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Topic: What would be your preference?
Message: Posted by: spatlind (Jan 28, 2009 02:37PM)
I'm weighing up a decision between a set of RNT2 Foxy 2.5s, Phoenix 2s and Sisti Copper working cups. From what I can see, apart from aesthetic differences, the Sisti set takes a larger load than the other two and the Phoenix 2s accomodate larger balls on the saddle. Anybody have any recommendations for me from your own experience? Cheers
Scott

(I know, it's not about the cups, it's about me - but leaving that aside :) )
Message: Posted by: Keith Mitchell (Jan 28, 2009 02:43PM)
I have both RNT's SBL Working Pro cups and Mendoza cups, the Mendoza cups has more attic space. Three 1" balls fits great inside the Mendoza cups. The saddles on both these cups work great for three 1" balls.

Hope that helps :)
Message: Posted by: pabloinus (Jan 28, 2009 02:59PM)
I don't have any of these cups, I do have a Foxy II (smaller) and the design of the cups is fantastic, can really fool your eye when you see the final load that these cups can hold. The Foxy 2.5 has the same advantage, they look small and can get a Tennis ball.The nicest of the three.
Sisti's shape is similar to PF, similar to monti, similar to Bazar (my view only, please) so they are not unique, the Phoenix is a variation of the original one, and while maybe better it is not the original one (you can still get the original from Frank and on ebay)
Another option on the same price range is the Mendoza combo (you get a chop in case you want to use it) or non combo.Epiphany is selling one set on satin finish on For sale section

My personal view is that the size of the load is not absolute rather relative to the size of the cup, so a Tennis ball in some cases looks larger than a baseball coming from a larger cup

Let us know which one you decide.
Message: Posted by: Tom Fenton (Jan 28, 2009 03:07PM)
Scott,

The Sisti Cups take the smallest final load.
Both the Foxy 2.5's and the Phoenix II's take tennis balls while the biggest load a Sisti will hold is a lacrosse ball.

I have a set of Sisti cups and a set of Phoenix II's.
I prefer the Phoenix II's, no real reason, I just like the shape of them.

It all depends on what you want to do.
The Foxy 2.5's will make the tennis ball look bigger when it is placed on top of the cup, the Phoenix II's, being bigger, will be more visible from a distance and the Sisti cups will take up less space due to their size and the size of the loads.

Do you know anyone who owns these cups?
If you do, maybe they'd let you have a play with them so that you can 'try before you buy'.

Best of luck with whatever set you get.
Message: Posted by: spatlind (Jan 28, 2009 03:18PM)
Tom, my bad. Of course the Sisti load is the lacrosse ball. Unfortunately, the closest thing anyone has to a "cup" where I am is an aluminium container for making ice! (So I should probably be just using those ;) ) So won't get to test drive any of these.

Madkiki and pabloinus, I have a set of aluminium Mendoza's on the way. I also have a set of Bazar cups, so for sake of variety, maybe I'll look more closely at the Foxy and Phoenix sets.

Thanks guys, keep em coming!
Scott
Message: Posted by: Keith Mitchell (Jan 28, 2009 03:30PM)
I have a set of Foxy 2's Aluminum cups and they will fit a tennis ball, but the saddle is on the flat side. The saddle for the Mendoza and SBL working pros has more of a deep dimple.

Also, have Monti Aluminum these will not take a tennis ball, but will work with 2 1/4 balls.

Wish I could afford the Princess cups or the Foxy 2's copper, but I am broke :(

Have Fun Folks :) :) :)
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Jan 28, 2009 03:35PM)
The Foxy 2's will [b]not[/b] take a tennis balls. The Foxy II.V's take a tennis ball.
Message: Posted by: walid ahumada (Jan 28, 2009 03:56PM)
I would choose the most beautiful shape for my eye, get a picture of each set side by side and pick a cup, any cup that you like...
Message: Posted by: Etienne M. (Jan 29, 2009 07:13AM)
I prefer the foxy II.V. I like the shape of the cup better than the others.

Floyd
Message: Posted by: M for Magic (Jan 29, 2009 08:35AM)
I like the Foxy 2.5. I have an Aluminum set and they have to be the smallest cups possible that will still easily fit a tennis ball. It looks absolutely impossible for the tennis ball to have come from the cup when you display it on top. Also it seems impossible to be able to nest them with 1" balls in the saddle. They are very deceptive and handle well.
Just my 2cents (CND. so actually 1.6 cents USD)
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Jan 29, 2009 12:18PM)
IMHO final load size doesn't matter. I would pick the cups the looks and feels right to you. What one person likes the next doesn't.
Message: Posted by: JamesTong (Jan 29, 2009 12:23PM)
I agree with you, Pete. Beauty lies in the eye of the beholder.
Message: Posted by: kentfgunn (Jan 29, 2009 12:31PM)
I'm with uncle Pete on this. I've never understood "the tennis ball standard" for cups. I think having the largest possible load syndrome. The only people I know that ever focus so much on, "it looks like that ball is too big to have come out of that cup are the guys selling. Quit sweating the marketing drivel and GO ACTUALLY Practice with the stuff you have right now!
Message: Posted by: M for Magic (Jan 29, 2009 02:36PM)
I think in the case of the Foxy 2.5 cups, the final load definitely does have bearing. Reason being the optical illusion of the larger load, in this case a tennis ball, looking much too large to have fit in the cup it just came out of. This can be done with a smaller cup and final load, but when the final load is something that is a common item (like a tennis ball or baseball) that people are used too, know is solid and have a relative idea of it's size, it gives a little more impact. This has nothing to do with marketing, just personal preference and what you feel or find plays well.
That being said, I do prefer my RNT2 PF cups better. They fit my hand better and the final load I use is fake fruit, who's size I find easier to manage. And I think the fruit is more surprising. But the PF cups were not one of the 3 original inquired about by the OP.
There are no absolutes, just opinions and preferences.
Trial and error and all that.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jan 29, 2009 02:51PM)
I have to disagree with those who say that a large load that seems to be too big for the doesn't matter terribly.

I distinclty remember my own eyes popping out more at routines with large loads that appeared from cups, and then being placed on top of the cups. There was a certain way that the cups were removed from the balls that added to it a little to the illusion.

Neither is bad. Both are fine. But the larger load certainly did create extra magic for me.

But everyone's mileage will vary on things like this, I suppose.
Message: Posted by: Epiphany (Jan 29, 2009 03:02PM)
Load size is a prime number in the equation of of how big your saddle will be on a cup and wether you will be able to do a 3 ball stack with the cups. Cups are designed from the inside out. There are many aspect of the final load that affect the entire design of a cup.

It's not marketing drivel, it's engineering drivel and customer input on ball sizes and what they wanted to be able to use and do with the cups. If you were to follow Mr. Gunn's drivel everyone would still be using Paul Fox size cups today.

Epiphany
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Jan 29, 2009 03:39PM)
Look, here's another thing to consider regarding tennis balls, baseballs, etc.

How to you load and palm them? If you use a pouch, maybe OK if you can misdirect well. Most guys I see can't.

And how much do you FUMBLE to get a big load out of your pocket?

I won't repeat it here, but Ken Brooke showed Ricky Jay and I how you can get an incredible reaction even with small lemons.

It's not the size, but the CHANGE he taught.
Message: Posted by: M for Magic (Jan 29, 2009 03:41PM)
Hey!
You sold me my Paul Fox cups :)
Message: Posted by: Epiphany (Jan 29, 2009 04:06PM)
Mr. Biro,

absolutely correct. But given the needs of performers that need to stack (3) 1 1/8 balls on the saddle for a routine a common demoninator has to be used. Why a tennis ball? Simply put, it's available. A tennis ball size load was a common request obviously given Porper cups and so on, or even bigger given Gazzo size cups. Base the cup shape/design on a baseball and you would end up with a street size cup, ie Gazzo or even your Gali cups.

My contentions here are that the cups load is not marketing drivel but an engineering issue to give performers the specs that they need in a cup. Because a cup holds a tennis ball does not mean a tennis ball is all that can be used, you can load a lemon, lime etc.

Epiphany
Message: Posted by: Dave V (Jan 29, 2009 04:54PM)
[quote]
On 2009-01-29 17:06, Epiphany wrote:
My contentions here are that the cups load is not marketing drivel but an engineering issue to give performers the specs that they need in a cup. [/quote]
Precisely. It's hard to visualize load capacity from pictures or numbers alone. It's easier for buyers to relate to "baseball size" or "tennis ball size" or even "golf ball size." This also gives us a ready supply of practice loads that won't rot or spoil.
Message: Posted by: Keith Mitchell (Jan 29, 2009 06:50PM)
I remember seeing Gazzo with large loads in his cups then ends up with a Mellon from his Hat, therefore large loads does seem to work for his street routine.
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Jan 29, 2009 07:21PM)
I agree with Pete. I'm recently downsized my cups from Animal (baseball) cups to Sherwood (tennisball) cups even for my outdoor shows or large shows. Tennis ball size loads are big enough, easier to carry, etc.

I still love the Animal cups and may keep one set just in case I change my mind for certain shows but I'm Sher that the Sherwoods are here to stay.
Message: Posted by: Levity (Jan 29, 2009 07:40PM)
[quote]
On 2009-01-29 16:39, Pete Biro wrote:
Look, here's another thing to consider regarding tennis balls, baseballs, etc.

How to you load and palm them? If you use a pouch, maybe OK if you can misdirect well. Most guys I see can't.

And how much do you FUMBLE to get a big load out of your pocket?

I won't repeat it here, but Ken Brooke showed Ricky Jay and I how you can get an incredible reaction even with small lemons.

It's not the size, but the CHANGE he taught.
[/quote]

Amen, Mr. Biro.

Geoffrey
Message: Posted by: Epiphany (Jan 29, 2009 07:54PM)
Dad had planned on a "slugger" cup line that took baseballs. But he kept saying he couldn't justify a cup that size for closeup, only street or large venues.

I think the "Tennis" ball ratio is a fair medium to compare to as it leaves a variety of sizes allowed based on performer. The "Saddle" of the cup in conjunction with the flow of the cups wall is what makes the illusion of any size load look big.

But big isn't always the kicker as Mr. Biro said. Most are not expecting fruit, veggies, chicks, hampsters or even goats to pop out of cups as the end. Just kidding about the goats, unless of course you have those huge Auke cups or my fathers old stage set.

Epiphany
Message: Posted by: MickeyPainless (Jan 29, 2009 08:26PM)
Pip,

I wanna do pot belly pig loads!

BTW, I can't put those little jewels ya sent me down! I LOVE em girl, ya done muy bueno!

Mick
Message: Posted by: Epiphany (Jan 29, 2009 08:34PM)
Mick,
from what dad says, those Auke cups are huge and just might handle that load :lol:

I'm glad you're pleased with the cups, but please put them down before trying to drive or working on horses :)

Epiphany
Message: Posted by: Keith Mitchell (Jan 29, 2009 09:19PM)
Pete is right about fumbling to get a tennis ball out of a jacket pocket, and I am convinced to go with something smaller but surprisingly different from the working balls.

To Epiphany and others, I have never seen giant cups being used, so I can't imagine how it would be possible to pick up the cups with one hand or hide the loads. I have only been with C&Bs for about a year and therefore have never seen anyone use anything bigger than a regular size cup(s).
Message: Posted by: Epiphany (Jan 29, 2009 09:34PM)
Dad did human load in his stage size trash can cups. It was all done with blackart. As to Auke's cups, a forklift is needed from what dad has said about his giant stainless steel cups.

I usually use lemons or limes for final loads. Some times depending on the set I'm using I use foam stress toys.
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Jan 29, 2009 09:43PM)
Dean Dill has an Auke jumbo cup and I think I came close to a Hernia trying to pick one up.
Message: Posted by: MickeyPainless (Jan 29, 2009 10:05PM)
***but please put them down before trying to drive or working on horses***

Ahhhhhhhh but with these bad mamajamas in the bag it's 21 oz. of stout copper and with one little *BONK* on Triggers noggin and I'll save a fortune on sedation!
ATTENTION all PETA types, I'm frikkin KIDDING!

As for driving.... I only do card sleights while driving! ;)

Mick
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Jan 29, 2009 11:23PM)
Those Monster Cups that Auke makes are really neat to have, but a pain to perform with. I demonstrated them at a Texas Magic Collectors meeting in Fort Worth shortly after I got them.

I brought out the stack of three and placed them mouth upwards on the table. I demonstrated that the cups could be nested with a tennis ball between the cups.

Then I produced a final load -- a five inch tennis ball!

Just so nobody will go nuts figuring it out, look in the Alex Elmsley books. It's the same thing he does for the salt load.

I have to use both hands to lift a cup without dropping it. Auke can handle them like teacups.
Message: Posted by: Keith Mitchell (Jan 29, 2009 11:52PM)
When are you guys going to put this stuff on YouTube? I wanna watch... :) :0 :)
Message: Posted by: Mr. Muggle (Jan 30, 2009 12:02AM)
[quote]
On 2009-01-29 16:02, Epiphany wrote:
It's not marketing drivel, it's engineering drivel and customer input on ball sizes and what they wanted to be able to use and do with the cups. If you were to follow Mr. Gunn's drivel everyone would still be using Paul Fox size cups today.[/quote]

Last I recall, RNT2 has sold a vast number of Paul Fox cups :cups:

It frankly doesn't matter who's drivel it is; whether its a magician who's proven to use his props and publish a grand routine, a company's marketing technique, or an engineers justification for one unknown reason or another; Kent's right - most magicians aren't looking for a true tennis ball size load. Why? The load is to large for most magicians hands. In over twenty years of magic I've found that most magicians who perform the cups don't handle one and one-eighth inch balls anyway; the long time standard has historically been three quarter to one inch balls. Sure times and cups have changed but it will take more than a few years to force evolution of the human hand - even for magicians!

Like others before me, I agree with Pete as he is wise. Personally, I've always tried to use the largest cup I could handle without incident regardless of the size of my final load I planned to use. To do otherwise is putting the cart before the horse. In my opinion, large hands that use small cups and/or small hands that use oversize cups detract from the performance setting and takes away from the magic. In addition, for some magicians, improper cup size also limits and/or prevents the magician from performing a number of moves and sleights. The best bet is to experiment and find what cup fits you best and then use it without focusing on final load size; but I digress.

Back to spatlind's original question at hand. If you have the desire to use one and one eight inch balls your limited to the less tapered and irregular shaped Phoenix II Cups. If your going to use one inch or less balls, the Foxy 2.5's have a slightly wider diameter and taller saddle compared to the Sisti cups but hold a smaller final load. For myself, the Sisti cups have the most appealing look to them of the three and fit my hands well, as such, they would be my recommendation.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Jan 30, 2009 01:09AM)
[quote]
the Foxy 2.5's have a slightly wider diameter and taller saddle compared to the Sisti cups but hold a smaller final load.
[/quote]
[b]Wrong!!![/b]

The Foxy 2.5's will hold a tennis ball. The Sisti cups will not. They will hold a lacrosse ball, which is smaller.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Muggle (Jan 30, 2009 01:12AM)
I stand corrected on the ball size; thanks Bill.
Message: Posted by: Philp (Feb 14, 2009 07:05AM)
If a tennis ball is really needed for the routine do not dismiss the Sisti Cups.

Let me explain: I recently purchased a bag of 20 'value' tennis balls from a major toy store. In my opinion the balls would be of limited use for tennis but it is possible to find 3-4 balls out of the bag that do fit my RNT2 Sisti Cups as final loads - just. The balls look exactly like a tennis ball with the now common bright yellow finish. I have measured the balls' diameters at 2 inches and 7 sixteenths.

Hope this helps,

Regards,

Philip
Message: Posted by: bkp007 (Aug 22, 2009 10:43PM)
For the longest time I had no interest in producing large loads, i.e. oranges or tennis balls. To me it was all about the look and feel of the cup.

So, I got a set a paul faux cups, that take a lacrosse ball. (If you are reading this with disappointment because I didn't get a "better" set of cups feel free to give me your nice expensive RNT cups). Right now, I just can't afford expensive cups. One day...

But after looking and looking for red lacrosse balls (that I didn't have to order over the internet and pay double price for shipping) I got very annoyed. Most stores don't carry lacrosse balls, much less red ones.

The problem, for me, at least, is availability. I want a set of Foxy 2.5's just so I can have a small looking cup that takes a load (tennis ball) that is easy to find. I do agree the foxy 2.5s look deceptive, but then again, how important is the deception there?

I mean, obviously the ball can fit in the cup, and the spectator knows it, because they saw it come out from the cup. While it is impressive that a large load could "appear" under the cup, in the end I think the spectator is more impressed with the fact that the large balls appeared, not so much that they can't fit back under the cups. Whether the load fills the cup completely or not, the important part is the surprise of the final load. Granted, a grape as a final load won't be good, but to me, and apparently pete biro, ricky jay and other great magicians, the final loads don't have to always be huge.

I think the aluminum foxy 2.5's with small tennis balls, and regular tennis balls as final loads would make a great looking routine.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Aug 22, 2009 11:59PM)
To find a set of red lacrosse balls that will actually fit your cups may be problematic. There is enough variation in those cups and in lacrosse balls that there is a chance that you won't be able to get all three of them to take a lacrosse ball of any color.

If you want to use lacrosse balls (and there really is no reason to be fixated on lacrosse balls), get a set of Monti cups.

Check this thread http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=304169&forum=115

This post http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/search_post.php?topic=296196&forum=115&post=5966044

And this post http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/search_post.php?topic=296196&forum=115&post=5965435

My suggestion would be three fold
1) Take your cups to the nearest sporting goods store that carries lacrosse balls -- probably one in either Texarkana or Dallas -- and see what they have that fits.

2) Take your cups to a toy store and see what they have that fits.

3) Come to the TAOM convention in Houston Sept 4 - 7, bring your cups, and I will have a whole bunch of lacrosse balls you can try out.

Normally, to purchase three red lacrosse balls you would have to buy three packages of colored lacrosse balls, and they might not fit. Red is not one of the normal colors. They exist, but the ones that are legal for play are white, yellow. lime green or orange.

The rules of lacrosse state the following:

SECTION 16. The ball shall be white, yellow, orange or lime green
smooth or slightly textured solid rubber between 7-3/4 and 8 inches in
circumference*, between 5 and 5-1/4 ounces in weight and, when dropped
from a height of 72 inches upon a concrete floor, shall bounce 43 to 51
inches at a temperature of 65 degrees to 70 degrees Fahrenheit.

*These would be 2.47 inches and 2.54 inches in diameter, respectively.

I also have some in dark blue and other colors, but they are not easy to find at sporting goods stores.
Message: Posted by: gaddy (Aug 23, 2009 02:34AM)
[quote]
On 2009-01-29 19:50, madkiki wrote:
I remember seeing Gazzo with large loads in his cups then ends up with a Mellon from his Hat, therefore large loads does seem to work for his street routine.
[/quote]

That's mostly because of the requirements of his performing environment. Your mileage may vary.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Aug 23, 2009 12:12PM)
There are a number of considerations when looking at "attic space."

One is the height of the space, that is, the difference between the top of one cup and the inside of the top of the one that is placed on top of it. This will tell you the maximum size of ball that can be used in performing with a particular cup -- assuming that you perform a routine that involves nesting the cups with a ball between them. The skirt length is a rough indicator of this. The Bazar di Magia cups will accept the largest ball between them.

A second is the size of the saddle. This determines the diameter of the ball that can be used in a three ball display on top of the cups. However, this must also take into account the shape of the cup. A rounded top cup will allow for a larger diameter ball to be used in a three ball display than a traditional straight-sided cup with the same saddle.

A third factor is the radius of the curvature of the rounded top cup. A cup with a greater radius of curvature will allow for a larger ball in a three ball display.

One other factor is the shape of the saddle. This doesn't determine so much the size of the ball that can be used in the routine, but the way the balls appear on top of the inverted cup. The least practical of these from an aesthetic point of view is the flat saddle. A rounded saddle automatically centers the ball. A flat saddle does not.

The saddle should not be so deep as to obscure the view of the ball, though. It needs to be deep enough to center the ball, but not much more than that. Compare a P&L cup to a Pete Biro Johnny Paul cup. In my opinion, the Pete Biro design is superior to the P&L design, because the saddle on the Pete Biro cup is shallower, and displays the single ball much more effectively. But it is not so shallow as to allow a ball to roll off it easily.