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Topic: The Ping-Pong Shift
Message: Posted by: artwo (Jul 16, 2008 04:19PM)
Hi,

I'm sure a lot of the guys here who are mechanics would be able to share some insight onto this shift.

Would it work in a game environment? In slow company you could get away with any shift I guess, but in fast company would this supposedly invisible shift fly-by?

Flashing the bottom card is one obstacle - though reportedly Ping Pong would argue "no one uses the bottom card so what does it matter", but that's not really the point.



At any rate, its an interesting shift I guess...

Thoughts?
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Jul 16, 2008 04:41PM)
In fast company you don need no sheeyft.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jul 16, 2008 05:22PM)
OK but what is a Ping Pong shift?
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Jul 16, 2008 05:41PM)
Apparently it's a move found in this new Revelation book.
Message: Posted by: artwo (Jul 16, 2008 06:22PM)
Its a strange one to say the least. Involves turning the deck on its end face towards the table and tapping to "square" the deck.

Something painfully obvious I just realised about flashing the bottom card - bottom dealing thereafter is pretty much a stupid idea... unless you can greek deal but lets not get silly.

@Mr Z - Okay, not super fast mega vegas company, lets talk a few guys who play a lot of poker and aren't the standard crop of sucker.
Message: Posted by: h2o (Jul 16, 2008 06:50PM)
[quote]
On 2008-07-16 19:22, artwo wrote:
not super fast mega vegas company, lets talk a few guys who play a lot of poker and aren't the standard crop of sucker.
[/quote]

I think that it doesn't take just a megas vegas company to be able to spot a "shift". I think any half-wise standard player could easily suspect you're doing something wrong, whatever the shift you're using. You maybe won't be busted the first time, but if you keep "shifting" all night long, then good luck.
Message: Posted by: artwo (Jul 16, 2008 07:00PM)
Well the shift in question was created for a reason and allegedly used to great effect. Maybe it hypes it a little too much in Revelation but supposedly it was invisible, often covered with a punchline from a joke.

He couldn't have told a joke EVERY time he dealt, so of course he didn't cheat every deal - something I'm sure all mechanics also refrain from doing.
Message: Posted by: rawdawg (Jul 16, 2008 08:46PM)
The Shift reminds me of Zingone's Perfect Table pass and Erdnase's Open Shift, moves that I feel work best in the periphery. Besides, those were different times, different games and different attitudes.

Great name for a shift, though.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jul 16, 2008 10:20PM)
"Moves that I feel work best in the periphery." :)

I have some moves that work great when they are not looking.
Message: Posted by: Stepanov (Jul 17, 2008 03:18AM)
[quote]On 2008-07-16 18:22, tommy wrote:
OK but what is a Ping Pong shift?[/quote]
If I understand well first time Ping Pong appear on book of David Ben "Dai Vernon: A Biography" and on Revelations we get explanation of thing what "everybody wait".

I do not know how it calls on English, but here we call it "hook" - special new infromation what appear for made book interesting. Some time this is invented thing but sometime old but forgotten.

Apologize if my information not correct.
Message: Posted by: Hansen (Jul 17, 2008 04:22AM)
I hear it's big in Bangkok.
Message: Posted by: artwo (Jul 17, 2008 05:42AM)
I can't see how it can ever be invisible from the right side. Meaning you would need an accomplice on your right. Rendering the whole notion of a shift pointless.

But supposedly it was completely invisible. Perhaps the method described isn't as Ping Pong accomplished it.


Or more likely, I've only been doing it for a few weeks and am nowhere near a decent execution.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jul 17, 2008 05:59AM)
Not all money games are poker and it might be ok for Gin or maybe Bridge.
Message: Posted by: artwo (Jul 17, 2008 06:27AM)
But its not invisible from the right, its still a problem.

Its strange, usually with a move you can ask someone who is really good at it. But who is good at it? Nobody we're aware of.
Message: Posted by: Rupert Roach (Jul 17, 2008 05:56PM)
[quote]
On 2008-07-16 20:00, artwo wrote:
... He couldn't have told a joke EVERY time he dealt ... [/quote]

Honestly now, do you really think a true artist would use the exact same ruse on every single time? Ho hum.
Message: Posted by: James Alan (Jul 22, 2008 10:33PM)
After reading Cervon's description of the move, I worked on it for a few weeks. I showed it to a friend, he said it looked fantastic, practically invisible, he couldn't see what I was doing. The drawback was that even though he saw nothing, he could see the action screamed TABLE SHIFT. It was also a move completely unsuited to my mannerisms.
Message: Posted by: gdw (Jul 21, 2009 10:47PM)
For the longest time (not that the book has even been out that long) I was reading it as the move being done to the left, given the "exposed" photos. This of course made absolutely no sense, and left the move completely exposed.

Oddly enough, several who I discussed it with also attempted doing the move as such during the discussions.

Re-reading it, I realized that the move was clearly meant to be done almost immediately after the deck is picked up, executing it to the right of center. In fat that is exactly how it is described, 'right of center' and somehow I missed this initially. Go figure.

Any who. As mentioned here, the move is still clearly exposed from the right. Perhaps "owl turns head" is what covers this? I figured doing it, the deck and hands moving left, and the head turning right, to the person who cut the deck, making eye contact with them as the move is done, would allow you to avoid them seeing it.

I worked an idea based on Mexican Joe's shift, ding it just as the deck comes over the edge of the table and into the right hand. Allowed for a bit more cover from the right.

Mentioning the Cervon notes, did anyone else originally picture this being done with the deck turned the other way? Long ends to the table? It would be done to the left though, after having turned more, tapping the deck on its side at the end of the turn.
It allows for the right hand to cover far more of the move, and the left hand covers enough of the bottom that no one would be suspect to the bottom "flashing."

Could be way off base here. I know you mentioned seeing it similarly from the Cervon notes James.
Message: Posted by: Clock (Jul 21, 2009 11:40PM)
The angles are invisible from 7:00 - 1:00 ... The rest is the psychology behind it.

For what its worth, I have fooled a lot of the guys with it. I have also seen the ping pong shift done as a completely open shift (bad from every angle) and fly by everyone in a "fast" game.

Again... it's all about the timing and psychology of the move.
Message: Posted by: Kimura (Jul 22, 2009 06:00AM)
Would you perhaps categorise this as a "speed shift" similar (although at the same time completely different) to the one in 52?
Message: Posted by: artwo (Jul 22, 2009 07:40AM)
It looks more awkward than that, Kim.

Or maybe it doesn't fit my hands.



I used to think this shift was the dogs ********, but then I realised that... well... it really isn't.

Shifts tire me out.

EDIT: I can't say ******** ?!
Message: Posted by: The Dowser (Jul 22, 2009 07:46AM)
[quote]
On 2008-07-17 18:56, Rupert Roach wrote:

Honestly now, do you really think a true artist would use the exact same ruse on every single time? Ho hum.

[/quote]

A true cheat, artistic though he may be, is concerned with getting paid and not with pleasing art critics. If "Ho Hum" is consistently getting the money, then let the Ho Hum.
Message: Posted by: splice (Jul 22, 2009 08:29AM)
Oh, I always let the ho hum. It's better that way.
Message: Posted by: gdw (Jul 22, 2009 01:14PM)
[quote]
On 2009-07-22 00:40, Clock wrote:
The angles are invisible from 7:00 - 1:00 ... The rest is the psychology behind it.

For what its worth, I have fooled a lot of the guys with it. I have also seen the ping pong shift done as a completely open shift (bad from every angle) and fly by everyone in a "fast" game.

Again... it's all about the timing and psychology of the move.
[/quote]

This could be said of all shifts, no?
Message: Posted by: Expertmagician (Jul 23, 2009 07:30AM)
I thought a "ping pong shift" was really 2 shifts.

One to reverse halves of the deck and the other immediately after to put the cards back in the original order.

That way, if people say the saw something, you can show that the cards are still in the original order and that nothing happened.

You can repeat the move for a long time with nothing happening. Mmmm, as a second thought, the "ping pong" method may also be a good way to practice performing a real pass. Simply because it is repetitive (back and forth).

:)

I hope my comment was not "out of bounds" :)
Message: Posted by: gdw (Jul 23, 2009 03:23PM)
That would be an interpretation of "ping pong" as a description, instead of a name I guess.

The one we are discussing is from someone who was known as "Ping Pong."
Message: Posted by: Mike Rozek (Jul 28, 2009 03:28PM)
[quote]
On 2009-07-22 00:40, Clock wrote:
The angles are invisible from 7:00 - 1:00 ... The rest is the psychology behind it.

For what its worth, I have fooled a lot of the guys with it. I have also seen the ping pong shift done as a completely open shift (bad from every angle) and fly by everyone in a "fast" game.

Again... it's all about the timing and psychology of the move.
[/quote]

This is a *very* strong move in Grant's hands.
Message: Posted by: ImpromptuBoy (Dec 3, 2009 02:01AM)
I'm currently practicing this move from Dai Vernon's Revelation book, this is really kicking my ***!! The cull riffle of the mysterious kid (Dad Stevens) is another really challenging move that comes to mind from the book. It's fun to practice them though.

Michael