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Topic: Becoming a casino consultant
Message: Posted by: maturpia (Sep 22, 2008 06:49AM)
Maybe someone know something on how to become a casino consultant,like Darwin Ortiz or Sal Piacente ?

I mean,there are some courses to follow or is just about "personal knoledge" ?

I think it could be a very interesting work,for a card guy at least.
Message: Posted by: Expertmagician (Sep 22, 2008 08:00AM)
I only casually know Sal...so I do not know his backround....But, I grew up with Darwin.

I can tell you that Darwin did not take any courses. We used to hang out together with some of the countries finest card me in a Caféteria in New York.

As you know, many of the techniques used in card magic may also be used when gambling....so, this information is dual use technology.

While I do not know exactly when he started doing sleight of hand. I do know that I knew him for about 10 years before his moved out of new York and started doing casino consulting.

Bottom line: READ, practice and make friends in the business :)

Noting in life comes easy and there are no courses....sorry.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Sep 22, 2008 09:36AM)
A consultant is usually an expert or a professional in a specific field and has a wide knowledge of the subject matter. A consultant usually works for a consultancy firm or is self-employed, and engages with multiple and changing clients. Thus, clients have access to deeper levels of expertise than would be feasible for them to retain in-house, and to purchase only as much service from the outside consultant as desired.

In-house casino staff are experts on the normal procedures at the tables. Whereas a game protection consultant is not only that but he is also an expert on Artifice Ruse and Subterfuge at the Tables that appear to be normal to casino staff or casino staff that claim it does, bearing in mind that you can‘t trust anyone.

In nutshell; I figure it is about independent expert advice.

Actually thinking about it: If you go to their sites I guess they will tell there what their service is about.

Wait a minute.....Why am I even speaking to guys like you. :)
Message: Posted by: maturpia (Sep 23, 2008 03:31AM)
Ok,I'm starting to realising what a consultat is about.For what concern sleight of hand,I mastered(and I'm working on) on all the main card moves in use today at the card table(from Erdnase to GPS).But,I was wondering if there for example some videos that teach timing and motion analysis or things like that,videos that can't be found on the usual magic shop,where all in all can be found things like "Caino Game Protection".
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 23, 2008 10:11AM)
If you are going to do this your "rep" is what is going to help.

Either have a great real one, or fake a great fake one LOL. I doubt learning some moves out of Eardnase is going to tip the scales on the interview though.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Sep 23, 2008 02:41PM)
Look around this site, ask them. Try Google, “casino game protection training”

Message: Posted by: Bret Maverick (Sep 23, 2008 04:17PM)

As Tommy explained, casino consultants are well-versed on all facets of casino operation; they can demonstrate ways that table games lacking solid internal controls and procedures can be beaten; and they provide advice and instruction on implementing and maintaining sound procedures to protect the games.

Since Steve Forte is not presently offering consultation, I will not discuss his obvious qualifications and attributes. Suffice it to say that I was an attendee at several of his protection seminars in 1997, and still rave about them today.

Sal Piacente, like most game protection consultants, began his career as a casino dealer, first developing a knowledge and, later, a mastery of dealing procedures. And, like most game protection consultants, Sal grew up with a passion for learning all there is to know about card manipulation, ploys, and advantage play. Before venturing out on his own as a casino consultant, Sal further developed his skill and understanding during his employ with International Gaming Consultants in New Jersey and, later, while working with the master of game protection, Steve Forte, at International Gaming Specialists in Las Vegas. Sal’s mnemonic techniques are, incidentally, unparalleled.

As an attendee of one of Sal’s surveillance operators’ seminars I can vouch for his vast knowledge of the varied subject matter presented, and his ability to both convey it in understandable terms to the attendees, and flawlessly demonstrate the sleights and other ploys.

Bill Zender, game protection expert and the author of several terrific books for casino executives, is uniquely qualified to operate his consulting business by virtue of his more than thirty years experience as a dealer, floor supervisor and casino manager; an investigative Agent for the Nevada Gaming Control; his Master of Business Administration degree; and his stint as a casino co-owner.

George Joseph, currently the President of Worldwide Casino Consulting, initially learned to handle cards as a budding magician when he was tipped to the real work by an ex-grifter-turned-Vaudevillian stage man. After performing as the house magician at several major casinos in the 1970’s, George parlayed his card and dice handling skills into a casino surveillance job, and rose through the ranks to Director of Surveillance at some of the world’s largest casino companies.

With a face quickly recognized from his countless appearances on TV cheating exposes, George is also the author of four books and several videotapes, one of which, if I recall correctly, was the first game protection videotape released to the public.

As a court-qualified expert in casino surveillance and cheating techniques he has explained and demonstrated cheating as a witness for the prosecution in court rooms around the world. George has also served on the Board of Directors and Ethics Committee for the Nevada Polygraph Association. Having attended seven of George’s surveillance operators’, gaming regulators’ and law enforcement seminars I am always amazed at his depth of knowledge; is ability to convey it vocally and through demonstrations; and his ability to hold the attention of his audiences with his wit, humor and affable personality.

While there are a few others around today with seemingly qualified pedigrees presenting themselves as game protection experts, I’ve found some to be little more than scare-mongering, dog-and-pony show operators frightening their clients into believing that card muckers, dice switchers and roulette scamsters are on every one of their tables.

Others are merely magicians with no practical casino gaming experience or knowledge of casino procedures, policies or protocol who pass themselves off as game protection experts.

In my opinion, what separates the gaming protection experts who have “crossed the line” at some point in their lives from those that have merely added cheating techniques to their magic repertoire, is that the ex-cheats are now free to perform without any risk the moves that, if detected in their past, could have resulted in criminal prosecution or physical harm. These instructors have lived a life where the moves became second nature to them; they are not simply performing an act like a magician. They also seem to revel in exposing their techniques to the gaming regulators’ and law enforcement communities. Whether it’s some form of repentance, a true desire to rid the casinos of cheats, or just a great way to make a living, I’m not sure. It’s probably a little of all three.

Nevertheless, I don’t think that any but the most recent entrants among the truly qualified experts ever set their sights on becoming a gaming consultant when starting out; it just happened.

So, in my round-about way of answering your question, maturpia, becoming a true game protection expert takes decades of intimate experience in all facets of casino gambling; good chops; the right personality; good industry connections; the right timing; and a lot of good luck.

Message: Posted by: iamslow (Sep 23, 2008 05:25PM)
Learn how to deal all the games "very well" with your eyes closed... ;)

Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Sep 23, 2008 05:45PM)
No mention of the real game protection masters, "Professor" Mike Joseph and Richard Marcus?? I'm outraged!

I think it takes a lot more than being able to deal proficiently. I know guys who've been dealing 30 plus years who haven't the slightest clue about scamming. It is such a rarity to begin with that if they're never exposed to it on a personal level during their career then how can one expect them to know about it?

Knowledge of the games and procedures is important, but then the best scams are designed to adhere to said procedures.

At the end of the day, it takes a sincere interest and passion to educate yourself about this stuff. Most floormen I know would rather just call upstairs and pass the buck to surveillance. All that fancy camera tech doesn't mean squat if the pit personnel can't smell what's around the corner. All I have to do is throw a player's card on the layout and the floor's eyes will be completely off the game while he's farting around on table touch. Most casinos in Vegas are starting to do away with Pit Clerks.

Message: Posted by: iamslow (Sep 23, 2008 06:44PM)
Hey Z, I only meant that as a start... :)
Message: Posted by: tommy (Sep 23, 2008 07:09PM)
Send the Casino a letter telling them you’re a game protection expert, that you have spotted they have a real problem, that could be costing them millions. You are at their service for a fee of $100,00 which will solve their problem. It will drive them nuts looking for the problem.
They will agree to hire you when they can’t find it. Now all you have to do is go in and create the illusion of the problem they have not got and get paid.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Sep 23, 2008 08:39PM)
On 2008-09-23 18:45, Mr. Z wrote:
No mention of the real game protection masters, "Professor" Mike Joseph [...] I'm outraged!

Z, you're the man. Really. I knew you had a great knowledge, but naming Mike Joseph demonstrates its depth. Everyone should have viewed his magnificent videos, the lady besides him is attractive. He shows even different finishes of Bee cards. Really, an invaluable piece of expertness...
Message: Posted by: h2o (Sep 24, 2008 02:09AM)
On 2008-09-23 21:39, AMcD wrote:
Z, you're the man. Really. I knew you had a great knowledge, but naming Mike Joseph demonstrates its depth.

A depth of sarcastic humour indeed ^^
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Sep 24, 2008 05:22AM)
You think so? :).

I enjoy reading Z, it seems he knows everyone who has ever written 3 words about cheating. Great knowledge. Well, his stacking technique is really too slow but, anyway, nobody's perfect.
Message: Posted by: maturpia (Sep 24, 2008 06:49AM)
Thank you very much guys! I think I may start as a dealer :)
Message: Posted by: The Dowser (Sep 25, 2008 06:28AM)
If there is any area that would provide a launching pad for this kind of work, I suppose it would be surveillance. All the other areas mentioned before would contribute of course... Table games experience for example. But Surveillance experience would be your best bet and would also open your eyes to what is really involved and just how valuable your card manipulation knowledge is (or isn't). You will also be in a position to see these seminars that are offered by the few who are making their living this way. Seek these guys out and ask them what it takes to break into the field. The two that I've met are really nice and generous guys... but like anything else... no one is gonna hand it to you.
Message: Posted by: iamslow (Sep 25, 2008 02:59PM)
All in all, the more you know about how every aspect of the business runs(that includes slots), the better your chances at succeeding... Also, get to know the veterans in the game and ask questions... You will find many of the old timers will be able to tell you about scams... not just the sleight of hand, but everything else as well...There are some people here that can help, but you better be willing to help yourself too... just like mama said " you gotta pay the piper"

Message: Posted by: The Dowser (Sep 26, 2008 05:50AM)
I shouldn't have said it better myself.
Message: Posted by: silverking (Sep 26, 2008 10:13AM)
There are often "brick walls" put up in order to find out just who has the balls to find their way around them.
The folks that find their way around those walls usually get the shot at the opportunity.

You can pretty much find your way into any kind of job you might want to if you take the time to ensure that you're not following the exact same map that the other 5000 folks who might be competing with you for the one opportunity when it finally comes up.

In effect, change the moment.
Don't do what your competition thinks is the thing to do......but rather do what they're [i]not[/i] doing.

It goes without saying that you've also got to be dead serious, willing to bust your hump, and maintain your overall chops on the topic at a level far higher than most do.

Forte's big book is an amazing resource when discussing this subject, and in your case you could use it (along with formal training and casino employment) to get a leg up on those who might pursue the same eventual career you're destined for.

Good luck.