(Close Window)
Topic: So...
Message: Posted by: Alex Linian (Mar 14, 2008 12:42PM)
I´m not a ¨Street Magician¨, and there´s not much of a point to this thread other than to mention that lately, I have noticed ¨Street¨Magicians keep trying to go for the biggest, flashiest demonstrations you can do outside. I just wanted to point out that the beauty of David Blaine´s magic (he started this whole thing), in my opinion, was the smallness of his demostrations, the intimacy they created, and the contrast to the big reactions that resulted from them.

... I don´t know.

Alex linian
Message: Posted by: Michael Taggert (Mar 15, 2008 01:23PM)
Excellent observation Alex. One of the things I have been studing lately is the presenation of effects in which you concetrate on the connection between you and the audince to make a magical presentation. Currently there is some excellent work on this subject.
Mike
http://www.magi-whirl.com
day 15
Message: Posted by: daffydoug (Mar 16, 2008 09:00AM)
[quote]
On 2008-03-14 13:42, Alex Linian wrote:
I´m not a ¨Street Magician¨, and there´s not much of a point to this thread other than to mention that lately, I have noticed ¨Street¨Magicians keep trying to go for the biggest, flashiest demonstrations you can do outside. I just wanted to point out that the beauty of David Blaine´s magic (he started this whole thing), in my opinion, was the smallness of his demostrations, the intimacy they created, and the contrast to the big reactions that resulted from them.

... I don´t know.

Alex linian
[/quote]

Only thing is most of those reactions were the best ones. Because they filmed it, they could go back later and edit until their hearts content, and the mediocre reactions ended up on the cutting room floor.

Just an observation, for what it's worth.
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Mar 16, 2008 01:01PM)
It is called close up magic and it has been done for centuries. The reactions are amplified by the presence of camera crews and the potential of being on TV. Cameras are amazing at getting people to do things, look at Girls Gone Wild, if you just walked up and said "okay drunk girls, I'd like you to come to my hotel room and put on a lil' lesbian show for me" you'll likely get the police called, but get a camera crew and tell them they will be stars then it is game on. Look at what idiotic stuff people put up on youtube and their myspace sites, crap that normal rational people would be embarrassed of some of you intentionally put it out there because of some twisted craving for attention.

Doug is correct in that they edit things to make them look right and the reations may actually be to nothing but requested reactions so they can put it in later (Penn and Teller did an example of this on a TV show how they could get people to do reactions to nothing). The good thing is people who watched the Blaine shows, the young ones at least, now think that is how they are suppose to respond to magic and you may get some that react over the top but it is more so to get attention on themselves rather than to the magic.

Sorry fellas, but dat da way it be.
Message: Posted by: Dave V (Mar 16, 2008 01:37PM)
You really can't trust reaction shots on television, no matter who is doing it. I remember the filming of David Copperfield's show where he was in a straitjacket, dangling from a burning rope over spikes. The reaction shots were done first, and the rest was stitched together after a dozen or so retakes, some of them after the audience left. You could still see him being hoisted back into place (outdoors, at the back lot behind Caesar's Palace) as people were in their cars waiting for the traffic to clear so they could go home.
Message: Posted by: daffydoug (Mar 17, 2008 06:47AM)
[quote]
On 2008-03-16 14:01, MagicSanta wrote:
It is called close up magic and it has been done for centuries. The reactions are amplified by the presence of camera crews and the potential of being on TV. Cameras are amazing at getting people to do things, look at Girls Gone Wild, if you just walked up and said "okay drunk girls, I'd like you to come to my hotel room and put on a lil' lesbian show for me" you'll likely get the police called, but get a camera crew and tell them they will be stars then it is game on. Look at what idiotic stuff people put up on youtube and their myspace sites, crap that normal rational people would be embarrassed of some of you intentionally put it out there because of some twisted craving for attention.

Doug is correct in that they edit things to make them look right and the reations may actually be to nothing but requested reactions so they can put it in later (Penn and Teller did an example of this on a TV show how they could get people to do reactions to nothing). The good thing is people who watched the Blaine shows, the young ones at least, now think that is how they are suppose to respond to magic and you may get some that react over the top but it is more so to get attention on themselves rather than to the magic.

Sorry fellas, but dat da way it be.
[/quote]

That's the sad part. Most of us don't have the advantage of a film crew and cameras. This phenomenon of all these "great reactions" has blown "street magic" up to be something it is not. Guys who chase after this dream are chasing after a mirage.
Their are two worlds. Their's the TV world, and their's the real world. Guess which one most of us live in?
Message: Posted by: Ken Northridge (Mar 17, 2008 07:30AM)
So, is this cheating? Is it a form of trick photography? I’ve always thought it was, but maybe I’m jealous because I don’t have the resources to do this myself. I know one thing, I’m get tired of hearing people say, “You know, David Blaine can really float, its no trick. I’ve seen it on TV!”
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Mar 17, 2008 08:52PM)
That levitation was complete camera trick but whatcha gonna do? I don't want to badmouth a magician to the public so I just bite my lip and move on.
Message: Posted by: Michael Taggert (Mar 17, 2008 09:10PM)
And superman can fly! The reality is that when a production crew rolls onsite there is Mega money at stake. It has to be good on tv or it will never be viewed. Go to any game show, any interview show or any "Live" TV show and they will spend time getting the audience to react first. This way it can be filmed and stored. Notice the woman sitting there laughing the exact same way four different times? it is not a coincedence. Is this cheating No! it is good television. The guys who can get those same reactions wthout the benfit of the camers now that's a different story. I recently went to a lecture where the director of a play demonstrated the difference between the closeness of a camera and the reaction of a stage moment by raising his eybrow. He then explained that on film that small movment would be profound but on the stage it is lost.
I know this sounds a bit rambling but the bottom line is the average guy does not have the resources to accomplish some of the thing they see on TV. But They do have the challenge to try.
Michael
day 17
Message: Posted by: JohntheMagician (Mar 18, 2008 09:54AM)
Look I give credit where credit is due. Blaine & to some extent Angel have popularized Magic again. I actually put Angel into the category of Entertainer, not magician, but that’s my philosophy and neither here nor there.

I recently went to a lecture at Marc DeSouza's house that featured Dr. Hass. He talked about the difference between Tricks & Magic / Effects & Art. People forget tricks, they remember Magic. Anyone can do a magic trick; it takes love & desire to produce Art.

If a Magician truly wants to get those types of reactions then they need to move their magic from the realm of Tricks & Effects to the realm of Magical Art.

Yeah it’s easy for me to say, and yes it is; as I myself will be working that road for the rest of my life. But, I can say that there have been a few times so far that I have gotten reactions like those on TV, and while performing during those times I felt it, I saw it in the spectator’s eyes that they truly went someplace or saw something Magical. I still get a rush thinking about it.

So to sum up my ranting, people can fuss all the time about how they could get that type of reaction with a film crew or they could be just as good as Blaine or Angel with the proper team behind them. Having experienced Magic from both side of the Top Hat, I say all you need is dedication, a love for the Art, support, and a true desire to perform the Art of Magic.
Message: Posted by: jocopa (Mar 18, 2008 02:17PM)
I only started learning magic in December, and I have been performing on the streets and in bars for the last couple of months during my travels, and I have found that much more often than not you get the kind of reactions that you see on tv... obviously there are some times that you don't get a good reaction, but these have been way fewer than the good ones for me.

I think it's all about HOW you approach people and the WAY that you perform the magic.

I don't doubt that there are a LOTTT of out-takes from shows like that of Criss Angel, but they are the ones that inspired me to get into this magic world, and I am indebted to them as I have fallen in love with this art and the creativity that it involves.

But yes, I also agree, I much prefer the smaller tricks rather than the big more staged performances.
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Mar 18, 2008 08:47PM)
I must say I bow to your experience and mastery of the art of magic....
Message: Posted by: daffydoug (Mar 18, 2008 09:20PM)
MagicSanta, you slay me!
Message: Posted by: jocopa (Mar 18, 2008 09:42PM)
[quote]
On 2008-03-18 21:47, MagicSanta wrote:
I must say I bow to your experience and mastery of the art of magic....
[/quote]

were you talking to me there?
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Mar 18, 2008 10:57PM)
No, Jocopa...after only three months of doing magic he has 'em screaming and dancing in the streets, I'm impressed.
Message: Posted by: daffydoug (Mar 19, 2008 05:11AM)
He's a man after my own heart..I too started in December...of 1960..
Message: Posted by: Alex Linian (Mar 19, 2008 11:17AM)
Interesting. I knew there wasn't much of a point to the thread. I just didn't think it would be missed completely by almost everyone.
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Mar 19, 2008 10:52PM)
Give it another shot then Alex and we promise to try to get the idea....
Message: Posted by: JohntheMagician (Mar 20, 2008 08:23AM)
What my post not good enough? {just kidding}. Several people chimed in as to their take on the subject matter. Ok so the Thread didn't go to 10 pages but it is in discussion.

Its dosen't matter if you started last month or 40 years ago, if you read these posts, its opinion and some are good and some are not, in my opinion of course.

Back to the matter at hand. people always ask if I can do the lates Angel or Blaine trick. If its something that involves a camera crew then I just tell them that it's not my style.
Message: Posted by: daffydoug (Mar 20, 2008 06:45PM)
Is that usually efficacious?
Message: Posted by: chichi711 (Mar 21, 2008 06:50PM)
Here is an interesting article that deals with this exact thread.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/123484?GT1=43002
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Mar 22, 2008 12:00AM)
I didn't go to the link yet but I'm amazed that News Week would cover this thread, must be a sloooow news week.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 22, 2008 06:24PM)
[quote]
On 2008-03-19 12:17, Alex Linian wrote:
Interesting. I knew there wasn't much of a point to the thread. I just didn't think it would be missed completely by almost everyone.
[/quote]

I like the way you want to sit high and mighty on your high horse and say things.

But oddly enough after Blaine's FIRST special, he started doing the big things, Frozen in Time, and such. You know, not the "intimate things with big reactions", you are trying to be all preachy about.

Maybe everyone is just doing what you claim your hero is doing Alex. They are trying to emulate him as it is now. You want to preach to someone why not preach to your hero? He seems to be the one who is doing all the huge stunts now, and continues to get further and further away from the gospel of which you speak.

Oh and as Santa said, Blaine did NOT invent close up magic by a long shot. It may very well have been the first time you came across it, but that does not make it the begining.

Also Alex not everyone can afford a camera crew to edit footage like your hero does for network specials.

I respect what he has done, but to chastise others like you are and act all superior seems out of line. People are having fun doing magic the way they want oo. Leave them alone.
Message: Posted by: Alex Linian (Mar 24, 2008 07:45PM)
[quote]
On 2008-03-22 19:24, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-03-19 12:17, Alex Linian wrote:
Interesting. I knew there wasn't much of a point to the thread. I just didn't think it would be missed completely by almost everyone.
[/quote]

I like the way you want to sit high and mighty on your high horse and say things.

But oddly enough after Blaine's FIRST special, he started doing the big things, Frozen in Time, and such. You know, not the "intimate things with big reactions", you are trying to be all preachy about.

Maybe everyone is just doing what you claim your hero is doing Alex. They are trying to emulate him as it is now. You want to preach to someone why not preach to your hero? He seems to be the one who is doing all the huge stunts now, and continues to get further and further away from the gospel of which you speak.

Oh and as Santa said, Blaine did NOT invent close up magic by a long shot. It may very well have been the first time you came across it, but that does not make it the begining.

Also Alex not everyone can afford a camera crew to edit footage like your hero does for network specials.

I respect what he has done, but to chastise others like you are and act all superior seems out of line. People are having fun doing magic the way they want oo. Leave them alone.
[/quote]

Hmmm... Through your effort of trying to bring me down to what you consider to be the absolute truth, you also managed to miss the point as well. I guess I should´ve explained what I meant in simpler terms. Then again, Michael got it right away.

"People are having fun doing what they want to"... not necessarily true. You can have fun doing something you [i]think[/i] you want to be doing, based on what you were made to believe it is you want to do. Many think they are doing what Blaine is doing, when in reality their purpose is something entirely different, something Blaine´s magic is not about. This conversation had nothing to do with "How to capture reactions on camera", nothing at all.

"Leave the alone"......

How exactly do you preach about not preaching by preaching...?

O well.
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Mar 24, 2008 08:14PM)
Perhaps everyone missing your point is more a reflection on your inability to communicate clearly and less on those trying to understand your grand statements.
Message: Posted by: Alex Linian (Mar 24, 2008 08:21PM)
I agree. Somewhat.

(... It wasn´t much of a grand statemente though... more like (as stated) an almost pointless observation...)

It´s all subjective though.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 25, 2008 10:51AM)
Yea Alex nobody can think as grand as you. Nobody can understand your imense knowlege. You are the only voice of reason in the world.

Like Santa said it may not be our inability to understand as much as your in ability to comunicate your hero worship feelings to us.

Or maybe there is another problem. Could be that you are just wrong.
Message: Posted by: Joe Russell (Mar 25, 2008 04:34PM)
David's my hero too Alex.
Message: Posted by: jfkkraemer (Mar 25, 2008 05:50PM)
DannyD, do you ever have any thing nice to say? I guess not reading thru some of your posts. Other people have opinions and are entitled to them. You seem to be the one always sitting so high and mighty on the horse and I'm sure quite a few people would agree. Give it a rest for a change, your an old broken record!
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Mar 25, 2008 08:23PM)
Danny is very nice, I don't know why some of you attack him so harshly.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 26, 2008 08:10PM)
[quote]
On 2008-03-25 18:50, jfkkraemer wrote:
DannyD, do you ever have any thing nice to say? I guess not reading thru some of your posts. Other people have opinions and are entitled to them. You seem to be the one always sitting so high and mighty on the horse and I'm sure quite a few people would agree. Give it a rest for a change, your an old broken record!
[/quote]

There ya go, when you can't attack the message, attack the messenger LOL. Nice try.

Alex was the one who was excoriating others was he not? I was the one who said let people do magic how they want too. Or did you miss that part because you want to be angry with me? Guess so.
Message: Posted by: jfkkraemer (Mar 26, 2008 09:18PM)
Didn't miss a thing Danny, your negative and condescending attitude towards most on this forum is just getting tiring. If you have nothing nice to say don't say anything at all, if you have something constructive to offer than fine, most newbies to magic could probably learn from you but your rude and demeaning nature takes away from your worth as an experienced entertainer. Have you not noticed it's always the other guy, he started it, he didn't understand what I meant. Stop for one second and think about that. You are always so quick to insult or speak in such a derogatory way to other members and you are forever back peddling. A great example

" There ya go, when you can't attack the message, attack the messenger LOL. Nice try."

I believe your message spoke volumes, I saw no need to attack the message but I did see a need to speak up on your delivery method. Stop and think how you seem to always attack both and when things get hot as they often do when you are concerned. You try to play word games and are very good at deflecting what the real issue was. If you can't handle someone having an opinion (be it right or wrong) you should keep yours to yourself.

For the record Danny, I'm not angry with you, more disapointed in your behavour. I like many others have joined this forum to seek help, offer help and have an enjoyable time learning and perfecting my craft. This forum is not yours, it's everyones and I don't believe you show much respect to the members or the forum with your constant negative behavour. I'm sorry that you get so upset with others and maybe that is something you should work on in the future. I don't know you personally but I am convinced from many of your posts you have an over abundance of skill and information to share with other performers in our field as well as hobbiests and for lack of a better term newbies to magic.

I will apoligize for the tone I took in my original post, had I used a little more thought and consideration I would have choosen words a lot more carefully. I hope we can get past this on the forum and both learn from this. I'm sure as I mentioned above you have a wealth of information to offer and share with people on here both with experience and without and I in future will try to choose my words more carefully and with some diplomicy.

Jeff Kraemer
Message: Posted by: Alex Linian (Mar 26, 2008 09:44PM)
For the non-necessary-but-what-the-hell record, there is not a single attack in my original post.

May have been a case of expectancy, and of seeing-what-you-wanna-see that made you believe this (you know about this stuff). It is justified for you to do this though, since I've used the terms "right" and "wrong" before. Not anymore.

Thanks for caring thought Danny. Peace.
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Mar 26, 2008 09:50PM)
Darn Jeff, Danny doesn't need anyone to speak for him but to be honest with you if the old days returned and the net wasn't thought of most people on this forum would beg to be able to get information like what Danny gives out and they wouldn't care if he wasn't coddling them. Here someone needs to just register to have access to experienced magicians but they don't bring respect or try to show they have earned the access like in the years gone by. I remember looking at Dai Vernon and knowing I wouldn't have access to his wisdom face to face, but that was something I had to earn like everyone else.

Danny, I appreciate your wisdom and guidance and that you exemplify what this board is about, magicians helping magicians...and I guess magicians helping wannabes too.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 26, 2008 10:05PM)
[quote]
On 2008-03-26 22:18, jfkkraemer wrote:
If you can't handle someone having an opinion (be it right or wrong) you should keep yours to yourself.

[/quote]

You took the words right out of my mouth.

If you don't like the way the information is delivered, then don't read it. Pretty simple really.

As I said it is odd though. You attack me as if I was putting down EVERYONE. Well it was Alex who seemed in his first post to be telling everyone what they are doing wrong, how things should be different and why he is right and everyone is wrong.

I simply said if people are having fun let them be.

Now tell me how this was condecending to anyone please?

THEN we can work on getting past it. Read my whole post, and who it was aimed at please, then lets talk.

Oh and a PM may be a better place to do that don't you think? After all your problem is with me PERSONALLY.

And Alex, who are you to tell people if they are having fun doing magic the way they are doing it or not? You talk about "You can have fun doing something you think you want to be doing, based on what you were made to believe it is you want to do" and pretend that you can think for them.

My point, before Jeff got all hot under the collar, is let them do magic THEIR WAY. THEY want to do it, let them. Where is the harm in that exactly? (and Jeff I ask again how this is an attack on everyone or condecending? In your haste to attack the messenger you completly misread the message aparantly.)
Message: Posted by: jfkkraemer (Mar 26, 2008 10:28PM)
I see your point MagicSanta and I would agree for the most part. The days of old required a lot more experience and battle scars before one could even hope to have a sit down or even ask a few questions with the likes of a Vernon a Marlow or a Henning or for that matter who ever. Times were quite different back then, maybe better who knows. But we can not go back we can only go forward now. Times are very much different whether we like it or not and we all need to accept change accordingly.

This is the age of the internet, these forums were not around in the good old days and peoples philosophies have changed. Just because one has more experience and more time in some thing by no means gives them a right to respect from others just as well as being a youth now a days doesn't give them the right to think the deserve respect. Respect is some thing that is earned, by hard work, by experience and by treating others with the same respect you feel you deserve to be treated with.

I would suggest to you that I was not speaking for Danny and believe me I had no intention of my post to sound in any way that I was.

I would also point out that if their was a test/audition to prove your self as a qualified magician to gain access to this site the Café would see it's membership vanish. If that happens, well we are all inteligent enough to figure out what would happen then (bye-bye Café). So we take the good with the bad when it comes to technology and will have to learn to deal with it and accept it.

Treat others with respect and dignity and those same people will treat you with that same respect. Demanding it will get a person absolutely none.

Magic Santa I have stated my opinion, I have apoligized to Danny for my poor choice of words earlier and I hope in future we can all remember what this board is about. Magicians helping Magicians.

Jeff Kraemer
Message: Posted by: Alex Linian (Mar 27, 2008 02:42AM)
Well, I think points what been stated and noone will change their thinking unless there's something in it for them...

I still have that one question though...



How do you preach about not preaching by preaching?...

How do you tell me not to tell others what not to do by telling me what not to do?...

How do you teach someone not to post against an opinion they don't like by posting against an opinion you don't like?

...
I don't know. I don't think I'll ever know.



...Maybe.

Alex Linian
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 27, 2008 02:13PM)
Obviously Alex you were preaching LOL.

Get as philisophical as you want to in order to distract, but the fact remains people do what they want, let them be.