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Topic: C&b is a basic routine ok if it leads onto something better
Message: Posted by: Barry Donovan (Nov 9, 2008 02:09PM)
What I'm trying to say is, can a basic cups and balls routine work, if all I'm trying to acheive is the lemon reveals for my grandstand bill in lemon finish, still say a 3 phase routine but nothing groundbraking?
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Nov 9, 2008 07:46PM)
Why not? If you only need ONE Lemon, do a one cup routine? Or the Johnny Paul routine. You can stack all three cups at the finish, lift all at once and find the lemon.
Message: Posted by: dcjames (Nov 9, 2008 08:07PM)
Why not do a Benson Bowl routine if the magical production of a single lemon is the goal?
Message: Posted by: ilmungo (Nov 9, 2008 08:16PM)
Have you looked into John Carney's "Fruit cup" routine? It's a one-cup version of the cups and balls done with a borrowed bill and a mug, which ends with the surprise production of a lemon, with the bill inside the lemon. Might not be exactly what you need, but still give you some ideas... You can find it in Carneycopia.

In fact, here's a clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDetbiBfRX4
Message: Posted by: dcjames (Nov 9, 2008 08:39PM)
Lovely cohesive routine. Thanks for linking that video.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Nov 9, 2008 09:29PM)
The main thing is that the cups and balls segment must not get in the way of the bill in lemon segment. If one confuses the other, then they should remain separate. If there is some kind of unity, then they can work together.

Lance Pierce does a Benson Bowl routine with a lemon as the kicker. The lemon has a borrowed bill inside it.

It all depends on "The Sell."
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Nov 9, 2008 09:41PM)
Crney's routine is as good as it gets.... so clean, so strong.
Message: Posted by: Lance Pierce (Nov 9, 2008 11:31PM)
[quote]
On 2008-11-09 15:09, Purist wrote:
What I'm trying to say is, can a basic cups and balls routine work, if all I'm trying to acheive is the lemon reveals for my grandstand bill in lemon finish, still say a 3 phase routine but nothing groundbraking?
[/quote]

The cups and balls part of the routine can work, but generally not if the only reason you're doing it is to get past it and on to something else. Many performers fall into the same trap of doing a routine with large loads at the end...they rush through the first part just to get to the second. As a result, both are weakened. The entire journey has to be worthwhile. Otherwise, why bother?

You can do a good cups and balls sequence to lead into your bill in lemon...just make sure it's a good sequence. It should be very magical and build and by building, it should feed right into the bill in lemon effect. Otherwise, just skip it and do the bill in lemon.

:)
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Nov 9, 2008 11:57PM)
Right, Lance. I think you kill with cups and balls, and as an "afterthought" finish off the bill in lemon.
Message: Posted by: Barry Donovan (Nov 10, 2008 02:01AM)
I'm getting better with cups and balls, practise the sleights that I can do well and use well, however not got a routine as yet, but I'm doing a 1 man show in 5 weeks, if I practise a routine I'm sure I could be ready to go, reason I want 3 lemons, is once they are all revealed, immediatly I'm going to cut 1 and put a wedge in my water, throw it away, then I can say to anyone 1 or 2 pointing, the bin will be nearby, if they pick the money 1 good, if not in the bin. the bill in lemon is a trick over a long period of time I'm 3 phases but nobody will know that its linked until the final minute
Message: Posted by: Lance Pierce (Nov 10, 2008 01:55PM)
Hmm. There are various ways to go about it:

1) Produce three lemons, narrow it down to one and then show the bill inside (what you're thinking)

2) Produce three different pieces of fruit with the lemon as your fourth load "kicker," in which you find the bill

3) Produce only one lemon and cut it to reveal the bill inside (in which case, it makes more sense to stack the cups as suggested above or do a one-cup routine)

I think if you had time (which you probably don't) to repeatedly try all three ways for live audiences, I'm fairly certain you'd find that the third option would get the best response. I fear your idea would water down the revelation of the bill in the lemon rather than making it stronger because you would completely stop the rhythmic build of the routine, creating a "dead spot" between the cup routine and the bill in lemon finale. If you can fill that dead area with some kind of theatrical tension, great, but producing only the one lemon would give that to you without you're having to create it out of thin air.

Cheers,



L-
Message: Posted by: Barry Donovan (Nov 10, 2008 05:16PM)
I'm going for the once they choose a lemon they hold onto it while I do my final card effect, then we finish the bill in lemon after and that closes the show
Message: Posted by: Lance Pierce (Nov 10, 2008 07:49PM)
Purist,

When is the bill borrowed? Before you start the cups and balls routine or just prior to the Bill in Lemon effect?


L-
Message: Posted by: Barry Donovan (Nov 11, 2008 01:37AM)
Before I start c&b, I don't want them to realise they are all linked until the last seconds
Message: Posted by: Lance Pierce (Nov 11, 2008 09:41PM)
Hmmm, even if the climax of a sequence is far removed from its beginning, there should be a defined and connecting line between the two. I fear you're losing some definition here.

I suggest that if you're having the bill borrowed up front, do a cups and balls routine, produce three lemons, have one discarded and the spectator choose from the remaining two, have him hold the one he picked and then you do a card trick...It seems like too much of a disconnect from the time the bill was borrowed to the end. If you're going to go through this entire sequence, you may be better off by having the bill borrowed just before the card trick or just after. Even better, I think, is to do away with the card trick altogether, produce just the ONE lemon from the cup(s) and show the bill in the lemon right afterwards.

Just a thought.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Nov 11, 2008 10:29PM)
If there isn't any evidence of the link, then it becomes a disjointed series of tricks up until the last moment.

If you want to understand how this works, and how the linkages must be there, and be evident, listen to several Sibelius tone poems.

That's the way he wrote music.

Now, to judge the success of these, hum one of them.

"Finlandia" doesn't count, because it isn't a tone poem.

The only way to find out if your approach will work is to perform it. You can theorize all you want on paper or on a computer screen, but in the final analysis, it's the performance that counts. If you can sustain the tension from the disappearance (or destruction) of the bill to the production of the lemon, without any apparent connection, then go for it.

Just because I anticipate certain problems with it, doesn't mean that they will actually occur. Try it oout. If it works -- good for you! If it doesn't, change it.

You learn by experimenting.
Message: Posted by: Lawrence O (Nov 14, 2008 02:56AM)
Basically the link is established by the ball being what is found in the lemon later.
It could be a signed crumpled bill: efficient in terms of magic but the wet bill at the end is not always convenient.
What about you bringing alternative ideas to this community

Furthermore, even though I love the effect, I don't think that the lemon trick is any "better" than the C&Bs
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Nov 14, 2008 11:02AM)
My initial thoughts on this are that my personal taste is to keep causes and effects close together. I don't mean technical causes, but the causes the audience sees. Since much of my work has been outdoors for audiences in various states of either intoxication or movement, it works better for me, under those conditions, to vanish the bill and have it appear in a lemon that a spectator has been holding before the vanish of the bill.

However, if you are indoors, and the audience is fairly stable, then that factor is not quite as important. However, if you do a routine in which you borrow a bill, vanish it, and then go into something else, you need to have a reference to the bill occasionally, in the patter or in the work, until you produce the bill from the lemon or other fruit. Otherwise, I think there will be more "side comedy" and discomfort about the missing bill than you may want to have. You can play off of this, though.

Still, if the reproduction of the bill from the fruit takes place, say, 15 minutes from the vanish/destruction, you may lose the "linkage."

Personally, I have always preferred a bill in fruit routine in which the fruit is in the audience's possession before the bill has been vanished or destroyed, because the audience may believe that you had enough time to sneak the bill into the fruit during the performance.

I agree that the bill in lemon is not necessarily better than the cups and balls.
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Nov 14, 2008 11:44AM)
Some thoughts. If I were to do the bill in lemon. I would do the cups and balls... produce final loads, like 3 lemons... Leave them on the table off to the side or put all away? Do something else, cards, coins? Whatever. Borrow a bill and burn or shred it? Then bring out "the lemon" -- do reveal.

Another possibility. Final loads of Lemon, Lime Potato. Take lemon and wrap, and SELL IT to someone for $1.00 (or another denomination) You could auction it off?

Then take the purchase money, vanish and find in lemon.

As A. Bongers (AKA FRED KAPS) used to say... "Magicians stop thinking too soon."
Message: Posted by: Lance Pierce (Nov 14, 2008 11:44AM)
I believe that, all considerations being equal, the bill in lemon is a stronger effect than the cups and balls. Of course, we know that it's rare when all the considerations are equal.
Message: Posted by: Lawrence O (Nov 18, 2008 01:27PM)
[quote]
On 2008-11-14 12:44, Lance Pierce wrote:
I believe that, all considerations being equal, the bill in lemon is a stronger effect than the cups and balls. Of course, we know that it's rare when all the considerations are equal.
[/quote]

As you believe that, it has to reflect in your performance of each of both of these effects, and it's possibly a self fulfilling prophecy. Naturally the same holds true for me the other way around.
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Nov 18, 2008 01:41PM)
Re-Reading my own post... I really like this and will work it up.

Another possibility. Final loads of Lemon, Lime Potato. Take lemon and wrap, and SELL IT to someone for $1.00 (or another denomination) You could auction it off?

Then take the purchase money, vanish and find in lemon.
Message: Posted by: ShawnB (Nov 18, 2008 01:46PM)
This is a great little clip... I love his use of the servante... it is unreal great misdirection.

I though it would be pertinent.

Very unique ideas here. Dante' rocks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hR3XHPKQ57Y&feature=related

Shawn
Message: Posted by: Keith Mitchell (Nov 18, 2008 04:57PM)
Sorry, I did not like that vid at all. The first half was film from the right and I could not see a thing, it was too dark. Again I am deaf cannot hear a word they are saying. The 2nd half was filmed from the other side with plenty of light, but it was mostly patter.

The one thing that made me laugh is when he switch his wallet from one pocket to the other, thinking that little kid was going to steal it from him.

That whole performance just puts me to sleep.
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Nov 18, 2008 05:41PM)
His pal needs to hold the camera still or get a tripod... Dante gets the laughs and looks like a good hat was starting.