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Topic: New Floating Table
Message: Posted by: KC Cameron (Dec 9, 2008 08:15PM)
1)3x 30" legs - optional 3 x 6" legs!
2) Much Stronger
3) Can work as a side table too -will hold 20 lbs.
4) floats ala zombie, magnetic and a new method.
5) $275
Coming Soon!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVk_5wX6dyQ
Message: Posted by: Mumblemore (Dec 9, 2008 10:46PM)
Looks great. I look forward to that . . .
Message: Posted by: TheTableTopTrixta (Dec 10, 2008 11:00AM)
Seriously?
Message: Posted by: Corey K (Dec 10, 2008 11:28AM)
Looks more like a barstool than a table to me... doesn't look all that balanced either.

I think I'll wait until I can afford a Losander table.
Message: Posted by: The Great Smartini (Dec 10, 2008 01:43PM)
The table on the You Tube link did look more like a bar stool (perhaps an early prototype?) but if you check out the website you will find quite an assortment of tables in different colours/styles. I like the look of the mahogany coloured versions. The price listed at the site http://www.floatingtables.com is $400 which is different than is mentioned here. I'm wondering if the $275 is introductory pricing. Also, the deal is sweetened by the free shipping within Canada/US. I wish Kerry (Captain Kid)the best of success with this product as it looks like the final products have turned out quite nicely.

The concern of course though is whether this is yet another knockoff of the Losander table. This is a valid concern but the builder indicates that his table uses three different methods to accomplish the effect and unless proven otherwise this should be taken at face value.

If someone is considering a floating table this might be a good way to see if it's something that you like and that fits with your program. If you find it does and your happy with the table then it would appear that you've saved some money. The proviso being that the methodology used is in fact different than the Losander version.

If all else fails you can always use the $275 that you spent on this table to participate in Losander's $500 deal for trading in a table from any other manufacturer for one of his tables. You will find info on this promotional deal as well as the following quote from http://www.losander.com:

"Magicians like Jeff McBride, Eugene Burger, Lance Burton, Salvano, Moretti, Marco Tempest, Chuck Jones...have bought the original from Dirk Losander. All these people know how much effort and time it takes to create such a beautiful and amazing effect, and they all have one thing in common... They do not support copies in this business. Losander would appreciate if you, as a Magician of honor and integrity would do the same."

There are also a few Magic Café threads that address/debate this topic.

Who knew it was so complicated to buy a magic prop!

Jeff

ps. Another point to consider is the excellent DVD that comes with a Losander table. He really walks you through the presentation and how to enhance the illusion of the levitation/animation of the table. Otherwise it can end up just looking like you have a table on a stick. I've had my Losander table for several months and am still working at perfecting my routine and handling with it!
Message: Posted by: Mumblemore (Dec 10, 2008 10:26PM)
Jeff makes a good point. But of course the question still exists of whether Losander "invented" these tables, or whether we can trace their lineage back further. If Losander "owns" the idea to the satisfaction of The Magic Community, then yes, we should all reserve his copyright. But who is the arbiter of ownership (assuming there are no legal patents involved here)? If Losander is not the originator, but merely the most renowned crafter of such tables, then I say we should buy Kerry's (if they are good) and help put some pressure on dealers to lower prices at this time when we are all under great economic strain. I say thanks Kerry for entering a new product into the marketplace, and if it is a strong product, then we'll buy it and tell our friends.
Message: Posted by: eSamuels (Dec 10, 2008 11:25PM)
I've owned a number of different floating tables, and have kept only one; a Losander.

Regardless of the issue of origin (which I recognize is an important discussion point), I'll restrict my comments to the tables themselves. And please keep in mind that I have not seen, nor used the 'new' table discussed on this thread (although having seen other alleged "different methods," I can assure you that they all essentially work in the same manner).

First, the Losander table is designed and built significantly better than any other table I've used. It is incredibly light, yet surprisingly sturdy, with superb balance. Some of the other tables are quite heavy, by comparison, and this IS an issue in performance.

Second, Dirk's (Losander) training DVD is superb. As Bill Abbott suggests in his new "The Thing" upgrade kit, which contains training from Cirque De Soleil's Paul Wildbaum, a floating table performance requires significant 'performance,' and can look terrible when performed poorly.

My final point is the extraordinary support that comes with a Losander table. Through an absolute "duh" on my part, I severely damaged my table. Dirk's response and support was extraordinary - an rare virtue in today's magic market.

To encapsulate my experience with floating tables, when performed well, a Losander table is like an exquisite ballet...while, at best, the other tables I have owned were akin to a marginal line-dancing exhibition.

This is not a criticism of the 3-legged table that is the subject of this thread, but rather a compliment of the highest order for Losander tables. Yes, they are quite expensive (an investment, in fact) but you really do get what you pay for!
Message: Posted by: brainman (Dec 11, 2008 02:08AM)
Losander - balanced, light, looks good, easy to handle, looks magical in performance.
The video above did not seem magical to me in any approach. I would suggest to remove it from youtube as it gives away too much.
Just my personal opinion - and yes I also did own the cheaper ones - but Losander has great service and great tables.
Well - everyone has to decide by himself.
best,
T
Message: Posted by: TheTableTopTrixta (Dec 11, 2008 10:53AM)
Just checked ut the website with the other tables, they look ver very nice!

I have to say though the $275 one looks not so great!

Would love to hear from someone who has purchased one of these, I am in a situaton where I want a table for one particular part of my stand up act, I just find it hard to justify spending over a 1000 bucks for one, will a 400 one do the same job, if someone could pm me there thoughts on the item, just in case there are pople who have a view but would prefer to kee it private!

Regards

Ash
Message: Posted by: Paul Rathbun (Dec 11, 2008 11:57AM)
[quote]
On 2008-12-10 12:00, TheTableTopTrixta wrote:
Seriously?
[/quote]

The demo makes it painfully obvious what is going on. You can see the shape of the gimmick when it is being floated. Towards the end the gimmick is let go and you can see its shape swinging.
I try to encourage people but I can't get behind this one based on the demo.
Message: Posted by: sokarnl (Dec 11, 2008 12:06PM)
Balance looks off as well.
Message: Posted by: GarySumpter (Dec 11, 2008 02:21PM)
That video shows a cheap and NASTY product, absolutely awful!!!
Message: Posted by: eSamuels (Dec 11, 2008 03:15PM)
Ash, one of the tables I owned was the $400 version linked to earlier in this thread. It functions, but is not nearly as good as a Losander. So, to answer your question directly, ("I just find it hard to justify spending over a 1000 bucks for one, will a 400 one do the same job"), it does not do the "same job."
But for some people it will be acceptable.

Since you asked for opinions, I would urge you to wait until you can afford a (used) Losander (they do come up from time to time for sale), rather than buy an inferior prop. To use the oldest cliche in the book (which in itself is a cliche!), a Yugo and a BMW will both get you from point 'A' to point 'B,' but there is a significant quality distinction which has a bearing on the drive; the features; and (extremely important in an industry where image is paramount) the image that each projects (at the risk of sounding like a car snob).
Message: Posted by: Magicusa (Dec 11, 2008 04:56PM)
I didn't like this at all. My vote is for the "Losander".
Message: Posted by: KC Cameron (Dec 12, 2008 02:03AM)
I am trying to be as straight forward as possible in this post with the weaknesses as well as strengths of this new table. If you want to duplicate Losander’s performance, it would be best to use his tools.

I make magic props because I enjoy it, not to make a fortune. Most are just for myself. Sometimes I make a limited amount for others. I try to keep things reasonable because I have other revenue streams and I don’t want to become a manufacturer. My last product I sold, the “Monkeys Paw” was well received, and even was mentioned in at least one magic book.

No other magician has seen or used this table at all other than myself, so to vote, or to make judgments on something you don't know seems a bit absurd. I have no problem with someone not liking it, but these snap judgments seem to be more emoting than using analysis. Why be so nasty?

If you notice on my site, this table is not advertised. That is because currently there is only a handful. Yes, the video is bad, and it does seem off balanced, but I made the video with my autistic son screaming in my ear (hence no sound). Yes, I performed it poorly. The idea was to show how it floats, not to show off my talent. I wanted to document it before anyone else copied it, since I do use it in shows now and can be copied.

As for how it looks, How well can you tell from that video? I plan to shoot another video soon. No it will not be a fancy video that cost thousands of dollars. It will be another simple home video without all the "hype" – or a son acting up *G*. This will save buyers money. If you wish to spend your money on a Losander, go for it. In my experience most working magicians don’t have money to burn. This one is for them.

Does it look like a stool - sure - so what? Call it a floating stool if you like. Is a floating stool less remarkable? It is designed “Stool-like” on purpose. Three legs looks much bulkier/heavier than one column. It is much stronger, and can be used as a side table as well. If done outdoors, a little wind can knock over the standard Balsa wood table - not this one. You will have to work to break this one. Standard tables are extremely fragile - especially Losander’s because the gimmick he uses does not support much weight, so his balsa is very thin. I wouldn't recommend using one of these legs for a pick-up game of soft ball, but the legs are pretty strong and tough.

This one does not come with a case (Losander's is extra last I checked), but it doesn't need one. The legs are tough, and the top is heavier aluminum that a dove pan, but I would take a little care of it anyway, but compare to a balsa wood table, this is a brick house. No more emergency gluing.

As for looks, this one looks nice, not rough like Losander's lower model. The video does not show it well. It is a STAGE/PARLOUR item, not a close-up prop (as is Losander’s, so this really isn’t an issue either way). The one thing I will give the balsa wood ones is the top looks nicer. On this one, it is not designed to show the top (w/o cloth). You can show the top, it is just not as nice. I thought of using a balsa wood top, but I did not want to sacrifice the strength.

Please understand NO balsa wood table looks like fine furniture up-close - only from a distance. Balsa, does not finish well like walnut - but it is a LOT lighter!

Currently this does not come with instructions, but I will be making a video. The basics are pretty straight forward, and I am happy to talk to anyone and explain how it works.


I come from a bizarre position. I think magic should be believable as real. Real magic (as some believe in) is generally not elegant, but it is believable. If you do too much, people just can’t suspend reality and the “magic” performance becomes more of a puzzle. I think most magicians are seen as performing puzzles than magic.

Recently Losander preformed with a few other magicians in Raleigh. I conducted a small, informal poll after the show. As any magician who has preformed professionally knows, what magicians like and what a lay audience likes are often two different things. The result of my poll was some like his floating ball, and none were impressed with his table. While I did not expect rave reviews, I did not expect that. Everyone agreed that it was obvious he was using a “stick”. His elegance was lost on them because they wanted to see magic, they wanted to believe, and the floating table, as he did it, did not do the trick. Magicians like it, the lay people I asked were not so impressed.

Why? This type of routine has two major issues.
1) Like all zombie routines, with the exception of the “Thing”, the audience wants you to drop the cloth. They may not know exactly how it is done, but they know the cloth is hiding something. Why not just float it w/o touching it? Why does so much stage magic obviously hide things from the spectator behind cloths? I could never understand. Look at a sub-trunk. You pull up a cloth when the magic happens. You get a surprised reaction from the audience, but everyone knows something secret was happening behind the cloth, and it becomes a puzzle to ponder.
2) It violates the “Less is More” Principle. When you do something too extraordinary, it is too hard to believe – especially when it is obvious you are hiding something. Using small, even jerky movements is much more believable that grand, elegant floatation. It also give people less time to wonder how it was done and examine the technique. While Losander’s routine is beautiful and elegant, it challenges the viewers too much and becomes a elegant puzzle – not “real magic”. If this is your goal, fine. It is not mine. Let me give another example. When I do a fork bending, I do a little at a time. If the fork suddenly bent in half, it would become a puzzle. By making a series of very small bends it is easier for people to suspend disbelief.


My current routine is a drama/comedy routine. It is not about a table floating (although that happens), but a series of tricks with entertaining dialogue. I also use the “Thing” and my “Invisible Pet”. For the floating table part, the “Invisible Pet” moves, and briefly floats the table. It gets a great reaction, with very little movement. It also gives a reason to float. The table can make grandiose sweeping movements, but I chose not to do that, but to keep it believable. Do not want to discourage anyone from being elegant. I you want a Losander look-alike performance, then use his equipment. If you look at me in the video, it is easy to see I do not look elegant (physically), so why try?


As for what is better, what is worse, it all depends on what you desire. If you want to perform a floating table on stage indoors, and spend a lot of time making the performance elegant, and have plenty of money to buy two (they break easily) then Losander’s will probably be right for you.

If you are looking for something that is sturdy, can do double duty as a side table, holds up in the breeze; something you can toss in the back of your car, perform at birthday parties and on stage, indoors or out and don’t have a lot of money to spend, then this may be for you.


Now answering a few comments:

*L* First Losander did not invent the floating table, or the means of floating. He copied another, and then married it put the "Tommy Wonder " gimmick. He has done a marvelous job of marketing to make people believe he invented it w/o actually saying it is his idea. If ANYONE has a problem with me making these tables, then they should also have the same issue with Losander. I did get permission from the person who was making them far before Losander, and it is my understanding Losander did not. I asked if he did, and was told he did not. --I am not saying he should have, just that he did not. So few people bother to do the research before they criticize.

Second, Stan Corrected needs to be corrected. This does float in 3 different methods, one which is TOTALLY new, as far as I can research. No current table floats in this other method. Is this other method the most wonderful way possible? No, but it does enable you to do things you can't with Balsa tables. Here is the secret. One leg has a finger hole near the base. While floating it high, you can insert your finger and hold it up while letting go of the zombie gimmick. It does take some strength, some coordination and practice. I do not use this method in my act because I don’t make the grand gestures as does Losander.

Third, Stan Corrected says he has owned one of my $400. I can assure everyone he HAS NOT. On the other hand, he is right, this is not the same as a Losander’s. The way they float is different methods. This one IS MUCH heavier (and stronger) than Losander’s. My Balsa ones hare heavier than Losander’s too. The method I use does not rely on a table being feather-light and fragile. Even if you consider a Losander's a “BMW” (while taking nothing away from Losander's, I don't), you will find a Honda gets better millage with fewer break-downs than a BMW. Also most magicians will not be able to afford even the lower end Losander. In my opinion, you can spend your thousands in much better ways that a simple floating table. The main thing you get for your money with Losander's, as with a BMW, is prestige. Using this same logic you should wait for Ferrari?

Fourth, Stan Corrected advice to save up to buy a Losander’s and not buy another IS JUST BAD ADVICE ANYWAY YOU LOOK AT IT. If you buy this table and you like it, you are saving yourself a grand or more. If you are not happy with it, Losander will discount one of his tables $500 if you give him mine, saving you over $200. If you don’t like mine, and still have to save for Losander’s (even after the $500 discount), in the in–between you have one to use. You can’t lose.


Remember this table cost 1/4 the price of a low-end Losander. It is made for a working magician, not for bragging, which seems so prevalent among magicians. Your clients don't know who Losander is, only other magicians know him. This table WILL float in a similar manner (for the VAST majority of magicians)without the risks of breaking or the cost. If this is important to you, get one. If you don't like it you can always trade it for $500 off a Losander table as Jeff pointed out.

I personally like this one better. It won’t break like “Stan Corrected’s” Losander did -without some effort! Thus no shows disrupted due to a broken prop.

If you are like me you will make your own tables. Neither design is very hard to make and it is a lot of fun. The challenge of creating/designing your own is very rewarding. Ultimately, that is what this is all about for me. Balsa wood is very easy to work with, a $20 miter saw, $10 worth of clamps and a few hours and nearly anyone can make one. This new one of mine is even easier to make, but the materials are more expensive.
Message: Posted by: nikola paris (Dec 12, 2008 04:00AM)
I really don't understand such a post !

How can someone write so many wrong things in the the same post ?
How can you do any comparison between your "tool" and the incredible work of Mr Losander ? Have you got any sense of what is a levitation ? I don't think so !!!

You come here to do an advertisement of a product, in order to win money (what else ???), you do a bad video without any magic, of course, some people who know what does real magic have to look like, say you that your product may be not as good as you seem to think and what are you doing ? Try to destruct and discredit the wonderful work of Dirk Losander... IT'S A SHAME !!!!

About the quality of the video, you take your son as an hostage ? IT'S A SHAME ! I think people don't speak about the video, but the awful thing you put on it... It's everything but a levitation !!!! You used to perform that on stage ? IT'S A SHAME !!!!

In your post you mean that Losander didn't invent the Floating table ? Maybe, but for sure, his work is now worldwide known, and, for sure, he is now part of the magic history ... for ever ! Not only Mr Losander build an incredible tool, but he gave us the possibility to understand how to create a real levitation feeling...

After that you try to destruct Mr Losander as a performer ? A magician who used to do international tour for a long time, who was unanimously acclaimed all around the world ! SHAME ON YOU !!!!!

What you do here and everything you wrote is justy a SHAME !!!! If one day Magic die, it will be because of people like you....

The worst I can expect for you is to understand that what you said here is an offense for the magic community, and that your "floating table" is bad, and absolutely give no illusion....
Message: Posted by: KC Cameron (Dec 12, 2008 04:13AM)
We have a lot of people who like to talk about things they know little or nothing about. This particular forum is ripe with them giving reviews of various products that have never even seen – much lest used.

It is important to determine what type of magician you are. A working magician does magic full-time. Their needs are different from the guy that occasionally volunteers a party, or a collector of magic.

Many people who call themselves magicians actually are collectors of magic, and a magician’s "tools" are their “toys”. There is a big difference in point of view between magicians who see "Tools" and collector's "Toys". Some magicians here never do a commercial show, but own tens of thousands of dollars in magic toys. Some do a few shows for friends and occasionally volunteer a show to non-profit. These “magicians” may do a good job, they may do a bad job, but they are fundamentally different than a working magician – don’t be fooled. They often have high paying jobs and can afford very expensive magic toys and cars that many working magicians cannot afford.

A collector may be honestly trying to give you good advice to a struggling working or hobbiest magician, but they can’t in many situations. They do not have the demands a working magician has, and they don’t understand these demands. When you do maybe one magic show a month, as opposed to 9-10 a week, you have different priorities. You are not as interested in durability or ease of use. Magic is a toy, and complex tricks are fun to learn. If they break something, no big deal. If they don’t actually entertain the audience, no big deal. Their priorities are to entertain themselves first. I am not saying there is anything wrong with this – just different.

Working magicians know the magic is not in the props, but in personality. Expensive props are nice, but the routine is what is important – acting. Expensive props can never replace personality. Collector “Magicians” want to be personally entertained, so personality is often not as big a deal as the prop.

Dependability is a big deal with working magicians. If a prop breaks easily, or doesn’t function occasionally it can cause a disruption in a show – and can lead to less money in the pocket. People with magic toys are not so concerned.

Durability is a big deal with a working magician. The occasional magician doesn’t use things enough to worry about durability.

Ease of use is a big deal too. Learning complex moves is a lot of fun for many magicians you see at magic clubs. In real life of a working magician, the more complex and difficult something is, the more things to go wrong.


Crowd reaction is important. What entertains a magician may not entertain an audience. I do not know how many times I have thought an effect would amaze (because I liked it), and it didn’t. When your real goal is entertaining yourself, often entertaining the audience is ignored too much, if not completely.

Set-Up & tear down speed is important. When you have many shows and long drives, this is important. Often in a commercial show you have a very limited time to set-up and tear down. Those that occasionally volunteer a show are not under this pressure.

Storing and how well something travels is important – if you are just playing with magic this is not a big deal. Losander sells tables and if you want a case it is extra. Losander’s tables are very fragile, and to travel with one not in a case is perilous. Why does it come w/o a case? I can only assume many customers will rarely move their table out of their den.

Being able to use a prop for more than one thing is a big deal to a working magician. This saves on the haul in, as well on the pocket book.

A working magician gets what does the job. Why spend more, when you can get something that will do just fine cheaper. Working Magicians ARE NOT collectors of fine magic props untell they are very successful and can afford it. Their money is going in other hobbies and needs.

All this is to show some advice may be good for a collector, but not a working magician. One of the easiest ways of telling if someone is a working magician is to look at their website(s). If they don’t have a site, then magic is a hobby. They may perform well, but they don’t depend on it to feed their family so their needs are different. Sometimes a hobbyist has one or more websites, but it usually easy to tell. If they have the money, or they are a web developer, they will have a nice site, but it won’t be very commercial. If they have a website, but it looks like a 3rd grader made it, they may be a hobbyist, or a struggling pro. If their website is nice and commercial (that is commercial for magic, as opposed to costumes), then they are probably doing ok as a working magician.

Even then, if a person cannot see other uses besides their own narrow ideas of how things should look/be done – beware.

Many magicians also seem to need to impress others with their latest toy. There are a lot of very expensive props to fill this need.

What are you - a working pro or a collector, or a hobbiest. What can you afford? Some of us make a lot more than others. Listen to the advice of the type person you most want to emulate.

Most products are made to be sold to magicians first, and be entertaining to audiences second. They sell the sizzle – but in real life, it is not such a sensation with the audience. That is why there are the exciting videos.

Everything I do is with the working magician in mind. This IS NOT a collector's item. I try not to sell sizzle. I guarantee the product will be everything it is advertised, and I will hide no flaws. Perhaps I can do this because I am only a hobbyist at selling magic, not a flashy pro salesman. I don’t need to sell any tables. I do it because for now I enjoy it. As soon as I stop enjoying it, I will stop making them.
Message: Posted by: nikola paris (Dec 12, 2008 04:35AM)
As I see, you understand nothing... But one thing is sure : wich such mentality, the only illusions you will touch are the illusions you have in your head... What you are doing is not magic at all, the item you want to sell is just awful, and even for 10$, it will be too expensive... You don't need to sell any tables ? PLEASE DON'T !!!!
Message: Posted by: KC Cameron (Dec 12, 2008 06:06AM)
I posted the original post to get a little discussion going – yet people are popping out statements that have no bases on reality whatsoever. I GET I should have waited until I could make a better video . . . but it is not a big deal to sell these. Just a fun thing – or it was anyway. I will post another video in the future, just to clean up my part of the mess. If you want, I can prove Losander copied another floating table made in Europe ages ago. Other than that, this is my last post on this thread.

Guys, if you like seeing new products, then don’t get nasty. Don’t shoot from the hip. To the few of us that make products, these are our babies. If you don’t like it, we understand, but why are so many magicians just nasty, and possibly unstable? Why do magicians review products they know nothing, or next to nothing about? Why do so many magicians take such glee at slamming others?

I appreciate those that didn’t like it, and stated why in a civil way. It shows me what needs to be improved.

To those that like sounding like experts when they are not, and those who are just ugly individuals who think people will look up to them when they walk on others – get a life!

If anyone wants to discuss in a civil manner anything to do with this table, from ethics to use, I am more than happy to do so. Just give me a call. My guess, no calls. Phone calls are too real. It is easier to blast from a distance.


nikola paris
Quite a first post! When will your website be up?

It would be nice if you knew a little about me before you fly off in such a rant. *L* You do seem to fit what many Americans think of the French. Too bad.

I have taken nothing away from Losander other than him making statements that imply he has the original floating table and all others are copies is not true. He doesn't actually say this, for good reason, it is false, but it is implied in this clever piece of marketing:
"Magicians like Jeff McBride, Eugene Burger, Lance Burton, Salvano, Moretti, Marco Tempest, Chuck Jones...have bought the original from Dirk Losander. All these people know how much effort and time it takes to create such a beautiful and amazing effect, and they all have one thing in common... They do not support copies in this business. Losander would appreciate if you, as a Magician of honor and integrity would do the same."
-This is blatantly dishonest. Can’t say that I respect his honor integrity, but I do respect his marketing. People like to be in the company of these Magic giants, and if you buy anything else you have no honor or integrity and an outcast from the magical community. Brilliant. Not true, but brilliant.


Does Losander have a place in magic history? Certainly, and far, far bigger than mine. He was the one that made this type of levitation popular, but is far from the inventor. Does that mean one has to buy from him?

As for Losander’s Table, I have said nothing against it but two things that anyone who owns one knows. 1) it is very fragile 2) It is very expensive.

As for performing that on stage, While your English seems to be good, I assume you are not a native speaker, and so did not understand that I DON'T try to be a Losander look-alike as you seem to be. My presentation is much different, with no big movements. That video was for two things: to document the design, and show the mechanics of how it works. I spent less than 5 minutes doing it. I get I should have done a better job.

I am sure everyone here has at least seen a video of Losander’s floating table. It is very elegant. I was surprised by the audience reaction, I thought it would be better received. I am not "Destroying" Losander. How Could I? As you said, he performs internationally. You seem to give me a lot more power that I thought I had. People's tastes are changing. Losander's style no longer seems to be as captivating with the public. As much as you may dislike them, today's public likes Chris Angel and David Blain far more. Losander is traveling with 4 other magicians, He is not attracting a show by himself or even trying. I didn’t even know he was one of the magicians. I believe the old style of stage magic is on the way out - which is fine by me. People no longer will allow someone to be successful in magic while obviously hiding the secret behind a cloth. Times change.

I can make magic die? Wow. I am doing a bad job at that. I have literally hundreds of glowing reviews for corporations, individuals, a few minor celebrities, who love my shows . . . yep I am killing magic. LMAO

Why do some magicians worship Losander like a fanatic? Sure, he has a good show, but I can think of many I enjoy much more, yet people are not fanatical about Harry Anderson or Lance Burton in the same way. Sure, he has some nice products, but there are tons of magicians who are much more inventive. What causes this Frenchman (and others) such devotion?

My God, this is just a hobby of mine, why such fuss? Why get so personal and nasty? Something else must be troubling your French head than a $275 table. Help, the sky is falling!
Message: Posted by: nikola paris (Dec 12, 2008 06:37AM)
One more time you don't understand the problem... and THAT'S THE BIGGEST PROBLEM !

I don't want to underline what you said about french people or about me... Such mentality is a pity...

Now, you speak about prototype... You admit that your product is not finished... SO : WHY DO YOU SELL IT ?!!!

Hopefully you build "magic items"... Hopefully you don't build cars... otherwhise some people would die...

The other thing I can't understand is your attacks against Losander... His work is brilliant, his items are high quality. Expensive ? I don't think so.... For such a high quality professionally improve that give me such a wondrful, practical tool, I would be ready to pay twice.... Did Losander said he invented the floating table ? I don't think so ! But he put this illusion to such a high level, that he could say it without any problem.

You say he is doing "old style magic" ? My god !!! Look at the video you gave use to see ! Your clothesd, your attitudes, you gesture, the way you look at us accross the camera, the way you feel the "levitation"... EVERYTHING IS WRONG !!!!!

Please, prove me that I'm wrong with another video... I'll be the first to apologize if it's better... But you know, you don't need to see a lot to understand if someone understood "magic"....

To finish, you speak about me, my website, my knowledge, etc... The problem is not me ! I don't want to sell anything... I just have the RIGHT to react to something you exposed to the magic community and don't have to give any justification for that... But you seem to worry about me... Don't worry, evrything is OK !
Message: Posted by: gmindmagic (Dec 12, 2008 10:12AM)
Hi
The tables on the Floating Tables website above look like the same, and I'll bet they are made by Thomas Clark. ( you do a search with his name) He use to sell them on ebay and his site. I do own one so I would comment on it, but I won't!!! He had promised not to sell them any longer and removed them from his site after taking much heat. You guys take it from there.
Message: Posted by: eSamuels (Dec 12, 2008 11:25AM)
Thad, while I understand your defensiveness because you might have felt that your thread had become quite critical, the vitriol seems excessive.

For the record, allow me to clarify the points I made, which you have countered.
But before I do that, if you re-read my original post, I did state, quite clearly:
"Regardless of the issue of origin (which I recognize is an important discussion point), I'll restrict my comments to the tables themselves. And please keep in mind that I have not seen, nor used the 'new' table discussed on this thread"

I also want to be careful with what I say, as this thread appears to already have tipped over the 'exposure' line.

With that in mind:

1.
[quote]
Stan Corrected needs to be corrected. This does float in 3 different methods, one which is TOTALLY new, as far as I can research. No current table floats in this other method. Is this other method the most wonderful way possible? No, but it does enable you to do things you can't with Balsa tables. Here is the secret. One leg has a finger hole near the base. While floating it high, you can insert your finger and hold it up while letting go of the zombie gimmick. It does take some strength, some coordination and practice. I do not use this method in my act because I don’t make the grand gestures as does Losander.
[/quote]
I acknowledge that one of your "methods" appears to be unique (the "finger" method - which looks more like a balancing act than a floating performance), but let's be honest, the main method for floating this style of table is shared. Regardless of minor modifications to the device, or the angle from which it 'attaches,' the main floating methodology is essentially the same. The 3rd method, the table top/flat hand method/gaff has been most certainly been used before, and, as we all know, is a variant of the 'hands-free' method employed with a box, vase, or simply the bare hand using a m*****t.

2.
[quote]
Third, Stan Corrected says he has owned one of my $400. I can assure everyone he HAS NOT. On the other hand, he is right, this is not the same as a Losander’s. The way they float is different methods. This one IS MUCH heavier (and stronger) than Losander’s. My Balsa ones hare heavier than Losander’s too. The method I use does not rely on a table being feather-light and fragile. Even if you consider a Losander's a “BMW” (while taking nothing away from Losander's, I don't), you will find a Honda gets better millage with fewer break-downs than a BMW. Also most magicians will not be able to afford even the lower end Losander. In my opinion, you can spend your thousands in much better ways that a simple floating table. The main thing you get for your money with Losander's, as with a BMW, is prestige. Using this same logic you should wait for Ferrari?
[/quote]
I did, in fact, own a table that looks identical to the diamond mahogany on your site (with purple tasseled cloth), for which I paid $400, but not directly from you (it was a Thomas Clark table). I would be surprised if it was not the one pictured, but as I did not buy it directly from you, I will certainly acknowledge the possibility that it is not one of yours. Regardless, as you have stated, the table is heavier than a Losander - which has a direct bearing on how it will 'float.'

As for your response to my car analogy; on that, my friend, we simply do not agree!

3.
[quote]
Fourth, Stan Corrected advice to save up to buy a Losander’s and not buy another IS JUST BAD ADVICE ANYWAY YOU LOOK AT IT. If you buy this table and you like it, you are saving yourself a grand or more. If you are not happy with it, Losander will discount one of his tables $500 if you give him mine, saving you over $200. If you don’t like mine, and still have to save for Losander’s (even after the $500 discount), in the in–between you have one to use. You can’t lose.
[/quote]
I stand by my statement. I would also reiterate that "for some people it will be acceptable." (in reference to less expensive tables)

Finally, my post very clearly stated:
[quote]
This is not a criticism of the 3-legged table that is the subject of this thread, but rather a compliment of the highest order for Losander tables. Yes, they are quite expensive (an investment, in fact) but you really do get what you pay for!
[/quote]
I appreciate how you may feel that your initial post was 'hijacked,' but when you are marketing a product in a category where the leading brand has a very strong following, comparisons are inevitable and justified. Particularly from a designer who has a very loyal customer base, based upon both his product and his customer service.

All the best.

e
Message: Posted by: gmindmagic (Dec 12, 2008 11:42AM)
Hi

Captain are yo sure you manufacture these or just sell them for Thomas. Here's a link to a thread: http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=204964&forum=112&start=0 Read this thread a lot will come to light.

In 2007 you are defending Thomas and touting his table and you have his pictures on the floating table website.

Oh and buy the way on Thomas's site, on his homepage http://www.magicsax.com there is a picture of him with one of his tables.

Thomas I have nothing against you. Heck I even have one of your tables it's been sittin in the case since I purchased it off ebay (Losander should not have to absorb my stupitity). And yes Thomas is one of the niciest guys, who will try to make anything right. I just get a tingle when all the sudden last year Thomas removes the tables from is online store and now the Capt'n is selling them? Arrrrr!
Message: Posted by: Tony Chapparo (Dec 12, 2008 04:35PM)
[quote]
On 2008-12-10 14:43, The Great Smartini wrote:

If all else fails you can always use the $275 that you spent on this table to participate in Losander's $500 deal for trading in a table from any other manufacturer for one of his tables. You will find info on this promotional deal as well as the following quote from http://www.losander.com:


[/quote]

What? This is just wrong. Losander should knock $500.00 off of one of his creations just because someone wants to test drive a likely lesser model?? Plain wrong.
Message: Posted by: The Great Smartini (Dec 13, 2008 02:25AM)
[quote]
On 2008-12-12 17:35, Tony Chapparo wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-12-10 14:43, The Great Smartini wrote:

If all else fails you can always use the $275 that you spent on this table to participate in Losander's $500 deal for trading in a table from any other manufacturer for one of his tables. You will find info on this promotional deal as well as the following quote from http://www.losander.com:


[/quote]

What? This is just wrong. Losander should knock $500.00 off of one of his creations just because someone wants to test drive a likely lesser model?? Plain wrong.
[/quote]

Tony,

The intention of this thread was to have people give a fellow magician an opportunity to promote/showcase their product. I'm certain that constructive feedback or respectfully asked questions would have likely been met with a reasonable response. I do like the look of the tables shown on the website but not so with the table/stool shown in the video.

I readily admit that I don't know the full history of the floating table. I do know that I respect Dirk Losander's work and his tables. I believe his tables are the best available and I regularly use my Losander table in my science show. I've had the honour of attending the Mystery School for the past two years and have the highest respect for both Jeff and Eugene. If they endorse the Losander table that is everything I need to know. Please note that I say "I" as I readily acknowledge that different people have different opinions on the history of the floating table. I'm not in any position to judge others particularly when I don't know the whole story.

So I say it's comes down to an individual choice and people are able to make their own decisions on what feels right to them. We don't have to agree and it would be nice if we all did this in a more pleasant fashion rather than getting personal or nasty. So if people are comfortable with the Losander integrity proviso then they have the right to try out these tables. If this doesn't work out for them then they also have every right to participate in the $500 promotion.

Still, I think I understand where Tony is coming from and Tony please correct me if I'm mistaken. You're advocating for people to purchase tables directly from Losander and not buy other tables because you consider them to be copies or knock offs. This is a totally reasonable position that is supportive of Dirk Losander and his tables. However, if he has a trade in promotion (and it appears that he has it because of what some believe to be the prevalence of floating table knock offs) then people are allowed participate in this program. Finally, for the record I respect the work of Dirk Losander and that is why I have one of his tables.

jeff

ps. .
Message: Posted by: 1906Alpha1906 (Dec 13, 2008 11:00AM)
Ok, I, Thomas Clark, just happened to run across this post as I frequent the Café often to see different areas of things, and I have to step in ONLY BECAUSE my name has once again been brought up in a fashion that I feel is unacceptable! Pretty much I am at the end of my rope with a lot of this to be honest with you. Enough is enough.

First, Stan Corrected, did in fact purchase his table from me directly LAST YEAR in 2007, I did IN FACT make that table THEN. He made his purchase is APRIL of 2007. That was over a year and a half ago. A YEAR AND A HALF AGO PEOPLE!!!! That was when I was advertising them, and then all the controversy started in AUGUST of 2007 (Yes, 2007!!!!!!!!). After all the unwarranted attacks about them and the things said, I felt it best to stop advertising them and pull them from my site, which I respectfully did. And now, a year and a half later, some have the nerve to bring me back into this? ARE YOU KIDDING ME!? My point here is that Stan did not purchase it from Captain Kid, that is correct, he purchased it from me, Thomas Clark.

The tables on Captain Kids site are in fact old tables. I talked with Captain Kid LAST YEAR 2007, 2007 - SEE THE YEAR - 2007?! when all the controversy had started, and being the craftsman he is, he had asked me if it were "ok" for him to make tables since I was not going to be doing it any more. He liked the styles that I had to offer. I told him he was more than welcome to do anything he wanted to do because I was "over it", and I was over dealing with the issue. I also warned him about this kind of behavior from others. We chatted about a few things person to person, and the designs he was more than welcome to have. I was over the crap being said, and was over the negativity being spit out at me, and they now belonged to Captain Kid. Well folks, if so much research was being put into everything, why didn't you research the 'startup date" on Captain Kids site? huh? - you'll find it was LAST YEAR 2007!!!

Captain called me a few times about a few things on the table (in 2007!!!), but as far as I know, he only started the site, and didn't follow through (correct me if I'm wrong Captain Kid, please). We chatted again, and he told me he was going to develop a whole new table, a whole new method, and not use what I said he could have. So, folks, the site was there, but was not being used. I know, I know you're asking "Then why keep it up?" - I don't know, its not my site, I have enough issues to deal with than someone else's webspace! I am sure that with his new table, those old tables will be taken down which is probably a good Idea to do Captain Kid, and your new tables to be put on.

I am just clarifying things here is all, so don't 'fire back' at me, as I should not have even been brought into this by ANY MEANS whatsoever.

Gmindmagic - I am not upset with you, but to make that comment about 'absorbing your stupidity' Kind of hurts. Sorry you feel that way. I hope that my explanation has cleared up why MY table, on MY site, is the same.

Leave me out of this. This thread is NOT about me, so don't even go there! Honestly, I am pretty ticked off right now if you couldn't tell (not that it matters to anyone because you are miles away and could care less I know, and I normally don't blast my emotions out on the internet, but this has to stop.

-Alpha - THOMAS CLARK
Message: Posted by: TheTableTopTrixta (Dec 13, 2008 11:07AM)
Thomas I feel for you man, this thread it BRUTAL!

Can this just stop

buy a table of you like them, don't buy one of you don't like them

Simple
Message: Posted by: The Great Smartini (Dec 13, 2008 12:30PM)
[quote]
On 2008-12-13 12:07, TheTableTopTrixta wrote:
Thomas I feel for you man, this thread it BRUTAL!

Can this just stop

buy a table of you like them, don't buy one of you don't like them

Simple
[/quote]

I agree with this and one would think that buying a magic prop could be as simple as that. Unfortunately, it seems like this isn't the case. The problem of course stems from the great number of ripoffs (and I'm not saying that Captain Kid, Thomas did this...not saying that at all). Many (including myself)can easily slip into a tone of conversation that we wouldn't ordinarily have with a fellow magician. I know that we're all adults and we can take criticism but I'd still really like the discussions at the Café to be more constructive. If one believes that something is being done that's wrong then it certainly more productive to send them a PM where it can discussed more privately. None of us end up looking good in these types of posts and if our potential clients do a "Blackle" search they can easily end up being directed to one of our Café posts which would likely leave a somewhat negative impression. I say this as someone who has found myself doing this and its really not cool. Captain Kid and I have had some "heated" discussions in our time here at the Café and I think that's because we both have strong opinions about our magic. I hope that in this thread that I've steered clear of this type of commentary and have stated my thoughts in a more respectful manner. Captain Kid is an extremely knowledgeable magician as is evident in many of his posts. He's also a guy that shoots from the hip so to speak and I respect that kind of person as you always know what you're getting. He's a real person, who doesn't need me defending him, but hey why shouldn't I stand up for him if I feel that's appropriate?

jeff
Message: Posted by: Douglas Lippert (Dec 13, 2008 02:48PM)
Did Losander invent the floating table? Can someone just answer that?
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (Dec 13, 2008 04:12PM)
[quote]
On 2008-12-11 00:25, Eric Samuels wrote:
I've owned a number of different floating tables, and have kept only one; a Losander.

Regardless of the issue of origin (which I recognize is an important discussion point), I'll restrict my comments to the tables themselves. And please keep in mind that I have not seen, nor used the 'new' table discussed on this thread (although having seen other alleged "different methods," I can assure you that they all essentially work in the same manner).

First, the Losander table is designed and built significantly better than any other table I've used. It is incredibly light, yet surprisingly sturdy, with superb balance. Some of the other tables are quite heavy, by comparison, and this IS an issue in performance.

Second, Dirk's (Losander) training DVD is superb. As Bill Abbott suggests in his new "The Thing" upgrade kit, which contains training from Cirque De Soleil's Paul Wildbaum, a floating table performance requires significant 'performance,' and can look terrible when performed poorly.

My final point is the extraordinary support that comes with a Losander table. Through an absolute "duh" on my part, I severely damaged my table. Dirk's response and support was extraordinary - an rare virtue in today's magic market.

To encapsulate my experience with floating tables, when performed well, a Losander table is like an exquisite ballet...while, at best, the other tables I have owned were akin to a marginal line-dancing exhibition.

This is not a criticism of the 3-legged table that is the subject of this thread, but rather a compliment of the highest order for Losander tables. Yes, they are quite expensive (an investment, in fact) but you really do get what you pay for!
[/quote]

Agree...I saw Losander do his in Vegas, a precious sight to behold.
Message: Posted by: Mumblemore (Dec 13, 2008 08:55PM)
Who is nikola paris and why is he so brutal in his criticism? There is no law being violated here? How dare anyone but Losander sell floating tables?

I think Kerry (Thad) makes a great point about durability and about the needs of the working magician and I think that's all we should ask of him. Me, I drive a Toyota, and these days I am darned glad I do. . . I find that sometimes those who get too caught up in the "sizzle" (that is the right word for it), often get burned. So thanks for making this table available. Yes the production values on the video could have been better, but it looks like a good piece of work and I hope I can purchase one.

Regards,

Todd
Message: Posted by: Nat (Dec 13, 2008 09:05PM)
I, too, am looking forward to purchasing your table. And thanks for the discussion...it seems that some individuals hold an position that is not based on information, simple a lack of knowledge.
Nate


[quote]
On 2008-12-09 21:15, CaptainKid wrote:
1)3x 30" legs - optional 3 x 6" legs!
2) Much Stronger
3) Can work as a side table too -will hold 20 lbs.
4) floats ala zombie, magnetic and a new method.
5) $275
Coming Soon!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVk_5wX6dyQ
[/quote]
Message: Posted by: Mumblemore (Dec 13, 2008 09:48PM)
What I don't understand is why people get so worked up about this. Unless Losander came up with the idea, he does not have the patent (not to mention that others could readily come up with it separately). It is not rocket science.

I am sure Losander's tables are fantastic, but they are not for everyone. Many of us would be worried to death about breaking one (I've seen them and how fragile they are - but yes, they are amazing when performed by someone who knows what they're doing). When I get to the Vegas nightclub level, I'll worry about it. In the meantime, I'll take Kerry's to my preschool shows and, if he is right, be thrilled that I have a more versatile prop to work with.


And this is not to disparage all the workmanship that no doubt goes into Losander tables, only to reiterate that Losander does not have the monopoly. There is still a free market, and clearly one which needs more selection on the value side (rather than just quality with "money being no object"), which Kerry seems to be addressing. Rather than poo-pooing the effort, we should laud it. If his product succeeds, this will put pressure on all dealers to lower their prices. No doubt Losander's tables are great, but what kind of markup do they have? Let's give Kerry's a try before torpedoing it. Why the aggression?
Message: Posted by: The Great Smartini (Dec 13, 2008 11:30PM)
Todd,

Good to hear from you on this topic. I hope that all is well with you and your magic. You've made many interesting and intelligent points on this topic. As I've stated in my previous posts I really don't know the whole history of the floating table debate. I originally purchased a table which wasn't a Losander table. Initially I was quite happy with myself for finding one at such a good price. Subsequent to this I came across the Losander tables including the proviso that I mentioned earlier ("...as a magician of honour...") I felt uncomfortable and thought I'd done something wrong as I assumed that the table that I purchased was a "copy". Accordingly, I switched to the Losander table when the opportunity presented itself.

I understand your position about the free market system but how then does a magical artist protect their original ideas, acts or products(again don't know if Losander has or should have exclusive rights to the floating table)? Perhaps they do this by providing the best product or by products at various price points that help maintain their market share.

jeff
Message: Posted by: tdowell (Dec 13, 2008 11:45PM)
Who cares who came up with the idea. That is not important.

The video of the "New Floating Table" is an absolute joke. I agree with paso8396 that the gimmick is painfully obvious. In my opinion this table is a disgrace to the art. In my opinion the developer had no love for the product or its performance.

This is about development and love of product and how it is performed for real people. Not money or profit. You must understand the product and have love for it and the handling of it.

There is no way I would ever buy any floating table set that was not produced and endorsed by someone who loves doing what they do, the true king of levitation:

LOSANDER!

Everything else is a joke.
Message: Posted by: The Great Smartini (Dec 13, 2008 11:52PM)
Todd,

How do you feel about the tables that are shown on the website? These appear to be of a good quality by someone who cares. Could you help me with a Coles notes version of the Losander table debate? Is this an original idea that was developed by Dirk or are his tables an improvement on something that came before? Thanks for any light you can shed on this.

jeff
Message: Posted by: tdowell (Dec 14, 2008 01:17AM)
[quote]
On 2008-12-14 00:52, The Great Smartini wrote:
Todd,

How do you feel about the tables that are shown on the website? These appear to be of a good quality by someone who cares. Could you help me with a Coles notes version of the Losander table debate? Is this an original idea that was developed by Dirk or are his tables an improvement on something that came before? Thanks for any light you can shed on this.

jeff
[/quote]

You don't get it.
Message: Posted by: gmindmagic (Dec 14, 2008 08:20AM)
Thomas

I do apologize your craftsmanship is suburb on the construction of the table I have, and it is a different animal than a Losander. Heck you make it look great on your videos.

What I meant by my stupidity is maybe I feel stupid as a working pro going to Losander with something that I purchased and just don't use, sayin here absorb it! Yes I know he gives a $500.00 credit towards one of his upper price tables and I did ask him about it in conversation his feeling are very strong on this Its his only way to have some sort of defense .

I guess I just prefer the more delicate handling of a Losander. The only reason I brought your name into this was because of your old pics on the floating table web site. Maybe the Captain should just re shoot his own pics, if he is going to sell your old table design. Again Thomas sorry. You are out of this.
Message: Posted by: magicmann (Dec 14, 2008 10:02AM)
I have just watched the video and I thought the table looks good. I assume you don't have to stuff your finger in the leg which is obvious.

I welcome anyone who wishes to try to add to our art, this is clearly not a Losander copy.

By the way who did first invent the floating table.

Paul
Message: Posted by: Eddie Garland (Dec 14, 2008 11:33AM)
[quote]
On 2008-12-14 11:02, magicmann wrote:
this is clearly not a Losander copy.
Paul
[/quote]

Well...Certainly not an acceptable copy...not even close.
Message: Posted by: GarySumpter (Dec 14, 2008 11:45AM)
Reading this with interest.

Aside from the moral issues, which aren't LEGAL issues, but we all LIKE Losander and what he brings to our community, there is the issue of the prop and what it does.

Lets say that this product being sold here was the first ever floating table.

Having seen how it 'floats', 'swings' and balances, would you buy it?

Me? No.
Message: Posted by: Mumblemore (Dec 14, 2008 03:16PM)
I think Capt Kid (Kerry) cares about the art of magic. To infer otherwise without knowing him would be quite presumptuous. I think the tables look good, and furthermore help solve the problem of transporting balsa wood. I can't know for sure until I have one in my hands (and am hoping to purchase one and if I do, I will post about it), but all this pedigree nonsense (if Losander did not breathe upon it, it's not a floating table) is ridiculous. I agree with Jeff that in the market, people produce products at different price points to keep a market share. That's exactly what Kerry is doing. He is seeking a different market share than Losander's; that is what creates a demand for his good (assuming it is a quality product for the price). I cannot say for sure about the product; I can say that we should not "witch hunt" the guy just for challenging Losander. Tdowell's statement that "everything else is a joke" if it's not made by Losander is a little extreme, is it not? I have had interactions with Tdowell and find him to be a reasonable guy, but let's allow Capt. Kid to get his product out, and then judge it. Shall we?
Message: Posted by: cardone (Dec 14, 2008 08:41PM)
Just looking at the video it can be judged. The legs in the video Wobble .....look closely. And the Gimmick is very obvious. Whats next.. a $50 table or even better... one made of cardboad in kids magic kits ......Tommy Wonder's Zombie gimmick system that Losander uses makes all the others look bad. If you can't notice the subtlety of why that Wonder system is better then there is no help.
I did a gig a few years ago and someone after the show said to me "Wow that was great ....I never saw that done with a real table before...I saw It done a few weeks ago with a fake table" Case closed for me ...
Message: Posted by: The Great Smartini (Dec 15, 2008 01:45AM)
[quote]
On 2008-12-14 02:17, tdowell wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-12-14 00:52, The Great Smartini wrote:
Todd,

How do you feel about the tables that are shown on the website? These appear to be of a good quality by someone who cares. Could you help me with a Coles notes version of the Losander table debate? Is this an original idea that was developed by Dirk or are his tables an improvement on something that came before? Thanks for any light you can shed on this.

jeff
[/quote]

You don't get it.
[/quote]

Todd,

What don't I get? I own an original Losander table which I purchased as I thought it was the "right" thing to do. I read the Losander ad and saw that it had the support of Jeff McBride, Eugene Burger and many others. I have the utmost respect for Jeff and Eugene and this is why I've attended Mystery School for the past two years. It would appear that I have respect for Losander as I purchased one of his tables. Again, what don't I get?

As I read through this thread I hear that some people have a different opinion on the origin of the floating table. I don't know the history and so I asked the question hoping to find out more. Earlier this evening I was going through the guests of honour threads and when I saw Losander's comments I took the time to review it and found the following quote from Dirk:

"I will always remember when I invented the table. I showed the effect to my friend, Salvano. His mouth dropped, and he said that it was the best levitation effect he had ever seen, but if I wanted to master it - I would have a lot of work to do.

From that day on, I worked for over a year on the effect and came up with the presentation and all the details which help make this illusion so good. I will always remember what Salvano had said after a day of rehearsal when my fingers were almost bleeding (the magic was not easy and he kept laughing)."

So for me the Losander debate appears quite simple...he claims to have invented the floating table and people like Jeff, Eugene, Lance Burton and others seem to accept this as fact. Good enough for me and so it would appear my decision to purchase a Losander table was the right one.

Hopefully now you might think that I "get it". I still don't get why some people don't feel that he invented the floating table and am interested to find out their thoughts on the matter. If someone would take the time to do this I would find it most interesting. Thanks!

jeff
Message: Posted by: cardone (Dec 15, 2008 07:30AM)
Yes ...He did invent the modern style of the floating table ... all the new ones are knock off of his invention and style ... no one is knocking off the old Abbotts or the Owen magic style ....Tommy Wonder helped with the gimmick which Losander gives credit to ....This is a mom and pop business no one in magic is making multi Millions ... except the stuff marketed to laymen .... Whats next ....$200.00 fire cages ..... Or even better how about Cardboard sub trunks ... T shirt Straight Jackets ... so every hobbiest feels like a pro ...
Message: Posted by: SpellbinderEntertainment (Jan 1, 2009 09:25PM)
Thank you Cardone!

After all the banter on this thread, a few more clarifications:

The most common “raising table” was a Sprit Medium prop,
back in the 1800’s, it was generally a four-legged table,
raised by touch …but did not “float” as such.
There are several commercial versions today.

In consort with the late Tommy Wonder,
Losander developed several innovative floating gimmicks,
he applied one of his innovations to a “plant stand” style table.

So, yes,
Losander IS the originator of this version of the effect we love today.

There are other non-zombie methods on the market,
that do not interfere with Losander’s inventions,
such as magnetic and clip gimmicks.
They tend to rise but not float extensively.
Most are heaver and clunky.

Losander provides:
-An original methodology and handling
-A solid teaching of technique and routining
-Extremely high-quality props: attractive, deceptive, durable

There are many, many knock-offs appearing on the scene,
those found on the website in this thread
show some of these inferior knock-offs.

You get what you pay for, and that’s not much.
Some people drive a Lexis, some a Mercedes, and
some a broken-down old jalopy that gets from point A to B
The question is:
What do you want in your show,
what do your props and quality say about your magic.

If you can’t afford a high-quality Floating Table,
then my advice is- there are thousands of other effects to perform.
If you wish to put the effort, sweat, and artistry into this effect,
then scrimp and save and buy a true Losander.

He did the research and the combined innovation,
he provides the quality -and excellent product support,
he’s worked decades to perfect his product and performance.

…Add to this Losander is a kind, honest, gentleman of high-integrity!

All the verbiage in the world will not take that away from him,
and until someone finds and PROVES a totally innovative new method,
which is effective and magical,
I suggest not supporting unethical, inferior, and
second-rate bargain-basement badly designed and constructed knock-offs.

My thoughts,
Walt
Message: Posted by: en2oh (Jan 21, 2009 10:01PM)
Speaking of "Paper Floating Tables", there is a website that 'exposes' magic effects http://www.learnmagictricks.org which has a floating table effect made literally of cardboard. The 'gimmicks' are so poor as to be comical. Bottom line is that this is less about ownership of design than it is about teaching the art of floating a table. I won't post the link in case someone seriously thinks this is exposure but it's worth the time to search for this.

I think it's interesting that associated with these copycat props, the innovators have dropped their prices and brought introductory effects (Losanders' $500 beginners table) to the market. This is about free market and supply and demand. When a patented drug goes "off patent", the innovator company sales immediately drop >70%. If the innovator isn't challenged by imitation, there is little to drive progress. Prices fall, version 2.x products are released and the field advances. This is good for our field. It's good for most fields.

None of this is meant to detract from Losander's incredible products. His props are only a part of the value, as several have pointed out. What is a shame is that when strong personalities get fired up, good people can get frustrated, fed up and leave the forum. As a result, we're the worse for it. I was really saddened to see Thomas C dragged into this. I had taken a moment to email him last year about his tables and experiences with the forum when the topic was 'hot' and he generously responded to me "off line". Sean B took time to answer questions about his electronic props, again off line with no obvious sale in sight. That's what really talented professionals do. It's good business and most feel better for it.

In the natural history of a list/forum, good people get frustrated as a vocal few hijack the threads for their own ends and some good members ultimately leave. Sad but true. I hope no one is lost as a result of this thread.

Thanks to all who helped clarify and illuminate the issues. It's been well worth my time to read them.

Doug