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Topic: "This Week In Magic" Interview Questions.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Nov 30, 2009 12:44PM)
Did anyone else listen to this round table discussion?
http://mnw.squarespace.com/magicnewsfeed/2009/11/23/this-week-in-magic-episode-1.html
Towards the last half the subject of exposure is considered and there seems to be a Huge difference about how it is viewed by Magicians or Mentalists.
Check it out.
Message: Posted by: magicnewswire (Nov 30, 2009 09:24PM)
Episode #2 of the our new roundtable podcast [url=http://bit.ly/7UxZfE]This Week in Magic[/url] is now online.
Brian Brushwood joins us to discuss exposure and marketing magic to the college market. Enjoy!
Message: Posted by: Oyama (Dec 1, 2009 12:18AM)
I listened to the second Callahan interview on my way to work today. Very interesting conversation. I thought it was funny that Mr. Wells asked if Jim asked me to post for him. I posted my thoughts out of frustration for one part of his interview. The rest of the interview I enjoyed.

I thought the discussion about exposure was interesting. I don't think any exposure is good. Even the most basic methods can be used to create miracles and they should not be exposed.

Very nice round table discussion Dodd.

BTW...I am listening to the James Randi interview and find it very interesting. I am waiting for the "tough" questions though. I haven't heard any so far.
Message: Posted by: magicnewswire (Dec 1, 2009 12:47AM)
I hope that you enjoy the Second TWiM which went up today in which Brian responds to the exposure issue.
Message: Posted by: Tom Cutts (Dec 1, 2009 01:52PM)
Per #2

I heard a LOT of excuses and bad justification being given for the exposures which were discussed. Mental Epic requires a prop. How does one expose that for use in a bar crowd by a total beginner who wanted to learn some bar bets?

What are the beginners' books which expose Mental Epic? The ONLY book mentioned by name was Joshua Jay's great book, Magic the Complete Course. It does not expose Mental Epic.

That portion came off as sad. Magicians just don't even care anymore.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Dec 1, 2009 07:36PM)
I haven't heard all of 2 yet but I find it strange that there is no one to represent those that believe in the "Magicians Code" any longer.
On the first one it seemed everyone except Callahan was falling all over themselves to cover what they'd said at first about the Masked Magicians and then try to say the same about Brushwood but with an opposite conclusion :)

No one is listening.

You'd perform it better than he did.

People won't remember .....

ALMOST IDENTICAL.... I'm glad it's been recorded for the posterities sake :)

Those here at the Café have removed posts that contain Brian's web page citing EXPOSURE as the reason. :)

Now that IS the correct response!!!!!
Message: Posted by: Tom Cutts (Dec 1, 2009 09:09PM)
OK, I watched the Mental podcast. Between the "Gee, I really wish I was still in high school, look at me, look at me" hair-do, AND immediately showing his spectators how it is done (isn't that EXPOSURE?) I can tell you this guy is just selling out magic. He flat out asked them, "Would you like to see how it is done?" That tells you what his mind frame is.

Furthermore, his reason for EXPOSING this is because someone on his forum asked him to. You know what that is called? [b]EXPOSING[/b]

Check his key words. Seems like more than half of them are magic related, not scam or bar bet related.

Yeah right, "teaching magic" what a joke. Part of uplifting the art and respecting magic is knowing when to respect the quality of an EFFECT and not give it away for free to total beginners.
Message: Posted by: Oyama (Dec 2, 2009 02:23AM)
Tom and Samurai

People aren't listening. They will tell you that you are "missing" the point and that you don't get it. That's what I got from speaking my mind with the first Callahan interview.

Remember...you don't have a right to complain if you publish it. We all heard that loud and clear.

The direction mentalism and magic are going is sad. I have said it many times. This is another reason I don't consider myself a mentalist or a magicians. They are both turning what we do into bar tricks. Not to mention how all mentailst have to perform one way or your attacked for it.

Another note. My wife listened to the first callahan interview and came to the same conclusion I came to. I didn't say a word to her before she heard the interview. She could care less about this stuff and saw that Dodd was trying to get Jim reduce his performance to a trick. We all read in Banacheks post that he tells his audience that he does most of his effects with magic. WTF!

Whatever...
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Dec 2, 2009 08:45AM)
Finished listening and I've got to say I've lost a lot of respect for Scott Wells. He "Almost" asked the right questions but then backed off at the first hint of confrontation.
TEACHING IS "EXPOSURE" ON STEROIDS .... :)
SPOON FEED THEM THE SECRETS AND CALL IT TEACHING INSTEAD OF EXPOSING!

Not a very Logical position at all. I can't believe Wells let them get away with it.

Brian says that if he'd made a DVD that no one would probably care ... And I don't believe I would if he SOLD IT .... But by giving it away for free on Youtube he's selling us ALL down the river ... Just for the GO DADDY sponsor money!!!!!
Message: Posted by: magicnewswire (Dec 2, 2009 10:47AM)
I do appreciate that everyone has an opinion on this. It always make me think.

[quote]
On 2009-12-01 14:52, Tom Cutts wrote:
What are the beginners' books which expose Mental Epic? The ONLY book mentioned by name was Joshua Jay's great book, Magic the Complete Course. It does not expose Mental Epic.
[/quote]

Just to clarify, and anyone that has watched Brian's show on Rev 3 will know, he DOES NOT expose Mental Epic. Cameron misspoke and none of us caught it until later. He demonstrates a One Ahead principle.
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Dec 2, 2009 03:15PM)
I wonder if people feel the same about known magician's and mentalist's who produce DVD's specifically to market to the open public where anyone can get their hands on it. And, advertises their effects as easy enough for even hobbyists to perform. I've seen a lot of advertising these days directly aimed at enticing those who may only perform magic as a hobby or bar trick. What's the thoughts on that?
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Dec 2, 2009 07:04PM)
[quote]
On 2009-12-02 15:56, magicnewswire wrote:
[quote]
On 2009-12-01 14:52, Tom Cutts wrote:
What are the beginners' books which expose Mental Epic? The ONLY book mentioned by name was Joshua Jay's great book, Magic the Complete Course. It does not expose Mental Epic.
[/quote]

Just to clarify, and anyone that has watched Brian's show on Rev 3 will know, he DOES NOT expose Mental Epic. Cameron misspoke and none of us caught it until later. He demonstrates a One Ahead principle.
[/quote]

EVEN WORSE !!!!!!

He's exposing methods that are still used by mentalist and magicians alike.

Now what about the other dozen or so effects that he DOES Expose on Youtube for anyone to view?
Message: Posted by: Nathan Pain (Dec 2, 2009 07:39PM)
He seems to be what we in Iowa call a "dewche"...

Nathan
Message: Posted by: Scott Wells (Dec 3, 2009 05:16AM)
[quote]
On 2009-12-01 14:52, Tom Cutts wrote:
Per #2

I heard a LOT of excuses and bad justification being given for the exposures which were discussed.
[/quote]

[quote]
On 2009-12-01 22:09, Tom Cutts wrote:

Yeah right, "teaching magic" what a joke. Part of uplifting the art and respecting magic is knowing when to respect the quality of an EFFECT and not give it away for free to total beginners.
[/quote]

Hello Tom,

You know that I value your opinion, my friend, so I ask; what is the proper venue and medium to teach magic? Should we take advantage of modern technology to reach the masses (i.e. YouTube, DVD's, iPhone apps, etc.) or just stick with books? And in that regard, where should they be sold? Should the sales be relegated to just brick and mortar shops where one must come in and prove his/her aptitude and interest in magic before a sale is made?

Is it exposure if the book is sold through a public outlet like Borders Books or Barnes and Noble but not exposure if they buy the same book from Denny & Lee or Stevens Emporium? The general public can walk in to a magic shop just as easily as they can walk into a public book store. I doubt that any merchant behind a magic counter (with a few exceptions) would refuse to sell a magic "secret" to someone with money in their hand. Sure, I know the conscientious dealer will direct the beginner to tricks and books more suited for their level, but I know some will just take their money. Are they wrong for accepting money for something that's too advanced for their skill level? Must a beginner go through an apprenticeship so they can be identified as having a valid, true interest in magic? Do we need to keep our small world small?

Who is to say that someone with a passing interest won't get excited about seeing their first trick on YouTube then develop that interest into something that makes them the next Lance Burton? People become infected with the "magic bug" in various and unknown ways. We all have stories of how we were first introduced to magic. I believe that some today are coming into our fold after having received a magic set or book while others may have seen something on TV or YouTube. Those in the latter group may be few and only got hit by the scatter-shot, but nevertheless, they are here...and probably on the Magic Café, too. They are beginners and getting information for free.

As to Joshua Jay's wonderful book, he had a lot of really great ideas and principles that are used by professional magicians. And in fact I know some of the things he put in his book are now in the repertoires of some magicians that weren't there before the book was released. Was that book "too good" for beginners? Are some magicians afraid to say that some of what he published was "exposure" but won't say it because of his celebrated status in our community? But if neophytes don't learn from books like his, then where should these beginners go to learn our craft?

When you say that we "should not give it away for free to total beginners," does that mean that we should charge beginners but not those who are more advanced? And once again I ask, where should those beginners go to find (and pay) for learning...magic shops, the Internet, iPhone apps, television, or ????? And are we prostituting our art when we sell magic? If so, then I stand accused among a massive and august group that spans time from Reginald Scot to Houdini through Tarbell and Mark Wilson down to Michael Ammar and Daniel Garcia.

And what constitutes exposure? What trick(s), effect(s) or principle(s) are too precious to be shared? How did some things get into the hands of the general public in the first place to now be relegated and considered "public domain"? And who determines which tricks or effects or principles are "acceptable" to re-package and re-publish because they are already in the "public domain"? There are no lists of tricks or principles that are acceptable or taboo. It may be Christmas, but sorry Virginia, there is no list of what's naughty and nice.

Who are and where are the "Magic Police"? Going down this road is a slippery slope. Believe me when I say that because that is in part why we disbanded the World Alliance of Magicians (W.A.M.). We did not want to take the role of the international Magic Police.

What is the price of admission and who gets to play?

yours,
Scott
Message: Posted by: magicnewswire (Dec 3, 2009 02:52PM)
[quote]
On 2009-12-02 20:04, Psychic Samurai wrote:
He's exposing methods that are still used by mentalist and magicians alike.
Now what about the other dozen or so effects that he DOES Expose on Youtube for anyone to view?
[/quote]

There are only a few episodes on YouTube. Brian has done 90 shows to date and you can find them all [url=http://revision3.com/scamschool]HERE[/url]
I would be very interested in which specific episodes and effects you feel should not have been taught on the show.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Dec 3, 2009 07:06PM)
[quote]
On 2009-12-03 15:52, magicnewswire wrote:
[quote]
On 2009-12-02 20:04, Psychic Samurai wrote:
He's exposing methods that are still used by mentalist and magicians alike.
Now what about the other dozen or so effects that he DOES Expose on Youtube for anyone to view?
[/quote]

There are only a few episodes on YouTube. Brian has done 90 shows to date and you can find them all [url=http://revision3.com/scamschool]HERE[/url]
I would be very interested in which specific episodes and effects you feel should not have been taught on the show.
[/quote]

How many Blatant and Obvious exposures do you require Dodd, before you see this for what it is?
Is one to be simply forgiven?
How about two?
Is three enough to call Brian out?
Would four violations of "The Magicians Code" be enough?
Where do you draw the line?
Please give me a number and I'll spend the time going through the offensive BS.

[quote]
On 2009-12-03 15:52, magicnewswire wrote:
[quote]
On 2009-12-02 20:04, Psychic Samurai wrote:
He's exposing methods that are still used by mentalist and magicians alike.
Now what about the other dozen or so effects that he DOES Expose on Youtube for anyone to view?
[/quote]

There are only a few episodes on YouTube. Brian has done 90 shows to date and you can find them all [url=http://revision3.com/scamschool]HERE[/url]
I would be very interested in which specific episodes and effects you feel should not have been taught on the show.
[/quote]

I typed in Brushwood on youtube and over 29 videos labeled Scam School surfaced ... IS THAT WHAT YOU CALL A FEW? How very odd...... Dodd :)

That's a lot more than four :)

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=brushwood&search_type=&aq=f

If you plug in Scam School 84 video's come up in two seconds (That doesn't seem like too much effort to me)
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=scam+school&search_type=&aq=f
Message: Posted by: Nigromante (Dec 3, 2009 08:20PM)
Ok, guess what, youtube is not a threat to our art. We've heard this cry for years and it has done nothing to destroy us. Bad magicians are a threat, the lack of practice is a threat, and not because of possible exposure, but because bad magician's make people not like magic. People in the end will forget the videos, and will remember the performances if the performances are well done and amazing. If youtube was going to destroy us, we'd be done already.

Second, I am broke. Many of you can probably understand this concept, some of you may not, but I don't have the luxury of having money. I do have a passion for this art, and a desire to reelevate it to the upper echelons of entertain where it belongs. I love amazing people, and giving them the opportunity to return to that time in their life where all things were possible. However because of the first problem I can't buy all the books and dvds and tricks I'd like to. But because of people like Brian, I have a large repertoire of effects I do and am learning. Because they offer a knowledge to those who care enough to learn it. Where the only currency required is desire and passion. For those who lack these things, they may find the video and may see something exposed, but they will forget the methods and move on in their lives. For those of us who have the drive we are able to take part in something we wouldn't have otherwise.

I understand the need to protect our art, and our secrets and methods, but I refuse to accept the idea that we should deny those with desire and passion on the grounds that they don't have the cash.

Scam school with many others out there provide opportunity to enlarge and better our art. They do not destroy it.

One more thing. Those who seek out these videos to learn the methods and expose us aren't real specs anyways. They aren't the ones who'd enjoy our performances. Those who are really impressed by what we do, you know the ones we want to perform for, don't look these things up.

I know this is long, but I'm tired of the worn out idea that Youtube is going to destroy us. It's not and in fact if used correctly and embraced, it will do nothing but enlarge and increase the strength of our art.

-Frank
Message: Posted by: dmann11 (Dec 3, 2009 08:22PM)
I am one of those people who's interest in Magic has been rekindled by Scam School. Yes, it "gives away" tricks, but frankly, good.

Is there a fear that if people start getting interested in Magic via Scam School, they won't go to shows anymore, that they won't watch David Blaine or (hopefully someday in the USA) Derren Brown on a big TV extravaganza?

I see Scam School as the front of a resurgence in Magic, a sense of wonder in a world that technology allows to do anything.

Embrace the newbies, because for every kid who watches Scam School, you have a potential ticket buyer for a LIVE art that does what movies and TV so rarely do anymore, make the audience go "THAT ISN'T POSSIBLE".

I remember back in the late 70's and early 80s, as a kid, watching guys like Doug Henning, rest his soul and then David Copperfield (who must have been what, 12?) and running out to the magic shop in the MALL and getting books and tricks. I don't remember how to do any of those, I let it go, but I sure as hell always watched when Penn and Teller or Harry Anderson was doing tricks on Carson or Letterman or Leno.

Scam School and the like are creating the magic fans of the future. There is an opportunity to really take this art to the next level. The smart magicians and mentalists will build on it.

Now, if you will excuse me, I have to go to the bar and eat a match.
Message: Posted by: Nigromante (Dec 3, 2009 08:24PM)
Also I'd like to see Scott's questions answered. I think they're worth being answered, and provide interesting thoughts to the idea of what teaching is in this day and age, and what exposure is. Tom will you answer those for us?
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Dec 3, 2009 08:34PM)
I'm glad to see two new faces on the Café with their first posts. Very nice. And finding this thread is especially hard since it's been moved.
It's also interesting that neither of you have spent any money on the effects being EXPOSED ... So you've lost nothing.

You both need to grow a set of ETHICS :)
Message: Posted by: Nigromante (Dec 3, 2009 08:44PM)
Would you care to address the issue at hand or just attack us on an assumed lack of experience, because we only have a couple posts on one forum under our belts? Not every great magician is even a member here, so it can't be assumed we don't know anything because of having only a couple posts. Admittedly I found this thread because of twitter and the fact that I follow Brian. I'm not ashamed to admit I'm a fan of his and on his side in this issue.

Second. You're so worried about what you've lost, that you refuse to see what others gain. People who would've never been able to touch this art and improve it have done so because of things like scam school and youtube. I've spent money on things, and have seen them exposed, and it didn't get me upset. Interesting considering the fact that buying tricks is a treat for me. Just because someone exposed it does not equate to me losing anything.

Can you specifically tell me what you lost? Also can you answer the questions Scott put forth, and the points of our arguments, instead of personally attacking us? Or will you continue to ignore them hoping we'll forget about them and their validity? If we're wrong about what we said please tell us how.
Message: Posted by: dmann11 (Dec 3, 2009 08:55PM)
Just for the record, I have spent money on effects subsequent to watching scam school.

I've given money to Daniel Garcia, Andrew Mayne, Richard Sanders, Wayne Houchin, Joshua Jay and Mike Paul.

None of which would have been spent on magic without scam school.

Maybe in 20 years you will see me perform one, ha ha. (practice, ya know)
Message: Posted by: DiopticTurtle (Dec 3, 2009 09:19PM)
I find it interesting that you are using the term 'exposure' as a bad thing. I think shows like Scam School serve to attract new people to the business. Sure there are people who will watch Scam School, fancy themselves magicians right proper, and attempt to collect on it. I, however, see Scam School as a way to get your foot in the door that is magic. It's accessible, and I think that's what people disagree with the most. I'm sure when all of you first took up magic, it was an uphill battle. You had to keep practicing, and practicing, buying new tricks, learning from other magicians, and poured a lot of blood sweat and tears into your routines. Now, people can watch a few episodes of Scam School, and learn to do a few tricks, free of charge. This just makes magic more accessible to the common person. Surely you have more tricks up your sleeves, somewhere between the doves and the extremely long handkerchief chain. I don't put myself on the same level as you. I don't think I could perform a show. I do think that I could build confidence in a bar with a few simple slight of hand tricks, and maybe, that'll be enough to get me to want to spend the time on "Real" magic.
-SierraTango
Message: Posted by: magicnewswire (Dec 3, 2009 10:04PM)
[quote]
How many Blatant and Obvious exposures do you require Dodd, before you see this for what it is?
Is one to be simply forgiven?
How about two?
Is three enough to call Brian out?
Would four violations of "The Magicians Code" be enough?
Where do you draw the line?
Please give me a number and I'll spend the time going through the offensive BS.
[/quote]

If Mike Powers or Danny Garcia have given Brian permission to teach their original material on his show, that is their call and I see noway to call it exposure in those circumstances. Nothing I say will change your mind PS, hence I will refrain from participating. After all... I am no tthe producer of Scam School, I just happen to be a guy that loves magic and does everything that he can to promote the art with a lil podcast called The Spirit of Magic. I've added a show (This Week in Magic) which offers and opportunity for free and open discussion on these topics. You may disagree with me and my opinion. That's ok. People have to agree to disagree sometimes. Sorry.

[quote]
I typed in Brushwood on youtube and over 29 videos labeled Scam School surfaced ... IS THAT WHAT YOU CALL A FEW? How very odd...... Dodd :)
That's a lot more than four :)
[/quote]

You are correct. The search I did turned up less that 12 from April.

It appears that they do in fact have the entire series with the exception of several of the most recent ones on YouTube. Not having and direct affiliation with Brian or the show Scam School, or with Revision 3, I wasn't aware. I get them directly from the iTunes feed myself.

It really doesn't matter to me if they are all on YouTube or not. That wasn't the point, I simply wanted to make sure that you were aware of the primary source for distribution, as it sounded to me as if you were basing your thoughts on those few that I referenced above as opposed to the entire back catalog of shows.

[quote]
On 2009-12-03 21:24, Nigromante wrote:
Also I'd like to see Scott's questions answered. I think they're worth being answered, and provide interesting thoughts to the idea of what teaching is in this day and age, and what exposure is. Tom will you answer those for us?
[/quote]

I agree. Scott obviously put a great deal of effort into composing a very thoughtful post. Given his past efforts on behalf of magic to battle exposure as the VP of WAM, he's obviously put a great deal of energy and thought into the topic of exposure as a whole. I'm honored to have Scott on the podcast to bring his vast experience and knowledge to bear on topics like these. Thanks for taking the time to post your response Scott.

Tom lives in Oakland and I have no reason to think he's anything other than a nice guy expressing his own viewpoint on a controversial topic. Maybe he'll make a drive into the city when Brian announces his next film date and watch what goes on, have a chat with Shwood and report back.
Message: Posted by: Tom Cutts (Dec 4, 2009 03:41AM)
Hi Scott,

Yes, we are friends and I too value your perspective. I, like Dave, sensed you pushing the issue in one of your questions... and then you backed away from that completely. Why?

[quote]
what is the proper venue and medium to teach magic?
[/quote]
This has absolutely NOTHING to do with the medium of exchanging information. It has EVERYTHING to do with the transaction of exchanging information. In this case the information is given for FREE to ANYONE who opens the TV Guide of this generation (google) and looks for secrets to magic tricks. There is no difference between looking in cyber space for Scum School and looking up when the masked magician will be on. And YES, you could be wandering through YouTube innocently and accidentally stumble on this exposure, just like you can run across the masked one while flipping through that old technology, television.

Again, look at the key words chosen. The intended audience is clearly people who want to learn the secrets of magic tricks for free. No display of interest to perform. No exchange of monetary gain. No demostration of commitment to the art. Simply thrown up into cyber space for free, just like the spectators in his videos. "So, would you like to see how it is done?" I was raised to know that is exposure.

[quote]where should they be sold?[/quote] Scott, can you point out where Scum School is [b]sold[/b]?

[quote]Is it exposure if the book is sold through a public outlet like Borders Books or Barnes and Noble but not exposure if they buy the same book from Denny & Lee or Stevens Emporium?[/quote]Scott, can you point out where Scum School is [b]sold?[/b]

[quote]Are they wrong for accepting money for something that's too advanced for their skill level?[/quote] Personally, I'd say yes, but in the end an actual transaction took place. The person behind the counter didn't wink and say, "Would you like to see how its done?" and then divulge the method FOR FREE. It may not be a perfect system but the established capitalist exchange for a product is money. I'm fine if a guy has the nerve to stand up and denounce the capitalist way and act accordingly. At least then we have an honest point of view. But that isn't at all what Scum School or its host is about. And they aren't about free knowledge for the world or the changing morrays in social exchange. If they were those things would certainly have been brought up. They weren't.

[quote]Must a beginner go through an apprenticeship so they can be identified as having a valid, true interest in magic?[/quote] I was taught he should do SOMETHING which shows his or her earnest interest. Scum School asks for nothing of the sort.

[quote]Do we need to keep our small world small?[/quote] Has nothing to do with size, it has to do with interest. Scott, is it necessary to teach highly progressive techniques to absolute beginners to get their interest?

[quote]Who is to say that someone with a passing interest won't get excited about seeing their first trick on YouTube then develop that interest into something that makes them the next Lance Burton?[/quote] Great point, lets contact Lance and find out what the first tricks he learned were and what his mentors expected in return before devulging the truly diabolical methods.

[quote]People become infected with the "magic bug" in various and unknown ways. We all have stories of how we were first introduced to magic. I believe that some today are coming into our fold after having received a magic set or book while others may have seen something on TV or YouTube.[/quote]So should you regret attempting to stifle this budding interest by the actions you took against that masked TV guy? I have heard a few instances where those shows sparked interest in new magic enthusiasts. Does that make those shows right? Of course not. And for the same reason Scum School is not right. Both foster from the very beginning a lack of respect for The Magicians Code.

[quote]As to Joshua Jay's book...Was that book "too good" for beginners?[/quote]Personally I say "Yes." and Josh is also a friend of mine. I respect his decision to include the material, though I would not have; and I respect that the book is FOR SALE and not FOR FREE.

[quote]Are some magicians afraid to say that some of what he published was "exposure" but won't say it because of his celebrated status in our community?[/quote]I'm sure some feel that way, but you would have to ask them. I am a mind reader but I am not comfortable divulging their thoughts for them. ;) For the above reason I do not consider it exposure myself.

[quote]But if neophytes don't learn from books like his, then where should these beginners go to learn our craft?[/quote] Your question errantly assumes that I agree with your assumption that Josh's book is exposure; I do not agree. Am I to guess you feel they should surf the internet and get what ever they want for free?

[quote]When you say that we "should not give it away for free to total beginners," does that mean that we should charge beginners but not those who are more advanced?[/quote] Perhaps, afterall that is the established tradition within the art.

[quote]where should those beginners go to find (and pay) for learning...magic shops, the Internet, iPhone apps, television, or ?????[/quote] Yup, yup, yup, and lastly yup if it is for a fee.


[quote]And are we prostituting our art when we sell magic?[/quote] A rather large step beyond the discussion but I will entertain it because you are a friend. When the exchange of money for information is one which is commensurate in showing appropriate interest and commitment (as is the standard of today's society in the US for example) then no offense has occured. This is, again, a long standing tradition in the art. When one gives it away for free one is giving away the milk AND THE COW!!!

[quote]And what constitutes exposure? What trick(s), effect(s) or principle(s) are too precious to be shared?[/quote]Giving it away to passers by with NO IDEA OF THEIR INTEREST OR COMMITMENT is what constitutes exposure. The only difference between Scum School and the Masked Magician is one was on TV and the other is on podcast.

[quote]How did some things get into the hands of the general public in the first place to now be relegated and considered "public domain"?[/quote]Misguided magicians.

[quote]And who determines which tricks or effects or principles are "acceptable" to re-package and re-publish because they are already in the "public domain"?[/quote]By your reasoning are you perfectly fine with the Masked Magician exposures which dealt with what you are calling "public domain" tricks?

[quote]Who are and where are the "Magic Police"?[/quote]Didn't you ride that saddle at one point?

[quote]Going down this road is a slippery slope.[/quote] Going the direction you are going is more slippery. The next stop is finding PS3 on a torrent and they tell the IP, "We are just teaching."

[quote]We did not want to take the role of the international Magic Police.[/quote]"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing". -Edmund Burke

[quote]What is the price of admission and who gets to play?
[/quote]The price of admission is a show of honest interest and commitment to the art. Not just the ability to use google and wait for a podcast to load.

Dodd, why don't you come out and make a roundtable with Shwood and me on the issue of exposing magic tricks for free on the internet. That IS all he is doing. And let him know I'm certainly not impressed he is hiding behind his twitter followers.
Message: Posted by: magicnewswire (Dec 4, 2009 05:49AM)
Happy to do so Tom. There is only one problem. I live on the East coast and the time and effort I put into the Magic Newswire and the podcast is in return for virtually no financial compensation. I give it all away for free after all simply because I love an art form that I have been involved in since I was in elementary school. We have a significant and ever expanding audience, but very few offer even the smallest donation. And if you think that the revenue received from the few advertisers that we have is appropriate compensation for the effort that goes into the production, you'd be sadly mistaken. In fact, I have been carrying a banner for the Magic Café on the site since before we interviewed Steve on the podcast and did so Gratis to help promote what should be one of the most vibrant communities for a free and open discussion of the art. Unless you are financing the costs associated with traveling to and from California to include Airfare, accommodations and food, that will not happen. If we do schedule it, we should invite Penn and Teller to join us.

Thanks for taking time to reply. As I said earlier in this thread, every comment makes me think about the issue from a different angle.

As to Brian "Hiding," I have no direct connection to Brian, Scam School or Revision 3 beyond what you have as a viewer. Email or Twitter him. He's always been very easy to contact.
Message: Posted by: DiopticTurtle (Dec 4, 2009 07:30AM)
In my opinion, when you hire a magician, you are hiring a performance, not a trick. The tricks are just one aspect of a good magician. I've sat a few Society of American Magician meetings, and I can tell you, the best magicians don't, in fact, do a lot of magic in the sense of slight of hand, or card tricks, or magic rings. There is no trick that no one sees coming. Every time a magician asks me to pick a card, I immediately know that I will see that card again real soon. Every time a magician opens his hand slowly, I know that whatever was in there at the start of the trick is gone. If you have a pulse, you know how the trick will work. The real magic is making the audience truly believe that it won't. The real magic is getting the audience completely engaged in the process, getting them to believe that maybe, just this once, two plus two will equal five, to the point where you would rather send a call from your girlfriend to voicemail rather than miss part of the routine. The tricks are the easy part.

[quote]

(Referring to “proper” venues and mediums of teaching magic)This has absolutely NOTHING to do with the medium of exchanging information. It has EVERYTHING to do with the transaction of exchanging information. In this case the information is given for FREE to ANYONE who opens the TV Guide of this generation (google) and looks for secrets to magic tricks. (Tom Cuts, 12/4/09)

[/quote]

Firstly, *** these kids today, with their rap music, and fornication, and their pokemans and GEDDOF MY LAWN!
Just thought we should be on the same page, crotchety-wise.
Secondly, I regrettably must yield to the declaration that the exchange of information is a transaction. You can't always get something for nothing. But to me, information is worthless. Knowing how to do something does not mean you can do that something. I am familiar with the controls of a helicopter, as I've seen numerous specials on TV, and videos on the internet about them. However, I have no doubt in my mind that were I to grab hold of the controls of a helicopter, I would make a sudden and very terminal landing. Similarly, I am familiar with the technique known as “The Human Jack-o'-Lantern”. Does this mean that I can stick a lit match in my mouth without burning myself? No.
Information breeds confidence. Confidence, while important, does remarkably little on its own. Confidence is, however, one of the fundamental components of mastery. It is usually gained through practice, after failing countless times and then succeeding countless times. With confidence, practice becomes easier.
Can I flawlessly force a card to a volunteer just because I saw Brian Brushwood do it once? No, but I can start practicing.
Also, I would hope that your main point of contention would be the “free” part, not the “anyone” part. I usually don't like it when people exclude others because they perceive a difference.

[quote]

The intended audience is clearly people who want to learn the secrets of magic tricks for free. (Tom Cuts, 12/4/09)

[/quote]

I feel that the target audience is people who want to do magic, but don't know how to get started. As I've stated before, Scam School is a very accessible, very fun show. His character is easily likeable, and he gives a practical demonstration as well as an explanation. I have seen several instruction DVDs from magicians, and it is difficult to qualify why I like Scam School better than I like those DVDs. If you don't get Food Network where you are, I apologize, but this example is too good to pass up. To me, the DVDs are like the very serious cooking shows. Giada at Home, Semi-Homemade with Sandra Lee, Tyler Florence's Ultimate, Bobby Flay's Boy Meets Grill. Watch any of those shows. Then watch Alton Brown's Good Eats. It is much more engaging to the non-cook, but serves to bring him into the culinary world. I am sure many professional chefs find it trite and oversimplifying, but it is designed for the person who has an interest in food, but isn't a chef. I would say that Good Eats is a good comparison to Scam School but when Alton Brown teaches his audience how to prepare sushi, there isn't a minor riot and all around call for the blood of the heretic on a message board.

[quote]

(Referring to Scam School's audience) No display of interest to perform. No exchange of monetary gain. No demostration of commitment to the art. (Tom Cuts, 12/4/09)

[/quote]

It is true, that there is no way to guarantee that whomever pulls up those videos on Youtube will want to perform any of the tricks. However, if my conclusions about the target audience are correct, it will inspire more people to want to perform.
In my opinion, the fact that he goes out on tours, and appears on talk-shows, and teaches magic on the street to interested parties demonstrates a commitment to the art above the norm. It takes comparatively much less effort to perform the trick than it does to teach it.


Also... Tom... Scum School? Seriously? And we were doing such a good job about not name-calling up until this point...
And, forgive my ignorance... But what exactly is a morray? A cursory “TV Guide of my generation” search assumed I was refering to eels.

[quote]

(In reference to whether a beginner should go through an apprenticeship to demonstrate their interest or not) I was taught he should do SOMETHING which shows his or her earnest interest. Scum School asks for nothing of the sort. (Tom Cuts, 12/4/09)

[/quote]

I believe that interest is key to passion in all things, including magic. However, I don't think that anyone should ask nor demand to be shown interest before they are allowed to learn. Desire to learn can't be measured, and should not be judged.

[quote]

Scott, is it necessary to teach highly progressive techniques to absolute beginners to get their interest? (Tom Cuts, 12/4/09)

[/quote]

No, it isn't necessary. But it is fun, and interesting. Some people get bored with the entry-level magic. Foam rabbits and handkerchiefs are neat and all, but not always the kind of trick people want to learn, and unless you believe that certain tricks should only be able to be performed by certain people, there isn't anything wrong with people learning the tricks they're interested in, or are practical to them first. Is there anything wrong with learning multiplication before you learn addition?

[quote]

Great point, lets contact Lance and find out what the first tricks he learned were and what his mentors expected in return before devulging the truly diabolical methods.(Tom Cuts, 12/4/09)

[/quote]

He did not say “becoming Lance Burton” he said “becoming the next Lance Burton”. Unless you truly do not believe in natural talent in any form, let's be serious. One does not become the next Houdini by copying Houdini.

[quote]

(Referring to The Masked Magician and possibly other televised acts like it) I have heard a few instances where those shows sparked interest in new magic enthusiasts. Does that make those shows right? Of course not. And for the same reason Scum School is not right. Both foster from the very beginning a lack of respect for The Magicians Code. (Tom Cuts, 12/4/09)

[/quote]

I have perused the duly approved Code of Ethics, and regarding The Masked Magician, I believe that they do violate the first article, in reference to exposure. They willfully expose to the public, the inner workings of the tricks and illusions. I find Scam School to be an instructional source. He does not perform a trick, then give them the answer and leave. He performs the trick, and then teaches, that is to say, spends time and effort, to them how to perform said trick. One would have to agree, that is not exposure, that is instruction.

[quote]

(In reference to a question posed, regarding whether beginners should be charged but not advanced magicians) Perhaps, afterall that is the established tradition within the art. (Tom Cuts, 12/4/09)

[/quote]

So newer magicians are less worthy of learning tricks? Senior magicians should get what they want for free while newer magicians have to pay their way? I didn't realize the path to being a great magician was paved with expended dollar bills.
In art, tradition is what people who are afraid cling to when the winds of change blow, but they are inevitably swept up.

[quote]

(Referring to whether selling magic is prostitution or not) When the exchange of money for information is one which is commensurate in showing appropriate interest and commitment (as is the standard of today's society in the US for example) then no offense has occured. This is, again, a long standing tradition in the art. When one gives it away for free one is giving away the milk AND THE COW!!! (Tom Cuts, 12/4/09)

[/quote]

[quote]

I was taught he should do SOMETHING which shows his or her earnest interest. (Tom Cuts, 12/4/09)

[/quote]

So to you, the appropriate commitment to magic is to pony up a fistful of cash. Answered your own ambiguity there.
Selling magic to an audience, specifically charging admission to a performance, or performing tricks for a beer, is not prostitution, that is commerce. Selling magic to another magician for him to perform is the part that's wrong to me. The ties that bind the fraternity of magicians are apparently slimmer than a dollar bill. The trick should be shared for the sake of the performance, not for the sake of the cash.

I'm done quoting Tom; the rest of that post is far too nonlinear to follow.

All performance is about the same thing. The connection between the audience and the performer. Every single member of the audience has a tie to the performer, and the performer is manipulating that tie to create. Whether it's through music, or comedy, or magic, it's not the trick or the song or the joke the audience comes to see. It is the manipulation of their emotions and perceptions that makes the show. Show a man a trick, and entertain him for a day. Teach a man a trick, and a chain reaction starts.

I think the real fear is that you will be performing some day, and someone will expose you mid-trick. Because the content is distributed freely, you fear that people will know, and be uninterested. I have seen the “Is this your card” trick hundreds of times. And yet, every time, I always believe there is a chance that it won't be my card. I know how it works. I know that he knows exactly where my card is. I know he knows I know. But that doesn't cheapen the trick. Because it's not about the trick. During a good performance, no one would think to say “It's under his hat”.
Message: Posted by: Pazy (Dec 4, 2009 09:06AM)
While I would never presume to know as much about magic as any of you on this forum but I would like to put forward the point of a layman in terms of magic. Before I started watching Scam School I thought magic was stupid and everytime I saw an advertisement for a magician, famous or local, I didn't care and thought they were stupid for attempting a career in magic in this day and age. I didn't start watching Scam School as way to learn the secrets of magic and to them go up to a magician and laugh at him, I originally started watching purely as a peice of entertainment. But slowly Scam School has built up in me a love of magic I never knew I could have, I'm looking around for magic shows to go to and trying to learn some basic magic things (though frankly I'm still laughable since physical coordination was never my strong suit).
I personally think Scam School is bringing in new magic fans, either as students or budding magician themselves. I could never deny there will be a few people who watch it to think of themselves better than magician however. For me to condemn Scam School, and Brian himself, for showing how to do Magic is to condemn many new magician and new media forms (which it should be noted that every art form has had its struggle with in some way or another) and I find that an incredibly short sighted thing to do that could ultimately bring ruin to magic. The reason I say this is that I read this post days ago but I didn't want to post because I feared entertaining the wall of secrecy, and to an outside eye scorn, that magicians have built up. Brian Brushwood doesn't appear to have that same scorn for non-magicians and readily encourages anyone who sees his show and to then attempt whatever is shown themselves. He often tells viewers more advanced versions of the trick that it could progress onto and ways to make it unique to each performer which I feel breeds, for those like me who had a latent love, a love of magic and magicians.
This is how I feel on the matter, I can see how people might feel love for the magician's code and the need to protect the secret but I feel that new media (which Brian is using) can breed a new generation of magic fans and magic performers especially if the magic community fully embraced him.
Message: Posted by: Scott Wells (Dec 4, 2009 10:10AM)
Thanks, Tom, for your thoughtful replies to my individual questions on exposure of our craft. I guess I was thinking and speaking on a much broader scale. Thanks for bringing it back on point to Scam School. You do have some valid points on the issue and you made me chuckle on a couple. BTW, you had a misspelling in your posts...you spelled it "scum", ha, ha. I know it had to be an oversight since you are above puerile name-calling.

I forgot that this has become a "bash Brian" thread. And as such, I choose not to ride that wagon. Perhaps this issue of exposure is best discussed live when next we get together, on a podcast, or in another forum here on the Café.

yours,
Scott
Message: Posted by: Tom Cutts (Dec 4, 2009 10:56AM)
Oops, I did do that. ;) It was on purpose and I should clarify that I mean it literally not personally. I believe that what Brian is doing within the show is scummy, in that it cheapens (dirties) the art in its approach to broadening the dispersion of magic methods, and in what the show links magic to.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Dec 4, 2009 12:02PM)
It's kind of like an American Scientist betraying/giving/teaching/exposing our U.S. Secrets to the Russians ... Of course the Russians will support him :)

So Brian has got the Twits to invade the Café.

Hmmm ... Support from those who want everything for FREE while True Magicians must bear the financial burden.

Seems a bit Twisted and totally against The Magicians Code.

Brains claims that he will not expose things that magicians are currently using .... What a bunch of Hooey!
He's exposed several things that "I" use on a Daily basis!

I'm glad Dodd has recorded these so we can actually hold peoples "Feet to the fire" when they try to make 1 equal 2 :)
Message: Posted by: Pazy (Dec 4, 2009 12:27PM)
[quote]
So Brian has got the Twits to invade the Café.
[/quote]
Brian never asked any of us to do anything, we came here of our own volition. I choose to support Scam School because I think its a great show that gave me my love of magic and will mean that I give my money to see magicians perform live. Had Scam School not existed I wouldn't love magic, I wouldn't want to learn and I wouldn't be planning to go see live shows. I think that Scam School is a great entry point. In fact its about the only entry point for most people, the magician community isn't known for being the most accepting of new people (as this whole thread will attest to).
Message: Posted by: magicnewswire (Dec 4, 2009 12:40PM)
Hopefully you'll not be put off of your interest in magic by the less than warm welcome that you are receiving from a few. Not everyone operates under the motto "We're not happy until you're not happy." This just happens to be a hot topic.

Hopefully we'll see you explore magic in its various forms in this and other areas of the Café.
Message: Posted by: Tom Cutts (Dec 4, 2009 01:26PM)
Dodd, it is a poor characterization to paint those who uphold the Magician's Code and speak out when it is violated in such negative terms. But then after the "My Dad can beat up your dad!" response you gave regarding your Penn and Teller comment I'm not so surprised. If Brian needs someone else to come speak for him, like here, then what is the point?

Furthermore, P&T make no bones about whizzin' all over the Magician's Code. I can respect that they are clear about what they are doing.
Message: Posted by: magicnewswire (Dec 4, 2009 01:59PM)
[quote]
On 2009-12-04 14:26, Tom Cutts wrote:
Dodd, it is a poor characterization to paint those who uphold the Magician's Code and speak out when it is violated in such negative terms. But then after the "My Dad can beat up your dad!" response you gave regarding your Penn and Teller comment I'm not so surprised. If Brian needs someone else to come speak for him, like here, then what is the point?
[/quote]

I am not speaking for Brian in any way. I speak only for myself. He certainly has not asked me to do so. I don't have time at the moment to go back over my every post in this thread, but I feel certain that I have only offered my own personal opinion and responded primarily to inquiries directed to me.

In fact, most of my responses were to offer clarification where there was misinformation that may have originated in the show that is under discussion, or to admit where I was misinformed after it was pointed out to me.

As to Twitter, Brian did post something on Twitter, but nowhere that I can find a request by him that anyone come here to defend him. The accusation was that he had summoned some sort of minion to his defense.

He said:
"Magician Scott Wells totally gets it, posts a thoughtful insight on whether Scam School is magic exposure (14th post): http://bit.ly/7HbNJt"

As to P&T, I just threw them as a joke as I think that what should and could be an interesting and insighful conversation had become a bit too strident. Sorry that it fell so flat. Yes, they have given the magician's code the collective finger.

Keep in mind... I ONLY HOSTED THE CONVERSATION... and offered my opinions and thoughts. I appreciate the ongoing dialogue where well reasoned and presented in a manner to inspire conversation. I pretty much ignore being talked "at" instead of talked "to".
Message: Posted by: Tom Cutts (Dec 4, 2009 02:09PM)
Dodd,

The speaking for him reference was in regard to P&T speaking for him, not you. Which it now turns out was not a serious thing.

[quote]
On 2009-12-04 08:30, DiopticTurtle wrote:
And, forgive my ignorance... But what exactly is a morray? A cursory “TV Guide of my generation” search assumed I was refering to eels.[/quote]
OK now I'm laughing. Yup, it was late and I didn't stop to review my spelling completely. The word is 'mores". Either you have a very dry sense of humor, or you have never heard the term Social Mores.

But none of that is the funny part. This is: I had an eel as a pet and his name was Mr. Unagi, although technically he was an Unago. So we get a call back to the sushi topic.

I will address your other issues later today. A lot else to do before setting you straight. ;)
Message: Posted by: magicnewswire (Dec 4, 2009 02:18PM)
[quote]
On 2009-12-04 15:09, Tom Cutts wrote:
Dodd,
The speaking for him reference was in regard to P&T speaking for him, not you. Which it now turns out was not a serious thing.
[/quote]

Ahhh.. I missed that entirely. Sorry to have derailed things in any way. Never considered that it might have been read to mean that.

As to "Dodd, it is a poor characterization to paint those who uphold the Magician's Code and speak out when it is violated in such negative terms." I was referring to comments that were dismissive to the possibility that someone might have a valid opinion on the topic simply because they were new to the neighborhood, not that defending the"Code" was a bad thing.

BTW... I ran into a girl with a Husky that she named Akita the other day. Sea Eel vs Freshwater and Siberian Dog VS Japanese... Very confusing.. ;-)
___________________________________________
Our Most Recent Podcasts:
• [url=http://mnw.squarespace.com/magicnewsfeed/2009/11/30/this-week-in-magic-episode-2.html]This Week in Magic #2 :: Brian Brushwood[/url]
• [url=http://mnw.squarespace.com/magicnewsfeed/2009/11/23/this-week-in-magic-episode-1.html]This Week in Magic #1 :: Jim Callahan[/url]
• [url=http://mnw.squarespace.com/magicnewsfeed/2009/12/3/mnw-178-julie-eng.html]Spirit of Magic #178 :: Julie Eng[/url]
• [url=http://mnw.squarespace.com/magicnewsfeed/2009/11/26/mnw-177-aaron-fisher.html]Spirit of Magic #177 :: Aaron Fisher[/url]

BTW.. I am sure that the conversation will continue tomorrow night when we record the next This Week In Magic. In addition to Scott Wells, Cameron Ramsay and myself, new panel member Chase Goforth will join us. Our special guest will be CJ Johnson to talk about marketing yourself as a magic performer. In addition, we'll have a guest co-host, Al the Only who is visiting Scott this weekend. Should prove to be an interesting mix of personalities!

Posted: Dec 5, 2009 10:46pm
One other point, I very enjoy a constructive conversation that makes me consider my position on any issue. I hope that you all will continue to offer such on any topic that is discussed on the any of the Magic Newswire podcasts!
Message: Posted by: phaddad2 (Dec 5, 2009 11:27PM)
Pazy,

I play cards with my cousins every week and there is at least one argument during the game. When the night is over we are still friends and look forward to next weeks game. that to me is the same thing that is going on here. A little spat, difference of opinion but when all is said and done we all still love magic and look forward to the next hot topic.

Pete
Message: Posted by: PSYSHADOW (Dec 6, 2009 07:08AM)
Every time I read about differences of opinion, I am reminded of a school teacher, many years ago, who shouted at me in class (because I was daydreaming) that I'd 'Never amount to anything' !).

I never knew anyone to be more psychic than her !
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Dec 6, 2009 06:17PM)
Everyone wants SOMETHING FOR FREE ... Right?
Why wouldn't they? Of course they will support the one who gives it out .... Unless you have some sense of ethics or CODE ... CODE OF ETHICS :)

Magicians have such a Code and as you say ... It is being WIZZED ON.

Most don't consider the WHIZZERS to be Magicians anymore ... Simply OPPORTUNISTS.

They can make a buck by Whizzing on the rest of us and somehow say they aren't doing so.

And Pazy ... If you think that Scam School is the only entry point to Magic for most people you couldn't be more WRONG and someone needs to tell you. As you mature in magic you will see that the "Old Timers" were right all along.

KEEP TO THE CODE !!!!!!
Message: Posted by: DiopticTurtle (Dec 6, 2009 09:53PM)
Please, I'd prefer to be called "Whizard". :D
And clearly there are other entry points to magic, otherwise there wouldn't be any magicians. But apparently not everyone should be allowed to learn magic; only those who've paid their way. That's the idea I can't get behind. If you want to make money with magic, do shows, open a magic supply store. Don't expect to be paid just because you know something. I know a lot of advanced physics, and if someone walked up to me and asked how to find the coefficient of friction in a system, I wouldn't say "go buy my DVD", I would show them for free. If I was planning on making money with it, I would have gotten a job that paid me to use that knowledge, as opposed to just having it.
If following the code to the letter is so important, why not issue and suspend licenses to avoid this sort of situation?
Also, Psychic, please, lay off the caps lock and shift keys, would ya? There's emphasis, and then there's that.
Message: Posted by: Tom Cutts (Dec 7, 2009 12:27PM)
[quote]
On 2009-12-03 21:20, Nigromante wrote:
I do have a passion for this art, and a desire to reelevate it to the upper echelons of entertain where it belongs.[/quote] In what way did you demostrate that to someone in order to get access to this information?

[quote]I can't buy all the books and dvds and tricks I'd like to.[/quote]
What most people fail to realise is that they are unprepared for the responsibilities which come with knowing certain elegant methods. They exhibit their impatience with what they have in their reaching for better methods without fully exploring the ones they already have at their disposal, and the lessons those methods would have taught them. These people don't want to learn magic, they want to learn some tricks.

But the error here is on the part of the provider, who failed to qualify his providee. That is the person who devalued magic by not teaching the lesson of valuing the method. That falls at the feet of Brian Brushwood.

And yes, like it or not, monetary exchange is an accepted qualifyer for one's interest and or sacrifice to have something. It is not perfect but it has proven to be a good general qualifier in the absence of personal interraction. If dislike for the system of monetary exchange had been the reason I'm sure it would have come up in the discussion. It didn't... because it isn't the reason. The real reason is Brian makes a buck off the gig, and he makes more by giving away the secrets, than he would by charging for them. His sponsors foot the bill.

So next time I get a Netflix mailer I'm sending it back to them with a letter explaining that they are supporting a person who is devaluing an art form, and for that reason I will not do business with them.

[quote] Where the only currency required is desire and passion. [/quote]Again, in what way did you exhibit your desire and passion to Brian, or his producers.. or his sponsors?

[quote]I understand the need to protect our art, and our secrets and methods[/quote]Not proven by anything you have expressed here and not by your actions of supporting someone who gives out material with absolutely no system of guaging the recipient's desire and commitment.

[quote]but I refuse to accept the idea that we should deny those with desire and passion on the grounds that they don't have the cash.[/quote] I never said that, did I.

[quote]Those who seek out these videos to learn the methods and expose us aren't real specs anyways.[/quote] Further proof that you don't know much about performing magic.

[quote]I know this is long, but I'm tired of the worn out idea that Youtube is going to destroy us. It's not and in fact if used correctly and embraced, it will do nothing but enlarge and increase the strength of our art.
[/quote]Unfortunately, it is being used incorrectly. How do you propose to correct that, Frank?

****************************************************************
[quote]
On 2009-12-04 08:30, DiopticTurtle wrote:
I've sat a few Society of American Magician meetings, and I can tell you, the best magicians don't, in fact, do a lot of magic in the sense of slight of hand, or card tricks, or magic rings.[/quote] In that one statement you both exemplify your lack of qualifications to be taken seriously in this discussion, and exemplify what is wrong with the Scum School way of exposing. Tommy Wonder and Fred Kapps are turning over in their graves.

For the rest of the readers: there is a difference between upholding tradition simply because it is tradition, and upholding tradition because it is right. Simply because technology CAN do something doesn't make it RIGHT.

Brian will be paying consequences for his actions proving he doesn't respect the magician's code. Too many who have entered through that doorway have already suffered consequences in their utter lack of valuing an elegant method. It just won't be clear to them until it is too late. Some will find the err of their ways. Most will not.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Dec 7, 2009 06:22PM)
[quote]
On 2009-12-06 22:53, DiopticTurtle wrote:
Please, I'd prefer to be called "Whizard". :D
And clearly there are other entry points to magic, otherwise there wouldn't be any magicians. But apparently not everyone should be allowed to learn magic; only those who've paid their way. That's the idea I can't get behind. If you want to make money with magic, do shows, open a magic supply store. Don't expect to be paid just because you know something. I know a lot of advanced physics, and if someone walked up to me and asked how to find the coefficient of friction in a system, I wouldn't say "go buy my DVD", I would show them for free. If I was planning on making money with it, I would have gotten a job that paid me to use that knowledge, as opposed to just having it.
If following the code to the letter is so important, why not issue and suspend licenses to avoid this sort of situation?
Also, Psychic, please, lay off the caps lock and shift keys, would ya? There's emphasis, and then there's that.
[/quote]

Unfortunately Scum School is made up by thinkers such as yourself. Someone with no true ethical concepts who wants to be Spoon Fed everything for FREE!
A LEECH. That fully describes a person who wants Something for Nothing.

KEEP TO THE CODE !!!!!!

I suggest you put Brian Brushwood on with Tom Cutts and Jim Callahan.
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (Dec 7, 2009 06:52PM)
[quote]
On 2009-12-06 00:27, phaddad2 wrote:
Pazy,

I play cards with my cousins every week and there is at least one argument during the game. When the night is over we are still friends and look forward to next weeks game. that to me is the same thing that is going on here. A little spat, difference of opinion but when all is said and done we all still love magic and look forward to the next hot topic.

Pete
[/quote]

Good stuff, thanks. Reminds me of the old cartoon, sheep dog and wolf.

Candin
Message: Posted by: phaddad2 (Dec 7, 2009 07:03PM)
Great cartoon ralph and george
Message: Posted by: magicnewswire (Dec 7, 2009 08:18PM)
As promised in an earlier post, we've continued the conversation in the latest episode of This Week in Magic which was posted a bit earlier today.

Our special guest is CJ Johnson and we continue our conversation on marketing, exposure and the many ways that you might be leaving money on the table. In addition to our regular co-hosts Scott Wells, Cameron Ramsay and myself, we've added a new member to the panel Chase Goforth. Al The Only was also in town visiting Scott and agreed to participate in the conversation. IMHO, there are some great ideas in the marketing portion of this episode for every performer!

[url=http://bit.ly/8mZ9oz]Listen to the latest episode HERE[/url]
Message: Posted by: DiopticTurtle (Dec 8, 2009 11:30AM)
[quote]

In that one statement you both exemplify your lack of qualifications to be taken seriously in this discussion, and exemplify what is wrong with the Scum School way of exposing. Tommy Wonder and Fred Kapps are turning over in their graves. (Tom Cutts, 12/7/09)

[/quote]

Please don't insult me by taking a quote out of context. I like to build my case by intelligent writing. Sometimes that takes more than once sentence.

[quote]

...there is a difference between upholding tradition simply because it is tradition, and upholding tradition because it is right. Simply because technology CAN do something doesn't make it RIGHT. (Tom Cutts, 12/7/09)

[/quote]

I completely agree. However, I believe that rules change over time. With new advances in technology, come new challenges and ethical dilemmas, and they must be constantly considered and be implemented into revisions. While there are no standing clarifications on this issue, as I feel magic is too poorly organized to widely accomplish much in this vein, it is up to the individual to decide for themselves what is right or wrong. I see nothing wrong with Scam School, but instead see a group of outdated elitists who attack from behind the curtain of tradition and morality. Things change, especially morality. Hitting your wife used to be accepted. Believing you were better than someone because of the color of your skin used to be accepted. People used to believe that they were better than someone else because they were born to different parents. More specifically, you seem to be fighting the internet itself. It represents a free exchange of ideas and information, and I can understand why that would be harmful to the old ways of magic. But remember, nothing stays the same. The times move, and it is up to you whether you want to move with them or try to slow them down.


[quote]

Brian will be paying consequences for his actions proving he doesn't respect the magician's code. Too many who have entered through that doorway have already suffered consequences in their utter lack of valuing an elegant method. It just won't be clear to them until it is too late. Some will find the err of their ways. Most will not. (Tom Cutts, 12/7/09)

[/quote]

You keep making these vague threats upon Brian and magicians like him. “...will be paying the consequences...” “...won't be clear to them until it is too late.” What exactly do you have in mind? Are you going to break our thumbs? Maybe confiscate our top hats and rabbits? I am curious to see how you plan on enforcing this imagined slight..
I get the feeling that the people who “suffered consequences” were people who were treated to an undue verbal abuse session by people like you. Do you think that they left saying “Wow, he's right” or thinking, “Wow, what a jerk”? And you also generalize that because they came to magic from a free, widely distributed source that they don't value an “elegant method”? Where does that assumption come in? And what do you mean “elegant method”? Flowery writing is nice and all, but it's better if you make sense. On that note, “err” is a verb, not a noun.



[quote]

Unfortunately Scum School is made up by thinkers such as yourself. Someone with no true ethical concepts who wants to be Spoon Fed everything for FREE!
A LEECH. That fully describes a person who wants Something for Nothing. (Psychic Samurai, 12/7/09)

[/quote]

Again, I am unfairly characterized as an amoral person because I believe in the exchange of knowledge without the pricetag. I am no more of a leech than your average public school student! Although thinking about that, I might not want to make that comparison. :P
Giving something and getting nothing is how I live my life. What I have, I am happy to give. I am constantly in search of more to learn, and more to give back. If I can learn how to perform magic to entertain someone by either studying a free show, or by buying expensive and usually unhelpful DVDs, there is no contest.
I am sure there are people out there who aren't in it for the same reason I am, but it's unfair to nail the Scam School viewers to the cross because you generalize their motives.
Oh, and just a caution here, I believe that calling someone an unethical leech, directly or indirectly, is against board rules.

Also, an unslanted question. Why does my post count still say zero? Is it going to just stay down until I meet a certain number? It's not important, it's just something that's been bugging me.
Message: Posted by: phaddad2 (Dec 8, 2009 02:39PM)
Turtle,
I agree with much of what you said but, as an older magician it is hard not to long for the days when much of this information was limited to one on one teachings and books that you had to make more of an effort to locate and read. Much of the video generation is learn a trick perform it once then you forget it and get a new trick to perform. It seems that today(at times myself included) we don't perform the effect as much as we do tricks.
Pete
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Dec 8, 2009 07:10PM)
Hitting your wife has NEVER been acceptable behavior (Not by ANYONE I've ever met in the US or abroad) ... You LIE!

And it is that Dark Side of you that supports breaking the Magicians Code!
Message: Posted by: magicnewswire (Dec 8, 2009 09:58PM)
[quote]
On 2009-12-08 20:10, Psychic Samurai wrote:
Hitting your wife has NEVER been acceptable behavior (Not by ANYONE I've ever met in the US or abroad) ... You LIE!

And it is that Dark Side of you that supports breaking the Magicians Code!
[/quote]

Ok.. I hate to even say anything on this. Obviously, there is no reason to hit anyone unless you are defending yourself or your family. Bullying is just wrong. I have a son with a disability, and you can imagine how hard it is for me, as an ex-military spec ops guy to deal with teasing and bullying in todays public school environment.

That said,you could not be more wrong to think that society, through the ages, hasn't seen it as acceptable to hit your wife. Look up the history of chattel. Wives were considered property in many societies, and in some that is still the case. Saying that it is not so is simply naive.

That said, touch/threaten my wife or son, and you'll have a world of hurt to deal with. Sadly , not all cultures consider women on par with men. Keep in mind that women were only given the option to vote for their representatives in the US only a few decades ago.

Therefore, his statement is not a "lie" as you characterized it.

There is a huge construction boom in Dubai. There are BILLIONS of dollars being wasted in these projects to construct separate hallways for men and women. In many middle eastern cultures, other men, not the husbands or families of the woman in question, can assault a woman in the street that is considered to be dressed inappropriately or to behave in a way that they see as unacceptable. Dare I even mention the fact that female circumcision is a common practice in many cultures. Sad but true.

I could go on and on, but you have surely learned from your error by now.
Message: Posted by: magicnewswire (Dec 9, 2009 09:44AM)
Scam School was just named by iTunes as one of the "Top Podcast for 2009" . This is the second year in a row that the show has been recognized in the annual list. [url=http://bit.ly/6liyo4] READ MORE[/url] 2nd Year in a Row!
Message: Posted by: Tom Cutts (Dec 9, 2009 10:29AM)
Turtle, it's not out of context. It is what you wrote. I just can't take anything you say seriously after such a foolish statement. You don't understand greatness and you have no idea what an elegant method is. And this is precisely the typical thinking for people who learn secrets without learning the responsibilities which go along with them.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Dec 9, 2009 12:07PM)
I REPEAT (Despite all the double talk) BEATING YOUR WIFE IS UNACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR !!!! PERIOD !!!!

Thank's Dodd for helping to prove my point.

On your podcast you agree that the exposure is OK since very few people see it but now they seem to be one of the biggest exposers of all ... They get an award for revealing magic secrets ... WOW !!!!!!
Message: Posted by: DiopticTurtle (Dec 9, 2009 03:52PM)
[quote]

Turtle,
I agree with much of what you said but, as an older magician it is hard not to long for the days when much of this information was limited to one on one teachings and books that you had to make more of an effort to locate and read. Much of the video generation is learn a trick perform it once then you forget it and get a new trick to perform. It seems that today(at times myself included) we don't perform the effect as much as we do tricks.
Pete
(Pete ((phaddad2)), 12/8/09)

[/quote]

I'd be one of the first to agree that my generation is ruining everything. But then again, so did your generation. And your parents' generation. Splitting off from the traditions and creating a new norm is part of aging. I was speaking with my father earlier, and he expressed to me the shock of how life had progressed. My father was part of the 'flower child' generation (although he swears he never was one of them), the generation best known for rebelling against the system. The real revelation came to him in that his generation was the one that created Gitmo, and instituted the DHS. He realized his generation had become The Man. Currently my generation is in the rebellious youth stage, and I feel will be until we have our own rebellious children. I realize that I'm making my point in a fairly roundabout way, but there are and will always be people who don't have the focus to learn the trick and the effect, and instead focus on the part that they perceive will have the most impact. Unfortunately, I feel they usually choose wrong. The people who move from trick to trick will likely lose interest in magic altogether.

[quote]

Turtle, it's not out of context. It is what you wrote. I just can't take anything you say seriously after such a foolish statement. You don't understand greatness and you have no idea what an elegant method is. And this is precisely the typical thinking for people who learn secrets without learning the responsibilities which go along with them. (Tom Cutts, 12/9/09)

[/quote]

The reason we establish context, Mr. Cutts, is to properly and fairly convey the tone and intent of the person quoted. Otherwise I could do this :

[quote]

Turtle... I just...take anything you say seriously...You... understand greatness... (Tom Cutts, 12/9/09)

[/quote]

Probably not exactly the point you meant to get across. If one does not establish proper context, all one is doing is cherry-picking the words to argue against with no respect for the intent of the person quoted. I find that sort of practice extremely immature and insulting, don't you?
If insult was not intended, I believe that you must have missed the point of my post.

[quote]

I REPEAT (Despite all the double talk) BEATING YOUR WIFE IS UNACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR !!!! PERIOD !!!!

Thank's Dodd for helping to prove my point.

On your podcast you agree that the exposure is OK since very few people see it but now they seem to be one of the biggest exposers of all ... They get an award for revealing magic secrets ... WOW !!!!!!
(Psychic Samurai, 12/9/09)

[/quote]

First off, I'd like to say that fourteen exclamation points across four complete sentences has got to be some kind of record.
Secondly, it's history. You can't deny that women were considered unequal, to the point of being property in many cultures, as magicnewswire pointed out. A few years ago, every few days there would be a headline about some poor woman being stoned to death in her country because she wanted to exercise a basic freedom that we enjoy daily. It is sad and I find it reprehensible. Unfortunately that doesn't make it any less real.

And they didn't get an award for exposing secrets, they got an award for making an interesting and popular show. Being mature costs nothing.


And yet again, I am being told what I do and do not understand or appreciate. How exactly do you measure my quantity of respect? Dedication and respect are concepts, not concrete nouns. You tell me that people have to be judged worthy before they can be accepted and taught the 'higher level' tricks. I asked you how. No direct answer, but the implication was one must buy their way into the inner circle. I asked what you meant by “elegant method” because the meaning was unclear to me. Again, the question was not addressed. I am still unsure as to what you meant. I am frankly a little offended that this is how a new member of the board is treated.
I came to this site to follow an argument, and decided to join and weigh-in because the argument was extraordinarily one-sided. It's interesting that the example I used drew more argument than the points I've been making. It's sort of frustrating that the actual argument points aren't being addressed. I am interested in hearing the counterpoints to these arguments, but other than assaults on my character, the responses have been devoid of real content.
I enjoy playing the devil's advocate, but in this case I side with Scam School because I truly believe it is being done an injustice. I have put myself in your position, and understand why one would be intimidated by the show and feel you have to protect the older way of doing magic, but deep down, do you really disagree with Scam School? Or do you just not want things to change?
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Dec 9, 2009 04:44PM)
So your logic is that since many have abused and beaten their wives it is just fine to abuse and expose magic secrets? RIGHT !!!!!!! :)

Scam School is exposing magic secrets that magicians still use today ... TRUE or FALSE?

Scam School is being paid for this exposure by Go-Daddy and their other sponsors ... TRUE or FALSE?

Scam School is breaking the Magicians Code ..... TRUE or FALSE?

It is obvious that you expect "Something For Nothing" ... There's a name for folks like that :)
Message: Posted by: tomterm8 (Dec 10, 2009 06:58AM)
[quote]
On 2009-12-03 15:52, magicnewswire wrote:
[quote]
On 2009-12-02 20:04, Psychic Samurai wrote:
He's exposing methods that are still used by mentalist and magicians alike.
Now what about the other dozen or so effects that he DOES Expose on Youtube for anyone to view?
[/quote]

There are only a few episodes on YouTube. Brian has done 90 shows to date and you can find them all [url=http://revision3.com/scamschool]HERE[/url]
I would be very interested in which specific episodes and effects you feel should not have been taught on the show.
[/quote]

I don't feel he should have taught blockhead, how to put out a lit cigarette on the tongue, and several similar side-show stunts. They are too dangerous.

Apart from that, I think scam school actually does more good than harm. Then again, I don't think it really teaches anything that can't be picked up from the local library. There is an expectation that you will actually present the effects taught...
Message: Posted by: magicnewswire (Dec 10, 2009 03:53PM)
Lee Asher is my guest on the latest episode of the Spirit of Magic podcast. We talk about everything from the way that magic is perceived in Asia to the exposure of magic and the role of the Internet in the education of today's new magic enthusiasts . He even compares the sharing of information to "exposure."

[url=http://bit.ly/5Jxdg6] YOU CAN LISTEN HERE[/url]
Message: Posted by: taikuutta (Dec 11, 2009 06:56AM)
Personally I have no problems with exposure. If it hurts your career, I think you should train and think more to be a better magician.

Kids are always exposing tricks, that's what kids do. If you still can't fool those kids with the same arsenal of methods, man you should really take a good look in to mirror.
Message: Posted by: ozherbie (Dec 11, 2009 04:22PM)
I'm new here and finding this discussion quite interesting. Been watching guys like David Copperfield, Criss Angel, and Penn & Teller for a LOT of years and have spent much more money than I probably should have going to a LOT of shows.

Even with that show going experience I've never actually heard what the "code of magic" actually entailed. So I did a Google search for it. Among the other pages listed ,both relevant and not, I got this link: http://www.spookclub.com/codeofethics.php

Now I find that funny that the first page I hit with the actual code written down has a frame on the right side of the page with scrolling links to literally hundreds of books and tricks for sale. That would seem to me to clearly violate rule #1 which reads, "Oppose the willful exposure to the public of any principles of the Art of Magic, or the methods employed in any magic effect or illusion."

Everyone has to start learning the art somehwere. What makes the fact that I order a book off the internet a valid choice for showing that I'm interested in magic and watching Scam School or even a Penn & Teller show an invalid choice for showing I'm interested in magic?

Of course I expect this question to be ignored by the Psychic Samauri as he's ignored every single valid question asked so far. I would however appreciate a response from others to this legitimate question.
Message: Posted by: phaddad2 (Dec 12, 2009 04:08PM)
Oz,
It does seem to be a bit of a Contradiction doesn't it. but in magic everything that happens defies logic so why shouldn't this.
Pete
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Dec 16, 2009 05:59PM)
[quote]
On 2009-12-11 17:22, ozherbie wrote:
I'm new here and finding this discussion quite interesting. Been watching guys like David Copperfield, Criss Angel, and Penn & Teller for a LOT of years and have spent much more money than I probably should have going to a LOT of shows.

Even with that show going experience I've never actually heard what the "code of magic" actually entailed. So I did a Google search for it. Among the other pages listed ,both relevant and not, I got this link: http://www.spookclub.com/codeofethics.php

Now I find that funny that the first page I hit with the actual code written down has a frame on the right side of the page with scrolling links to literally hundreds of books and tricks for sale. That would seem to me to clearly violate rule #1 which reads, "Oppose the willful exposure to the public of any principles of the Art of Magic, or the methods employed in any magic effect or illusion."

Everyone has to start learning the art somehwere. What makes the fact that I order a book off the internet a valid choice for showing that I'm interested in magic and watching Scam School or even a Penn & Teller show an invalid choice for showing I'm interested in magic?

Of course I expect this question to be ignored by the Psychic Samauri as he's ignored every single valid question asked so far. I would however appreciate a response from others to this legitimate question.
[/quote]

Gee Harry H ... How'd you get back on here? :)

Penn and teller are OPPORTUNISTS ... Not Magicians since they've broken the Magicians Code and don't deserve to be called Magicians.
Kind of like a Soviet Spy in the US selling our secrets to the Russians and then wanting to be called a good US citizen ... Just doesn't make sense :)

Scum School just gives away tricks so Go-Daddy will pay for the content and hit rates.
Message: Posted by: taikuutta (Dec 21, 2009 02:58AM)
I hope that Psychic Samurai is joking? =D
Or he is an Geekician rather than magician..
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Dec 21, 2009 07:46PM)
[quote]
On 2009-12-21 03:58, taikuutta wrote:
I hope that Psychic Samurai is joking? =D
Or he is an Geekician rather than magician..
[/quote]
Hi Harry !!!!!
Message: Posted by: taikuutta (Dec 22, 2009 07:57AM)
I'm not Harry, I'm Jose from Taikuutta.com
Someone's being a bit paranoid...
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Dec 23, 2009 05:31PM)
Right :)
So you do nothing other than call people GEEKS ... WOW ... Look in the Mirror :)
Message: Posted by: magicnewswire (Dec 23, 2009 05:38PM)
An early holiday gift for you all! The current episode of This Week in Magic features both Banachek & Danny Garcia !

Link: http://bit.ly/7mQRzm

Banacheck responds to questions on Project Alpha, discusses exposure and tells us what's coming in the update to PS1.
Message: Posted by: Matt Pulsar (Jan 13, 2010 04:49AM)
Wow, there is allot to think about on here.

First, I would like to say that I have been enjoying the "This Week in Magic," Interviews. I am listening to them out of order, which I think is an enlightening way to hear them, because of some of these controversial issues. My favorite was the new years episode, that was a priceless piece of radio. WELL DONE!!

You (and by you I mean any member of the show panel) keep referring back to the issue of exposure, and I find it comical, because its the other conversations that make the show fantastic, its like great dialogue broken up by someone asking the question "what do you think of exposure." So The Interview Question I would like to propose, is what about another kind of exposure. So often people try and get a performer to work for a discounted rate, or for free, with the wonderful excuse, "It is great exposure for you." This happens in many art forms, not just variety arts. I would love to hear the panel's thoughts on this.

Personally I go by the comeback I first heard from my good friend Cardone: "Exposure is something people die from." I believe that artists should be compensated for there work. Although compensation is something interesting to define.


Now. I have to throw in my two cents on the other exposure stuff. I listened to the Brian Brushwood episode for the first time today. He was very intelligent and had great advice about booking shows and the business side of this world.

Yet,,I just got done watching a few episodes of his show. Started by watching the controversial one ahead episode, and that seemed a little of a sell out, then the book test episode, which was funny because it would never play that well anyway. But it began with the statement that he was teaching it because someone asked about another book test. I was surprised he exposed how to escape from thumb cuffs, and then I watched the other escape bits as well. Afterwords, I just feel a little sick about the whole thing. The uneasy feeling comes from my questioning his intent. My own ethical feelings towards what he is doing stem from the reflection that I would not do that. It seems as though he got offered a sweet deal and he took it. I imagine they compensate him well, otherwise I don't see any reason for what he does here.

There is the argument that only people who are interested in learning what he puts out there are going to go to the sight, and I see what people mean by this, but at the same time, if there was not a decent flow of traffic, netflix, the videogame rental company, and godaddy would not be spending money to support him. He has a good business reason to keep exposing things to the general public, and he will most likely keep doing it as much as possible. And I just don't like that. I teach children magic in after school programs, and the first thing I do is make them take an oath that they will never reveal the secrets, and explain that they should never try and call out what is going on when another performer is working. It is that second part they have a hard time getting. People just love to be the ones who know stuff. young and old. And they love being able to say, after the show, "I'll tell you what he did, he had this ..." as you leave the table or the group or the stage. And it doesn't matter if they rely know or not, they will believe whatever they believe, and their friends will believe them. I don't see this show dealing with that human desire. Why expose a strait jacket escape? (so people will get Netflix and rent the tape perhaps?) And why in the process talk about the Lethal Weapon 2 scene with the escape as misinformation as though you are enlightening the audience? He makes it sound like magicians should be more open with their secrets, and not use the fact that people believe different things to their advantage.

Which is more preferable, a group of people watch a straight jacket escape and then afterward one says, "what they do is they dislocate their shoulder, I read that somewhere," to which the friends will most likely wonder why someone would go through such a thing. OR
"its not as hard as he makes it look, I learned that on this online show, they had a clear jacket, you could see everything."

If you begin to perform something and someone knows the method, or thinks they know the method, part of them will shut off, just like what happens when someone starts telling a joke you know already. Secrets are precious. That is why when (and it has happened to everyone on this forum,) we have that experience where we open a deck of cards and just at that some boob says, "Ohh I know this one." we are forced to slightly change the gears or say something so that everyone understands that Bob does not "know this one." Unless he is psychic, And we need Bob the boob to understand that too, so he will be engaged in the experience and not just waiting for what he thinks is going to happen to play out.

(That is unless he is thinking that "this one" is the ambitious card, because if that is the case he will be correct at least 60% of the time.)

On the flip side am I worried that my business is going to be hurt by any of this.
No.

What I don't like hearing, which I seem to hear over and over again, is that all these things are good because they bring more people to magic.

Why o Why do we want to bring more people to magic. The only people who gain from that are those who sell effects and books, or have shows like the one we are talking about.

Actual performing magicians don't gain from there being more magicians.

Part of what makes magic magical is that you don't see it all the time.

If we all didn't have one of these computers, it would be magic.
Message: Posted by: kcg5 (Jan 19, 2010 02:00PM)
To throw my thoughts in... I very much enjoy the podcasts.

P&T are very much magicians


And caps lock is pretty much the MO
Message: Posted by: magicnewswire (Jan 19, 2010 02:11PM)
Thanks Stuart! I agree. We never intended to spend as much time discussing exposure as we did. I'm glad that we've finished that cycle and have moved on to other things. Glad you're enjoying the podcasts and I appreciate any and all feedback from the listeners. After all, I am not doing them to hear myself talk.

Who would you like to hear from in future episodes of both the "Spirit of Magic" & "This Week in Magic?" I've asked this before in other places, but love to keep getting suggestions. If anyone tosses a name in the ring, please tell me why you'd like to hear from them and what topics or questions would you like to have them address. You can email me at magicnewswire@gmail.com or PM me here if you don't want to post to the forum.

[quote]
On 2009-12-23 18:31, Psychic Samurai wrote:
Right :)
So you do nothing other than call people GEEKS ... WOW ... Look in the Mirror :)
[/quote]

I know that this wasn't directed at me and that PS isn't around anymore to read it anyway, but I am the first to confess to being a geek. Fortunately, "Geek is the new black." ;-)