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Topic: Just what are the rules?
Message: Posted by: gimpy2 (Oct 9, 2008 01:16AM)
I just can't seem to find out what the rules are when you are trying to produce magic effects. Is there an agreed on list of do's and don't's?

Is there a time limit that someone holds exclusive rights on certain effects, or is it forever?

How do you go about owning the rights to an effect? Do you sign up somewhere?

How much different does a trick have to be from something else out there to be new?

I understand that it would be wrong to say... make a tape measure that you would be able to predict a random measurement, but can you improve say...a duck bucket?

Thanks for any help, Gimpy
Message: Posted by: truthteller (Oct 14, 2008 02:58PM)
Gimpy,

FIrst, if the idea is associated with someone, just ask permission. Get permission and you are fine.

Sometimes, in obtaining that permission, one works out a financial agreement. I bought the license to a trick some time ago. I knew the person who was making/selling it and we came to a figure we were both happy with.

If you create something that IS new, then we would hope others would respect that and seek out your permission should they desire to copy it. As far as being known as the official "right holder" (baring copyright issues) there really is no database for that information. But if enough people know it to be your idea, I think you will find yourself defended should any issue arise.

As to the difference argument - that is a tough one. Getting permission will always take care of that issue. But I think if you are in doubt, then perhaps it is too close. Is changing the method enough? In which case a new tape measure could be perfectly ethical. Or, do we grant rights to the creator of an "effect?"

Different people have different opinions here.

I would think, though, that duck buckets are free for tampering.

Brad Henderson
Message: Posted by: Cleverpaws (Feb 1, 2019 04:10PM)
What if you wanted to recreate a magic effect from the late 1800s or early 1900s and the original creator has long since died (~1930) and the person that was making it with them died in ~1950?
How would you go about tracing the lineage of successors? Would it be ok to make this effect almost identical and sell it?
Message: Posted by: danaruns (Feb 2, 2019 10:29AM)
You can't "own" methods.
Message: Posted by: longhaired1 (Feb 2, 2019 03:33PM)
Are you talking about rules to market effects or perform them, or both?
Message: Posted by: Cleverpaws (Feb 2, 2019 04:20PM)
Im curious about marketing an actual item that is no longer being made. Im going to guess Gimpy is asking the same as hes a maker also.
Message: Posted by: Deckstacker (May 14, 2019 02:40PM)
Before discovering a current online source for the well-known "Pop Up Tie Gimmick" (having lost mine from years ago) I considered making one in my garage workshop for my own personal use. I'm guessing that would have been okay. (?) But what if I'd also made several more and offered them up on eBay or elsewhere? Would anybody have really cared? --I realize that this is probably a trivial example of a perhaps out-of-patent item, if indeed it was ever patented. It's the principle I'm more interested in here. Any thoughts---anybody?
Message: Posted by: JoshDude849 (Aug 24, 2019 01:49AM)
If people were creative like they were back in the day, we wouldn't have to worry about using someone else's tricks.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 24, 2019 01:09PM)
Yeah because back in the day with guys like Houdini nobody ever accused anyone of things like this.

I am going to suggest reading a little more about things "back in the day".
Message: Posted by: Dick Oslund (Aug 25, 2019 01:24AM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2019, danaruns wrote:
You can't "own" methods. [/quote]

Ya can't "own" effects, either! Fitzkee "identified" only 19 effects in his "Trick Brain" in the mid "40s!

An "effect" is "what the spectator perceives". (production, vanish, transposition, transformation, restoration, penetration, levitation, animation, etc.)
Message: Posted by: Dick Oslund (Aug 25, 2019 01:30AM)
RC[quote]On May 14, 2019, Deckstacker wrote:
Before discovering a current online source for the well-known "Pop Up Tie Gimmick" (having lost mine from years ago) I considered making one in my garage workshop for my own personal use. I'm guessing that would have been okay. (?) But what if I'd also made several more and offered them up on eBay or elsewhere? Would anybody have really cared? --I realize that this is probably a trivial example of a perhaps out-of-patent item, if indeed it was ever patented. It's the principle I'm more interested in here. Any thoughts---anybody? [/quote]

Jack London,IIRC, "invented" that in the mid '40s. I had one. It was a visual gag, prop.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 26, 2019 09:49PM)
I had one from one of the catalogues when I was a kid. I wore it to elementary school on assembly days.

I forget who suggested using it as a Glorpy with hanky held in front of your chest.
Message: Posted by: Cleverpaws (Aug 26, 2019 09:59PM)
Any chance we can get back to OP's original topic/questions?
Message: Posted by: Julie (Aug 26, 2019 10:58PM)
It would occasionally "pop-up" in early movies and later t.v. shows, too. :)

Julie
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 27, 2019 11:34AM)
[quote]On Aug 26, 2019, Cleverpaws wrote:
Any chance we can get back to OP's original topic/questions? [/quote]

What is this your first day?
Message: Posted by: Dick Oslund (Sep 11, 2019 09:53AM)
[quote]On Oct 9, 2008, gimpy2 wrote:
I just can't seem to find out what the rules are when you are trying to produce magic effects. Is there an agreed on list of do's and don't's?

Is there a time limit that someone holds exclusive rights on certain effects, or is it forever?

How do you go about owning the rights to an effect? Do you sign up somewhere?

How much different does a trick have to be from something else out there to be new?

I understand that it would be wrong to say... make a tape measure that you would be able to predict a random measurement, but can you improve say...a duck bucket?

Thanks for any help, Gimpy [/quote]

An EFFECT IS WHAT THE SPECTATOR PERCEIVES.

Therefore: There aint no such list.

You cannot own "rights" to any EFFECT.

Darn near impossible to answer!!!

Duck Bucket? Use a wash tub, and a herd of ducks. Harry Jr. had a spectator look inside the bucket. He said, "You can see YOURSELF (!!!) the bucket is empty!
Message: Posted by: Dick Oslund (Sep 11, 2019 04:11PM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2019, longhaired1 wrote:
Are you talking about rules to market effects or perform them, or both? [/quote]

The EFFECT is what the spectator PERCEIVES! (ya CANNOT market OR PERFORM an EFFECT

Ya cannot market or sell (or buy) a TRICK. Ya CAN PERFORM a trick. (A trick, somewhat like music, only exists while it is being PERFORMED.
Message: Posted by: Dick Oslund (Sep 11, 2019 04:14PM)
[quote]On Aug 24, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
Yeah because back in the day with guys like Houdini nobody ever accused anyone of things like this.

I am going to suggest reading a little more about things "back in the day". [/quote]

YUP! If you don't study history, you are "condemned" to repeat it!
Message: Posted by: Cleverpaws (Sep 11, 2019 05:08PM)
So it seems that we are now discussing technicalities of word definitions rather than magic or answering the original question.
I've been on the Caf long enough to know that this is where many threads go (in a different direction) but for those of us that would like to have some good advice about " not an effect, not a trick" , but an illusion:

"Definition of illusion" according to the Webster dictionary
1a(1) : a misleading image presented to the vision : OPTICAL ILLUSION
(2) : something that deceives or misleads intellectually.

Perhaps someone on here could reply to the original question with some real advice. Or should we just start new threads each time a reply goes off track?
Message: Posted by: Dick Oslund (Sep 11, 2019 07:04PM)
I'll respond tomorrow, to your above post. I'm too tired tonight. Maybe you haven't been around, long enough. When you don't know what an EFFECT IS, it's obvious that you're a Johnny Come Lately, The OP, and, perhaps YOU, should read TARBELL, so you know what you are talking about.
Message: Posted by: servant (Sep 12, 2019 10:23AM)
[quote]On Sep 11, 2019, Dick Oslund wrote:
I'll respond tomorrow, to your above post. I'm too tired tonight. Maybe you haven't been around, long enough. When you don't know what an EFFECT IS, it's obvious that you're a Johnny Come Lately, The OP, and, perhaps YOU, should read TARBELL, so you know what you are talking about. [/quote]

This is very interesting to me Mr. Oslund, because I know I've accidentally interchanged these words before. An effect is what the audience perceives. A trick is what the magician performs. So what the magician purchases from a supplier would either be a gimmick or the instructions on how to perform a trick. Am I right? Or am I wrong?
Message: Posted by: Dick Oslund (Sep 12, 2019 04:36PM)
It could be a prop! (e.g.; a silk, or a set of "xxxing" balls, or a deck of gaffed cards or even an Okito Box! (Those are not gimmicks. A gimmick is an unseen device", needed to perform a trick. Yea, you are basically correct.

I get very impatient with "magicians" (note " " !) who don't know basic nomenclature, and, don't bother to learn.

I learned those terms, when I was 14.

Gimpy started this thread in 2008. I get tired of "educating" these so called magicians who don't know basic terms.

I'm 87. I'm considering canceling my "membership" (for want of a better term). I have better things to do!

It's apparent that YOU have read one of my posts before. I hope that you've benefited.
Message: Posted by: servant (Sep 12, 2019 04:55PM)
[quote]On Sep 12, 2019, Dick Oslund wrote:
It could be a prop! (e.g.; a silk, or a set of "xxxing" balls, or a deck of gaffed cards or even an Okito Box! (Those are not gimmicks. A gimmick is an unseen device", needed to perform a trick. Yea, you are basically correct.

I get very impatient with "magicians" (note " " !) who don't know basic nomenclature, and, don't bother to learn.

I learned those terms, when I was 14.

Gimpy started this thread in 2008. I get tired of "educating" these so called magicians who don't know basic terms.

I'm 87. I'm considering canceling my "membership" (for want of a better term). I have better things to do!

It's apparent that YOU have read one of my posts before. I hope that you've benefited. [/quote]

Ah yes, props. Thanks for responding. I try to soak in your wisdom when I see it!

I truly hope that you wouldn't "cancel your membership" on account of "wanna-be" magicians like me. Your advice on this board is invaluable. We just need more appreciative souls for all that you have and continue to contribute to the community.

If I can ever return the favor, please let me know. Specifically, I work in computers and technology. If you ever need anything, I'm your guy.

Thanks for all you do.
Message: Posted by: Dick Oslund (Sep 17, 2019 12:48PM)
You are most welcome!

It IS exasperating to read some of these posts when it is obvious that the guy hasn't read the entire thread, and, complains, when someone else tries to clarify a point, or expression which is either wrong, or unclear. (Especially when the OP, or someone else commenting, doesn't know what he is talking about. )

You appear to be serious about learning! It's a pleasure to correspond with someone like you.

When Jon Racherbaumer insisted that I write a book, I bought a lap top "infernal electrisch peckenclacker". It sat on my desk top for several weeks before I opened the lid! I was born "too soon" (1931) and definitely not a computer maven!!! In the Navy (1951-1955) I could type about 99 words a minute. Now, at 87. I'm lucky to do 15! (The mind is working fine, but the fingers don't cooperate!

With your "encouragement", I'll endeavor to "hang in there", at least for awhile!

I, fortunately, had several great mentors, when I was a Johnny come lately. They insisted that I read, no, STUDY, knowledgeable, qualified authors. It "paid off". I was able to develop a show that could play almost anywhere, for almost any group. I was never at liberty, in almost 50 years.
Message: Posted by: Animated Puppets (Sep 17, 2019 01:22PM)
[quote]On Sep 17, 2019, Dick Oslund wrote: In the Navy (1951-1955) I could type about 99 words a minute. Now, at 87. I'm lucky to do 15! (The mind is working fine, but the fingers don't cooperate! [/quote]


You may be interested in Dragon Speak software. It will type what you say and adjust to your voice inclinations. I bought it for my Dad years ago and he had no experience with computers prior.

https://www.nuance.com/dragon.html
Message: Posted by: Cleverpaws (Sep 17, 2019 02:23PM)
When can we get back on to the original topic?
Message: Posted by: servant (Sep 17, 2019 02:47PM)
[quote]On Sep 17, 2019, Cleverpaws wrote:
When can we get back on to the original topic? [/quote]

I feel like you may need to clarify your earlier question, per Mr. Oslund's posts.

That aside, is there some sort of patent involved that may be owned by someone?
Message: Posted by: Cleverpaws (Sep 17, 2019 03:01PM)
Quote:
On Sep 17, 2019, Cleverpaws wrote:
When can we get back on to the original topic?


I feel like you may need to clarify your earlier question, per Mr. Oslund's posts.

The above reply is why people should just respond with useful information to the original question, instead of going off topic.

I've replaced the OP's original incorrect words (according to Mr. Oslund) with the correct word in "CAPITAL LETTERS" so that perhaps we can get back to the original query.

Those who would like to get into the technicality of word usage, could start their own thread...

[quote]On Oct 8, 2008, gimpy2 wrote:
I just can't seem to find out what the rules are when you are trying to produce magic (PROP or ILLUSION). Is there an agreed on list of do's and don't's?

Is there a time limit that someone holds exclusive rights on certain (PROP or ILLUSION), or is it forever?

How do you go about owning the rights to an (PROP or ILLUSION) ? Do you sign up somewhere?

How much different does a (PROP or ILLUSION) have to be from something else out there to be new?

I understand that it would be wrong to say... make a tape measure that you would be able to predict a random measurement, but can you improve say...a duck bucket?

Thanks for any help, Gimpy [/quote]
Message: Posted by: servant (Sep 17, 2019 09:15PM)
[quote]On Sep 17, 2019, Cleverpaws wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 17, 2019, Cleverpaws wrote:
When can we get back on to the original topic?


I feel like you may need to clarify your earlier question, per Mr. Oslund's posts.

The above reply is why people should just respond with useful information to the original question, instead of going off topic.

I've replaced the OP's original incorrect words (according to Mr. Oslund) with the correct word in "CAPITAL LETTERS" so that perhaps we can get back to the original query.

Those who would like to get into the technicality of word usage, could start their own thread...

[quote]On Oct 8, 2008, gimpy2 wrote:
I just can't seem to find out what the rules are when you are trying to produce magic (PROP or ILLUSION). Is there an agreed on list of do's and don't's?

Is there a time limit that someone holds exclusive rights on certain (PROP or ILLUSION), or is it forever?

How do you go about owning the rights to an (PROP or ILLUSION) ? Do you sign up somewhere?

How much different does a (PROP or ILLUSION) have to be from something else out there to be new?

I understand that it would be wrong to say... make a tape measure that you would be able to predict a random measurement, but can you improve say...a duck bucket?

Thanks for any help, Gimpy [/quote] [/quote]

Here's an interesting article. Would be interesting to know what an attorney says.

https://www.wired.com/2013/07/the-tricky-business-of-innovation-can-you-patent-a-magic-trick/