(Close Window)
Topic: Darwin Ortiz, casino experience?
Message: Posted by: ImpromptuBoy (Nov 6, 2009 01:34PM)
Hi everyone.
I'm personally, a big fan of Darwin Ortiz, but pardon me if I'm unaware, but is there a source that mentions Darwin Ortiz's casino experience? Does he even have dealing experience, since he's a casino consultant? Just gets me wondering, how does one become a casino consultant without having any experience in the industry.

Michael
Message: Posted by: MickeyPainless (Nov 6, 2009 03:31PM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-06 14:34, ImpromptuBoy wrote:

how does one become a casino consultant without having any experience in the industry.

Michael
[/quote]

Monster chops and a long line of bull? ;)

Actually I'd be interested myself! Not so much about the how too of becoming a consultant but what Darwin's back round is! The man does have the monster chops fersure fersure!
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 6, 2009 04:50PM)
Harry taught him everything he knows.
Message: Posted by: MickeyPainless (Nov 6, 2009 06:00PM)
Anderson? ;)
Message: Posted by: ImpromptuBoy (Nov 6, 2009 11:35PM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-06 17:50, tommy wrote:
Harry taught him everything he knows.
[/quote]

I'm assuming Lorayne, cause darwin attended the school of memory in new york, or something along those lines.. :P
Message: Posted by: Alan M (Nov 7, 2009 12:12AM)
Darwin was a teacher in Harry's memory course.
Message: Posted by: iamslow (Nov 7, 2009 06:06AM)
YOu have to learn the games and be able to deal the games better than the dealers themselves... I believe Darwin did some consulting, but as far as repeat business, that was another story...
Message: Posted by: The Dowser (Nov 7, 2009 10:26AM)
There is no one consulting who deals the games better than a good or even average dealer that is still working on the table eight hours a day.
Message: Posted by: ASW (Nov 8, 2009 01:38AM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-06 14:34, ImpromptuBoy wrote:
Just gets me wondering, how does one become a casino consultant without having any experience in the industry.

Michael
[/quote]

Hi Michael,

Darwin is a pal of mine so I know he won't mind me answering this.

You don't need to have been a dealer to consult on game protection. You just need to know how games need to be protected. You can get that knowledge from a number of sources. This can include any one or a combination of the following: having experience as a player, experience as a surveillance operative, experience in gaming law enforcement, experience taking off games, experience gained via contact with pro hustlers, gamblers and enforcers.

Darwin was a pro card counter in the 70s and has developed numerous industry contacts and contacts with many scufflers and advantage players.

The idea that you need to have dealt a game in a casino to consult breaks down when you consider that many of the guys who consult who have dealt games only dealt a handful of the games (if more than one) and wouldn't have dealt every single variation that has arisen at one time or another. I know consultants who have dealt BJ but not much else, or who have managed poker rooms but maybe not dealt Baccarat or Craps. But they have accumulated vast knowledge from interacting and observing. Let's not forget some of the guys who could best advise you on how to protect a game have NEVER worked an honest day in their life. In a casino or anywhere else. But they sure know how to take off a game or two. I am sure, however that dealing a game would give you tremendous insights into the reality of life for dealers. It's a crap job - a factory floor job. And that's how collusions and conspiracies get a foothold. But I digress.

You can see Darwin's client list here:

http://www.darwinortiz.com/protection-clients.php

Best,

Andrew
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 8, 2009 04:38AM)
Realistically you need casino experience.
Message: Posted by: tenchu (Nov 8, 2009 12:02PM)
After watching and reading probably everything that Mr Ortiz released I have absolutely no doubts that this man know's what's up.
Message: Posted by: kcg5 (Nov 8, 2009 01:38PM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-07 07:06, iamslow wrote:
YOu have to learn the games and be able to deal the games better than the dealers themselves... I believe Darwin did some consulting, but as far as repeat business, that was another story...
[/quote]

Not so sure about that first statement..
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 8, 2009 02:08PM)
You can take training get qualified, There are many places you get this sort of stuff:

Who We Are and What We Do

We provide consulting services for casinos and

training for surveillance, security, gaming regulation

and casino operations personnel.

Be sure to view our

consulting and training packages.

Open Enrollment Surveillance and Security Training

Our Publications are now available as a

textbook

as well as

individual articles


Hang on though. Why should we be helping you catch us? :)
Message: Posted by: ASW (Nov 8, 2009 02:59PM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-08 05:38, tommy wrote:
Realistically you need casino experience.
[/quote]

I think it would be useful for people of lesser talent, knowledge and no contacts, who were unable to comprehend the way a casino works.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 8, 2009 04:42PM)
Like you and Ortiz you mean? :)
Message: Posted by: ASW (Nov 9, 2009 01:00AM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-08 17:42, tommy wrote:
Like you and Ortiz you mean? :)
[/quote]

Amusing.

I have never worked as a consultant. I have never said I worked as a consultant. I have never had any desire to work as a consultant. I do know a few, however, and while it might assist to have worked as a dealer, it is by no means necessary. Just as it is by no means necessary to have worked as a scuffler to be able to advise on game protection. If you have the knowledge, you have the knowledge.

Darwin Ortiz's client list speaks for itself, regardless of any snarky comments from magic forum members.

Andrew
Message: Posted by: iamslow (Nov 11, 2009 10:14AM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-09 02:00, ASW wrote:
[quote]
On 2009-11-08 17:42, tommy wrote:
Like you and Ortiz you mean? :)
[/quote]

Amusing.

I have never worked as a consultant. I have never said I worked as a consultant. I have never had any desire to work as a consultant. I do know a few, however, and while it might assist to have worked as a dealer, it is by no means necessary. Just as it is by no means necessary to have worked as a scuffler to be able to advise on game protection. If you have the knowledge, you have the knowledge.


Andrew
[/quote]
:applause:




j
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 11, 2009 01:25PM)
:bunny:

[quote]

When described by others, you seem to hold the titles of "casino expert" and "game protection specialist." Who is Steve Forte and what makes you uniquely qualified to be an expert in game protection?


I would say that Steve Forte is dedicated student of the game protection field and one who has spent the greater part of my life actively researching the topic from every conceivable angle. If I have any unique qualifications to offer, it might be that I have experienced the business from so many different perspectives ... most notable would include many years working in the business, many years beating the games as a high-stakes professional player, and many years traveling around the world as a consultant specializing in game protection.

http://www.dicedealer.com/steve_forte.htm


[/quote]
Message: Posted by: ASW (Nov 11, 2009 03:22PM)
All true and Steve Forte is a truly knowledgeable and skilled operator. The man is astonishing.

But it doesn't negate the qualifications of other guys whose experience might be different. It's like saying Chuck Yeager wasn't a real pilot because he didn't fly passenger liners.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Nov 12, 2009 07:30AM)
Within the casino industry itself you will find people in management positions, surveillance, etc.. who've never dealt a game in their lives. I work with a guy who was such a nightmare as a dealer they had to move him up to a floor position, he was that bad. Promoting incompetence happens in every business, gaming is no exception. In fact I know surveillance directors who've never dealt. These people who work in the eye are often paid to attend dealing school to "learn the games" and that is the extent of their experience in table games. It is one thing to know the payouts, moves, keys, check cutting, etc... But get thrown on a jam-up crap game with checks flying at you from every direction (all late of course), 8 players to a side, 7 colors on the layout, and the newbie will get eaten alive. And when there's a beef it's been my experience that it's always solved right then and there in the dice pit, surveillance is useless at that point.

Blackjack is such an easy game to deal and observe, so no real prob there. Forte told me in his management days when they were short in the 21 pits they'd take a few of the girls working in the cage, go over the 21 dealing procedures with them, and have them dealing on live games within an hour or so. Anyone can do it.

Now when you get into this issue of "consulting" it's a bit mirky. Arguably one of the best consultants there ever was was this old-timer who never dealt or worked in the pit, because he couldn't! An old-school crossroader who worked in crews playing paint, coolers, card switching, gaffed dice, slot jackpots, you name it. After a stint in jail for busting slots he took a job walking the catwalks, got close to a few casino owners, and then turned to working as a consultant on security-related issues. Now there's a guy who knows a thing or two about beating the store from the outside.

Ultimately I think it comes down to personality and self-promotion. I will say, though, that if you want your client base to be casinos it helps to be able to have worked in their business, it will only get you respect. You can never know too much.
Message: Posted by: Bret Maverick (Nov 12, 2009 04:14PM)
[quote] By Z: Now when you get into this issue of "consulting" it's a bit murky. [/quote]
Ain’t THAT the truth!

The topic of what it takes to be a casino game protection consultant has already been addressed in this forum, but it can be expanded upon:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=276274&forum=188

So,if anyone’s interested:

I’ve been very fortunate to observe scores of casino game protection seminars over the years presented by "gambling protection consultants" in public forums, in “closed” training seminars and in one-on-one settings.

While the majority of these experts never admitted to having participated in criminal activities, a few of them "crossed the line" on one or more occasions in their lives. Some were caught and paid their dues to society, later working strictly on the square. Others were never caught but, recognizing that their luck was certain to run out sooner rather than later, squared-up when sophisticated surveillance monitoring threatened their livelihoods and freedom, or turned the corner at the time that possession of the electronic “assistance” devices that made them rich became felonious.

Unfortunately, some of those programs I sat through were presented by individuals who I will not name here, to ensure that my mentioning them is not mistaken as an endorsement of their knowledge or skills, or to infer that their programs are worth the fees.

On the other hand, I’ve also been very fortunate to attend several of Steve Forte's protection seminars presented for both pit personnel and regulators/cops (which varied greatly with regard to the info tipped); attended two of Darwin Ortiz' seminars in Vegas; sat in on Sal Piacente’s class for surveillance and regulators/cops; and have attended many seminars over the last ten years conducted by George Joseph for pit personnel, surveillance and regulators/cops.

Steve and Sal certainly have casino experience, and Steve more than Sal, but Mr. Ortiz has never worked in a casino in any capacity that I am aware of.

As a big fan of Darwin Ortiz’ book Gambling Scams I was somewhat disappointed when his protection program seemed designed more to wow the attendees with his card handling skills and promote himself and his products than to teach meaningful game protection methods. More importantly, to me anyway, is that I detected a distinct air of superiority and condescension in his first two presentations that irked me enough to decide not to attend future sessions when the opportunity arose in subsequent years. Admittedly, I have never sat with him one-on-one as I have with other consultants to get a sense of his experience and overall knowledge and I’ve heard from mutual friends that he is quite a gentleman in private. Nevertheless, I couldn’t help feeling that while he is unquestionably very knowledgeable about gambling on a wide range of topics and was able to perform many moves and explain them adequately, despite his boasts about being the “Greatest” and “Foremost” expert at demonstrating cheating, several of the manipulations that he presented live and on his videos as gambling moves were “pseudo-gambling” moves of the type entertainers rely upon when “educating” the public to the ways of cardsharps. To me, if you inform your audience that you are going to perform the real stuff, you owe it to them to give it to them, and not fudge it with a mixture of gambling, pseudo-gambling, and purely magical sleights.

For some reason, despite Ortiz’ persuading me that he was an expert who had valuable information to share, I felt that he lacked the convincing intuitiveness that emanates from someone who has really been there, or who at least has worked extensively in the casino environment overseeing gambling operations from a protection standpoint.

Not surprisingly, yet on the other end of the spectrum, Steve Forte’s seminars were chockfull of gold, although those of you thinking it was an opportunity to witness his world class card handling first-hand would be mistaken because, with the exception of his demonstrating the sky-shuffle and a few more zero-shuffles and an uncanny ability to kill a “six” with the bottom die consistently on the craps table (that he later confided was an incredibly good morning for him), his lectures and demonstrations did not utilize sleights. Rest assured, however, that you would not have been disappointed. Steve made it quite clear that he believed he would be cheating his clients if he wasted their valuable class-time performing “magic tricks” and concentrated instead on both the methods used by real casino cheats and the ways to both detect and prevent them. I understood his reasoning at the time, but told him during a break that I thought he should consider hitting cops from the get-go with a few false shuffles and other sleights to wake them up; prove to them that he was an expert; and warn them as an authoritative figure that what they thought was impossible could very well happen in their houses.

Steve’s ability to call out the values of the backsides of the distant readers he had the attendees examine as we passed them around the room shocked us all - here he was reading marks that we couldn’t find, with little more than a sideways glance from thirty feet away. Cops in training are generally quite skeptical and can spot a phony a mile away; Steve gained their respect without resorting to a series of magic tricks, and it was then that I understood why he presented his seminars in as he did.

Watching Sal Piacente in action was a very pleasant surprise for me, as my only familiarity with “The Hit Man” was what Steve had told me years earlier about his unmatchable mnemonic ability, and the little I had read on-line about the magic DVDs he sells. While it came as no surprise to me when Sal capably demonstrated a number of card and dice moves and gaffs, I was very impressed with his extensive knowledge of dealing procedures, how they can be exploited, and how they can be safeguarded.

I introduced myself during a break and he explained that he had worked as a dealer in Atlantic City for a couple of years before joining the staff of a New Jersey game protection company and, later, went to work for Steve’s casino consulting company in Vegas, which explained his diverse familiarity with game protection. Sal, despite his menacing moniker and tough-guy web site persona, is a very nice man and a real down to earth guy who’s seminar I would attend again in a heart beat.

George Joseph is truly an enigma – unbelievably funny; a capable card and dice man; exceptionally knowledgeable about all phases of casino gaming generally and game protection specifically; a savvy and very experienced surveillance director; and a huge proponent of implementing and maintaining solid internal controls that reduce casino losses without running the risk of costing more money in slowing down the games than the cheats could ever steal, or the counters can ever win will their skill.

As a pioneer in the game protection field when he produced and starred in the first videotaped expose ever made in the early ‘80s; the author of several books; producer of a number of DVDs; and a “talking head” on dozens of cable TV shows about casino cheating, George is “the consultant’s consultant” that Steve Forte asked to edit both of his protection books.

What makes George truly special is his outgoing personality and ability to tailor his classes to meet the demands of diverse groups of any size. Having attended classes that he presented solely for casino supervisors, and other seminars limited to surveillance and regulators/cops, it’s amazing how he can adapt his lesson plans and presentations to tip just enough to the casino managers to properly control their games, while holding back things that they perhaps shouldn’t be provided detailed instruction about. His demeanor and instructional approach changes when addressing surveillance people and cops, and it’s clear that feels completely at home with them and revels in revealing the good stuff.

(The whole game protection field is a conundrum: in telling people how to protect themselves from any particular scam you must explain to them how the scam operates, but there is always the concern regarding who you are educating, and what they may ultimately do with that knowledge. Common sense dictates the provision of details because, without them, the advice would be useless. Granted, dealers can and must be taught and required to adhere to proper techniques, but they need not know precisely why following those procedures are important. Managers, on the other hand, need to understand WHY certain procedures must be followed, and the repercussions likely to follow if they get lax in their oversight. Nonetheless, we can’t help wondering if we aren’t teaching some people things that can come back and bite us later on.)

George keeps as up-to-date on scams as anyone in the business, and is really hip to technological advancements, mechanical gaffs, and sleight of hand, all of which he demonstrates to cops and regulators in a stream of facts interspersed continuously with hilarity that keeps even the cops coming in off the grave shift awake for the entire class and makes them all glad they attended.

The point I’m trying to make here is that “experts” differ in their levels of capability and, more importantly in my view, the diversity of their fields of expertise. I’ve benefited greatly from the information provided by many experts and have passed that knowledge along to others in my employ. Does all of the knowledge I’ve gained from personal instruction, videos, and private conversations and emails with some of the most experienced gaming protection consultants in the world, when coupled with the utilization of my investigative experience and teaching background qualify me an expert capable of educating others?

Perhaps, by some standards and for limited specific purposes, but not at the level of any of those whom I consider to be the very best gaming protection experts. Whether a person is an expert or not is dependant, to a large degree, on the extent of the knowledge possessed by those seeking advice, and on the needs of those trainees.

If, lets say, the audience (or students, if you will) are trainee gaming inspectors - a lecture or video solely displaying sleights is entertaining, but provides little of what these trainees really need to learn. The primary skills required of gaming regulators include investigative and interviewing techniques; basic gaming surveillance instruction; report writing skills and lectures educating them on the laws, rules, regulations, internal controls and rules of the games that are enforced within their jurisdiction.

Although I don’t have a “web-like pocket” in my palm formed after years of switching dice like some of the real experts do, I can demonstrate dice switching techniques by secretly palming some baloneys, picking up the squares, and slowly demonstrating how the switches are performed. The observers don’t necessarily have to see a capable dice switch to understand how one is performed. Once the basic premise is understood and videos of some good dice switches are viewed, the observers will quickly and fully understand the threat.

The same can be said about dealing seconds; while I can describe the methods behind these difficult sleights and demonstrate the principles behind their execution well enough for people to understand what transpires, I cannot deal seconds like the many of the members here. However, when my demonstration is supplemented with a video of a capable card man dealing seconds, I can clearly drive home the point that even trained observers will find it difficult to catch a capable cardman in action, if at all.

Additionally, I don’t have a problem with an expert telling us in advance that, while the move he is about to be performed is not top notch, it will provide us with an excellent illustration of what we should be looking for. Such disclosures actually make the consultant appear more “down to earth” and, ultimately, more believable in many cases to us “mere mortals.”

To my knowledge, there is no single person available today who can teach investigative and interviewing techniques; basic gaming surveillance instruction; report writing skills and lecture about the laws, internal controls and rules of the games that are enforced within multiple jurisdictions, and is also a capable card and dice mechanic, although Bill Zender – who is not a mechanic but can adequately demonstrate the moves - probably comes closest, considering his varied occupational experience in the casino and regulatory/enforcement worlds.

Bret
Message: Posted by: splice (Nov 12, 2009 05:16PM)
That was an amazing post, Bret. Glad you shared this with us.
Message: Posted by: iamslow (Nov 12, 2009 05:23PM)
Thanks for the responses Mr. Z and Brett... I cant believe Brett still typed as much as he did, since he allready posted a link to this topic from before... :snail:
Message: Posted by: Bret Maverick (Nov 12, 2009 08:44PM)
You're very welcome splice and iamslow, I'm glad that my longwinded jabbering was read and enjoyed.

Bret
Message: Posted by: Howard Coberly (Nov 12, 2009 10:03PM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-09 02:00, ASW wrote:
[quote]
On 2009-11-08 17:42, tommy wrote:
Like you and Ortiz you mean? :)
[/quote]

Amusing.

I have never worked as a consultant. I have never said I worked as a consultant. I have never had any desire to work as a consultant. I do know a few, however, and while it might assist to have worked as a dealer, it is by no means necessary. Just as it is by no means necessary to have worked as a scuffler to be able to advise on game protection. If you have the knowledge, you have the knowledge.

Darwin Ortiz's client list speaks for itself, regardless of any snarky comments from magic forum members.

Andrew
[/quote]






Fight the urge, Howie...fight the urge....that's it, go back to sleep.
Message: Posted by: ASW (Nov 13, 2009 12:22AM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-12 21:44, Bret Maverick wrote:
You're very welcome splice and iamslow, I'm glad that my longwinded jabbering was read and enjoyed.

Bret
[/quote]

It was an excellent and comprehensive post.

I was glad to see Bill Zender mentioned. He's an extremely knowledgeable guy and assisted me a few years ago with a book I am writing which is linked to this subject.

I hope you do get to meet Darwin some day. He is indeed a gentleman. In regard to Michael's post which started this thread, I certainly think his query has been answered at length.

Andrew
Message: Posted by: ASW (Nov 13, 2009 12:32AM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-12 23:03, Howard Coberly wrote:

Fight the urge, Howie...fight the urge....that's it, go back to sleep.
[/quote]

"Whenever I find myself gripping anything too tightly I just ask myself, 'How would Guy Hollingworth hold this?'" ~ A magician on the Genii forum
Message: Posted by: iamslow (Nov 13, 2009 06:36AM)
Hey Andrew, let me know when your book comes out, would like to read it... is it fictional or instructional or both??
Message: Posted by: Kjellstrom (Nov 13, 2009 12:26PM)
JOIN - Darwin Ortiz Fan Group on Facebook!

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/group.php?gid=67484679658 (watch a superb video clip from Scams & Fantasies with Cards)

Watch this superb DVD set from Darwin Ortiz and you will see a true expert with a deck of cards (not many people in the WORLD can do THIS with just a deck of cards:

http://www.llpub.com/zenshop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=2600

Next DVD is utterly extreme, expert card cheating at highest level with Darwin!

http://www.llpub.com/zenshop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=2538

If you can do card cheating perfect like this with a deck of cards then you are a true GURU.
Message: Posted by: splice (Nov 13, 2009 12:42PM)
Uh... thanks for that, I guess. I think we're aware of who Darwin is and what he has out on the market.

So if Darwin's cheating DVD is "utterly extreme, expert at the highest level", what is Steve's like? "incredibly super-duper over the top extremely extreme, super pro expert at the level higher than the highest, ever, forever more"?
Message: Posted by: ASW (Nov 13, 2009 02:54PM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-13 07:36, iamslow wrote:
Hey Andrew, let me know when your book comes out, would like to read it... is it fictional or instructional or both??
[/quote]

It's non-fiction and not strictly instructional, though it has some sections that discuss game protection issues which may be of interest to some.
Message: Posted by: kcg5 (Nov 13, 2009 05:05PM)
Thank you Mr. Maverick for another one of your incredibly informative posts. Very interesting things you bring up. For my money, Its forte all the way. Watching Ortiz is not the same as watching Forte, at least to me.
Message: Posted by: kcg5 (Nov 13, 2009 05:06PM)
And if there really is a Ortiz fan club on facebook.... I might have to start one for that other dude.
Message: Posted by: iamslow (Nov 13, 2009 06:53PM)
Either way, Ortiz still has some pretty sick chops regardless of his experience...
Message: Posted by: The Dowser (Nov 14, 2009 06:38AM)
Eye candy isn't everything.
You could chop off Darwin Ortiz's hands and he would still be impressive... as he has an encyclopedic knowledge of sleight of hand with cards as well as casino scams. Even if he couldn't do a single move, he would still be worth the price of admission.
Message: Posted by: The Dowser (Nov 14, 2009 07:14AM)
Worth the price for the average casino employee and for magicians and for card guys like us that is...

I'm not sure what he would have to offer surveillance departments or very knowledgeable gaming executives (there are some). There are more aspects to protecting your bottom line than popping card and dice cheats.

This is where I have to agree with Brett's comments regarding Bill Zender and George Joseph.

I should add that one of the best games protection seminars I have seen was given by a surveillance director with little apparent knowledge of gambling sleights or card moves. There were no eye popping "demonstrations" of any kind; just great information based on actual incidents backed up with footage and commentary on a variety of best practices and techniques being implemented by multiple casino's.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 14, 2009 09:55AM)
Darwin Ortiz frequently conducts seminars for gambling casino managements and police agencies. His law enforcement clients include the NJ Division of Gaming Enforcement in Atlantic City, and the LAPD, for which he made a training film on the subject. He has also testified as an expert witness in casino cheating cases. With friends like this who needs enemies? :) But anyway the law courts regard him as an expert. I would be surprised to find that he has no casino experience dealing.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Nov 14, 2009 10:19AM)
If my two cents are of any importance, I'd add that actual play is of first interest. You can know thousands moves, dozens sleights, you can be a first class performer but all that will be useless if you don't know how to use it in a true game.

True play involves psychology and experience is only learned while playing! No book, no video can help you about background or experience. Say you are a master of second dealing. You fool anyone, your demo is beautiful. So what? How would you use it around a table? How would you peek the top card? How would you cull according the locals rules?

What I mean is that true knowledge is better than great moves. You have a staggering bottom deal? Absolutely useless if the guys use a cut card. You're a master of some pass? What if they force a two hands release cut?

Great kills is one thing, true knowledge another one. Only true play/experience can teach you what really matters to fool players. Of course, astonishing skills help but it's only one part of the contract. You must fell the right instant, you must understand the other players.

Leagues, clubs, pubs, cardrooms, tourneys, casinos, friendly games, whatever, true background is irreplaceable. Very often guys are mistaken about true cheating. It's one thing been able to do a sleight undetectably and another one to do it with strangers around you. Cheating has nothing to do with magic

Then, IMHO, true experience is mandatory. I'd say that sleights are secondary if you wanna be an expert. If you can understand, feel, detect when something weird is in the air, it's much more important than fooling people with a move.

If you wanna be called "expert", true play is mandatory.
Message: Posted by: The Dowser (Nov 15, 2009 04:27PM)
"If you wanna be called "expert", true play is mandatory"
Baloney.
You don't have to execute a single move and you never have to bet a dime to be an expert in the field of games protection.

"It takes one to catch one" is just sales hype from magician/armchair gaming types trying to pass themselves off... which is why I will not be surprised if most of the members HERE disagree with me.
Message: Posted by: Maitre D (Nov 15, 2009 06:54PM)
I agree 100% with Dowser.

Sure, experience is one of many avenues of gaining knowledge, but it's by no means mandatory.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 15, 2009 07:06PM)
Knowledge is one thing wisdom is quite another.
Message: Posted by: Maitre D (Nov 15, 2009 08:11PM)
I get the feeling if any of us had even a trace amount of wisdom, we'd stay far away from gambling.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 15, 2009 08:52PM)
True. The advantage makes it a business.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Nov 16, 2009 12:31PM)
Baloney? I'm afraid you read my post at light speed...

I've never written you need to be a sleight of hand artist to be an expert, far from it!

What I wanted to say is that if you have played, you know the in and outs. You can "feel" the atmosphere, understand the guy's minds. It's better to know the people you want to fight. It will add a big plus to your detection procedures !

Mandatory meant that some moves, attitudes are impossible to understand if you have never played. You can have dozens cameras and show off with ultra-hype paraphernalia, if you have never played I'd like to see how you can spot a crew playing cousins, killing cards, sharing bankrolls, etc. Cheating doesn't involve sleights!

Why are you gonna write next? Maybe that you don't need to know how to play Poker or what a playing card is :)? I was used to read interesting stuff from you.
Message: Posted by: The Dowser (Nov 16, 2009 01:58PM)
It is just as difficult for someone who has played cousins to spot others doing it as it is for someone who understands the concept but has not played it themselves. The same goes for any of the other techniques you listed.
Any reading I do at light speed has never affected my comprehension. In some cases, I suppose experience is a "big plus" but it is far from mandatory.

You don't have to kill a lamb to be a good sheep dog.

By your statement "Mandatory meant that some moves, attitudes are impossible to understand..." tells me that you are over-weighing the power of experience. There is very little in gaming that is impossible to understand.

I simply think your idea is just plain wrong and my original response was not due to fast reading or any misunderstanding of your words.
It is possible that I am not thinking clearly on the subject, my opinion may be contaminated by two decades of experience actually protecting casino games.

"I was used to read interesting stuff from you."
Thanks for the compliment... I guess this time we disagree.
Message: Posted by: iamslow (Nov 16, 2009 05:25PM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-16 13:31, AMcD wrote:

It's better to know the people you want to fight. It will add a big plus to your detection procedures !

You can have dozens cameras and show off with ultra-hype paraphernalia, if you have never played I'd like to see how you can spot a crew playing cousins, killing cards, sharing bankrolls, etc. Cheating doesn't involve sleights!


[/quote]
Mabee You can turn up the volume on the cameras...... :snail:
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Nov 17, 2009 11:25AM)
Dowser,

Don't you think that the guys you are fighting are in fact what really matters?

Let's take some examples. If you use cameras or any surveillance material, I agree that the main majority of moves are just useless. You don't need outstanding paraphernalia to limit frauds. Using your own logos on the back of the cards, your own checks, there are so many effective basic stuff!

Doing so, you are mainly detecting marked cards, sleights, cold decks, etc.

But what about collusion, team play, etc.? That's what I'm talking about when I use the word "mandatory". No camera would be of any help for detecting guys killing cards. If you have never played cards, I don't clearly see how you can spot three guys signaling each other their hole cards. Without true play experience how can you know the techniques actually used? I'm OK with the fact that you don't have to be the god of cross firing to understand the technique, but how can you know it when you have never been taught it? Crews sharing/spreading pots for instance. OK, hard to detect. But experience can help you to "feel" things.

I admit that, due to my poor english, I overweight a little the role of true experience. But don't tell me that it's not a plus. A huge plus.

Catching guys like Doc or Z involves more than cameras. But I haven't worked yet in game protection, I can be realy far from the truth. What I can tell you anyway is that often I've detected that something was strange at my tables just because my background, my experience. Weird played hands, strange chip stacks variations, etc. Not everyone has 10 cameras with him :). And not everyone plays in casinos only. I'm not necessarily talking about professionals of gambling protection but about gamblers too!

Gamblers should be able to detect some weird stuff too.

IMHO.
Message: Posted by: The Dowser (Nov 17, 2009 12:36PM)
" But don't tell me that it's not a plus. A huge plus. "

I said it was a plus... read my post again. It just isn't mandatory.

"...but how can you know it when you have never been taught it?"

Being taught, and having done, are two different things. You don't have to have done it to have "been taught it".

"Catching guys like Doc or Z involves more than cameras...Not everyone has 10 cameras with him"

I have never said that cameras are a replacement for experience cheating or even playing. I never mentioned cameras and do not personally use them. I still maintain that experience at cheating is not necessary. But you hold on to that romantic notion... I'm sorry if I popped your bubble.

"If you have never played cards, I don't clearly see how you can spot three guys signaling each other their hole cards."

I don't play poker but I am willing to bet that I watch more hands than you do. We see exactly the same things. If someone farts, we both will smell it. What advantage do you have seeing covert signals that I don't have? In fact you are probably only aware of the methods used by yourself and those you have worked with (I am generously and hypothetically entertaining the notion that you have cheating experience to back up your assertions).

"And not everyone plays in casinos only."

I thought that is what this thread is about: casino games protection and casino experience.
Message: Posted by: Expertmagician (Nov 18, 2009 07:38AM)
I can tell you that I grew up in New York with Darwin during my teens and 20s....He is a very dedicated and very knowledgeable card worker. He also pays a GREAT deal of attention to detail and subtleties to make moves look natural.

Even though I have not spent any time with him since he left New York about 25-30 years ago, I have seen his videos and read his literature. So, I suspect that he is as skilled and more knowledgeable than he was 30 years ago.

Darwin has also done casino consulting to educate casinos on how to detect card cheats.

As far as cheating in casinos is concerned...I too have seen back room casino surveillance systems and after talking to many of these folks, I can tell you that if you cheat in casinos the odds are VERY VERY high that you WILL get caught. SO, don't do it !

Even if you are good enough not to be detected on camera, the casino will be able to get enough evidence to prosecute you. That will cost you megabucks for lawyer fees too and personal inconvenience. Again, don't do it !

PS: Regarding Darwin being a dealer...I don't know...But, we did learn and practice sleight of hand from the best during our teens and 20s. The only thing a dealer may learn is how to follow proceedures which supposedly keep the game ligit. Of course, those same proceedures can be duplicated by the "bad guys" for "advantage play".
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 18, 2009 07:59AM)
The dealers just happen to be the front line of defence when it comes to game protection in casino’s but I guess that matters not a jot. :)