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Topic: beginners code
Message: Posted by: Rockyzmagic (Oct 4, 2001 07:08AM)
Howdy, when us newbies make up a trick, how do we go about getting recognition for it? Also, How do you find out if its already been done?



I have what I call "exploding coins". But its so easy and cool , someone must have thought of it before. (lol)



I also have a new rubber band trick, how do I find out if it has been done b4 with out telling everyone the secret move(s)......(lol)



How do you know how much to charge for a trick? I have my first gig next month as a house magician at a pizza cafe, (gotta start somewhere, lol) wish me luck folks



magically yours,...Rocky

peace
Message: Posted by: Steve Brooks (Oct 4, 2001 02:57PM)
Hello Rocky,

you ask many questions, most of which will take you time and experience to learn. :)



It might help us a little if we knew a little bit about your magical background.

How long have you been studying the art?

Which books, if any, do you own?

Are there other magicians in your area that you can get together with, if so, do you?



Get back to us, and we will do our best to point you in the right direction! :nod:
Message: Posted by: Doctor B (Oct 5, 2001 06:13AM)
When developing your act, avoid presenting the equipment you have purchased in the manner in which the manufacturer suggests. The only effect that I have ever been unable to improve upon the suggested routine is Mike Cavenyís Linking Coat Hangers.



Try to use your purchases as props to create a routine in which one prop flows into another.

For example, use the newspaper from Neil Fosterís Center Tear as the wrap for the parasol in performance of the Mutilated Parasol.

Later a page from the same newspaper can be used to perform Clippo.



The idea is to create something that is "YOU" and set you and your props apart from other magicians.
Message: Posted by: Seanamon (Oct 5, 2001 01:52PM)
My advice would be to go slowly and with caution, there are many "new" effects that are not new at all and bear close if not exact reference to other effects you may have never heard of.



If you are a part of an area where there is a magic club, you might politely ask some of the members who have been involved in magic for many years. Every club seems to have that wise old conjurer who has seen it all done it all, and now his joy is not in learning anything new, but in fellowship and encouraging the younger ones. Arthur Emerson (of Color Monte fame) was that person to me when I was in IBM Ring 15.



If you do not know anyone in your area, my advice would be to sit tight on your effect, tighten it up, use it in the real world and develop it before ever thinking about marketing it. You could learn a lot from doing this, what people like and why about your effect. Test it under fire, modify it where you need, and above all, have fun with it.



What else? Well, the Internet is a wonderful place to get to know other magicians! I have met a few and even had a "mentor" (God Bless OldeRabbit :smiletear: ) at one time. As you get to know others (and it takes time) youíll find a few who you might in confidence share your effect with. They will give you an honest assesment on this (hopefully) and you can take it from there.



Have fun and stay creative. If we ever meet at a conference, Iíd like to see the "Exploding Coins". Just remind me to wear a hardhat!



Best,



Sean :wavey:
Message: Posted by: Michael Peterson (Oct 5, 2001 10:19PM)
It really is sad that Olde Rabbit is no longer with us :pout: You would have loved him Rocky! You do however have a lot of great people here to help you out.



Remember to always ask questions if your not sure, it will help your magic like you wouldnít believe. If it wasnít for a couple good friends of mine(our happy moderators Steve Brooks & Steve Landavazo)& Olde Rabbit helping me & answering questions when I first started, I would be no where close to where I am.



A man who asks, is a fool for five minutes.

A man who never asks, is a fool for life.



Good luck Rocky,

Ichazod



:dance:
Message: Posted by: Rockyzmagic (Oct 7, 2001 08:09AM)
Howdy, thanks for the replies, let me reword some of my last questions,,, how do YOU, and newbies, get recognition for a new trick? I was told at my local magic shop... write a book. Ha, how do I find out if itís been done before???? Research... to answer my own question. But did I answer right? lol How do you know how much to sell a trick for?? If its a killer...$15 20?? If easy..$4.99???? lol These are not questions to be answered in time.. NOW is the time. I hope the answers will help all of us with imagi(c)nation,, mffm magically yours...Rocky peace :angel:
Message: Posted by: Steve Brooks (Oct 7, 2001 10:38PM)
Rocky,

I am so happy that you are very enthusiastic about your magic, that's a good thing.



However, being a newbie tells me that you still have some reading and research ahead of you. ;)



Also, a little patience goes a looong way in magic creation, especially when asking others for advice.



I will tell you that pricing an effect has NOTHING to do with how good or bad the effect is, there are many factors to consider, which go beyond the scope of this forum.



Another important item to consider, get a good proof reader when you write your directions, many folks will judge you on your writing skills at times, and you know what they say about first impressions?

:wavey:
Message: Posted by: Burt Yaroch (Oct 15, 2001 08:03PM)
Not being a professional magician might give me a unique perspective on the whole trick "claiming" race.



I completely understand that those of you who make your living developing and marketing effects have to remain competitively guarded with regards to your ideas. But I donít think it should come at the price of detracting from the art which we all love.



Very rarely do I come to the end of a video without my tutor whining somewhere that someone stole his trick or "these are the proper credits". This has definitely been the ugliest part of magic for me. Seeing adults, magic professionals who I aspire to be like, bickering like children over whose name should be attached to a sleight.



(Stepping off my soap box...)My advice, aspire to be more than Rocky of "This is MY exploding coin trick" fame and you wonít need to worry about immortalizing yourself. Your fans, your peers, those who love your craft, we will do it for you.



I donít think George Washington carved Mt. Rushmore. :)
Message: Posted by: Steve Brooks (Oct 15, 2001 11:03PM)
"My advice, aspire to be more than Rocky of "This is MY exploding coin trick" fame and you wont need to worry about immortalizing yourself. Your fans, your peers, those who love your craft, we will do it for you."-yakandjak



That is some great advice, I couldn't agree more!



:nod:
Message: Posted by: Tom Cutts (Oct 16, 2001 08:09AM)
Jakandjak,



Not exactly.



See, while you (they) are applauding Kohler's "Aces in Their Faces", Daryl's Ambitious Card, and Ammar's Card on Ceiling; I will be applauding the originators of the effects with a nod toward those who have finessed or popularized them.



Those that most magicians see as the "creators" of the art are not. They are the performers of it and should be duly applauded for it. But the magic populace has proven time and time again that they lack the ability or desire to search out the history of an effect or routine.



The lessons learned in knowing the genesis of an effect are the details that create an art.



When we turn our backs on the history of the art, including accurate crediting, we turn our backs on the art.



Tom Cutts
Message: Posted by: Scott F. Guinn (Oct 16, 2001 07:26PM)
Amen! Preach, Brother Tom, PREACH!
Message: Posted by: J R Thomas (Oct 26, 2001 10:15AM)
Bravo Tom. We all stand on the shoudlers of giants. Has the UFO ever heard of Bob Hummer? One wonders.



I work in a magic store on the weekends. There was this one kid who would come in with a new card sleight every few months. I loved his enthusiasm. His new sleights had been develped years before by others. He did not originate it or popularize it. He just found it out for himself working alone.



He would share his creation and then ask for comments. Usually someone would be able to cite a source. Some times we could not. It became a game.



IF you develop something and use it no harm done. Use it in performances. If you do choose to profit from something by selling the effect then do your homework. Make sure it has passed the test of performance time. If you donít, youíll end up losing money.



Part of the homework is showing someone your effect and having them comment on it. Having said that would you mind decsribing what the effect "Exploding Coins" is? I am not looking for an explanation of how it is done, rather what is done.



JR







_________________

Those

who hear not

the music



Think

the dancers

mad
Message: Posted by: Peter Marucci (Nov 4, 2001 03:04AM)
Rocky,

There are many ways to publish an effect so that you will get the credit -- maybe.

Right here is one; there are a number of e-zines; print magazines like the Linking Ring (but, then, I'm biased!) and MUM are always looking for material.

But, even so, someone else will almost certainly claim it! :rotf:

Or someone else will claim it's yours. Case in point: Doc Eason's All Screwed Up is his signature piece; but it originally appeared in Genii magazine about 40 years ago as a trick by Gary Frigs. Even Doc has pointed this out but many, many insist that it is Doc's original invention (he did come up with a lot of the patter).

Or the Professor's Nightmare. It was originated by Bob Carver, based on a Hen Fetsch idea. The original patter was written by Gene Gordon. This trick has the dubious distinction of being possibly the most ripped-off effect in magic.

And very few people today know Bob Carver invented it.

I have been writing the Showtime column in the Linking Ring magazine for more than 10 years. And I know that many of my routines, etc. have been ripped off by performers, dealers, etc.

The secret is to come up with more!



Years ago, English poet Rudyard Kipling wrote:



"They stole all they could follow,

"But they couldn't steal my mind,

"And I left them sweating and straining

"A mile and a half behind."



As to how to find out if a move, etc. has been done before, don't worry about it. No matter what you do, dozens of people will claim it is theirs! :rotf:



(On second thought, let's ignore that laughing smiley face; that comment is, unfortunately, not a joke!)

cheers,

Peter Marucci

showtimecol@aol.com
Message: Posted by: Tom Cutts (Nov 4, 2001 10:34AM)
I'm confused, Peter. No big surprise there :lol:



Elsewhere you have stated that you claim no rights to the material you publish. Folks are free to do with it as they please.



Yet you feel ripped off. Can you shed some light this way?



Glad we're not so far apart.
Message: Posted by: Peter Marucci (Nov 4, 2001 02:45PM)
Sure; the stuff that I publish is free and gratis to the INDIVIDUAL magic community for their own, personal use.

That is, if I write a routine in a column that you like, feel free to use it.

But DON'T feel free to market it under your own name, without even mentioning me.

And don't feel free to peddle it in a magic shop, without at least asking me first.

I don't feel ripped off if someone uses it in their own performance, be it for friends and family or on national television.

After all, that's why I do it.

And I don't believe I ever said I had "no rights" to the stuff I originate.

I do; if I choose to give it away, as I do with much of my material, that's fine.

But just because I give away MOST of it, does not mean that anyone has the right to use ALL of it (just because they have seen it).

Hope this clears things up (although, re-reading the post, I fear it might even make things more confusing! :rotf: )

Basically, I'm not the stickler that many are for their "rights" to material that they claim to originate (they didn't; they improved on something that went before).

As some kind soul said on another board, "If you steal a routine of Marucci's, he'll just come up with ten more."

cheers,

Peter Marucci

showtimecol@aol.com
Message: Posted by: Tom Cutts (Nov 5, 2001 02:47PM)
Caught in the ambiguities of polite and honest shades of grey.



I see now.
Message: Posted by: Seanamon (Nov 16, 2001 04:51AM)
Here's one for everyone,



I am all for crediting people when I know who to credit, but HOW do you know for sure who did what? Sometimes those credits are in dispute among magicians, and inventors themselves.



Other times a magician comes up with a handling independantly of someone else that predated that person.



Is there any way to tell *objectively* who developed what sleight?



I look at sleights as tools, which when put together help me to communicate something in the performance that I do. Many tools are particularly useful. A double lift is useful, but I don't know who invented it.



Do magicians copyright their sleights and routines? How do we establish fact when it comes to the origin of something, to the point where they can claim exclusivity to it?



I'll tell you what I do. I credit the source where I learned it from. Their source may be farther back that I know, and what's more, if anyone were to dispute me, I would simply let them and accept their claims humbly. There's so much that I don't know.



Sean
Message: Posted by: Alan Wheeler (Apr 14, 2002 02:32AM)
This discussion has answered a lot of questions I had. I thank all of you very much. I can understand the distinction between using things for performance and actually trying to market things. Even in music, if two people came up with similar songs, no one would care unless both were trying to market them. In music, too, after so long things become "public domain," I guess the way the double lift has in magic.

I feel that I, at least, have a little better feel for what is right and wrong in magic, and what it will take to know the truth more accurately. :snail:
Thanks.
--alan
Message: Posted by: N14 (Apr 14, 2002 08:34PM)
Hi all,

I'm just wondering........,

Isn't there some kind of patent you can get when you come up with a new trick??

Like a place where they store all the tricks and the names of the ones creating it (or getting the patent first)?

On a global level I mean.
Lke a huge database of magic.

If there isn't, wouldn't it be a good idea to create one? Or can you get a patent at the same place where the inventor of device X would be able to get one? And if you would be able to register your trick there, do most of the magicians do this??

I'm just wondering......... :hmm:
Message: Posted by: Daniel Meadows (Apr 19, 2002 06:12AM)
Hi N14,
I do believe that you can get a patent for a magic effect but it takes a lot of time and a lot of effort(and money). If I am not mistaken Gaetan Bloom's Intercessor gimmick is patented and each one has a serial number; this may account for the higher price,(that and the fact a higher price will fend off the casually curious).

A harder task is to patent intellectual property because how can you safe-guard an idea (don't show it to anyone)? Even then if someone subsequently stumbles across it and puts the effect into print, then you have no claim that it was yours, and now no intellectual property!

If someone puts an idea into print rightly or wrongly it becomes theirs, even if someone else had the same idea. This is an awkward area where only decency and honesty guide people: the down side? Some people lack both.
Message: Posted by: N14 (Apr 19, 2002 07:24AM)
Thanks for your reply Neil
Message: Posted by: Rockyzmagic (Apr 19, 2002 11:21AM)
Howdy brats, thank you all very, very much for helping me out. I started this and I see it's helped others, neat, mffm (magic forever, forever magic) take care and God bless.
Rocky Rivers