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Topic: Cups & Balls comparison chart.
Message: Posted by: Sir Richard (Aug 1, 2008 06:18PM)
There is a lot about Cups & their maufacture that seems to boogle the mind of a newer magician such as myself. Has anyone ever thought about making a "comparison chart" regarding this sort of thing to help us newer folks out? S.R.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Aug 1, 2008 08:07PM)
There's not a chart so much as there is a database over at the museum.
Message: Posted by: Sir Richard (Aug 2, 2008 02:50AM)
That'll help, thanks Bill. R.S.
Message: Posted by: JamesTong (Aug 2, 2008 10:00AM)
I believe everything we want to know about what kind of cups are available are all at the museum. Many of us go there for references.
Message: Posted by: walid ahumada (Aug 2, 2008 11:07AM)
BTW I just went to the museum looking for a set of cups they are selling on ebay and I could not find them. they are "Monte Style Cups and Balls" by Magic City company. are they in there somewhere?
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Aug 2, 2008 12:32PM)
I don't have a set of those. They look like Ickle Pickle traditionals to me, though. Magic City has several different firms manufacture cups for them.

Obviously, those are not "Monti" cups, though. I don't know why they called them "Monte" cups.
Message: Posted by: Sir Richard (Aug 2, 2008 05:10PM)
[quote]
On 2008-08-02 11:00, JamesTong wrote:
I believe everything we want to know about what kind of cups are available are all at the museum. Many of us go there for references.
[quote]
Hi James, it's really good to hear from you again; welcome back! I still remember how you directed me to this particular spot over a year ago when I 1st showed up.
Message: Posted by: JamesTong (Aug 3, 2008 09:44AM)
Hello Sir Richard, it is also nice to talk to you again. Did you manage to find the info you want at the museum? How about doing your own spreadsheet info comparison based on the cups category from the museum? Bill Palmer would be happy to help you out.
Message: Posted by: Sir Richard (Aug 3, 2008 10:59AM)
[quote]
On 2008-08-03 10:44, JamesTong wrote:
Hello Sir Richard, it is also nice to talk to you again. Did you manage to find the info you want at the museum? How about doing your own spreadsheet info comparison based on the cups category from the museum? Bill Palmer would be happy to help you out.
[/quote]
No to the 1st question as I can't remember my "Log-In" info so I'll probably have to re-do it. (A "senior-moment", but then I've been having them for 58 of my 61 years. :>)) The "spread-sheet" idea is a great one! However I'm currently using an obsolete HP computer with a Pentium 1 processor & Windows '98. However I'll see what I can do. I'd probably limit the data to that of cups that would be a viable option for "working" as opposed to "collecting" as it would, hopefully, be an aid to those looking for a good set of workingman's cups & lead them to options in their price range. I see many different points of interest here as to balance, quality & reputation of the manufacturer, durability, price, material composition, final load-handling, & length of time it takes to receive the order once placed, (perhaps that mght help curb some anxiety attacks. :>) Anybody here is welcome to P.M. me with their ideas on the subject as I can use all the help I can get. Thanks James! S.R.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Aug 5, 2008 04:25PM)
I think I just sent you the info you need to log in. If not, I'll resend it.

For a database, go to http://www.openoffice.org. Download Open Office. I think it will run on Windows 98.

It's free!!!!
Message: Posted by: Sir Richard (Aug 5, 2008 10:04PM)
[quote]
On 2008-08-05 17:25, Bill Palmer wrote:
I think I just sent you the info you need to log in. If not, I'll resend it.

For a database, go to http://www.openoffice.org. Download Open Office. I think it will run on Windows 98.

It's free!!!!
[/quote]
Yeah I got in Okay, thanks! I've fixed the problem that was keeping me off-line on my (slightly) newer computer that uses Windows 2000. I'm flying by the seat of my pants here on computer repair, but somehow manage to muddle through. I'm going to cheeck out your info data base at the Museum 1st to see what you've got. I've got quite a few ideas, including comments on sets from the experienced users in the past. It's going to take awhile, that's for sure! S.R.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Aug 5, 2008 11:40PM)
There are actually more fields in the database than you see when you log into the search function. There is information I have about certain sets that is personal, things like information the people I got them from wanted me to keep private.

The main thing is to allow plenty of room for input.
Message: Posted by: Sir Richard (Aug 6, 2008 01:13PM)
The Museum is HUGE! A guy could easily get lost in there for weeks & starve to death before "Search & Rescue" found him! ;>) Anyway there's so many sets of Cups available that I've thought about narrowing the field down to more "obvious" choices in 3 categories: Sets priced up to $200; sets priced between $201 to $499; & sets priced $500 & up. These sets should be a viable choice for the "working Magician as opposed to sets that would only sit in a display case; & will probably be limited to those easily obtainable; for example, while the Paul Fox cups are a thing of beauty, how easy are they to find? for that great info we have the Museum! I also have pretty much decided to research each set here on the forum to see what others have said before, then list each set here 1st to see if anyone else might wish to add anything; new members, new info after using, etc.. BTW, OpenOffice is a HUGE download & tells me that it requires 14 hours plus to load not to mention a ton of storage space. I'll see what I can do, but I don't know for sure, at this point, if I'll be able too or not.

S.R.
Message: Posted by: Sir Richard (Aug 6, 2008 01:29PM)
Post Script: I will also be leaving out all the "solicited" testamonials that dealers use to "sell" their products, like the following one from Jay Noblezada about the "Penguin Cups": (Note: It is my understanding that Jay is somehow connected to P.M. as well) "I have a set of Jim Sisti Cups, I have the Johnson Cups, I have the Phoenix Cups, I even have a set of old Paul Fox Cups - I've put them all aside for the Penguin Cups; they just feel better." My 1st thought upon reading this was to try & somehow communicate with Mr. Noblezada & see if he was interested in selling any of the used sets that he'd "set aside." IMHO,I feel that, while the P. Cups might be a good set for around a hundred bucks, I'd take any of the others that Jay mentioned over them in a heart-beat. S.R.
Message: Posted by: Richard Evans (Aug 6, 2008 01:43PM)
Not sure why he'd favour the Penguin cups over the Paul Fox cups since the Penguin cups are copies of the Fox cups (apart from being inferior quality to any of the Paul Fox cups ever made).
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Aug 6, 2008 06:40PM)
[quote]
On 2008-08-06 14:13, Sir Richard wrote:
The Museum is HUGE! A guy could easily get lost in there for weeks & starve to death before "Search & Rescue" found him! ;>) Anyway there's so many sets of Cups available that I've thought about narrowing the field down to more "obvious" choices in 3 categories: Sets priced up to $200; sets priced between $201 to $499; & sets priced $500 & up. These sets should be a viable choice for the "working Magician as opposed to sets that would only sit in a display case; & will probably be limited to those easily obtainable; for example, while the Paul Fox cups are a thing of beauty, how easy are they to find? for that great info we have the Museum! I also have pretty much decided to research each set here on the forum to see what others have said before, then list each set here 1st to see if anyone else might wish to add anything; new members, new info after using, etc.. BTW, OpenOffice is a HUGE download & tells me that it requires 14 hours plus to load not to mention a ton of storage space. I'll see what I can do, but I don't know for sure, at this point, if I'll be able too or not.

S.R.
[/quote]

I have a high speed connection, so it doesn't take much time for Open Office to download, and a 127 MB office suite is considerably smaller than, for example, Microsoft Office 2007. But if you have a slow connection, that is an almost interminable download.

But, do not despair, because you can get the thing on a CD for about $15.00 or so. If you go to a major computer store, such as Microcenter, you may find a magazine that is dedicated to Open Office. It will include the whole program. Or you can purchase the Cosmi office suite. It's basically the same thing. A lot of these repackaged programs like that are simply Open Office, since Sun decided to make the suite part of the open source project.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Aug 7, 2008 12:32AM)
[quote]
On 2008-08-06 14:43, Richard Evans wrote:
Not sure why he'd favour the Penguin cups over the Paul Fox cups since the Penguin cups are copies of the Fox cups (apart from being inferior quality to any of the Paul Fox cups ever made).
[/quote]

Since Jay has a connection to the Bird, it's in his best interest to promote their products.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Aug 7, 2008 12:37AM)
One thing that I have intentionally left out of my database is pricing. The reason is that prices are so unstable right now. For example, a set of Paul Fox/Danny Dew Type II cups, which are actually fairly plentiful, may sell for as low as $350 and as high as $3000, depending on who owned it, what metal it is made from and what kind of plating it has.

Ross Bertram cup prices are also all over the place.

Then there are special collectors' editions. For example, the HMS Victory cups, with case, wand and wand case, is a very expensive set of cups. There is only one set like them. There are more sets of the cups, but this set is the only one with the case, wand, etc.

Also, the chance of finding a set of these is very slim.

So, I would recommmend on the cups that are available retail, to indicate the MSRP. On collectors' cups, you could indicate a price range by $ $$ $$$ $$$$, etc.
Message: Posted by: Sir Richard (Aug 7, 2008 06:09AM)
I didn't know that about the "Danny Dew/Paul Fox cups Bill. As I said earlier perhaps "availability" should also be a consideration. BTW, who carries the aforementioned Cups? R.S.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Aug 7, 2008 02:53PM)
It would be interesting to know the original retail price on the cups, particularly the older cups. But I have no idea what kind of work this would entail.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Aug 7, 2008 04:48PM)
[quote]
On 2008-08-07 07:09, Sir Richard wrote:
I didn't know that about the "Danny Dew/Paul Fox cups Bill. As I said earlier perhaps "availability" should also be a consideration. BTW, who carries the aforementioned Cups? R.S.
[/quote]

Since they no longer manufactured -- haven't been in almost three decades -- the primary source for them is the used magic market. Auctions, used magic dealers and collectors is where you will find them.

So basically, nobody carries them. OTOH, Jake makes some very good reissues of said cups.
Message: Posted by: Levity (Aug 7, 2008 05:54PM)
Sir Richard,

I'd like to see exact measurements for all cups listed.

G
Message: Posted by: Sir Richard (Aug 7, 2008 10:04PM)
[quote]
On 2008-08-07 18:54, Levity wrote:
Sir Richard,

I'd like to see exact measurements for all cups listed.

G
[/quote]
I think that's not a bad idea, also what size "final load" the cups are supposed to handle as the measurements themselves might be misleading depending on the actual shape of the cup. S.R.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Aug 8, 2008 03:03AM)
If you know that a cup is a rounded top cup, you automatically have an idea of the relative size of the load to the cup. The final load size measurements on the museum site are practical to the extent that they tell you how large a ball will fit, with the exception of very large cups.

Most cups and balls routines end with a final load of larger balls, fruit or something similar. If you know what you want to produce, you can eliminate a large number of items that are available.

A rounded top cup, such as a Paul Fox cup, can take a larger load than a traditional cup of the same size, because the bottom part of the PF cup is basically a cylinder that goes up past the widest part of the load ball. Then the rounded section goes on, and simply provides a stopping point for the load. If the cylindrical section is too short, then the ultimate size of the load ball will be smaller, given the same diameter of the cylindrical section.

The traditioal cup does not have as efficient a load handling capability, because its cross section is basically a trapezoidal sitting on top of a rectangle. The amount of taper of the trapezoidal section and the height of the rectangular section determine the maximum size of round object that can go into the cups.