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Topic: Best Bill in Lemon Effect
Message: Posted by: Oliver Ross (Oct 13, 2008 04:03AM)
Hi everybody,

I'm searching for the best version of the Bill in Lemon effect. I know there are a lot on the market and everbody praises to be his the best, but maybe the real workers can give me some insight concering this effect for a stage / parlor show. Here are my conditions :

1) Any audience member picks at random a lemon from a bag full of lemons before the trick starts and keeps it. The lemon can be examined.
2) Any audience member loans a signed bill to the magician.
3) The serial number of the borrowed bill is marked down by the audience member.
4) The bill is destroyed, vanished, lost ...
5) It's the audience member who got the lemon that cuts the lemon in half.
6) The audience member removes himself the bill from the lemon and checks the serial number of the bill.

Well, I know, it sounds like the perfect pipe dream bill in lemon effect, but there must be something on the magic market to as close as possible to this working.

Thank you very much in advance for your help.

Oliver.
Message: Posted by: pepka (Oct 13, 2008 04:50AM)
You should check out Carl Cloutier's handling of Bill in Kiwi. That pretty much fits all your criteria.
Message: Posted by: lucavolpe (Oct 13, 2008 05:37AM)
...THE LEMON GAME...By Doug Malloy..on http://www.malloymodernmagic.com
I will buy in the next months..is GREAT !!!
Message: Posted by: Oliver Ross (Oct 13, 2008 06:23AM)
Thanks for your reply Pepka. I'll take a look on Carl Cloutier's version.

Luca, in Malloy's Lemon Game it's the magician who opens the lemon and takes it out, not the audience member.
But thanks anyway.

Any other suggestions ?

Oliver.
Message: Posted by: simchamagic (Oct 13, 2008 08:19AM)
I don't understand something basic. You wrote:

1) Any audience member picks at random a lemon from a bag full of lemons before the trick starts ***and keeps it***. The lemon can be examined.
....
5) ***It's the audience member who got the lemon that cuts the lemon in half***.
6) The audience member removes himself the bill from the lemon and checks the serial number of the bill.

Maybe, reading your criterion again, I noticed you wrote that the serial is written down, not that the bill is signed.

By the way Oliver, could you share with us what's the reason standing behind your wanting to get this perfect solution and not just use any regular method?
Message: Posted by: craig filicetti (Oct 13, 2008 09:04AM)
BTIL

http://www.innovativedeceptions.com/

-Craig
Message: Posted by: Bobby Forbes (Oct 13, 2008 03:23PM)
[quote]
On 2008-10-13 10:04, craig filicetti wrote:
BTIL

http://www.innovativedeceptions.com/

-Craig
[/quote]

You beat me to it.
Message: Posted by: Benji Bruce (Oct 13, 2008 03:34PM)
Carl Cloutier's version is the best. The bill is signed and the kiwi (or lemon if you prefer) can be held throughout the entire time. AND it doesn't cost as much as all the other ones. BUT with the other versions, they give you a full out routine. With Carl's you have to make up your own (which is better to some degree).
Message: Posted by: Oliver Ross (Oct 13, 2008 05:48PM)
Thank you very much to all of you for your replies.

To answer the question of Simchamagic :
I'm just looking for the best version taking all weak points out that an audience may notice. I know, that the perfect trick doesn't exist, but I'm looking for something to get as close as possible.
Maybe I should have answered differently, like :

Which sold Bill in Lemon or in anything else do you know and where to purchase it ?

I only would like to compare them one with another to find the best version in my eyes.

For the moment I only know the following :

- Lemon Game by Doug Malloy
- The Final Answer by Scott Alexander
- Bill in Kiwi by Carl Cloutier
- Bet your Bucks by Cody Fisher
- The Fielding West version
...

Oliver.
Message: Posted by: Bobby Forbes (Oct 13, 2008 06:42PM)
BTIL

http://www.innovativedeceptions.com/id_btil.htm

AGAIN,you really might wanna check this out. Max is an awesome guy! He will answer any questions you may have about this version. He will even go as far as sending the method to your email so you can make a good "informed" decision. The guy is a genius.
Message: Posted by: Oliver Ross (Oct 13, 2008 07:02PM)
Thanks Bobby. I'll check this out.

Another thing I've always thought of was the moment when the lemon, orange or kiwi was cut. How do you work with all the juice coming out and messing up the stage floor ?

Oliver.
Message: Posted by: Bobby Forbes (Oct 13, 2008 07:37PM)
Martin sanderson, carl cloutier, and james prince all have great tips on how to prepare the fruit so it is "less messy". It's all in the prep my friend ;)
Message: Posted by: Max Krause (Oct 13, 2008 10:57PM)
Craig,

Thanks for mentioning BTIL. I hope you find a ton of ways to use this.

Bobby,

Thank you for your kind words. Always happy to help whenever I am able.


Oliver,

I noticed you are from Europe and I am not able to create BTIL for foreign currency although I have come up with a viable solution to that issue. It will fulfill all of your criteria and allow for even more possibilities than you can imagine.

Kind regards,
Max


http://www.innovativedeceptions.com
Message: Posted by: Mac_Stone (Oct 16, 2008 01:59AM)
Max, how does your BTIL compare to other 'serial number' routines like Mark Wilson's? Maybe I'm missing something but I have to know for $60 what I am really getting. PM me if the answer is 'sensitive'.
Message: Posted by: Max Krause (Oct 20, 2008 01:26AM)
HI Mac,

My BTIL is unlike anything else on the market. It will allow you to literally make the bill appear ANYWHERE. If you have multiple BTIL's you can give the spectator a choice as to where they want the bill to appear which makes it even more amazing!

Max
Message: Posted by: MagicMikeMartin (Oct 22, 2008 05:53PM)
Is it possible to have a random lemon chosen and never touch it?
Message: Posted by: Max Krause (Oct 23, 2008 03:43AM)
Yes, it is Mike. However, you would need multiple BTILS in order to facilitate this. If you have other questions please PM me.

Max

http://www.innovativedeceptions.com
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Oct 23, 2008 11:48AM)
Try to see Doc Eason's way. All the technical stuff doesn't matter... it's the way you sell it.
Message: Posted by: Michael Dustman (Oct 25, 2008 02:29PM)
The use of Scott Alexander's Final Answer gimmick would accomplish all of your criteria.

Currently in my stand-up act, I introduce a lemon about 10 minutes into the show during a card routine where I also produce a small bottle of tequila. The lemon is stapled inside a paper bag and sent with the spectator back into the audience. (You of course could definitely have any lemon selected from a bag or bowl full of lemons with no problem).

The final routine in my act is taking a borrowed bill having the spectator read the serial number and sign the bill. I vanish it with the use of the large propane torch (as seen in my avatar). 45 minutes after the lemon was first introduced and subsequently forgotten about, I have the bag brought up to the stage and the gentleman who loaned the bill is invited to open the bag and remove the lemon. He also cuts open the lemon, pulls it out, opens it and verifies it is his same bill and signature.

This gimmick finally allowed me to meet the last criteria I had been wanting to perfect for years which was to have the lemon in the audience during the entire show so that by the time we borrowed a bill later and destroyed it, the lemon was an afterthought.

Also, with the prep of the lemon, it eliminates some of the juice and the bill is less soggy when it comes out. Although personally, I don't believe this is ever a problem. Many people post on this board that handing back a soggy bill is ignorant, inappropriate, rude, etc. After doing a bill to lemon literally over a 1000 times behind a bar or in my stand-up act, I have had zero complaints. Many love to show the bill off to reinforce it was in the lemon. And on quite a few occasions, the person loaning me the $100 bill (usually the host, CEO or President) has handed me the $100 as a tip on top of my fee. Regardless, I always whisper off microphone as I am leading them off stage that if they just leave it flat for 2 minutes, it instantly dries out.

The Final Answer is well worth checking out.
Message: Posted by: Oliver Ross (Oct 26, 2008 06:12AM)
Thaks Michael for your insight. I was already thinking of purchasing this effect. The only thing that held me back is the price.
The other point was the cut lemon that you can't leave for examination by the audience, but maybe nobody in the audience cares to have a look at it...
Have you had any experience in this particular part of the "trick" ?
What about the juice dripping on the stage floor ?

Oliver.
Message: Posted by: Michael Dustman (Oct 27, 2008 07:01PM)
I have not really found that anyone really wants to look at it, but I have handed a duplicate lemon out for examination in some shows. Switch it out under cover of grabbing a napkin, but no real need.

When working with a local comedy club company, all the comedians had to greet the audience after the show and shake hands. I have received more comments about the lemon routine than anything else. I have seen others gather around the guy and want to examine the bill, smell the bill, feel the bill and those are the ones that don't leave it as a tip.

Not a lot of juice dripping....it is all in the prep of the lemon.

For what it is worth, you can use other fruits with this gimmick. Oranges, apples, bananas, etc. I do have to say that you can use an orange without juicing it before hand.....they don't drip any juice at all.
Message: Posted by: Oliver Ross (Oct 28, 2008 05:35AM)
Thanks for this detailed information Michael.

Oliver.
Message: Posted by: Hart Keene (Oct 28, 2008 02:12PM)
[quote]
On 2008-10-23 12:48, Pete Biro wrote:
Try to see Doc Eason's way. All the technical stuff doesn't matter... it's the way you sell it.
[/quote]
This version actually belongs to Steve Spill, popularized by Eason. If you can get your hands on the "10 Years of Steve Spill" DVD you can see Steve perform it. He does the routine and the dirty work better than anyone else.

BTW that DVD is hilarious, all performance but worth it ;)
Message: Posted by: magicstudent (Oct 29, 2008 07:10PM)
Vitamin C booklet, impromptu lemon can be randomly picked and kept by audience, but you cut the lemon yourself.

jeff
Message: Posted by: Christo (Oct 30, 2008 03:27PM)
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the routine in Mark Wilsons "Cyclopedia of Magic". Excellent routine.
Chris
Message: Posted by: lozax (Nov 24, 2008 12:18PM)
Carl Cloutier "Bill in Kiwi"
Dough Malloy "Lemon Game"
Scott Alexander "The Final Answer"
Cody Fisher "Bet your Bucks"
Fielding West
BTIL
Mark Wilsons "Cyclopedia of Magic"
John Carney
Michael Ammar "Easy to Master Money Miracles"
Bill Malone "On the Loose"
Manuel Muerte
Barrie Richardson "Theater of the Mind"
Rudy Hunter "Hunters Vitamin C"
Richard Sander "Close-Up Assassin"
Bill Malone "Counterfeit Money"
Doc Eason "Bill in the Lemon" (Steve Pill version)
Fielding West "Bill to Orange"
J. J. Sanvert "Card in the Lemon"
Ted Lesley "Bill in Lemon"
The last five in "The World's Greatest Magic - Bill In Lemon" DVD

All those version only by checking the two posts of the magic Café!!!! Means there must be some more versions. It's a brain twister to be able to choose one!!! Considering most of them claim or are claimed to be near the ultimate miracle. What is also disturbing is that they range from 9 dollars (Rudy Hunter) to 250 pounds (Scott Alexander)!!!

Here are some points / questions : (I am using Carl's Cloutier so it will be my point of comparison but I am not trying to revael too much so please tell me if I have gone too far)
- Cloutier's version uses a switch, need to be done wearing a jacket, needs some preparation
- Muerte's version seems to be done without a jacket (axelchen said almost naked)
- the add for Hunter's says : is impromptu, no gaff, no switch of bills, no preparation, no torn corner (only for 9 dollars!!!!)
- Alexander's version add said that it uses a gaff but also that it allows you to put the bill in the fruit in a second in front of the spectator.
- "The World's Greatest Magic - Bill In Lemon" teaches you 5 ways.

Even with the two posts in the Café I still am puzzled. Should I stick to Cloutier?? Should I learn Muerte's so I can perform without a jacket?? Should I learn Hunter's so I can perform with no preparation and impromptu?? Should I spend many money and get Alexander's, but it doesn't seem that much better than other's??

I hope your advices and comment will help on the subject although I fear I will hear off more and more versions each one having its advantages or being the best (I know what is the best for omeone is not for others). We should really do an Exel Table to be able to compare the pros and cons (with / without prep...) but I guess that would be revealing too much. (Sorry for posting something that long).
Message: Posted by: Oliver Ross (Nov 26, 2008 11:54AM)
Thanks for your list lozax.
I like aswell you idea to establish an excel table with the cons and pros. What would be the criterias to take into consideration ?

- with / without preparation
- with / without special gimmick
- need / no need of special clothing (e.g. jacket)
- with / without presentation pattern
- difficulty in presenting the effect (* = easy, ** = advanced, *** = expert)

What else do you think of ?

Thanks again.

Oliver.
Message: Posted by: lozax (Nov 26, 2008 05:55PM)
Once again the list is not quite mine, I just compiled the names in the two post concerning the subject (although I do have cloutier and Amar versions).
I think the excel table would be a nice idea indeed but I doubt we could make it without revealing too much. If we knew what others think of it, then maybe we could start one.
Also I think the WGM DVD is a good one cause the price is quite reasonnable and you get five ways of doing the trick.

I would add :
- price
- angles
- no switch / switch (then of the fruit or of the bill)
- spectator cutting the fruit / magician cutting the fruit
- spectator taking the bill / magician taking the bill
- fruit can be examine / fruit cannot be examine
Message: Posted by: lozax (Nov 26, 2008 06:33PM)
Maybe this should be discuted in the "Secret Sessions" because this concerns technique what do you think?? But then I cannot help cause I don't have access to these forums yet.
Message: Posted by: Oliver Ross (Nov 27, 2008 03:33AM)
You're right lozax,

But you could give me your input via a pm (private message) on the Café...

Oliver.
Message: Posted by: TrickyRicky (Nov 28, 2008 05:09AM)
There is one more not mentioned in Lozax list.
Sam Berland bill to lemon, recently came back on the market.
TrickyRicky
Message: Posted by: lozax (Nov 29, 2008 07:00AM)
Ok I'll send you an MP by the end of this weekend, but then could you send me by mail or MP the final Exel Table??
Message: Posted by: Oliver Ross (Nov 29, 2008 07:57AM)
I'll try to do my best lozax !

Oliver.
Message: Posted by: paulmaccabee (Nov 29, 2008 10:09PM)
Although it may not meet all of your criteria, for pure impact and entertainment value Lance Pierce's "World Famous Bowl Routine" booklet with its Bill in Lemon climax is a marvel -- what's more, Pierce's insights into human psychology and effective magical routining is exceptional.
Paul
Message: Posted by: lozax (Nov 30, 2008 05:05AM)
I knew there were more versions. I'll re-edit my list after a few more.
Message: Posted by: lozax (Nov 30, 2008 09:36AM)
There is other versions in : (damn this list is neverending!!)
- Professional Touch Volume 6 by Billy McComb,
- Bill to Cig from Osterlinds "Mind Mysteries" DVD set,
- Tim Ellis "Bill to..." method on Ellis In Wonderland
- Bob Fitch has in his Topit Workshop dvd set
- Sam Berland’s bill to lemon
- Ray Gismer's “Limey”. It is three signed bills to a lemon/lime that has been wrapped in plastic.
- Chance Wolf, Bill in Ice
- Berland's Bill in Lemon
- Mark Wilson

Considering our Exel Table we could do :
- signed / serial number / torned corner

I just read the text about bet your bucks by Cody Fisher,it seems to meet your requirement, you should read it :
http://www.hocus-pocus.com/magicshop/inc/product_detail.cfm?item=7858

Regarding the coastly methods, this threads are usefull :
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=226240&forum=109
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=200968&forum=109
Message: Posted by: lozax (Nov 30, 2008 10:14AM)
Update list in alphabetical order: (damn this list is neverending!!)

Alexander "The Final Answer"
Ammar "Easy to Master Money Miracles"
Berland "Bill to Lemon"
Bill In Lemon Knife gimmick from HP
BTIL
Carney (John)
Cloutier "Bill in Kiwi"
Eason "Bill in the Lemon" (Steve Pill version)
Ellis "Bill to..." from "Ellis In Wonderland"
Fisher "Bet your Bucks"
Fitch from "Topit Workshop" dvd set
Gismer “Limey”, it is three signed bills to a lemon wrapped in plastic
Haydn "Teleportation device"
Hunter "Vitamin C"
Lesley "Bill in Lemon"
Malloy "Lemon Game"
Malone "On the Loose"
Malone "Counterfeit Money"
Mc Comb "Professional Touch Volume 6"
Muerte (Manuel)
Osterlind "Bill to Cig" from "Mind Mysteries" DVD set
Pierce "World Famous Bowl Routine" booklet
Potassy "Bill in Potatoe"
Richardson "Theater of the Mind"
Sander "Close-Up Assassin"
Sanvert "Card in the Lemon"
West "Bill to Orange"
Wilson "Cyclopedia of Magic"
Wolf "Bill in Ice"

We could also add :
- works with any / specific currency (in the thread Final Answer vs Bet Your Bucks someone says that FA doesn't work with English currency but some say it does)

PS : sorry I'm a bit out of the lemon (kiwi, orange, potatoe, ice, cigar...)
Message: Posted by: lozax (Nov 30, 2008 10:49AM)
Considering Olivier's first question most seem to agree that the top three are :

- Alexander "The Final Answer"
- Fisher "Bet your Bucks"
- Malloy "Lemon Game"

In one of the thread I give the link to in my previous post you can check the pros and cons of each of these three.

Any info on the HP "Bill In Lemon Knife"?? Could it be in the top 3 (guess not but who knows??)???

PS : Sorry about the many posts in a row but the editing time is limited to 30 mins.
Message: Posted by: cheaptrick (Dec 1, 2008 07:40PM)
I'm a big fan of Yigal Mesika's Signed Bill In Lemon - I've been using this for 5 years.

PLAYS BIG - PACKS SMALL - Easy set-up (NO serial number shenanigans, they get their own signed bill back). You can do the setup in about a minute offstage. Only one lemon is used. (Hey, lemons cost a buck a pop these days).

Borrow ANY bill from a spectator. Ask her to sign the bill. Place the signed bill in an envelope and seal it.

Explain that you have a gift for the spectator. From your jacket pocket, pull out a closed drawstring bag and hand it to the spectator .

Light a match and set fire to the envelope. The envelope and bill burn to ashes.

Take the bag back from the spectator. Open the bag.

Inside is a lemon. Cut open the lemon. Inside is a rolled up bill . The spectator removes the bill from the lemon, unrolls it and discovers that it is her signed bill

It is the fastest and cleanest load of the signed bill into the lemon I've ever
seen.

And the lemon is inside a totally closed velvet drawstring bag! The bag can be fully examined. There are no bill switches - No special knives, etc.

You can do it with other fruits and with ANY CURRENCY.


:magicrabbit:
Message: Posted by: lozax (Dec 2, 2008 04:59AM)
Seems quite nice. One more to the list.
Message: Posted by: AaronishMagic (Jan 1, 2009 01:25PM)
Martin Sanderson is got a great one!
Message: Posted by: Mac_Stone (Jan 1, 2009 06:09PM)
I would check out Hunter's Vitamin-C, it's only ten bucks so you really don't have much to loose. If you don't like that then you should try the L&L WGM BIll in Lemon DVD, you get about five routines from Pro's like Doc Eason and Bill Malone. You should be able to find something you like there so I highly reccomend checking these out before any of those high price routines.
Message: Posted by: Donal Chayce (Jan 1, 2009 07:08PM)
As a point of information, Doc Eason performs Steve Spill's routine.
Message: Posted by: Scott Alexander (Jan 16, 2009 06:07PM)
Just a quick chime in here. When we see something that costs what seems to be too much, we should ask...are we simply buying a METHOD, or a finished piece of STAGECRAFT?

It's not real hard to stick a bill in a lemon. The hard part is making it a piece of entertainment that people would want to pay to watch. With packages like Doug's, Cody's and mine you not only get really interesting and effective methods, but whole performance pieces.
Message: Posted by: Mike McEathron (Jan 17, 2009 06:52PM)
When you buy - Alexander "The Final Answer"
- Fisher "Bet your Bucks"
- Malloy "Lemon Game"

Your buying a complete 10 min tested and re tested and fully worked and reworked routine.....I know I have all three of the above.

SO to say that FA , BYB or the lemon game are in the same league as many of the other options on the market is like comparing a Ferrari and a Chevy. With Fa you get a DVD that is almost 3 hrs long !!

Just a few thoughts

Cheers

Mike
Message: Posted by: Donal Chayce (Jan 17, 2009 09:07PM)
[quote]
On 2009-01-17 19:52, Mike McEathron wrote:
SO to say that FA , BYB or the lemon game are in the same league as many of the other options on the market is like comparing a Ferrari and a Chevy.
[/quote]

I think your metaphor is off. Many of the other routines listed are on par with Scott's, Cody's and Doug's routines. Some of the other routines are also Ferrari's, but they don't come fully assembled. :)
Message: Posted by: Mac_Stone (Jan 18, 2009 12:14AM)
My favorite part of magic is taking a method and infusing it with my personality and creativity to come up with my OWN routine. It may take a while but I find the challenge to be the most exciting part, especially when you are dealing with less than perfect methods; it forces you to combine several ideas until all the right pieces fall into place, often times you find the end result is far from what you started with.
For instance I too was a BIL geek, I love the idea of vanishing a bill and making it appear somewhere impossible and completely unexpected; but after many months of trial and error I know have the PERFECT impossible location routine with no lemon in sight. The expensive routines may be masterpieces, but they are not my creation; If I perform a masterpiece it should be MY masterpiece.
Message: Posted by: JordanB (Jan 20, 2009 12:02AM)
The first magic lecture that I ever went to was Barrie Richardson's. He completely fooled me with his Bill in Lemon. It would technically meet all of the criteria of the OP except for #1. The spectator is unaware of the lemon till the end of the trick and the lemon is cut. Great, great version. Well worth getting the book because there are lots of other great tricks within the pages.

Another version that I've heard no one mention is John Moerhing's that is in his "Texan Trixter" booklet. It plays very well. It is a very well written booklet and worth tracking down as well.
Message: Posted by: Brett Sirrell Magician (Jan 23, 2009 06:20PM)
The Bill in lemon is probably the most quoted trick to me by a lay person its very strong.
My main problems with the routine are;
I don't like to get messy hands during a show, and
I don't want pockets smelling of lemons (due to juice leaking out of pre prepped lemons).

For this reason I have never found a good version for me. I am also not a big fan of switching lemons.

I am very tempeted to buy the Final Solution, from the writeups it sounds like it deals with the above really well, as some else will cut the lemon and the lemon can be in a bag or out in the audience.

Does anyone else know enough about the FA to confirm these asumptions?

The only downside is I usually switch my notes and this involves folding not rolling. (any good ideas here??)
Message: Posted by: B Hackler (Jan 24, 2009 02:08PM)
I have the final answer rountine and I believe you will be satisfied with the product. if you do the rountine scott has on the dvd's their really is no mess during the rountine. my 2 cents
Message: Posted by: Miraclemakers (Jan 26, 2009 07:31AM)
I have bill in kiwi....
but I want to buy THE LEMON GAME By Doug Malloy,
that's looks great.......
Message: Posted by: ladirector (Jan 26, 2009 01:23PM)
I'm not sure if the real work on Steve Spill's is available anywhere. But Doc Eason's verson of it is serviceable.
Message: Posted by: deliveryboy (Jan 27, 2009 10:45AM)
I love the load in bet your bucks you do it in front of everyone and they never see it.
Message: Posted by: ladirector (Jan 27, 2009 12:39PM)
Watch Spill do it and you won't see a thing. I think it's obvious he has some work on this that's not on the Doc Eason video, which is not hard to believe since Doc has admitted publicly that he didn't even get Spill's permission to publish the routine.
Message: Posted by: Brett Sirrell Magician (Jan 28, 2009 01:43PM)
I have a Final Answer for sale £175 if anyone wants it. I will gladly post to the US as well. So you will get a real bargain at these exchange rates. Drop me a PM.
Both DVDs and gimmick. Never been used, just a small amount of practice and that's it. so I would say its as new.

Brett
Message: Posted by: Scott F. Guinn (Jan 31, 2009 05:16PM)
I have a version that I have used to close my stand-up act for 15 years. It's a PDF download, only $7.50, and available here:

http://www.scottfguinn.com/generalmagic.asp

(2nd item on page)
Message: Posted by: Mac_Stone (Feb 2, 2009 04:18PM)
[quote]
On 2009-01-31 18:16, Scott F. Guinn wrote:
I have a version that I have used to close my stand-up act for 15 years. It's a PDF download, only $7.50, and available here:

http://www.scottfguinn.com/generalmagic.asp

(2nd item on page)
[/quote]

Scott's routine I stop notch, its not a signed bill but with his routine it really doesn't matter and he'll even tell you why!
Message: Posted by: ladirector (Feb 2, 2009 05:14PM)
Where is a description of Scott's effect, I don't see it on the website.
Message: Posted by: Scott F. Guinn (Feb 3, 2009 01:07AM)
The description is that a bill is borrowed, destroyed, and reappears inside a lemon that was inside a box that was given to a spectator to hold before the show started. The spectator writes the serial number on a dry erase board that remains in view, he lights the bill on fire and reads the serial number off the burning bill, he cuts open the lemon, he removes the bill, he reads off the serial number and it matches the one he wrote on the dry erase board.
Message: Posted by: Fred Johnson (Feb 9, 2009 01:19PM)
For magicians the signed bill is a stronger effect than copying down a serial number, but what about laymen? Checking with a few friends I received a variety of opinions. I settled on the signature (Doc Eason method) and feel now that it was the right decision. Hundreds of performances later I am convinced that in the spectator's mind, the signature eliminates any possibility of a switch or duplicate bill, thereby increasing the overall mystery.
Message: Posted by: Scott F. Guinn (Feb 10, 2009 08:01PM)
Not sure I agree that the signature is necessarily inherently stronger than the serial number. I agree if it's the magician who reads off the serial number. However, have you ever noticed that spectators are hesitant to sign playing cards and bills? I sure have. It's just not something most people do normally. However, virtually everyone knows that a bill's serial number is like a fingerprint--no two are alike. Therefore, if the participant is convinced that it is [b]his[/b] bill that you are using, if [b]he[/b] reads off the serial number, which another audience member writes on a large white board in full view, if [b]he[/b] sets it ablaze, and [b]he[/b] reads the serial number again as it burns... Sorry, I just don't buy that a signature is stronger than that.
Message: Posted by: Fred Johnson (Feb 11, 2009 12:47PM)
We can agree to disagree.
Message: Posted by: Scott F. Guinn (Feb 11, 2009 03:18PM)
Of course. Do what works for you.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Smith (Feb 21, 2009 11:54AM)
While it is true a pre-loaded bill with a duplicate serial number requires zero skill, I think the the use of a person's name and handwriting dramatically increases the impact of the effect. Signatures carry a profound sense of personal identification and power. In our culture, an autograph is a tiny piece of the person who wrote it. Like the individual, it is thought to be unique and irreproducible - unless one happens to be a skilled forger. In fact, some people go so far as to buy, sell and collect signatures.
Message: Posted by: smith83 (Feb 22, 2009 05:09AM)
Have you tried bill in kiwi? THe softness of the kiwi aids greatly with the effectt
Message: Posted by: Scott F. Guinn (Feb 22, 2009 04:28PM)
[quote]
On 2009-02-21 12:54, Jonathan Smith wrote:
While it is true a pre-loaded bill with a duplicate serial number requires zero skill, I think the the use of a person's name and handwriting dramatically increases the impact of the effect. Signatures carry a profound sense of personal identification and power. In our culture, an autograph is a tiny piece of the person who wrote it. Like the individual, it is thought to be unique and irreproducible - unless one happens to be a skilled forger. In fact, some people go so far as to buy, sell and collect signatures.
[/quote]
All I can tell you is that I've done it both ways, performing professionally for over twenty years, and I still disagree that the signed bill gets any more impact than the serial number. I further disagree that the signed bill takes any more skill--you can load a signed bill in a TT and shove the TT in a hole in the lemon, or shove it in a billet knife. Very little skill required. Certainly no more skill than a switch, which is required for many serial # routines.

The skill with BIL lies in the presentation and your ability to [b]sell[/b] the [b]impossibility[/b] and the [b]belief[/b] that it is [b]his[/b] bill he is seeing destroyed and then pulled out of the lemon.

Whether you do serial number, million dollar mystery, signed bill, etc doesn't matter, because unless you sell it--unless they believe it is the [b]same[/b] bill that is [b]really[/b] being destroyed and that there wasn't already a hole in that lemon--you [b]don't[/b] have that impact and conviction.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Smith (Feb 23, 2009 01:06AM)
Whokebe I do Cloutier's Bill in Kiwi. Scott perhaps I shouldn't have made my "skill" comment, but it's clear you missed the point of my post regarding the value of a signature in terms of impact, credibility, and emotional subtext.

No point to discuss this with you further Scott, since your opinion counts more than mine. After all you've "performed professionally for twenty years." So has Kammar the magician, did you ever see him do the serial number lemon trick on David Letterman?

Why do think full-time pros like John Carney, Scott Alexander, Doc Eason, Billy McComb, Mike Caveney, Michael Weber, Steve Spill, Ricky Dunn, Harry Anderson, David Copperfield, Karrel Fox, Frank Garcia, Ricky Jay, Fred Kaps, Johnny Thompson, Tommy Wonder, Terry Seabrook, have always used signatures with their borrowed bill effects? Please don't bother to answer.

Like you said above, do what works for you.
Message: Posted by: Scott F. Guinn (Feb 23, 2009 02:25AM)
Never meant to imply that my opinion meant more than yours. I apologize if I came across that way--it was not my intent. I think you missed the point of [b]my[/b] post--it is the conviction of the performer and his ability to sell the effect that makes it a miracle.

I have no problem with your preference to sign a bill. None whatsoever. I simply have a problem with a blanket statement that one way is always inherently better than another. That's what I disagree with, and in no way feel it makes you less important than me. It's after all, just a magic trick!
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Smith (Feb 23, 2009 11:36AM)
Apology accepted.

Consider this. Two performances. One with signature, one with noted serial number. Both performed equally in terms of the conviction, ability to sell the effect, deceptive sleights, etc. Everything equal. You would have to agree the signature version will ALWAYS INHERENTLY be, at the very least, slightly better, more amazing/impressive to the most intelligent and discriminating members of any audience.

Here's why. In the signature version the borrowed bill is IN FACT the one in the fruit. In the copied down serial number version the borrowed bill is IN FACT NOT the one in the fruit.

End of story.
Message: Posted by: Scott F. Guinn (Feb 23, 2009 04:16PM)
I would agree except for one thing--in my version, the participant [b]actually burns[/b] the bill, reading the serial number off it as it burns, everyone in the audience able to verify the number written on the white board. The [b]he[/b] cuts open the lemon, and takes out the bill and reads the serial number and everyone in the audience is able to verify the number written on the white board.

You just can't do that with a signed bill, unless you use a stooge. Further, for a large group, everyone in the audience has to take his word for it that it is his signed bill--a stooge can be suspected. With the serial #, I go around to different parts of the audience and have someone read the number off the bill, so the possibility of a stooge is eliminated. So is the possibility of a switch, as everyone knows no two bills have the same number, and the borrowed bill has never left their sight. My hands are clearly seen to be otherwise empty at all rimes, and I handle the bill only to take it around to people to read the number.

It is the conviction that it is the same bill being destroyed that made me switch from signature to number, as there is not a signed method in existence that I know of, where the participant can actually burn the bill and then cut the lemon open himself.

So, while it is the end of the story for you, I have no problem continuing to prefer my version with the serial number to any version I've seen or researched with a sig.. Variety is the spice of life. If you feel the sig. is more convincing, that's definitely what you should do, and I can respect that and have no qualms about it. I simply ask reciprocation.
Message: Posted by: Donal Chayce (Feb 23, 2009 04:56PM)
Gentlemen, I hereby declare this match a draw.
:cheers:
Message: Posted by: DamastaMind (Feb 23, 2009 06:01PM)
I am with Great Scott, his Bill in lemon has served me VEEERy well!

by the way, thank you Great Scott for putting your thinking and routinig available for your fellow magic community!
Your wife was right all time: You are a Genius!

I feel happy for being able to express the way I feel about your books directly to you and in public!
Message: Posted by: Scott F. Guinn (Feb 23, 2009 07:57PM)
Look, I think that Jonathan has made some very valid points, and it is obvious that he has thought through his decision to use a signed bill. That is commendable and he should stick to his guns. it in no way bothers me or makes me dislike him.

My reason for the ongoing debate is simply to provide another side to the debate, and show my reasoning for choosing the serial number. That's [b]all[/b]. Not to say that I think my way is better or that my opinion matters more, or that anyone who disagrees with me must be wrong.

Hopefully, this debate has caused the readers of this forum to think about which method they should use and why. Hopefully, that will extend to all of us, not just in our magic routines, but in our values and beliefs in general. But as regards magic specifically, Dai Vernon put it well when he said, "Magicians stop thinking too soon!"

I like to debate, but I don't want to fight. In the grand scheme of things, how you get a bill in a lemon doesn't mean a thing.

Enjoy your journey.

And thank you, DamastaMind. That's very kind of you and much appreciated. I'm glad you find the material useful.
Message: Posted by: JamesinLA (Sep 24, 2009 10:38PM)
Does Malloy's method use a "force bag" for the lemon? If so, can I buy a force bag that could be used for lemons somewhere that anyone knows of? Thanks.

Jim
Message: Posted by: Oliver Ross (Sep 26, 2009 05:52PM)
You could build your own force bag, just with clear freezing bags.

Oliver.
Message: Posted by: Max Krause (Sep 28, 2009 01:26PM)
BTW.

I now have BTIL.5 which will allow you to do the Bill in Lemon effect without having to protect the bill. Just thought I would let you all know. Here is the link.

http://www.innovativedeceptions.com/id_btil2.htm

Also, perhaps Doug Malloy would sell you just the force bag. I am not sure but you could always ask.

Kind regards,
Max
Message: Posted by: doubletime (Nov 7, 2009 05:35PM)
There ar esom any different force bags on the market I wouldnt' really mind anyway.

bavli has a really great one. it's net I think.

james biss has one that you can buy or make it at home.
Message: Posted by: RiffRaff (Dec 7, 2009 06:09PM)
Three pages and not a single mention of Jarrow.
Message: Posted by: patrick1515 (Dec 7, 2009 06:28PM)
In my opinion, the bill has to be signed. It just plays much stronger.
The Steve Spill/Doc Eason version is great. Straight forward with some funny comic by-play. I switched to the Malloy Lemon Game because it has more structure in the routine and greater opportunity for comic by play. The routine actually makes sense, and has structure, with a beginning, middle and end. The props are well made, but a tad pricey for what you receive. The biggest plus to the Lemon Game is that all of the dirty work is done when there is absolutely no "heat" on the bill.
Message: Posted by: Didiman Eddy Fakri (Dec 10, 2009 02:43AM)
[quote]
On 2008-10-22 18:53, MagicMikeMartin wrote:
Is it possible to have a random lemon chosen and never touch it?
[/quote]
you can use "clear force bag"
Message: Posted by: mumford (Dec 12, 2009 07:55AM)
I agree with those in this thread that believe a signature is better than a serial number or torn corner for identification. There's just no doubt about it.
Message: Posted by: Scott F. Guinn (Dec 19, 2009 10:23PM)
[quote]
On 2009-12-12 08:55, mumford wrote:
I agree with those in this thread that believe a signature is better than a serial number or torn corner for identification. There's just no doubt about it.
[/quote]

For you...

One would have to see EVERY version of the effect every performed to make that statement definitively and be correct.

I challenge anyone to come to one of my shows and watch me do my version and tell me honestly that the audience reaction is in even the slightest bit weaker than the signature versions mentioned in this topic.

Magicians get caught up in magician thinking patterns. Think about a homicide scene. A weapon is found on the scene, having been left behind by the killer. The weapon has the killer's fingerprints on it, but his name is not engraved or signed on it. Is anyone any less convinced? The serial number of a bill is its "fingerprint". Everyone knows that no two bills have the same serial number. No signature is needed, unless the magician draws attention to the fact that a signature must be used to verify that its the same bill. A laymen understands that if the serial number is the same, then it has to be the same bill.

Now I agree that many serial number versions are weak. In some the performer reads off a different number than is on the bill, or he never lets anyone else see the bill, or he does a switch upon removing the bill, etc. But in ym routine, the borrowed bill never leaves the audience's sight. I never go to my pockets. Both hands are in view the whole time. A spectator reads the number off the bill. Another writes that number down on a white board for all to see. Other spec read the number off the bill while everyone else verifies it from the board. The lender sets it on fire, in full view, without envelopes, reading off the number AS IT BURNS. The lender cuts open the lemon--I never touch the lemon. The lender removes the bill from the lemon, unrolls it, and reads off the serial number--the same one on the white board. He keeps that same bill, as it is not gimmicked or altered in any way.

Nope, sorry--I don't buy that because another version has a signature, it MUST be stronger. Because with a signature, you can't actually burn the bill. You must touch the lemon at some point, or you have to cut into it. A signed bill cannot meet the conditions that my routine can meet: The fact that my hands are seen empty at all times, the spec, openly burns the bill, the spec cuts open the lemon, which was given out in a case before the show started, I never touch nor even come near the lemon, etc. So, for ME, I switched from doing a well-known (and fairly expensive) signed bill version to my own current routine. And it plays STRONGER, because it is cleaner and seems more impossible.
Message: Posted by: Mac_Stone (Dec 20, 2009 02:08AM)
Scott,

The signed bill is stronger than all most every other method out there. Yours is the one exception in my opinion. When magicians think of serial number methods they think of the lames ones that you mentioned but they have no idea what your routine is really all about. Its a shame more magicians aren't more familiar with your routine, ITS ONLY TEN DOLLARS FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!!

However for me the choice is a signed bill because its easier to verify with out having to carry extra props (large white board or what have you). Bu Scott is right, his routine is cleaner and more impossible, and in his hands is clearly stronger than any signed bill in lemon.
Message: Posted by: mumford (Dec 20, 2009 12:41PM)
I prefer the signature but I would never go to such great lengths - like others in this thread - to convince anyone to do so. Go with what you like, to each his own.
Message: Posted by: Scott F. Guinn (Dec 20, 2009 05:32PM)
OK, point taken--I'll shut up. Sorry if I've upset anyone.
Message: Posted by: mmreed (Dec 21, 2009 10:14PM)
You guys wanna see a KILLER bill to lemon?

Check out Kozmo's version. You can see it at his lectures, or on his Tales from the Street DVD.

Its so well layered into the ENTIRE routine.
Message: Posted by: Scott F. Guinn (Dec 21, 2009 11:31PM)
[quote]
On 2009-12-20 03:08, Mac_Stone wrote:
Scott,

The signed bill is stronger than all most every other method out there. Yours is the one exception in my opinion. When magicians think of serial number methods they think of the lames ones that you mentioned but they have no idea what your routine is really all about. Its a shame more magicians aren't more familiar with your routine, ITS ONLY TEN DOLLARS FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!!

However for me the choice is a signed bill because its easier to verify with out having to carry extra props (large white board or what have you). Bu Scott is right, his routine is cleaner and more impossible, and in his hands is clearly stronger than any signed bill in lemon.
[/quote]

Thanks Mac, I appreciate that, sir.

And mmread is right--Koz's routine rocks--I had the great pleasure of seeing it in person when he lectured in Boise a couple of weeks ago.
Message: Posted by: Mac_Stone (Dec 24, 2009 09:33PM)
I noticed when I saw Koz's routine that while the handling is different the load is IDENTICAL to Rudy Hunter's. I'm not pointing fingers or anything simply stating my observations, it could simply be a case of independent creation.
Message: Posted by: Bobby Forbes (Dec 25, 2009 07:08PM)
Scott Guinn's routine tops them all. Why would you wanna sign a bill anyways. People always hesitate signing and then it becomes awkward. You have to make them think it's ok. The way Scotts routine is structured, IMO it's the most convincing routine of it's type to date. I cant wait to try this out. Besides, the way it's structured, you don't have much technical work to do at all.. can't say that with a signed version. You must do some kind of crazy sleight of hand and most of the time you have to cut open the lemon yourself. That's not the case with this routine. The spectator has the lemon to start with and then at the end cuts it open himself and verifies the serial numbers. Come on, it doesn't get any stronger than that. Try that with a signed bill.
Message: Posted by: Scott F. Guinn (Dec 25, 2009 07:35PM)
Thanks Bobby! Much appreciated. I'm glad you like the routine. Let me know how it plays in your shows.
Message: Posted by: Mac_Stone (Dec 25, 2009 07:54PM)
Most of the torn corner and serial number gambits out there will fall flat compared to a signed bill, but most DOES NOT MEAN EVERY! The problem with the guys arguing in favor of the statement that the bill MUST be signed is that they are COMPLETELY ignorant of Scott Guinn's handling.

Mind you this is coming from a guy who prefers using a signed bill, albeit for reasons which have nothing to do with it's impact on the layman, but I still say Scott Guinn's routine is cleaner and more impossible than any routine out there and it still destroys a lay audience.

Anybody who wants to add a Bill in Lemon routine to their repertoire should do themselves and the art a favor by researching every routine already in print not just to find the best method but to create an original and baffling routine and In my opinion Scott's is one of the strongest handlings in this plot line you will ever find. For a lousy ten dollars even if you don't use his method there will be something in Scott's routine that you WILL learn from.

The bill is not lost in an envelope, it is cleanly and openly burned in a pan. A spectator can read the serial number off the bill as it is engulfed by flames, a lemon is introduced which the performer has NEVER touched it is cut open and a bill is removed which matches perfectly to the bill the spectator saw burn to a crisp right before his eyes, clean fair and absolutely impossible. There are very few torn corn or serial number routines out there worth doing, Scott's is the exception.
Message: Posted by: Scott F. Guinn (Dec 25, 2009 10:29PM)
Thanks again, Mac--very kind of you.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Dec 26, 2009 07:16AM)
Permit me to add a vote FOR Scott's routine and concept. While a signed bill may provide a bit more intrigue, it is really just overproving when compared to the ultra-clean routine possibilities Scott offers. He has solved a major issue with the routine, which leaves the specs at "Whit's End" - on the horns of a dilemma...

Jim
Message: Posted by: Scott F. Guinn (Dec 26, 2009 03:01PM)
Thanks Jim! That's exactly what my goal was with my routine.
Message: Posted by: Odilon (Apr 7, 2010 05:19PM)
Scott I bought your method and it's clever. Unfortunatly it seem to be a little difficult to do with euros.... I will probably have to change it....
Message: Posted by: dedikc (Apr 10, 2010 01:35PM)
IF you like the bill in lemon, Nourdine ( a french restaurant magician!) sell a good way to do it!! it's call CITRUS, this is a sign bill to lemon, where the laymen cut and take the bill from the lemon!!

The lemon could seat on the table during the show!! There is no change of the bill. It's very easy to do.
Message: Posted by: Oliver Ross (Apr 12, 2010 02:36AM)
Hi dedikc,

Where is this version available ? I can't find it anywhere.

Thanks.

Oliver.
Message: Posted by: dedikc (Apr 12, 2010 11:40AM)
You can find it here:
http://www.nourdine-le-magicien.com/La_Magie_de_Nourdine/Secrets.html

or mail Nourdine :
nourdine-le-magicien@wanadoo.fr

Voila!
Message: Posted by: RiffRaff (May 7, 2010 09:12PM)
[quote]
On 2009-02-23 02:06, Jonathan Smith wrote:
...
Why do think full-time pros like John Carney, Scott Alexander, Doc Eason, Billy McComb, Mike Caveney, Michael Weber, Steve Spill, Ricky Dunn, Harry Anderson, David Copperfield, Karrel Fox, Frank Garcia, Ricky Jay, Fred Kaps, Johnny Thompson, Tommy Wonder, Terry Seabrook, have always used signatures with their borrowed bill effects?
...
[/quote]

Although I prefer the signed bill to any of the other identification methods, I must mention that Harry Anderson and Billy McComb did not use signatures.
Message: Posted by: markmiller (May 7, 2010 09:36PM)
On a cruise I personally saw McComb do a signed bill to wallet. It was more or less the Seabrook bank night effect.
Message: Posted by: mmreed (May 7, 2010 09:51PM)
Track down Kozmo and watch his Bill in Lemon routine.

Its the best out there.

Street guys know what plays strong.
Message: Posted by: RiffRaff (May 8, 2010 09:37AM)
[quote]
On 2010-05-07 22:36, markmiller wrote:
On a cruise I personally saw McComb do a signed bill to wallet. It was more or less the Seabrook bank night effect.
[/quote]

Interesting. So McComb upgraded to a signed bill in lemon.
Just one clarification: You mean Seabrook's burned bill in wallet, right?
Message: Posted by: markmiller (May 8, 2010 11:48AM)
Right, he didn't do the lemon, years ago I was on a cruise with my folks and McComb, who was extremely friendly, was the magician. I didn't say he did the lemon, only that he used a signed bill for identification purposes. You are right, what I called a bank night effect was Seabrook's burned bill in wallet.
Message: Posted by: markmiller (May 8, 2010 11:49AM)
I should add, he did two complete shows and both were great as you'd expect.
Message: Posted by: Red Neck Magician (May 8, 2010 06:38PM)
Does anyone know which book or dvd will have the Seabrook bank night effect in it?
Message: Posted by: Doug Arden (May 8, 2010 07:12PM)
[quote]
On 2010-05-08 19:38, Red Neck Magician wrote:
Does anyone know which book or dvd will have the Seabrook bank night effect in it?
[/quote]

Red Neck:

This is in Terry's Seabrooke's,"Seabrooke's Book." He has it on an old VHS tape as well. It's not available on DVD that I am aware of.

Doug
Message: Posted by: Red Neck Magician (May 9, 2010 12:31PM)
Thanks for the help Doug.
Message: Posted by: brody (May 9, 2010 05:29PM)
It's on L&L's

World's Greatest Magic - Stand-Up Magic Volume 1
Message: Posted by: Red Neck Magician (May 9, 2010 07:24PM)
Brody thanks for the help I will give the dvd a look.
Message: Posted by: Bobby Forbes (May 15, 2010 05:08AM)
Another vote for Scott Guinn's version. Very simply and has huge impact.
Message: Posted by: Oliver Ross (Jul 12, 2010 06:19PM)
Yesterday I bought Scott F. Guinn's "The working Pro's Bill in Lemon" and just finished reading through it.

This is really genious !!!

It's really simple, will have a really huge impact and it's really worth the $ 10,-. To me, it's even not expensive enough; it's priceless !!!

I own already a few other version, but this one is really the best. The excellent part is, that he goes through the thought process explaining the reasons why he performs it this way and not in another...

I wont go into details, but if you really want something workable for the real world spend the 10 bucks.

Just my honest opinion.

Oliver.
Message: Posted by: Scott F. Guinn (Jul 14, 2010 12:33PM)
Oliver,

I'm glad you are happy with your purchase, and I very much appreciate your recommendation.
Message: Posted by: Oliver Ross (Jul 14, 2010 05:30PM)
Scott,

You're most welcome. The funny thing is that it was me who started this topic and it could end with me, since now I've found exactly what I was looking for.

All the work has still to be done, but the most interesting part is that if someone takes his time to look everywhere and to listen to good advices, that this someone (in this position : me) can finally find what he's looking for.

This effect is the first one that I bought from you but for sure not the last one.

Thank you again for sharing such a wonderful piece of magic with the community.

And good luck for all your futur magical projects.

Oliver.
Message: Posted by: dooblehorn (Jul 16, 2010 11:24AM)
I just bought Scott's Bill to Lemon yesterday , and it is a GREAT routine! I highly recommend it! I also got Scott's Matrix routine, and it's very, very good as well (I may just get rid of all my gimmick matrix stuff)...

I cannot say anything else that has not already been said in this thread, except Scott's effects are genius and his detailed instructions are superior.

I'm buying more! :thumbsup:
Thanks, Scott
Message: Posted by: gnosis (Jul 17, 2010 02:58PM)
Here is an interesting bill in lemon routine being performed by Drew Worsham:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bvf3RsnQGMY

In this performance:

- a borrowed bill is signed by one spectator
- another spectator reads the serial number from it
- then the bill is folded by the magician and made to disappear
- magician draws attention to two balloons that have been sitting out of his reach and in plain sight the whole time
- spectator chooses one of the balloons to pop
- a lemon falls from this balloon in to spectator's hands
- magician shows his hands to the audience and has three spectators examine his hands to make sure they are completely empty
- magician takes lemon from spectator and slowly cuts it open with a borrowed knife, in front of the audience
- magician gives lemon to spectator, who removes the bill and verifies the signature and serial number

This gets a tremendous reaction from the audience, of course.

I am very impressed by the technical aspects of this routine, as it seems there is no opportunity for the magician to load the bill in to the lemon, except when he cuts the lemon open. But that happens directly after the magician's hands are thoroughly examined, without his hands going to his pockets. His sleeves are also rolled up, and the cutting is done slowly, in full view of the spectators. The cutting and opening of the lemon look absolutely fair. So how could the loading have been achieved?

The only way I could imagine it's done is by having the spectator signing the bill be a stooge, and pre-loading duplicate signed bills in to both lemons before they're put in to the balloons. If no stooge was used, it's doubly impressive and apparently impossible.

I also enjoyed the clever bits of humor Mr. Worsham added, such as saying "you're the king!" as the spectator pulls the rolled-up bill from the lemon.

I found this video in a thread about Nourdine's BIL effect:

http://www.virtualmagie.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/257698/5

It's in French, but can be adequately translated in to English here:

http://translate.google.com

At first I assumed Mr. Worsham must be performing Nourdine's BIL routine, but now I am not so sure. Does anyone know who's method Mr. Worsham is using in this routine?
Message: Posted by: RiffRaff (Jul 18, 2010 12:58AM)
[quote]
On 2010-07-17 15:58, gnosis wrote:
...The only way I could imagine it's done is by having the spectator signing the bill be a stooge, ...
[/quote]

Mentioning the word 'stooge' in terms of method in a public forum is borderline exposure. I believe we should use a code word to replace the word 'stooge'.
How about we just call it the 'Chris Angel Method'?
Message: Posted by: gnosis (Jul 18, 2010 01:43AM)
[quote]
Mentioning the word 'stooge' in terms of method in a public forum is borderline exposure. I believe we should use a code word to replace the word 'stooge'.
How about we just call it the 'Chris Angel Method'?
[/quote]

Haha! I like it. :)

What do you think of using an abbreviation for the "Criss Angel Method" and just calling it a "criss"?
Message: Posted by: Brent McLeod (Oct 16, 2010 04:29AM)
[quote]
On 2008-10-23 12:48, Pete Biro wrote:
Try to see Doc Eason's way. All the technical stuff doesn't matter... it's the way you sell it.
[/quote]

I agree with Pete

After years of performing Professionally Bill in Kiwi, I saw Doc Easons version of B.I.L.
and have now incorporated that
into my act for corporate & theatre-You could do it on the street its that good..
No serial nos or corners etc-Its signed after the lemon is put to 1 side yet ends up in the lemon-brilliant..
but as Pete mentions -its the fun & entertainment that sells it..
Message: Posted by: Scott F. Guinn (Feb 23, 2011 06:17PM)
Just FYI...

I have sold the rights to my ebooks--including "The Working Pro's Bill in Lemon"--to Chris Washubber at Lybrary.com. I no longer have a website or sell the ebooks, but they are all available at Lybrary.
Message: Posted by: Mac_Stone (Mar 26, 2011 10:03PM)
Even though my own personal preference is to use a signed bill I still stand 100% behind what I said. Scott's routine is a WORKER! For ten bucks it's an excellent investment.

I have seen the Drew Worsham youtube video and I can only conclude he is using the Criss Angel method, if he isn't the churches he performs for should start worshiping him!
Message: Posted by: Ryan Bliss (Mar 31, 2011 11:22PM)
John Carney has an effect in his book Carneycopia entitled Fruit Cup. Its absolutely fantastic. AND, its not that hard to do

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDetbiBfRX4
Message: Posted by: mumford (Apr 1, 2011 01:22AM)
Not my favorite Bill in Lemon but one of my very favorite magicians. I love watching Carney no matter what he does. And Carneycopia is filled with brilliant stuff. I love his Bullet Catch!
Message: Posted by: Lundonia (May 17, 2011 01:59PM)
Have anybody tried Guinn's effect with UK currency? Or any other currency than American for that matter? :)
Message: Posted by: Oliver Ross (May 17, 2011 05:24PM)
Ludonia,

Scott F. Guinn's Bill in Lemon effect can be done with any currency in the world.

Oliver.
Message: Posted by: Ryan Bliss (May 28, 2011 11:03AM)
Will Houstoun also but out a book (either THE NOTEBOOK or HELLIS IN WONDERLAND) where there is a bill in lemon that requires no switch, and no pre-work. Oh and it's from the 1700's
Message: Posted by: KungFuMagic (Jul 14, 2011 12:55AM)
In the argument about signed vs. serial . . . the ultimate goal is about "shutting the doors of possibility" (as I heard described by The Great Tomsoni) so that it creates/enhances the sense of mystery. The front end of the trick is about dispelling, or shutting the door, on simply switching out the bills. It strikes me that there was not as heated debate about vanishing vs. burning the bill. These are additional methods of door closing. Some performers can really sell the serial number and the burning as the one truth of determining the identity of the bill. Some prefer the signature and vanish, or whatever.

My limited philosophy, though I have been practicing less than a year, and had only three public performances:

Ultimately, the key element in it all is the audiences belief. Nothing else matters. If the audience believes, then they will be amazed; and that is an element of performance and showmanship. One can close TOO MANY doors of possibility and leave to the audience the only real explanation of the effect . . . what really happened/was done. There is a brinksmanship, a balance, of selling the effect, and ramming it down the audience throat. The performance and execution by the magician and the relationship he/she has built with the audience that will make the true difference. If you have a strong and tight effect and execution, then your sell, your belief and convincing the audience is the deal breaker.
Message: Posted by: Jboeskin (Jul 15, 2011 11:14AM)
I agree with what you have said KungFuMagic! However for those of you still stuck on whether to go with one that is serial vs signature, I THOUGHT using a signature would be stronger. However, I recently purchased Scott Guinn's bill in lemon and I am now convinced that I like the serial number method MUCH better because of his genius idea. The person can actually begin to burn the bill while reading off the serial number and then find it in the bill and the spectator can open the bill himself. I was absolutely amazed and this trick and is a BARGAIN for the money it cost! Very pleased with it!
Message: Posted by: KungFuMagic (Jul 15, 2011 11:30PM)
IS there a demo video online somewhere we can see his performance of it?
Message: Posted by: Jboeskin (Jul 18, 2011 04:17AM)
KungFuMagic, if you were referring to me I cannot find any performance of it online or anything. Scott Guinn is a member here so hopefully he will see this and chime in with a video source or something. I was looking for one too before I decided to get it but I figured its just 10 bucks. I'm glad I did. But everyone seems to like different ones and finds one that suits them. In fact I remember seeing a free tutorial on here by steve brooks of a way to perform it as described but the method of using the serial number is different, but its free! If I find the link I can let you know...
Message: Posted by: Mac_Stone (Jul 20, 2011 11:21PM)
The serial number versus signature debate is a rather mute one, they can both be equally as strong. Scott Guinn proves this and if you doubt me then just dish out the ten bucks it costs at Lybrary.com and prove me otherwise. With that in mind my personal preference is to use a signature just for the timing and flow of the routine, it is much quicker to verify a signature than a serial number. Although one could argue that it would be much more dramatic to verify the serial number one digit at a time, each method has it own appeal.
Message: Posted by: SKILL (Aug 14, 2011 01:17PM)
I think you guys missing the best bill in lemon "any lemon" yes you hear me right ANY LEMON idea by Juan Pablo from argentina
Message: Posted by: Steven Keyl (Aug 23, 2011 07:57AM)
With regard to serial number vs. signature, I believe that in general a serial number plays better to a larger audience. In a more intimate performance, you can't really beat a signature. Why do I say this?

Well, because for a large audience, the more people involved the better. One person to volunteer a bill, another person to take the bill and read off the serial number, another person to write it down on a large board on stage. It's also a lot more dramatic for yet another person to cut it out of the lemon and read the serial number [b]which the entire audience gets to verify[/b] as opposed to a signature where only one person gets to verify it by saying "Yeah, that's my bill." Allowing the entire audience to verify the outcome is definitely preferrable, at least to me.

Barrie Richardson has a signed bill in lemon that uses both serial number and signature. It doesn't suffer the pitfalls of a lot of other routines and it is very strong. I love the Guinn routine as well. If you simply MUST have a signed bill I'd recommend the Richardson routine because you can add and remove the serial number reveal without disrupting the flow of the routine.
Message: Posted by: Oliver Ross (Aug 23, 2011 06:56PM)
Steven,

That's a great thought ! Never saw it from this angle...

Thanks.

Oliver.
Message: Posted by: DudleyMagic (Sep 2, 2011 03:30AM)
My favorite is by Barrie Richardson, and can be found in his "Theater Of The Mind"
Message: Posted by: John Long (Jul 16, 2013 07:20PM)
After seeing the video below, I decided to add a similar to my show.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-DEbvgPnoU

curiously, this video appears (to the spectators) very similar to Guinn's routine (and the two have many similarities). But I would say that Guinn's routine is less (magi) hands on, would look cleaner.) There is no signature, just a SN, and the judges and audience were floored.

I will say that I like the use of a bag of chips instead of the lemon, seems less incoherent. Maybe a big Cracker Jack box would be a nice touch :)

John
Message: Posted by: doug brewer (Jul 23, 2013 10:47PM)
I think writing down the serial number slows the flow of a show. It either has to be written down or the last 4 digits memorized (with a tipsy audience, not a sure thing). The signature, they know - no doubt, no hedging - they know that is the same bill. And they don't have to remember anything. The torn corner is a bit weird but it seems to work - I like it better than a serial number. I have done bill to lemon (or lime, or kiwi, or walnut, etc) for many years and still think the signature is the way to go. I also think the vanish is critical to the "sell" of the routine. Tom Stone's essay on Tommy Wonder's watch vanish is appropos to a bill vanish. It's got to be strong or the whole thing, even the appearance of the bill in the fruit, is weakened.

While having a spectator cut the fruit open seems very fair, I also see liability issues with it. It may never happen, but the day it does, you'll regret having that angle in your show. As far as using fire to destroy the bill, those days are almost over, as most places I work do not allow fire effects.
Message: Posted by: jcrabtree2007 (Jul 29, 2013 11:57PM)
I love Whit Haydn's Teleportation Device routine. just tear the bill for a reciept (the serial numbers). Then do a bill to egg with the same bill after signing it. That routine is so funny- none of the stuff with signing or taking of the serial number slows it down.
Message: Posted by: Magician Shaun (Dec 6, 2013 10:33AM)
I just read this whole thread. I have a problem with Scott's routine. The problem is that it is too perfect.

When Scott's routine is finished the spectator who tries to reconstruct it in his/her mind will come to two possibilities in the end.

1.) The magician has real, laws of physics and logic defying, magical powers.

Or

2.) The magician somehow used a duplicate bill.

It's always been said that if a spectator can come to a conclusion to how the effect was done, wrong or right, the magic is destroyed. In this case the solution is correct and the only possible one a person could come to.

While the routine is well thought out and likely gets great reactions at the performance, the magic isn't lasting. When they ponder it later they will surmise the only possible solution and the magic will be gone.

Like Sherlock Holmes said: "Eliminate the impossible and whatever is left, no matter how improbable, is the answer."
Message: Posted by: brody (Dec 8, 2013 07:52PM)
Magician Shaun:

I understand where you're coming from, but remember: "there are NO TWO BILLS in the world with the same serial number".

That blocks your point #2, leaving just point #1.

And mind you, I don't particularly care for Scott's routine. I don't like the serial number being the "proof". Personal taste.
Message: Posted by: Magician Shaun (Dec 8, 2013 08:41PM)
Everyone in the entire world is familiar with counterfeit money. When I say duplicate I am not refering to an actual real bill with the same serial numbers but a good copy.

I have described this to a few friends who are laymen and they all said: "The burning bill must be a copy." There is no other logical explanation. So #1 is farthest from the actual laymen's conclusion if they actually think about it.

Now, a large majority, I would say about 90%, of spectators don't care. They see some good magic and they don't worry about how it is done. They know it is a trick of some sort, they were entertained, so it was good.

I am sure Scott's effect is good, it's just too good in my opinion. Plus the signature, even if it others suspect a stooge, the actual person signing the bill will never, ever, forget it.
Message: Posted by: Jay Elf (Dec 10, 2013 06:06PM)
"Serial number vs. Signature vs. Torn corner"

Ask laymen which is most convincing. Magic is not the method, but how spectators percieve it. Just my two cents worth, if it really worth it.

Sincerely,
@jay@
Message: Posted by: brody (Dec 11, 2013 06:09AM)
Magic Shaun:

So the spectators believe that we have a duplicate of THEIR bill?

With logic like that,wouldn't they think we just have a copy of their signature also?
Message: Posted by: Whit Haydn (Dec 11, 2013 10:37AM)
http://youtu.be/GTikFSOBIA8
Message: Posted by: Snidini (Dec 15, 2013 01:54AM)
As always Pop, great routine and enjoyable to watch.
Message: Posted by: Daniel Clemente (Feb 16, 2014 05:30PM)
Pop...that routine is AWESOME! Thank you for sharing!
Message: Posted by: Tim Ellis (Sep 18, 2016 06:28PM)
Try this one. Bill is signed, serial number noted AND a piece is cut off and kept.

I've been doing this routine for over 30 years and it doesn't just fool the spectators... ;)

http://www.timellismagic.com/bill-to-anything/
Message: Posted by: javlin5 (Sep 27, 2016 01:27PM)
I like the idea of signed. It personalized the trick and lends itself to gags and jokes with the audience.

I think the serial #'s, trivializes the trick, into a "checking #s" just to make sure the magician did the job right. Not as effective in my opinion.
Message: Posted by: DorianGrey (Dec 4, 2016 11:33AM)
[quote]On Mar 31, 2011, Ryan Bliss wrote:
John Carney has an effect in his book Carneycopia entitled Fruit Cup. Its absolutely fantastic. AND, its not that hard to do

Hello I recently purchased Carneycopia which is an amazing book however I live in the UK so the lowest denomination I could use is a 5 pound note Does it ruin the notes and if so what do you suggest I use instead?
thanks
Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (Dec 5, 2016 03:16AM)
[quote]On Dec 4, 2016, DorianGrey wrote:
[quote]On Mar 31, 2011, Ryan Bliss wrote:
John Carney has an effect in his book Carneycopia entitled Fruit Cup. Its absolutely fantastic. AND, its not that hard to do

Hello I recently purchased Carneycopia which is an amazing book however I live in the UK so the lowest denomination I could use is a 5 pound note Does it ruin the notes and if so what do you suggest I use instead?
thanks [/quote]

It all depends on you countries currency laws. Here in the US, writing on a bill does not mean it is worthless. Even tearing a bill, as long as the bill is over 75% intact, the bank will give you a full size bill.

If your currency is the newer plastic money, that seems to be another whole set of problems to work out.

You will have to check with your banking system, ours is called "The Federal Reserve", no idea what your ruling agency would be in the U.K.
Message: Posted by: That1MagicGuy (Dec 6, 2016 01:31AM)
I learn my bill in lemon from Inception by Chris Randall. Super easy to do and fools people well.
Message: Posted by: Pop Haydn (Jul 31, 2017 06:25PM)
[youtube]81mx0WBqxi0[/youtube]
Message: Posted by: MrKen (Nov 22, 2019 09:34AM)
[quote]On Dec 25, 2009, Bobby Forbes wrote:
Scott Guinn's routine tops them all. Why would you wanna sign a bill anyways. People always hesitate signing and then it becomes awkward. You have to make them think it's ok. The way Scotts routine is structured, IMO it's the most convincing routine of it's type to date. I cant wait to try this out. Besides, the way it's structured, you don't have much technical work to do at all.. can't say that with a signed version. You must do some kind of crazy sleight of hand and most of the time you have to cut open the lemon yourself. That's not the case with this routine. The spectator has the lemon to start with and then at the end cuts it open himself and verifies the serial numbers. Come on, it doesn't get any stronger than that. Try that with a signed bill. [/quote]

People having an issue with signing a bill may have a bigger issue burning one :)