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Topic: Memorized deck routine
Message: Posted by: pegasus (Dec 31, 2008 06:36AM)
I remember Derren Brown handing a deck of cards to his spec to shuffle, he then performed a deck switch (out of view of camera) and then riffled very quickly through the cards as if memorising the deck. He then gave the deck to the spec and proceeded to name every card as she dealt on to the table. I very much want to learn this routine and I am pretty sure Simon Aronson does a variation. Could anyone point me to any Books, DVD's etc that outline this routine?
Message: Posted by: Bobby Forbes (Dec 31, 2008 07:48AM)
All you need to do is learn a memorized stack. Basically all this routine seems to be is "practice" for you once you learn it because you are just merely naming the cards in your stack order.

Jaun Tamariz' book "mnemonica" is a huge 400 plus page book on this subject. Well worth checking out. One good thing is, after a few overhand shuffles and cuts and a couple faro's from new deck order, your in the mem deck stack ;)
Message: Posted by: Magicray69 (Dec 31, 2008 10:09AM)
Yes! Switch deck to a set up deck (Si Stebbins) and you have a miracle!
Message: Posted by: jstone (Dec 31, 2008 10:20AM)
In my opinion, the best stack system to date is Richard Osterlind's Break Through Card System. You can get it from his site.
Message: Posted by: Donnie Buckley (Dec 31, 2008 10:36AM)
I second that opinion jstone. If you did the Brown presentation with Si Stebbins or 8 Kings, the sequence would be noticed - this is NEVER going to happen with Osterlind's BTCS. It's my favorite stack too.
Message: Posted by: Bobby Forbes (Dec 31, 2008 10:40AM)
I learned osterlinds years ago as well. Very good thinking. I then switched to the joyal stack for a while, then decided to learn the mnemonica stack which I currently use for mem deck effects
Message: Posted by: Donnie Buckley (Dec 31, 2008 10:55AM)
Hey Bobby,
I have the Taramiz book but have not memorized the stack yet. Osterlind has published some stuff on memorizing his stack. I know Juan included poker deals in his stack, and he also has the quick set up with faro shuffles, but I didn't think the quick set up was all so quick when applied to US new deck order... Do you think the Osterlind stack can be as strong if memorized as the Tamariz stack is? What do you think? I'm willing to memorize the stack I use, but reluctant to memorize another.
Message: Posted by: Bobby Forbes (Dec 31, 2008 11:09AM)
Of the few mem decks that I have learned, I'd say mnemonica was the easiest and fastest to recall. No mnemonics to remember, or words, or phrases. SO when you recall a card or a number, the association is immediate instead of having to decipher what this object, or what this phrase means then having to convert that to a playing card. Just takes too much time for me lol.

The osterlid stack is a great stack, and if you memorize it...thats even better!! Not only can you do mem deck routines with it, but even if you forget your mem deck, you have the formula to work off of ;) So I'd say it really doesn't matter which stack you go with.

I'm finding it impossible to forget any cards in the Tamariz stack simply because of the way I memorized it. I memorized most of the cards just like it says to do in the book. The others I used the Dominic Memory System.

Harry Lorayne has some great work worth checking out for memorizing pretty much anything IN LIFE LOL, including a deck of cards. If you have trouble memorizing a stack for some reason, be sure to look up Harry Loraynes stuff on the subject. Loraynes and Dominic Obrien's systems are the only ones worth checking out in my opinion.

So...The only real advantage I see in switching from osterlinds to Tamariz' would be the built in effects. Other than that, a mem deck is a mem deck. Hope this helps
Message: Posted by: Donnie Buckley (Dec 31, 2008 11:21AM)
Thanks Bobby, that's what I thought as well. I've got to read the effects in the book - I only read the set up and memorization techniques.
Nice of you to mention the Lorayne memory work - I've used his techniques for short term memory stunts at parties in just casual settings. Once you know it, you never forget it and your audience finds it very weird...
Message: Posted by: The Burnaby Kid (Dec 31, 2008 11:56AM)
[quote]
On 2008-12-31 11:55, DDecae wrote:
Do you think the Osterlind stack can be as strong if memorized as the Tamariz stack is? What do you think? I'm willing to memorize the stack I use, but reluctant to memorize another.
[/quote]

You didn't ask me, so my apologies for the unsolicited advice, but the general concensus on stack work is that strength is relative to need. Both the BCS and MS allow for a ribbon spread to show apparent randomness, which is very important to some people working from a stack. The other key thing to consider is that if you're going to be working with cards in a set order, why not have that order be useful to you for different kinds of effects? Mnemonica has a TON of built-in features (poker demos, spelling, Mnemonicosis, etc.), but whether or not these features are important to you is something only you can answer.

Incidentally, The Aronson Stack should also be a part of any discussion where people are discussing prominent stack options. There's also the possibility of just inventing your own.
Message: Posted by: Donnie Buckley (Dec 31, 2008 12:36PM)
Thanks Andrew. I need to read the effects in Juan's book to determine if the poker demos are worth it to me. That's really what I need to know. I primarily use the BCS for mental effects, but Juan has made me consider extending the usefullness of the stack. If I'm going to take the time to memorize a deck, it should be an order that is versatile.
I think I should also read what Osterlind has written about memorizing his stack - I've really LOVED this stack for years.
Message: Posted by: Steven Keyl (Dec 31, 2008 12:46PM)
Anytime mem deck work comes up I'm always amazed at (seemingly) how few people are on board with a tetradistic stack. Most people think of Si Stebbins but there are other stacks out there that are tetradistic and look a lot more random. I use the 30-minute memorized deck from Doug Dyment's Mindsights and it's terrific. Custom mem decks e.g. Aronson or Tamariz do have a lot of built in effects for poker deals and spelling effects but tetradistic stacks have an incredible amount of built-in effects as well due to the nature of the stack.

There are trade-offs to both but I'm always surprised on these forums at disparity between the usage of these different tools.
Message: Posted by: Donnie Buckley (Dec 31, 2008 01:33PM)
OK, I'm intrigued... I just googled Dyment's Mindsights and found his web page. I'm ordering the book. Thanks for the guidance Steven and for word "tetradistic"!
Message: Posted by: Kjellstrom (Dec 31, 2008 11:24PM)
Remember,
its a huge difference between a system stack or a memorized stack.
I think many thinks its the same.

Great info about stacks:

http://www.joyalstack.com/Pages/MemorizedDeck/Main.html
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Jan 1, 2009 11:29AM)
You know, I just have to straighten out a couple of things. I went into the Link suggested above. Please. I'm told that applying MY method would take MONTHS, anyway - weeks - to memorize the order of a stacked deck? Please! There's a chart showing, supposedly, how long it'd take to learn the system of card memory I've taught in a number of my books as compared to the "six-hour" system. That's a joke to me to begin with. Sure, it takes a bit of time to learn the method I teach, but, what this Link doesn't tell you is that once you know my system - you can memorize any stack, a shuffled deck, in MINUTES. Please!! Just had to get this off my chest; feel better now! HL.
Message: Posted by: The Amazing Noobini (Jan 1, 2009 12:30PM)
Do any of you think that this kind of use of a memorized deck weakens subsequent magic effects? It could perhaps seem to the spectators that if you have this ability to memorize a deck in seconds, then your ability to know which card they removed in the next effect is somehow linked to that.

Or will they not retain that line of thinking through a few false shuffles in between?

I realize that the effect itself as proposed in the initial post, is tremendously impressive. I'm not at all opposed to the idea of trying it out myself. I just fear that perhaps you are wasting the power of the open index for later effects.

Myself I used many many months to memorize the Aronson Stack to the point of being able to use it fluidly. But I don't feel that it matters that I could have done it differently. It was right for me and that time is behind me now anyway.

Somehow I suppose I feel that using a memory system to memorize things rapidly and having your own stack that you always work from are two separate (wonderful) things.
Message: Posted by: Dennis Loomis (Jan 2, 2009 07:40AM)
I've never understood the purpose of memorizing the Osterlind Breakthrough Card System. While Osterlind does some real miracles with it, it is really just a tool to allow you to determine the next card or the previous card when you know the identity of one card in the stack. (Usually the top or bottom card.) With a memorized deck you know these two cards and you know them MUCH faster because it's simply recall, not a math based process. But, with a mem-deck you will know the location of every card in the deck. That's why a true memorized deck is a far more powerful tool.

So, if you're going to take the time to memorize a stack, whether it's Aronson, Tamariz, or any of the numerous others, you will have the advantage of being able to use any of the built in effects at any time. Sure, you may not need them or want them all the time, but they are there when you do. The Osterlind System has no built in effects. Sure, you can do many effects with it, but the order of the cards does not allow for built in Poker Deals, spelling effects, etc. And, with a true mem-deck, you can do ANY of the effects possible with the Osterlind stack, but the reverse is not true.

I'm convinced that the two mem-decks with the most usable magic built in, or discovered later are the Aronson and Tamariz stacks. However, you may have some favorite card routines that you do a lot that require a set up. Why not create your own stack, incorporating them into it?

Incidentaly, the ORDER of the cards which Aronson or Tamariz uses is NOT a memorized deck. It becomes a mem deck for you when you memorize it. Many of the built in effects in the Tamariz or Aronson stacks can be performed without having the cards memorized.

Dennis Loomis
Message: Posted by: JanForster (Jan 2, 2009 09:04AM)
Dennis, you are so right, just nothing to add! Just one thought: Why do people invent systems to replace a memorized deck? It takes more time to work out such a system than actually learning any stack! Jan
Message: Posted by: plungerman (Feb 11, 2009 02:13PM)
As for using mneumonic devices for memorizing, I cut to the chase and jut wrote big numbers on the card faces once in ASO. Took a few weeks commuting on the train to get through them and remember them. This is what Aronson suggests in his book; the mneumonic devises will fall away once you have the cards associated with their position. I think this is how Juan has you do it in the first place, and behind a locked door.

I liked Jaun's effects but some are really quite a few faros away from the starting point. In addition his order did not strike me as "random" as the Aronson. Mind you, NDO qualifies as one of many random orders.

P
Message: Posted by: Lawrence O (Mar 21, 2009 03:59PM)
I have the cards, I have the stack but I have no personal train for commuting (and I work very near from home): do you know of another solution? Let's listen to Harry, perhaps.
Message: Posted by: PeterMik (Apr 4, 2009 05:13PM)
Dennis, I did not see your post until now.

I am one of the crazy guys who have memorized Osterlind's BCS for the following reasons:
- I don't like Poker or Bridge effects, so these built-in effects in Tamariz and Aronson are not useful for me
- I don't use the spelling effects, since my language isn't English
- I wanted to be able to do stack routines while I was still not confident on full memorization. In fact, I was not sure if I would ever be able to dedicate the needed time to full memorization, so I wanted to be able to carry the BCS deck with me

It worked pretty well for me. So far I have not regretted.

Posted: Apr 4, 2009 6:14pm
And by the way, I have even found a good way to do Shuffle Bored with the BCS stack. PM me if anybody want instructions.
Message: Posted by: Kjellstrom (Apr 5, 2009 02:17AM)
Did yo know?

Its possible to discover the identity of a card at any position very quick with a [b]Si Stebbins System Stack[/b]: The Rules of Four.
Its four separate formulas to find any card named in the deck.

Very clever and useful, almost like a memorized deck.
You only need to remember a few rules, very easy.
Message: Posted by: Magicmike1949 (Apr 5, 2009 11:32AM)
And what are those rules, Kjellstrom?
Message: Posted by: Kjellstrom (Apr 5, 2009 12:25PM)
[quote]
On 2009-04-05 12:32, Magicmike1949 wrote:
And what are those rules, Kjellstrom?
[/quote]

Sorry - I cant publish secrets on an open forum.
You need to buy a magic book or learn from a magic friend.

You can find the 4 rules in this excellent ebook (7 bucks): http://www.trickshop.com/stebbins.html (includes many powerful routines, sure)
Message: Posted by: moualb (Jun 6, 2009 11:28AM)
When I started to work on memorised deck I found easier to make mental calculations than to remember a whole deck. I discovered one day the Bart Harding stack which allows the calculation of a position given a card and the reverse
(I am not saying that this is the only one or that it is the easier stack that has this feature, but just that it was the first one I met and I work and stick with it)

There are no built-in effects in this stack which I don't mind as I already use some other poker / spelling routines.

I believe that practising mental calculation helps too for many memorised deck routines that precisely use calculation (Aronson's routines, Ortiz's Zen Master) : you know the infamous 'try not to look too contrived when you have to substract 35 from 14' etc...

And Lawrence, lucky you who lives near your work in paris, you could practice just walking to the office because the Harding stack is just about mental calculation (although if your mind is busy doing calculation the odds that you will walk on dog's **** in paris streets will be much higher...)
Message: Posted by: Turk (Jun 6, 2009 01:52PM)
[quote]
On 2009-04-04 18:14, PeterMik wrote:
And by the way, I have even found a good way to do Shuffle Bored with the BCS stack. PM me if anybody want instructions.
[/quote]

Peter,

Is your method particular to the BCS, or, can it be used with any memorized deck? Thakns for the info.

Mike
Message: Posted by: Bobby Forbes (Jun 6, 2009 02:14PM)
Hey fellas. Finally committed fully to a memory system. I chose to go with Harry Lorayne's methods. I've been studying the dominic system for quite a while, a year or so maybe and have had great results with it, but for some of the numbers it just doesn't work for me...AT ALL! So when the numbers get bigger, I start screwing up. That's why I chose to committ to Lorayne's system.

I learned the Tamariz stack pretty much the way it said in the book but the last 15 or 20 cards were giving me a hard time so I decided to use the dominic system to completely learn the stack. It worked but man it was a pain in the arse! It took me a while to fully learn the whole stack.

I tried mnemonics in the past but didn't give it enough time and gave up on it, seemed too complicated. Well, finally gave it some time and learned THE RIGHT WAY and used Lorayne's method. I actually learned another mem deck in 2 days with it!! That's with only a few hours each day off and on. Very easy! He makes everything sooo *** easy to pick up on. Now when I see numbers I automatically start seeing objects, creating stories, etc. It's actually fun to just look at random numbers and see what you come up with.

Just wish I actually took the time to learn the right way years ago. I'm definitely gonna pick up his memory power package to learn his other methods in depth. Awesome stuff guys. Do yourself a favor and check out his stuff on memory..you'll will find you start enjoying remembering stuff and doing memory demonstrations almost as much as doing magic!

Seriously, if your new to memorized decks or memory technique's in general, be smart and learn the right way the first time and save yourself some grief. Contact him here on the Café or go to http://harryloraynemagic.com/

And don't forget about his magic. This guy has come up with more effects, ideas, routines than you could imagine. His entertaining personality reflects in his teaching style on his videos. So watching and learning is always fun too ;) If you wanna do magic, you need to study this man
Message: Posted by: JanForster (Jun 6, 2009 05:08PM)
Bobby, you are right; still I've to point out that you can use Simon Aronson's system (see in "Bound to please") to memorize ANY stack you decide to use or create. Actually that is what I've done 15 years ago to learn the stack. Being German I decided to translate/rework Simon's system in(to) German. The result was and is a system (using my own words) which allows me to learn easily any stack in 4 weeks time spending less than 1 hour the day. And it's true what Michael Close wrote in his "Workers" also that you will forget very soon all the words you were using initially to learn your stack. Concerning speed nothing can beat a truly memorized deck. That allows you to perform quite complex routines in which you have to do calculations anyhow because you've not to calculate anymore the relationship between stack number/card and vice verse. Jan
Message: Posted by: hcs (Jun 8, 2009 06:50AM)
[quote]
On 2008-12-31 13:46, Steven Keyl wrote:
Anytime mem deck work comes up I'm always amazed at (seemingly) how few people are on board with a tetradistic stack. Most people think of Si Stebbins but there are other stacks out there that are tetradistic and look a lot more random. ...[/quote]
I love Si Stebbins and its variants. The Si Stebbins Pro Stack has removed an inherent weakness, the rigid alternation of suit colors and strict suit rotation. The way he has done this is ingenious and will fly by everybody - magicians included. The single rule to remember is so simple that anybody can do it effortlessly. The seemingly random sequence of colors and suits is such that the deck can be spread face up without risk of detection from lay people as well as magicians.
http://www.lybrary.com/si-stebbins-pro-p-4180.html
Message: Posted by: JanForster (Jun 8, 2009 07:05AM)
You are right, the Si Stebbins Pro Stack is very clever and innocent looking. Memorize it and you've a strong weapon. Jan
Message: Posted by: Steven Keyl (Jun 8, 2009 09:10AM)
[quote]
On 2009-06-08 07:50, hcs wrote:

I love Si Stebbins and its variants. The Si Stebbins Pro Stack has removed an inherent weakness, the rigid alternation of suit colors and strict suit rotation. The way he has done this is ingenious and will fly by everybody - magicians included. The single rule to remember is so simple that anybody can do it effortlessly. The seemingly random sequence of colors and suits is such that the deck can be spread face up without risk of detection from lay people as well as magicians.
http://www.lybrary.com/si-stebbins-pro-p-4180.html
[/quote]

If I hadn't already memorized my stack then this is something I'd probably investigate a lot more closely. The thing I do love about the standard Si Stebbins stack is that you can get into it from NDO via Ortiz' setup. Even unmemorized you can do miracles with this stack and working from a new shuffled deck looks even more amazing.
Message: Posted by: hcs (Jun 8, 2009 10:46AM)
It is possible to switch from regular Si Stebbins to Pro Stack. Most Si Stebbins tricks will work unchanged with this new stack.

One can go from NDO to Pro Stack fairly efficiently, the illusion of randomness is excellent and finally there's a crutch to find out the card-position relationship.
Message: Posted by: JanForster (Jun 9, 2009 03:17AM)
As said before better not having "to find out" the card-position relationship - learn (memorize) it... Jan
Message: Posted by: hcs (Jun 9, 2009 03:35AM)
Of course Jan, your statement is absolut correct!

But for some magicians memorized decks have one seemingly disadvantage. they have to be memorized! This is a feature not for everyone.
Message: Posted by: Cohiba (Jun 9, 2009 08:43AM)
[quote]
On 2009-06-09 04:35, hcs wrote:
Of course Jan, your statement is absolut correct!

But for some magicians memorized decks have one seemingly disadvantage. they have to be memorized! This is a feature not for everyone.
[/quote]

It all depends on how you look at it. I'd say:

It's not a disadvantage of the MD, it's a disadvantage of the magician.

In fact, you could argue it's an advantage of the MD, because not everyone will use it!

I choose to look at it in the positive way! ;o)
Message: Posted by: JanForster (Jun 9, 2009 08:49AM)
:) ... yes, Cohiba!!
Message: Posted by: Steven Keyl (Jun 9, 2009 11:45AM)
Hcs,

Is it documented in the .pdf as to how to get into Si Stebbins Pro from both NDO and from Si Stebbins (standard) ?
Message: Posted by: moualb (Jun 10, 2009 09:39AM)
I have noticed that many posters like the possibility of starting from NDO and go into the stack (Si Stebbins or Mnemonica) via faro shuffles.

Does it mean that you often start your magic shows with new decks ? or is it more 'a nice to have just in case' feature ?
Message: Posted by: JuRim (Jun 10, 2009 03:32PM)
Personally I like to mark my deck, reseal it and at special occasitions (big company, special event etc.)I will do my most incredible memo-deck tricks...then ending with the deck being back in NDO - and concluding with the sponge rabbits ;-)
Message: Posted by: Cohiba (Jun 10, 2009 06:40PM)
[quote]
On 2009-06-10 10:39, moualb wrote:
I have noticed that many posters like the possibility of starting from NDO and go into the stack (Si Stebbins or Mnemonica) via faro shuffles.

Does it mean that you often start your magic shows with new decks ? or is it more 'a nice to have just in case' feature ?
[/quote]

Moualb:

I rarely go from NDO to MD order during performance, but it IS nice to have, just in case. The feature about it that I REALLY like is that I can go from MD back to NDO during performance, without them knowing about it. This is a killer ending to a set. Plus, you can easily reset after that ending! ;o)
Message: Posted by: Steven Keyl (Jun 10, 2009 07:22PM)
Moualb:

In my case it's a little different. I generally do MD effects with my own stack (which is a slightly modified QuickStack) which can NOT be shuffled from NDO. I do have several effects that can make use of the Si Stebbins stack which I do not have memorized.

In my environment I generally have a deck in QuickStack order already or I am going to be opening a new pack. In either case, it's nice to know I've got a stack ready to go either way. Actually, I prefer to use my stack since it's memorized. I do not have SS memorized so any effect(s) I do with it can't require me to figure out too many positions/cards at once.
Message: Posted by: hcs (Jun 11, 2009 02:49AM)
[quote]
On 2009-06-09 12:45, Steven Keyl wrote:
Hcs,

Is it documented in the .pdf as to how to get into Si Stebbins Pro from both NDO and from Si Stebbins (standard) ?
[/quote]
Yes it is documented with kindly permission of Mr. Darwin Ortiz.
Into SS in very short instruction. Insiders will still understand this.
Into SSPro in detail.
Message: Posted by: moualb (Jun 11, 2009 05:54AM)
Cohiba , Steven : thanks for the details you gave for your approach.

In my environment (informal amateur performance at the office or at the pub) I always use the deck that is available and never mine.
Message: Posted by: iutennisman (Jun 11, 2009 02:05PM)
I'm still a big fan of Simon Aronson's stack. I've been using it for about 10 years now. I love the way Simon thinks. The first time I learned it, it took about 2 hours of going through the cards, but then you know all 52 cards backwards and forwards. However, sometimes, I have to refresh my memory if I haven't done a stacked trick in a while, which takes a few minutes usually.
Message: Posted by: dannywu (Jan 2, 2015 10:37AM)
I used to use the BCS until I learned the Tamariz stack, memorized decks are more natural when recalling, invest your time and learn a memorized stack, it will pay dividends.