different. My information may not help them. But I put it out there for those who do find it helpful.

, Jonathan
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 29, 2008 09:06AM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-26 17:04, Dannydoyle wrote:
Ok all postings of Danny Doyle is mean are way off topic, and have been discussed ad nausium. Also his inability to spel, or care about speling.

Funny how weak arguements turn to an attack on another. Magicfish contributed nothing, only attacked me LOL.

I LOVE the Hitler thing, and can post many threads which show this in action!
[/quote]

I had no argument on this matter. only a question for you. I was wondering why you berated someone for offering there own experience from real restaurant work. Which is why a lot of guys join the Café- to learn. I just wondered why. Then you guys started talking about long lost cousins and battles and Adolf Hitler.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 29, 2008 10:53AM)
Magicfish, you keep reaching the other side of the bowl huh?
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 29, 2008 12:28PM)
Ignorance is bliss... this is eden.
Message: Posted by: paymerich (Feb 29, 2008 03:08PM)
Ooooh Eden ,
Barbara Eden,
I dream of genie.
Magical Hotty
grrrrooooooowwwwlll..




How's that for a thread progression
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 29, 2008 03:09PM)
Hey magicfish since you are contributing nothing tell us where we are ignorant.

Come on kick in that second TIER education and tell us all how we are ignorant. Let us marvel at your intellect.

Show us the error of our ways. Educate us. Please pronounce your experience, and how we are all lost in the woods.

I know your magic and your life must be just an amazing story. I understand that right now Michael Crighton and Maya Angelou are having a big fight as to whether your story will be a novel or a poem.

I know this story will be an epic the sort of Beowulf or the Canterbury tales and such.

So please show us your brilliance. Let it spew forth so that we can get away from our ignorance and bow down before your superior knowledge of such a subject. I can hardly wait.
Message: Posted by: Magic_Steve (Feb 29, 2008 03:29PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-29 16:09, Dannydoyle wrote:
Hey magicfish since you are contributing nothing tell us where we are ignorant.

Come on kick in that second TIER education and tell us all how we are ignorant. Let us marvel at your intellect.

Show us the error of our ways. Educate us. Please pronounce your experience, and how we are all lost in the woods.

I know your magic and your life must be just an amazing story. I understand that right now Michael Crighton and Maya Angelou are having a big fight as to whether your story will be a novel or a poem.

I know this story will be an epic the sort of Beowulf or the Canterbury tales and such.

So please show us your brilliance. Let it spew forth so that we can get away from our ignorance and bow down before your superior knowledge of such a subject. I can hardly wait.
[/quote]

+2 :cheers:
Message: Posted by: state (Feb 29, 2008 03:34PM)
Oh no, We were told on. http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=247796&forum=40&1
Message: Posted by: DJBrenton (Feb 29, 2008 05:19PM)
Could someone point me to a thread that's about XCM in a restaurant please? I'm sure there used to be one.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Mar 1, 2008 11:08AM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-29 16:09, Dannydoyle wrote:
Hey magicfish since you are contributing nothPlease pronounce your experience, and how we are all lost in the woods.
ing tell us where we are ignorant.

Come on kick in that second TIER education and tell us all how we are ignorant. Let us marvel at your intellect.

Show us the error of our ways. Educate us.




Well, Danny you make it easy for me and those who try to help. Once again you have nastily ridiculed someone who is trying to offer some advice based on real world experience. Your immediate reaction was to state that you work in better places than him. The reason you did this is because you were proven wrong.
SAt first you said that security personel at a reataurant exists only in fantasy land. You are wrong. Kammagic contributed with an enlightening post about his venue which sounds quite interesting. But for some reason you saw it as an opportunity for sarcasm and smugness as though you want to be the only guy who is a real "worker". This is supposed to be a fraternity and yet you keep trashing anyone who speaks. Why?





I know your magic and your life must be just an amazing story. I understand that right now Michael Crighton and Maya Angelou are having a big fight as to whether your story will be a novel or a poem.

I know this story will be an epic the sort of Beowulf or the Canterbury tales and such.

So please show us your brilliance. Let it spew forth so that we can get away from our ignorance and bow down before your superior knowledge of such a subject. I can hardly wait.
[/quote]
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 1, 2008 11:35AM)
Show me please magicfish where I said security personel equals fantasyland.

My point was that throwing out rude customers is fantasy land. Oh and see since you have reached the other side of the bowl again and forgotten where you were, let me explain. That is what many people will call a "joke".

You can argue that it may indeed not have been that funny. But I was asking YOU to contribute. All YOU are doing is attacking. You have not once mentioned anything about the meat of this thread. Your just here to argue. So prove me wrong and do what I asked.

And my "immediate reaction" was to clarify where I work as he got it wrong.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Mar 1, 2008 11:51AM)
Well, I sort of agreed with your defending this kid. He's certainly put in a lot of practice- I'd rather see him doing magic, but who am i? maybe he doesn't like magic. He seems like he's having fun; and I'm pretty sure it's not a situation where he's approached a table in a restaurant and is trying to entertain a family. If he is well then that's a different story.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 1, 2008 12:10PM)
Even if he did approach them they didn't seem to mind really. Maybe not the most attentive audience, but not bored to tears either. Nobdy has mentioned that they WERE watching him and not talking amongst themselvs.

Yea I would rather see magic as well, I am with you there, but again as you said "Who am I"? His choices and I respect that.

It seemed to me everyne was projecting what "they" would do, or what "they" would like to see. I for one don't enjoy manipulation acts. GOD do they bore me. BUT some like them and they do go well. Who knows the kid may be onto something.
Message: Posted by: Magic_Steve (Mar 1, 2008 01:54PM)
I'll be honest here as well and say in his defense, that sorta thing is A LOT more impressive in person, as opposed to a video camera. I can vouch for that first hand. :)
Message: Posted by: magicmystro (Mar 3, 2008 03:27PM)
I don't really think this kinda thing is really suitable for real people LIVE as I just think of it as showing of, but if the spectators like it then hey I cant complain.
Message: Posted by: trickytrav (Mar 4, 2008 11:59AM)
Each to his own I suppose but I switched off after about a minute.This stuff bores me silly.But it does take skill and dexterity.
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Mar 4, 2008 12:07PM)
Lennart Green does something a bit similar in his FISM act and he turns it into something very funny. Just takes some care and thought to make it interesting and entertaining.
Message: Posted by: magicsoup (Mar 11, 2008 11:32PM)
Wow! I think with a good presentation that could be awesome. Someone needs to teach that kid how to get the audience involved. He needs to develop a 'character' and make it funny.
Message: Posted by: todsky (Mar 22, 2008 09:16PM)
Oh, why do magicians have such tender egos...
After reading this long-winded thread, I can only conclude that many of you are envious of this kid's skills with cards. I also wish I could do what he is doing. It is, from a purely visual perspective, quite beautiful and enthralling. Yes, it is juggling and not magic. I appreciate it from a card juggling perspective, knowing all too well how difficult it is to do what he is doing.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 22, 2008 11:04PM)
What brings you to this conclusion exactly?

What in our responces make you think that?

See this is something you are projecting onto us and have no basis for it in reality. It is a straw man arguement at its best.

Prove we are jealous. Can we not disagree with the practice and NOT be jealous? Or only when you say so?

I really get sick of this claim as if the only reason not to like something is jealousy. I didn't like Son of Sam, am I jealous of him? I completly disagree with him, (especially leaving the Partridge Family playing on the radio!) so I am jealous of him.

You really need to rethink this position.
Message: Posted by: Steven Leung (Mar 25, 2008 01:11AM)
I did not read through all previous pages.

Just to give my thoughts about XCM.

According to my experience, XCM while doing smoothly and beautifully, it indeed quite good to watch when it is perform live or with fancy video edit on internet. I know the top three famous XCM manipulators in the city, one of them are even quite famous in Taiwan underground XCM forums too.

Besides XCM, they also do amazing card magic, both sleight of hand and self working according performance venue and situation. They are talented and have a bright future of magic because they continue to receive knowledge of magic in other source besides XCM.

So, what is the problem of young XCM kids these days?

The problem is, some young people mix up XCM with card magic by saying to others doing XCM is card magic, and it happens all over the place, and I believe that this not the only case in my city. Another problem is they look at XCM as everything, maybe because they have no other source to get in touch of other forms of magic because of poverty (yes, in my city most kids start out magic because it cost the price of a deck of cards and they can download pirate instruction video for free, including Tudor and Buck Twins XCM videos too.)

I think every current problem with magic these days start with ¡¥education issue.¡¦ Without proper source and guidance, the new generation will only absorb what they feel ¡¥right¡¦ or ¡¥interesting.¡¦

Another point we should consider is many new comers stare at their own hands while doing magic or XCM without any communication, or I should say presentation. I think that is even more serious we should consider the future development of magic in new generations. Think about 8 years ago the best selling elementary instruction DVDs are Michael Ammar¡¦s, now are Beginnerz Xtreme, Trilogy and other with minimum or simply no presentation.

I had a high school kid card magic student the first lesson when I ask him to perform the best effect he can do he never leave his sight from the deck he held in his left dealing grip. When he spread the deck the deck was even held as close as 6 inch from his face, and he talked to me by talking directly to the deck¡K

Difficult sleight of hand or XCM has no problem, the only problem remains is we should do sleights like we breathe air, other than that, there is no difference in exposure. This apply to all kinds of magic.

I believe that besides politics, BT, piracy & ripped off products, the definition of magic for new generations is another issue we have to think about in the long run.

I hope you guys find my sharing useful in this discussion.
Message: Posted by: Rupert Bair (Mar 29, 2008 12:52PM)
I do a little "XCM" at restaurants and most of my gigs. people love it, as long as you don't over do it. It can look like art...or masturbation.

M:C
Message: Posted by: CactusChris (Apr 2, 2008 07:58AM)
[quote]
On 2008-03-25 02:11, Steven Leung wrote:
I did not read through all previous pages.
[/quote]

Hi I'm new here and unlike you did read through the whole post. All you missed was a huge argument, and most of it was NOT about the merits of performing XCM (Extreme card MAGIC) during table hopping.

I've been performing card magic for 10 years now and a years ago I bought the first real XCM instructional DVD 'Generation Extreme' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IszNGD79-rM that's a trailer of the DVD. I challenge any of you to say that these tricks in the video aren't suitable for a table hopping evening.

Brian Tudor developed these tricks to be displayed to music, and a lot of the kids that emulate him will plan on keeping to that formula after all a video posted on youtube can recieve thousands of views in no time, there is also a thriving youtube community where XCM'ers share tips and tricks and post short instructional videos on improved techniques so many will perform just for youtube. But not all people who have tried this will think in the same way, others like me will try to incorporate such tricks into a more rounded routine incorporating coin magic, street magic and more. Surely encouragment of any strain of magic is a good thing, variety is after all the spice of life.