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Topic: Ambitious
Message: Posted by: twiztedmusky (Apr 15, 2003 11:53PM)
I was wondering do people like to use there D lifts or the pass mostly?
Message: Posted by: redstreak (Apr 15, 2003 11:57PM)
there are many, many different sleights that can be used, I don't use the pass in my routine. PM if you want mine.
Message: Posted by: johnathanblades (Apr 16, 2003 12:49AM)
I never pass.
Message: Posted by: MyTurnPlzAA (Apr 16, 2003 03:18AM)
I never pass...

Snap Double for me when doing this effect..


Message: Posted by: Paul (Apr 16, 2003 03:55AM)
Not many use a pass for this routine, but I have seen it used to conclude the routine wherein a selection rises face up to the top of the deck.There is no doubt the DL forms the backbone of most performers' routines.

"The Pop Up Card" from the "The Ambitious Card" chapter in "Expert Card Technique" is another way of showing the selection visibly rise to the top of the deck. It is mentioned in the introduction to that chapter that "The Ambitious Card" effect originated with the French magician Alberti.

Message: Posted by: Futureal (Apr 16, 2003 04:17AM)
I don't pass either :)
Message: Posted by: Ivan Hamaric (Apr 16, 2003 04:56AM)
I'm not the first one to say something along these lines, but still: Using a pass in an ambitious card routine is like using a hammer to kill a fly.

twiztedmusky, did you by any chance learn the Ambitious Card routine from one of the Ellusionist's videos? Just curious.
Message: Posted by: MacGyver (Apr 16, 2003 05:22AM)

Using a pass, can be good for an AC routine, used once or so...

My routine usually goes like this: Tilt w/2 cards, TL, have them cut the deck and put it back, then turn it over, a face up turnover pass (with patter that when it's face up, the deck needs to be face down or it would rise to the bottom...), and then finish with the all-mighty pop-up move.
Message: Posted by: HiraseMagic (Apr 16, 2003 06:23AM)
I learnt the AC from Daryl, therefore I seldom use pass. Daryl has many moves that is safer to use, I prefer to use them.

Message: Posted by: Euan (Apr 16, 2003 06:34AM)
Harvey Rosenthals bottom multiple lift (close up sampler) is a brilliant way to begin.

Colour changes always go down very well. Erdnase, shapeshifter, etc.

Impossible penetrations are good too, like placing the card under your foot and then showing it return to the top of the deck. The wonders of double sided sticky tape ;)

The riffle pass can be a good way to end using a face up card but I prefer not to do that as it could tip what you're doing the next time you use the riffle pass. Using a control as a colour change isn't always the best of ideas

Message: Posted by: Geoff Weber (Apr 16, 2003 08:49AM)
I use a turnover pass and a top card cover pass in my ambitious routine. I think you should use whatever sleight is best suited to the needs of the present effect. I wouldn't avoid the pass simply because it's considered difficult.

When I first do the pass, it is because I am bringing 4 cards to the top. A side steal would not be effective in this case. And with the top card cover pass, it is meant to bring the card face up second from the top. The top card cover pass is probably one of the best ways to secretly accomplish this. Sure I could do a double undercut, but that is much too open.
Message: Posted by: Logan (Apr 16, 2003 11:11AM)
I do the Hermann pass just to show it rises face up - I blur the movement of the pass by suddenly jolting my hands upwards, saying that since the card is face up, it is in a way 'against the current' of the other face down cards, and thus needs some push - goes down very well...the effect I mean :lol:

I like to end with the card in mouth - GREAT gag as well as surprise as that's when the routine ends and they're watching my hands like a hawk! All the misdirection is there already! :goof:

Of course...after that, they'll be saying, "Alright, everyone! Watch his mouth this time!" :hmm:

Message: Posted by: volant (Apr 16, 2003 11:32AM)
I use a bluff pass, a TL, a DL, and some other moves for my AC routine.
Message: Posted by: Paul (Apr 16, 2003 12:52PM)
On 2003-04-16 07:23, HiraseMagic wrote:
I learnt the AC from Daryl, therefore I seldom use pass. Daryl has many moves that is safer to use, I prefer to use them.


It may be safer to say Daryl "shows" or "teaches" many moves for use with the Ambitious Card, the moves originating from a variety of sources.

Apart from the chapter in ECT there is a nice version described in Bruce Elliot's "Classic Secrets of Magic", the latter part of that routine belonging to Dai Vernon.

Message: Posted by: chrisis1 (Apr 16, 2003 02:00PM)
Using a pass for an ambitious card routine is, in my opinion, something that kills the impact of the effect. When you do a pass you do something with the deck. Or, if you're very good in doing the pass, people still see that you give yourself the time to do something with the deck. But in a good ambitious card routine you show that you don't have any possible way to mess with the deck. That's why a pass doesn't work out in the ambitious card routine (although I do use a Herman pass to start with to bring the card third from top (like Darwin Ortiz in his routine in Scams and fantasies)).
Message: Posted by: redstreak (Apr 16, 2003 02:38PM)
I don't think that it is worth the trouble to bring it to the top using the pass when it is face down. But if you do a pass after the card is in face up, it's really visual, you can't get do it that well without that pass.
Message: Posted by: Ivan Hamaric (Apr 16, 2003 02:44PM)
Redstreak, don't be so sure. I have a sequence where the card is put face down in the deck (legitimately!), and it jumps to the top face up, using only one hand (it follows, reasonably, that it is possible to insert the card face up and have it jump to the top face up, as well). And I definitely don't do the pass, because there are more elegant sleights out there.
Message: Posted by: cardfreakhk (Apr 16, 2003 02:47PM)
I like doing passes, but the AC routine doesn't seem to be a good time.

Recently I learnt one very visual AC routine from a Japanese magician, he told me it's invented by a Japanese magician (not himself). It's cool!

I think even though DL is the basic move to create AC effect, the routine is the more important. Try to create a routine first! ^_^

And I love your idea Euan! But you may need to do a shoe switch to clean up? :bigsmile:

Michael Lam
Message: Posted by: levitate (Apr 16, 2003 03:58PM)
Dai Vernon's rising sun is a very convincing move I just started using. Tilts and Dls make up the foundation of my routine, but I do a few passes with the card face up (herman/turnover and shadow). I see nothing wrong with using a pass in ambitious, but there are certain cases when its not approprite. What is your (plural) opinon on using side steals and lateral palm shifts? I learned the side steal and got busted using it almost every time in the context of ambitious. Even when I mimed the actions of one, simply squaring the cards I was accused of palming a card to the top. Im just wondering if you all have experienced this problem.

Michael http://tazzydnc./tripod.com
Message: Posted by: twiztedmusky (Apr 16, 2003 05:40PM)
No i have Darlys Ambitious card DVD
Message: Posted by: Ivan Hamaric (Apr 17, 2003 06:18AM)
Levitate, I played with the side-steal within the Ambitious Card Routine, and it didn't work. HOWEVER, if you modify the sleight a bit, you can replace the card to the top without the need to cover the entire deck, you just take the deck in biddle grip and that's it. People who know about the Side-steal had no idea when could I possibly replace the card to the top, when I used my modified method. I'm not that eager to share the handling, yet. I will tell you, though, that the solution is right under your nose. You'll find it if you play with it long enough.
Message: Posted by: HiraseMagic (Apr 17, 2003 07:21AM)
On 2003-04-16 13:52, Paul wrote:
On 2003-04-16 07:23, HiraseMagic wrote:
I learnt the AC from Daryl, therefore I seldom use pass. Daryl has many moves that is safer to use, I prefer to use them.


It may be safer to say Daryl "shows" or "teaches" many moves for use with the Ambitious Card, the moves originating from a variety of sources.


Yup! You are absolutely correct, Paul.

Message: Posted by: sugam (Dec 6, 2004 10:58PM)
I was thinking about the side steal in an ambitious card routine and found this old thread. Maybe have the spectator shuffle it before replacing palm, but then again that may be too suspicious.

Anyone try using a side steal after pushing the card in? Or is misdirection very difficult here?

Nice job on the upgrade by the way!
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Dec 6, 2004 11:49PM)
The Javelin card my latest control, a card is placed into the center of the pack face up or face down .the the ambitious card instantly appears on top of the pack.
it is a flash production I use my squeeze palm technique, if any one is interested, pm me with your e mail addresds and I will send a demo.
Message: Posted by: danelwood (Mar 11, 2005 11:33AM)
I guess I have more of the jazz approach to mixing up the phases of my ambitious card routines.

Using a pass initially in the routine is not so bad. It is kind of fun when the spectator thinks something sneaky or quick may have happened toward the beginning of the routine. It pulls them in, and they start burning my hands--
that's where I want them as I move into more and more subtle methods of getting it to move invisibly to the top.

By the way I like both the pop up card and card to mouth (simon lovell) climaxes. I usually do them both at the end in the same routine. The card is already bent in the middle from the pop up, you let it sink in, nice long off beat, and I usually set up for the card to mouth while everyone is looking in my mouth to make sure its empty. People never see it coming. I figure I'm getting that much more out of an already trashed card.

Message: Posted by: GeorgeSantos (Mar 11, 2005 10:58PM)
I use only useful sleights that are needed at the spur of the moment. When I don't need to pass, I don't use it. When I don't need a DL or DT, I don't do it.

I also created an ACR of my own that doesn't require DL's, DT's or passes and I call it Ditchin' Doubles. I've been using it for quite a while and laymen have a good response to it.
Message: Posted by: aka (Mar 13, 2005 02:58PM)
I use the pass. I basically use it to prove to them that the card is in the middle of the deck. IE - place it face up in the middle of the pack, spread to that card, turn it back face down, "square up the cards", and carry on with my (developing) routine. =)
Message: Posted by: eliakim9 (Mar 14, 2005 06:59AM)
I never pass in my ambitious routine, I do use the t.o. pass but that oyher applications. The dl is my staple slight of my routine and a couple of vision controls. I try to keep it simple, I can do a ok pass, but I wouldnt trust it under fire in a routine, I'm just not good enough at it yet
Message: Posted by: magicgrld (Apr 26, 2005 04:32PM)
I do both the double lift and the pass. But it all depends on the spectator and how I plan to end the routine.
Message: Posted by: irishguy (Apr 26, 2005 05:10PM)
I use two different steals, Vinny's Top Gun, and one DL. No passes and only one DL.
Message: Posted by: Carlo (Apr 26, 2005 06:05PM)
I've never understood this hammer/fly analogy. I mean, I understand what it's getting at but I don't think it makes that much sense. First of all, if you could kill a fly with one blow of a hammer...that would be a good trick in itself, wouldn't it? But leaving that aside...to me using a pass to move one card, moving the whole deck in other words, that's more like using a flyswatter, which has more surface area than is strictly necessary since only a small part of the flyswatter actually kills the fly and the rest of it just goes along for the ride. Whereas only moving the one card you want to move, with a side steal for example, isn't that more like one swift accurate blow with a hammer, only covering the small part of the table that's right under the fly? Call me crazy.

Be that as it may, I think the pass is great for getting the card up to the top the first time. As others have said.

Hmm, hey guys I think I'm drunk, I better hang up.
Message: Posted by: SanCho14jfm (Apr 26, 2005 06:23PM)
I use both DL and the pass. When done correctly the pass is invisible so there is no need to avoid it because the spectator won't be in the least bit suspicious. Also if you use a pass you can clearly show the card in the middle of the deck, you can even have them touch the card before you push it in. I think that this adds a certain level of participation that the spectator would not of had the chance of expiriancing using only DL's. As an excuse for bringing my hands together...I am pushing their card into the deck, therefore your hands will already be together! I am not discounting the use of the DL at all, that is definitly a great technique used, and I would doubt any magician that claims they don't use that in their ACR, but I hope I am justifying the use of the pass in the routine.
Message: Posted by: chr!s (Nov 3, 2006 06:50AM)
I use DL and the pass.i also use a move I worked out by playing with the workings of a colour change move.
Message: Posted by: Neil (Nov 3, 2006 08:39AM)
I use, in this order: card thrown away/appear (manipulation style), Riffle pass, turnover pass, turnover/drop, slide/drop, double lift, rubadub change, rubadub vanish, card from pocket that doesn't exist, pack to pocket, pack vanish and finally tenko change.

This achieves the following:

Card is selected. Card thrown away but appears at tips of fingers. Card put in fan and pack squared. Pack riffled and card is on top. Card put in face up in middle. Pack riffled but doesn't appear on top. Pack turned over to see if on bottom but it isnít. Pack turned back over and card is found face up on top. Pack split. Card turned over and put in half of pack, travels down arm and appears on top of other half in other hand. Card turned over, shown to still be there, put in middle of pack. Card does not appear on top. Wrong card is rubbed on thigh/table and turns into chosen card. Chosen card is rubbed to turn back into other card but vanishes and is pulled from breast pocket. But no breast pocket exists. Card then pulled from trouser pocket and put into pack. Pack disappears leaving only chosen card. Card placed onto specs hand and is found to be the joker.

If there are any more needlessly complicated and smartalec sleights I could put in please tell me!
Message: Posted by: Magician Shaun (May 19, 2012 06:29PM)
Not to resurrect an ancient thread but I would like to mention that I didn't learn my AC routine from anywhere. I heard about this trick where the card keeps coming to the top, at the time I was a "Magician" at Magic Masters. I spent a large amount of time practicing various slights. Passes in many mutations, muscle passes with coins, back palms, etc... I basically just looked at the slights that I knew and started using the ones that could make a card appear at the top. I usually do it on the fly, I have a basic patter, and if the trick is working I keep it going until I vibe that it's time to end. I usually end with something visual, either a visual change of some kind or the pop up card. I always start with a pass as the first control and rarely use it again. If I am using a borrowed deck, I often use a turnover pass because I feel there is less chance for error. If your misdirection is good, you can let the audience member put the card into the deck themselves, pause with the two packets still separated, start into your patter, then casually place the packets together and perform the pass. If you do the turnover, I always say something like the card isn't on the bottom, because that is against it's nature, then do a DL to show it's not on the top either. Then ask the spectator to concentrate or some such and finally produce it at the top for the first time. If you do a "beginner's" DL where you must get a break first, this isn't too good. If you do a sort of push off, that looks natural this sequence makes it seem as if you have done nothing up to this point, and the magic is yet to happen. I think it makes the spectators feel that everything is "fair" so far...Just my $.02, I am sure there are debates on this that never end. I agree that if your pass isn't great it should certainly not be used. If your pass is good, it is a different method of achieving the effect and helps to diversify the methods...