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Topic: Killing something.
Message: Posted by: Attan (Nov 21, 2009 04:08PM)
In a thread about the electric touch mmreed came up with the following concept
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Perfect kids show effect:

Fill a fish bowl with those mini neon fish...

touch the water and whisper DEATH

watch the kids cringe. hahahahah
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It was a joke when he said it, but now I have to ask; are there any tricks available where you actually kill an animal or a bug? I would love to be able to point at a fly and just make it fall down dead. Or pick up a spider and just make it die with a wave of my hand. It would really freak people out, and with the right presentation it could actually make people believe that you where able to kill anything just like that. Maybe a bit over the limit, but that's not what I want this discussion to be about.

So. The already existing effects where you kill a living being, and ideas for new effects and concepts. That's what I'm after!

Avada kedavra

Jonatan
Message: Posted by: rockthemike (Nov 21, 2009 04:25PM)
Um...
Message: Posted by: Attan (Nov 21, 2009 05:57PM)
Good start there rockthemike; continue...

Seriously. I would really like to have some ideas on this.
Message: Posted by: Spellbinder (Nov 21, 2009 06:32PM)
You can do the killing curse with a fly and then make it come back to life. "Musca Domestica" in The Wizards' Journal #1 points the way. By resurrecting it, you have a happy ending.
Message: Posted by: The Futurist (Nov 21, 2009 09:06PM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-21 17:25, rockthemike wrote:
Um...
[/quote]

Um indeed!

...and taking particular care to mind the "is/ought gap", I wonder about that distant country known as "the past". In less animal-welfare-conscious times, there surely must have been shamans, priests, charlatans, magi, prophets and such who demonstrated their terrible power by apparently making some hapless beastie drop dead on the spot. A historical study of trickery might yield some effects of this type.
Message: Posted by: Attan (Nov 22, 2009 05:48PM)
My thought was that I could avoid that by asking here where there might be somehone who allready has studied trickery.

Would it be possible to attach an IT to a fly, and then use the electric touch to send a shock through the thread and kill it? then you might allso be able to controll it's movement before the execution.

Copyright me. In case it actually works.
Message: Posted by: The Futurist (Nov 22, 2009 07:08PM)
Depends, among other things, on the electrical conductivity of IT. I don't know much about that, but I can't imagine that IT is a very good conductor.
Message: Posted by: Attan (Nov 22, 2009 07:19PM)
Can't imagine that very much is needed to kill a fly. And it's allways possible to make a special IT for this trick. I think the hardest part would be catching a fly and sticking IT to it.. but it would be a great effect.

Other ideas of killer effects (litteraly)
Message: Posted by: The Futurist (Nov 22, 2009 08:18PM)
Um...

In the spirit of inquiry, once more, I offer up my disclaimer: http://personal.bellevuecollege.edu/wpayne/isought_gap_noticed_by_hume.htm

The "mysterious power over life and death" is quintessentially "magic" in the same way as "appearing/disappearing things" or "levitation" and we should not skirt round the issue.

The IT could be wet or greased in some way, I guess. One could also gaff an item by, in some invisible way, hooking it up to the mains, and then offer the fly some sweet and sticky, or maybe even pheromonal, incentive to land on that item.

Offing a larger creature? A remote control implant of some sort? This is quite a popular motif in sci-fi movies, it would surprise me if people hadn't actually worked on something IRL.

Maybe the contemporary extreme-bizarrist would use a little stun-gun on a holdout, if he was feeling relatively generous and would just settle for knocking the creature out, rather than killing it.
Message: Posted by: Attan (Nov 23, 2009 04:53PM)
Hmm... wouldn't the ET work as a stungun on a small enough creature? I've really got to buy myself one. That fly effect would be a good signature trick.

Drugs would probably work too, and you could probably come up with a way to release the drugs into the system at a precise time, or just measure the time it takes from the injection too the effect. A needle for the injection would probably be more than easy to hide. (if you don't tell anyone about the method you could probably even put a "borrowed dog" to sleep)

But if someone sold a magic dvd with this trick it would probably not be drugs. And it would probably not be a stungun, and there will probably be such a dvd at some point. So consequently there must be a simpler way.
Message: Posted by: rockthemike (Nov 23, 2009 05:35PM)
This is a creepy thread. Sorry, no offense.
Message: Posted by: Spellbinder (Nov 23, 2009 11:59PM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-21 19:32, Spellbinder wrote:
You can do the killing curse with a fly and then make it come back to life. "Musca Domestica" in The Wizards' Journal #1 points the way. By resurrecting it, you have a happy ending.
[/quote]
It IS getting a little creepy in here... sort of like a Sorcerer's Snuff Symposium. However, I would like to mention that in the routine I described above, from The Wizards' Journal #1, no flies are actually killed because, like Mrs. Bates in "Psycho," I wouldn't even harm a fly. It's all done with magic.
Message: Posted by: The Futurist (Nov 24, 2009 01:19AM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-24 00:59, Spellbinder wrote:
[quote]
On 2009-11-21 19:32, Spellbinder wrote:
You can do the killing curse with a fly and then make it come back to life. "Musca Domestica" in The Wizards' Journal #1 points the way. By resurrecting it, you have a happy ending.
[/quote]
It IS getting a little creepy in here... sort of like a Sorcerer's Snuff Symposium. However, I would like to mention that in the routine I described above, from The Wizards' Journal #1, no flies are actually killed because, like Mrs. Bates in "Psycho," I wouldn't even harm a fly. It's all done with magic.
[/quote]

I wonder about swapping out a live cat for an identical-looking, but stuffed one. Of course, the latter would have died of natural causes, and given some expert taxidermy. Then bringing the cat "back to life".

I call this putative effect "Schrodinger's Cat" :) Then you have a built-in rationalisation for using a box for the change, and all you need is a well-known setup plus a moggy of the right temperament to act as assistant, and a deceased lookalike.

Having said that, I guess cats don't have the magical cachet of doves or rabbits for a very good reason!
Message: Posted by: Irfaan Kahan (Nov 24, 2009 01:41AM)
Perhaps the bullet catch effect? Only instead of you having to catch the bullet you use a trained monkey, and use a real gun and real bullet. Can you just IMAGINE the laughs this will get when you actually kill the monkey?

Hahaha, just think about it - everyone's expecting some kind of MAGIC effect - and then BLAM! Monkey dust!

Although I hear that monkey prices have gone up . . .
Message: Posted by: stijnhommes (Nov 24, 2009 06:20AM)
Although killing something on stage seems like asking for trouble, it can be done to great effect. Anyone remember the Penn and Teller rabbit vanish? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6LH7towwkY

Problem is, that worked because of their character. It clearly won't work in a kid's show and it won't work if you have a persona totally different to them.
Message: Posted by: Steve_Mollett (Nov 24, 2009 09:47AM)
How about resurrecting a dead one?
Message: Posted by: The Futurist (Nov 24, 2009 02:26PM)
I imagine eg) some of the tantric sorcerors of India have no qualms about very violent and even murderous effects, in the name of making people fear them.

In the event that they actually seem to kill people with their curses - this is probably, in a lot of cases, the dark side of auto suggestion and the placebo effect, leveraging the belief system of folk. It didn't work on India's debunker Sanal Edamaruku: http://www.rationalistinternational.net/article/2008/20080310/en_1.html
Message: Posted by: BAGWIZ (Nov 27, 2009 04:48PM)
Didn't some of the crazy rock bands of the 70's and 80's sometimes pretend to kill things onstage and then bring them back to life? I also seem to recall reading something about a trick long ago, where the magician beheaded a white chicken and a black chicken, then mismatched the heads with the bodies so he had a white chicken with a black head and a black chicken with a white head. Seems to me the effect actually involved killing the poor animals, but I could be wrong.

Hmmm, this is an odd topic ...
Message: Posted by: stijnhommes (Nov 28, 2009 04:40AM)
You might have misremembered BAGWIZ. Dedi (from Ancient Egypt) did a trick where he beheaded an animal and later restored its head. Some people tell the story to the point where he was doing the effect to an ox. But when he refused to do the effect with a prisoner, you're left wondering about the method... I never heard about mismatching being part of the effect.
Message: Posted by: BAGWIZ (Nov 28, 2009 11:44AM)
You are probably right; I just don't remember where I ever heard about this type of act. For some reason, I thought it was Boscoe or one of his contemporaries. I also thought it was chickens or geese that he worked with. Someone like Max Maven would know the history on an effect like this, no doubt.
Message: Posted by: Spellbinder (Nov 29, 2009 04:28AM)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fkckEXVYTc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcQR0tg4_1U

The black and white coloration is just a matter of set-up and switching.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Dec 3, 2009 09:48AM)
Check out my EBook - "Infestation" in which you can have an entire routine infected/invaded by a bug that has to be handled in magic ways, excecpt that it to becomes magical. You can kill it in the end, have it wind up a smeak on a napkin or morph into a buttterfly. It is not an effect in itself, but a series of small effects that serve as a 'Thematic Interlude' thoughout an entire show to enhance the sense of magic.

Otherwise, the 'death' methos is a natural to magic effects, with many being of the destruction and revival theme.
Message: Posted by: harris (Apr 20, 2010 12:18PM)
The Fly.
Message: Posted by: acesover (May 26, 2010 11:01PM)
While this effect takes a few days to complete it sure seems as if you kill someone. Definitely have to be careful for whom you perform this. What is it? "BAND OF THE HAND".
Message: Posted by: David Waldorf (May 31, 2010 10:34AM)
If you are going to do the whole drugged animal thing, it would be just as well to train a dog to roll over dead. He could be trained to cues in the music, and "die" whenever you want and come back alive whenever you want.
Message: Posted by: harris (Jun 1, 2010 09:37AM)
The dog, or dove, or chicken...could fill the bill and

be funny. (even better in my book....remember those things...I knew you did)

Harris
with tongue somewhere near my cheek
Message: Posted by: Pakar Ilusi (Jun 2, 2010 08:00AM)
Funsway's idea...

Kill pests.

Like termites or ants.

Better yet Mosquitoes!

How?

Hmmm....
Message: Posted by: Doruk Ülgen (Jun 20, 2010 01:58PM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-24 02:41, Irfaan Kahan wrote:
Perhaps the bullet catch effect? Only instead of you having to catch the bullet you use a trained monkey, and use a real gun and real bullet. Can you just IMAGINE the laughs this will get when you actually kill the monkey?

Hahaha, just think about it - everyone's expecting some kind of MAGIC effect - and then BLAM! Monkey dust!

Although I hear that monkey prices have gone up . . .
[/quote]

You sound a bit problematic :)
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Jul 23, 2010 12:28AM)
In [i]Hocus Pocus, Jr.[/i] there is an effect in which a bird on a neighboring roof top falls dead upon command.
Message: Posted by: miss_vega_bond (Jul 24, 2010 05:47PM)
This is getting a bit nuts. Get a rocky, and teach it to play dead. Problem solved.
Message: Posted by: RobAnderson (Jan 2, 2011 06:57PM)
Why would you ever want to do that? I don't care if it's a person or a housefly; it's a living being which you don't have the right to kill simply for enjoyment. THAT, good sir, is called sadism. I believe serial killers start out this way...
Message: Posted by: Steve_Mollett (Jan 2, 2011 09:08PM)
To follow up on my earlier post (long ago):
My fisherman-nephew once told me that cicadas could be frozen and kept for awhile in suspended animation.
When thawed out, they would become active again.
If true, this would serve as an opportunity for a mystical 'resurrection' effect or, with the proper 'weird science' trappings, a 'Frankenstein/Herbert West' bizarre routine.
Message: Posted by: Steve_Mollett (Jan 2, 2011 09:08PM)
[quote]
On 2011-01-02 19:57, RobAnderson wrote:
Why would you ever want to do that? I don't care if it's a person or a housefly; it's a living being which you don't have the right to kill simply for enjoyment. THAT, good sir, is called sadism. I believe serial killers start out this way...
[/quote]
PETA?
Message: Posted by: DWRackley (Jan 9, 2011 04:35AM)
Just spotted this thread, and agree with those who think it’s a bit creepy. Creepy isn’t a crime in itself, just sayin’…

A few observations…

Not hard to kill something. Magic isn’t required, just a large enough dose of kinetic energy.

Bringing something back to life has more magical (or miraculous) implications, hence the more powerful the practitioner.

A housefly could be innocuous enough for a bizarrist, but anything beyond what could be termed “insect life” is likely to generate negative reactions in the viewers. Some performers don’t mind this (or actually intend it). To each his own.

I’ve played with the elder Blackstone’s version of bringing back a “dead” fly. No luck.

But a possible method occurs to me that will have the appearance of what you want. Whether it’s worth the cost is up to you.

[list][*]An electromagnet imbedded in a vertical surface, like a wall or cabinet door.
[*]An actual fly, already dead, dabbed with a drop of iron doped black paint.
[*]You “notice” the fly on the wall, point your finger at it and say “BANG! (at the same moment you kill power to the electromagnet.)
[*]The fly falls to the floor, dead (sic).
[/list]
Could even be construed as comedy under the right conditions…
Message: Posted by: djurmann (Jan 9, 2011 11:51AM)
Putting aside the entire "hey I killed something for your entertainment" aspect which I abhor, let's pretend you manage it.

You point your finger and blammo the fly dies. There is no magic, no wow how did he do that, just I wonder what gizmo he has on his finger to kill the fly?

As has been mentioned already on this thread. Bringing stuff back from the dead...now THAT is magical.
Message: Posted by: MagicJuggler (Feb 15, 2011 07:33AM)
I am reminded of the chapter in the Penn and Teller's How to Play With Your Food, entitled: The Riddle of the Six Dead Fish.
I explains a trick that they did on David Letterman, and the conundrum of killing animals as part of a magic trick.

Aparently originally they were going to have Letterman's watch be smashed, then the peices tossed into a fishtank, which would then dissolve. They would then ask Letterman to pick any fish in the tank, where they would proceed to catch it, kill it and cut it open to find the restored watch inside. The producers totally didn't go for that, so instead they dressed up six dead fish as if they were at market, and that was okay. So in effect, the killing of one fish on camera for a trick was reprehensible, but the killing of six fish off camera and displayed as food for a trick was fine.

I think before someone decides to try a trick that involves actually killing an animal in the course of a trick, they might want to consider whether they are willing to put up with the backlash that will inevitably result. Anything other than a bug is probably going to result in criminal charges if you're actually killing the animal, as opposed to just appearing to kill an animal, and 'bring it back to life.' And you're going to have to proove to some official that you're not actually hurting the animal in the process. Most states have fairly strict animal cruelty laws, and most audiences would not appreciate a trick where an animal is harmed. -For the record I am not PETA, and infact hate that orginization (not for the goal of protecting animals, but for the way they conduct their efforts). But you have to be a little realistic if you actually consider something like this. If this is all speculation, fine and dandy (if a bit morbid) but some fool is going to try a trick where they kill an animal in the process of the trick and it's not going to go over well at all.
Message: Posted by: heather (Jun 2, 2011 09:33AM)
Wow. Months of reading here, and this is the thread I choose for my first post. Kinda embarrassing (albeit not enough so that I'm not doing it anyway...).

If you're British, or living in Old Blighty, you're probably familiar with the magicians Barry and Stewart. They did a TV special several years back called, "The Magic of Jesus", where they went around Egypt recreating the magical effects or miracles of Jesus. One of the things that they did involved going out in a fishing boat with some Egyptian fishermen. They borrowed a coin from one of the fishermen and had him mark it. Threw a net in the water, and then threw the coin in. Pulled the net back into the boat and it was full of fish. Had one of the fishermen select a fish from the net. Then the words, "If you're squeamish, look away now" flashed across the screen, then they had the fisherman hack the fish in half with a knife, revealing the marked coin.

I thought that it was very well done, and well-handled. Somehow, it actually didn't occur to me until just now that the effect necessarily involved killing something. Honestly, I found Penn & Teller cutting a snake in half with scissors a lot more disturbing than the Barry and Stewart effect, and nothing actually died there (but I suppose that it was played for shock effect).

David Blane has done the frozen-fly thing, successfully, with a high-ranking New York cop as his volunteer.