(Close Window)
Topic: My first set of cups and Tommy Wonder's Routine
Message: Posted by: Close.Up.Dave (Sep 24, 2008 10:50PM)
I've practiced cups and balls before with cheaper sets of cups for cups and balls before. I mostly practiced Johnny Thomson's routine on his videos. Anyway I decided to get a set of good cups and my plan is to learn Tommy Wonder's Two Cup Routine. In the book he says he uses Paul Fox cups, but he also says that any cup will do. Therefore I'm wondering what set would be best (that are not extremely expensive) since both pompoms have to be able to fit into them. Johnsons are decently priced and are quite popular. Any thoughts?
Message: Posted by: Eddie Torres (Sep 24, 2008 10:57PM)
Johnson's are good, RNT2 is selling a ton of stuff at some great prices, all their stuff is good. There are tons of threads on here about this kind of thing if you do a search you'll find all sorts of reccommendations.

Eddie
Message: Posted by: Josh the Superfluous (Sep 24, 2008 11:10PM)
You sound like you're serious. Johnson's are nice, but maybe you should look at some fancier ones. There are some pretty nice used sets going around right now (Thanks to the economy :().
Message: Posted by: kentfgunn (Sep 25, 2008 12:04AM)
http://www.rnt.com

Get spun cups. They have a soul. CNC machined cups, for me, are missing something. Tell Jake you want to do Wonder's routine. He will be able to advise you on which set is best.
Message: Posted by: pepka (Sep 25, 2008 12:27AM)
More important than the cups for Tommy's routine are the balls and bag. I have plans to learn it, but am stalled on the person making them. I think Jake may have stated on another thread that the Shibby cups would work well for Tommy's routine.
Message: Posted by: Eddie Torres (Sep 25, 2008 01:28AM)
Kent forgot the 2, it's

http://www.rnt2.com

unless of course you're also interested in managing your assetts :P

Eddie
Message: Posted by: L Trunk (Sep 25, 2008 02:06AM)
There was a 2 cup set of the Shibby cups available for a while but it's been moved to the "archives" section of rnt2.com. The Shibby cups look great, plus since it was a 2 cup set it was cheaper than a 3 cup set. Nice set for less! If you ask one of the folks at rnt2 you might be lucky and be able to get a 2 cup deal?
Message: Posted by: kentfgunn (Sep 25, 2008 02:34AM)
MajikAbra,

Good catch, thank you for steering properly!

Magicians helping magicians . . . learn to type correctly!
Message: Posted by: James Alan (Sep 25, 2008 08:18AM)
Not that you have to go the same route, but when Tommy sold a limited number of sets for his routine (including the bag and pompoms) he sold them with Morrissey cups (www.morrisseymagic.com)
Message: Posted by: Michael Baker (Sep 25, 2008 08:24AM)
[quote]
On 2008-09-25 01:27, pepka wrote:
More important than the cups for Tommy's routine are the balls and bag. I have plans to learn it, but am stalled on the person making them.
[/quote]

The Pompoms... definitely the key to the whole thing. Almost any cups will work, as long as the balls fit according to the description in Tommy Wonder's routine. I used a set of Morrissey Minis when the lecture notes on this routine first came out. I already had them, and made the balls to fit the cups.

Pepka,

Just make them yourself. It's a lot easier than you might think.
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (Sep 25, 2008 08:39AM)
I am presently in the same situation. Now I have the cups. James Tong is custom making by bag and pom pom. http://www.uniquemagicballs.com
Message: Posted by: Close.Up.Dave (Sep 25, 2008 01:09PM)
Yeah making the balls won't be a problem. I just wanted to make sure that I didn't get cups that were too small and would take away from the overall effectiveness of the routine.
Message: Posted by: Lawrence O (Sep 25, 2008 03:26PM)
Get into the routine. It's a good idea to start with Tommy's routine instead of starting, like most of us, with Vernon or Michael Ammar. You will contribute to diversity.
Let not the cup question distract you, the routine is about focusing attention and misdirection.
I wish that there would be some other beginners at the cups and balls starting with Sam Leo Horowitz's routine (In Garcia's book), or Aldo Colombini (the Fabian routine printed at many places), or Dick Biow (The Sponge Ball King's Cups and Balls) or Kent Gunn (Fun Shop) or Doug Peters routine.

Even though creating a caracter and an original script is more important than the routine, I tend to think that starting at some different sources increases the creativity in the community.
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Sep 25, 2008 06:32PM)
I think that is good advice and suggest to many the Johnny Paul Routine would set them apart from the herd.
Message: Posted by: Lawrence O (Sep 25, 2008 07:26PM)
Hi Pete
Your point is illustrated, as usual, with a very well picked example since Johnny Paul made, as you know, an extremely entertaining and personal presentation of Jim Ryan's technically original routine (in print, when, to my knowledge, Johnny Paul's routine can only be seen in performance on Joe and Amy Stevens video without full explanations)
Message: Posted by: Mobius303 (Sep 25, 2008 08:45PM)
There is a full explanation of Johnny's routine on the Stevens video.
It was reissued on the Teach in Session video on the Cups and Balls 1997.
Perhaps I am mis reading your post Lawrence..do you mean that Jim Ryan's routine was in print before Johhny Paul's was on video? Or Do you mean that Johhny Paul was performing a version of the Jim Ryan Routine?

Thanks,
Mobius
Message: Posted by: James Alan (Sep 25, 2008 09:07PM)
[quote]
On 2008-09-25 16:26, Lawrence O wrote:
Get into the routine. It's a good idea to start with Tommy's routine instead of starting, like most of us, with Vernon or Michael Ammar. You will contribute to diversity.
[/quote]

Tommy's routine is an unparalleled fusion of routining and design. Watching Tommy perform it is like watching poetry in motion.

That being said, it's an awful routine to start with. First, the balls required for the size of the cup (you know what that means if you've read the routine) are quite large and difficult to manipulate. The major effects rely on strong misdirection and when you get caught... you get caught big time.

It's safe to say that the routine is beyond the technical and presentational ability of 99.9% of magicians. To use it as a starting routine is to set yourself up for tremendous disappointment.
Message: Posted by: walid ahumada (Sep 25, 2008 09:15PM)
I belive johnny paul has been in more than one video, I have not seen all, however in the Cups & Balls Greater Magic Teach In DVD # 1 There is a full explanation.
Message: Posted by: Josh the Superfluous (Sep 25, 2008 11:41PM)
[quote]
On 2008-09-25 16:26, Lawrence O wrote:
Get into the routine. It's a good idea to start with Tommy's routine instead of starting, like most of us, with Vernon or Michael Ammar. You will contribute to diversity.
Let not the cup question distract you, the routine is about focusing attention and misdirection.
I wish that there would be some other beginners at the cups and balls starting with ...Kent Gunn (Fun Shop)...
[/quote]

I agree with your thinking. But, Kent Gunn's routine is not well suited for a beginner. And the prop selection is critical to his routine.
Message: Posted by: Close.Up.Dave (Sep 26, 2008 12:52AM)
I have experience with cups and balls and I'm not at all afraid to try anything new and I can handle that. That being said, going into my question, I got some Paul Fox style cups today and they're great. Just working on getting the right size balls made and I ordered the Tarbell rope gimmick also. I should have this routine rolling soon. Thanks!
Message: Posted by: L Trunk (Sep 26, 2008 05:30AM)
There wouldn't be many people selling balls suitable for the Fun Shop routine either. Maybe rnt2 and uniqueballs?
Message: Posted by: Lawrence O (Sep 26, 2008 08:22AM)
[quote]
On 2008-09-25 21:45, Mobius303 wrote:
There is a full explanation of Johnny's routine on the Stevens video.
It was reissued on the Teach in Session video on the Cups and Balls 1997.
Perhaps I am mis reading your post Lawrence..do you mean that Jim Ryan's routine was in print before Johhny Paul's was on video? Or Do you mean that Johhny Paul was performing a version of the Jim Ryan Routine?

Thanks,
Mobius


[/quote]

I don't remember the answer to your question [I'm almost sure that Jim Ryan's routine was in print before] and since Johnny Paul as well as Jim Ryan were performing their routines for years before Joe Stevens picked up Johnny's one for his Greater Magic Video Series it would not be significant to discover if the Ryan routine was printed a couple of years before. It may well be that they both agreed about it since Johnny's routine showcasts his generous personnality so well
Message: Posted by: Lawrence O (Sep 26, 2008 11:36AM)
According to my notes Jim Ryan's routine was first published in 1926
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Sep 26, 2008 12:44PM)
Both Ryan and Paul were Chicago bar magicians... and I have no idea who was first. Wish I knew. However, both were terrific performers and much can be learned from their work. The Johnny Paul video teach in is priceless to see what can be done with his handling.

Again, if you learn this routine, it is perfect when the conditions are right.

(blatant plug: You can still buy the JP cups from http://www.stevensmagic.com )
Message: Posted by: Lawrence O (Sep 28, 2008 04:25PM)
[quote]
On 2008-09-25 22:07, James Alan wrote:

Tommy's routine is an unparalleled fusion of routining and design. Watching Tommy perform it is like watching poetry in motion.

...

It's safe to say that the routine is beyond the technical and presentational ability of 99.9% of magicians. To use it as a starting routine is to set yourself up for tremendous disappointment.
[/quote]

Tommy was really a good friend and I love his routine as much as you do. I think however that his routine is not any less forgiving than any other one.
I have a policy to never discourage any magician and believe me, his C&Bs routine is much easier than his coin routine. I'm afraid that your comment results from the fame of the routine.
I have several ideas to adapt Tommy's routine to other performers.
I'll give you the most simple one: use combo cups...
I could make other suggestions but it's better to let everyone imagination fly freely.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Sep 28, 2008 04:53PM)
I obtained one of the sets Tommy sold from Mike Henkel. I e-mailed Tommy about the cups because they appeared to be Morrissey cups. He said that's exactly what they were. He chose them because the height to mouth diameter ratio was just about perfect for the routine, and because they were rather inexpensive.
Message: Posted by: James Alan (Sep 28, 2008 08:00PM)
[quote]
On 2008-09-28 17:25, Lawrence O wrote:

Tommy was really a good friend and I love his routine as much as you do. I think however that his routine is not any less forgiving than any other one.
I have a policy to never discourage any magician and believe me, his C&Bs routine is much easier than his coin routine. I'm afraid that your comment results from the fame of the routine.

[/quote]

Actually, my opinion comes from taking the time to make the balls, knit the bag, walking down the street to Morrissey's to get the cups and spending about 8 months practicing it daily.

Magic relying abundantly on misdirection may seem simple on the surface, but is very easy to butcher. Improperly performed, a sophisticated audience will eat you alive.
Message: Posted by: James Alan (Sep 28, 2008 08:02PM)
Which coin routine are you talking about?
Message: Posted by: Lawrence O (Sep 29, 2008 12:23PM)
[quote]
On 2008-09-28 21:02, James Alan wrote:
Which coin routine are you talking about?
[/quote]

Your question makes a lot of sense
I was not speaking of counterfeit coins which is very easy but about Coins Across And Back With Interlude, which requires more experience with coins.
Sorry I should have been more precise.
Message: Posted by: James Alan (Sep 29, 2008 06:11PM)
I love that coin routine. It's a marvelous lesson in "natural misdirection" - the routine is so well sequenced both in terms of method and psychology that you simply have to do the moves as described and the misdirection actually looks after itself. Excluding the optional climax (which I can't do since I wear glasses) the most difficult move is to drop coins singly from the classic palm.

Originally, after I'd been studying the routine for about a month, before I started performing it, Juan Tamariz was lecturing and I wanted to ask him about the background behind some of the techniques (since they were supposed to have originated in a publication of his in Spanish). He asked me to show him the routine, and pieces of it fooled him (!). Of course I'm the first to admit that this had little to do with my actual skill and everything to do with Tommy's structure.
Message: Posted by: plungerman (Sep 29, 2008 07:59PM)
Yes, to repeat, the cups are Morrissey. You can tell from the illustrations in the book. As nice as they are, the PF cups will be hard to make or find the right balls for. Just as Bill was saying, the mouth to hight ratio.

By way of beaking into the effects, I wonder if it's possible to place one or two of the efects into a more standard routine. So, given a good audience, you could get the kind of practice that counts.

Who said, "We practice/master our craft to a mirror but our art to an audience." ??
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Sep 29, 2008 11:29PM)
Not me.... :kermit: