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Topic: Do you carry protection to gigs?
Message: Posted by: derrick (Feb 24, 2010 09:40AM)
Last night I had a new and disturbing experience. I finished up my restaurant gig, cut the line off, working about 30 minutes longer than I was being paid for and then put my things away. One of the parents pulled me aside to let me know there was a mad and intimidating looking man/father (bald, tattoos, lots of ink) that was angry I had cut the line off and that his child didn't get a balloon. When making balloons, one has to cut the line somewhere. He wasn't even at the cut off mark. He didn't complain to me or to management, but was mad enough to make other patrons uneasy. I informed our security about him and made my way out the door. I stopped at Best Buy on the way home and that's when I realized the guy had followed me there. I was looking at noise cancelling headphones when he slowly walked past without a word and just a threatening glare to let me know he was there. I informed security, went to my car and home. He didn't follow me home, and my wife is a police detective so I'm not too concerned about my personal protection at home, but it wouldn't be hard, with the internet today, to find out what my personal address is. So according to just how disturbed this guy is, in more ways than one, I a little concerned. Others had this problem?
Message: Posted by: HerbLarry (Feb 24, 2010 09:43AM)
Personal protection is always a good idea.
Message: Posted by: Fábio DeRose (Feb 24, 2010 09:48AM)
[quote]
On 2010-02-24 10:40, derrick wrote:
One of the parents pulled me aside to let me know there was a mad and intimidating looking man/father (bald, tattoos, lots of ink)
[/quote]

Yes, that for sure makes him a serial killer.
Message: Posted by: Christopher Lyle (Feb 24, 2010 10:43AM)
Derrick,

Could it be possible that this guy showing up at Best Buy was an amazing coincidence? I'm just asking? Do you know for a fact that he did follow you there or perhaps he just happened to end up in the same place you were, saw you were there too and was still miffed. Obviously, I have no idea, I'm just trying to play out another scenario...

Personal Protection is a must I feel. I do not like guns or carry one at all. I hate them. But I do carry a blade on me. I use it in my show for a few differnt things it is a prop in my show, but if I need it, I've got it!

I have had an issue once or twice in my life where I felt threatened by someone at one of my gigs, but I was able to talk myself out if it using my sharp tongue and my oozing charm...lol!

Just one more reason I won't do balloons anymore...becuase there is always going to someone who won't get one and feels like they got left out in the cold when I stop the line.

Christopher
Message: Posted by: Servaas Koomen (Feb 24, 2010 10:54AM)
Ive accepted it as a general fact of life that I need protection, so for many years I'm training kung fu now.

for me its a race against the clock, to be the strongest on the moment I need to, so I can protect me and my family. the moment may never come, but I am more than ready.

lots of people with issues out there you see..
Message: Posted by: montymagi (Feb 24, 2010 11:33AM)
I am a federal officer in my day job so I always have a gun on me or in my car. There are bad people out there.
Message: Posted by: meyegr (Feb 24, 2010 12:02PM)
A fightihng technique or a knife is no match for a gun :)
Message: Posted by: Stanyon (Feb 24, 2010 01:13PM)
The real answer to the question.
Message: Posted by: Christopher Lyle (Feb 24, 2010 01:48PM)
Geeze Stanyon...who has something like that lying around their house! WOW! lol!
Message: Posted by: derrick (Feb 24, 2010 01:56PM)
This is a first for me in over 20 years of performing to be be threatened by a patron. Having a wife who is a detective, I do have a carry permit and usually (not always) have her old service pistol (40 mm Beretta) with me. It will now be with me all of the time. This kind of situation is really strange and extrememly disturbing. What worries me even more is that it could be more than one person who might make it their business.

D
Message: Posted by: derrick (Feb 24, 2010 01:57PM)
Oh, and Christopher - it was no mistake. Same isle and eye contact.
Message: Posted by: Christopher Lyle (Feb 24, 2010 02:14PM)
[quote]
On 2010-02-24 14:57, derrick wrote:
Oh, and Christopher - it was no mistake. Same isle and eye contact.
[/quote]

Wow! Creepy! Sorry that happened mate! This guy must have been HUGH if YOU felt intimidated. You ain't exactly what I'd call a "tiny" person if you know what I mean....

Once, I was performing in a night club out in Downtown Dallas and I had a female assistant on stage with me. She was into the routine and was pretty much game for anything so my jokes and comedy went south. Hey! It's like 1am in a Dallas Nightclub...right? WRONG!

Apparently, her emo boyfriend didn't like the inuendo or some of the touchy feely stuff that her and I had going on stage and he was waiting for me out in the parking lot after the show ready to make a man out of me.

I explained to him that what happened on stage was just in good fun and everyone (including his lady friend) was enjoying the show. He wasn't buyin' it. He wanted to knock me flat. I told him that Magicians are not known for their brute strength or fighting ability and that he could either hit me and then get arrested for assult or a better solution would be for me to go back in the bar with him and buy him a drink.

He agreed. We went inside, I bought him a drink, and hit the road! Disaster avoided!

The other instance happened so long ago, that I don't remember the specifics. What I do remember was some nut thought I was really magic and was becoming annoyed that I wouldn't explain to him how I was doing my stuff. He too waited out in the parking lot...but I think I told him to Pi$$ off and he bolted....

Not a very exciting ending to either story I know, but I'm glad they each ended the way they did!

Christopher
Message: Posted by: noble1 (Feb 24, 2010 03:35PM)
Is it really possible your life could be threatened for not making a balloon animal?
Message: Posted by: Scott F. Guinn (Feb 24, 2010 03:36PM)
Stuff happens. If you're in this game long enough, you're gonna run into somebody looking for a fight. You can be absolutely blameless and still have some nutjob want to take you out. It's happened to me a number of times in a number of situations. I had to take one guy down to the ground and hold him there for a few minutes once. Thankfully, he was quite inebriated--had he been sober and retained his normal reflexes, he likely would have knocked me cold, or worse. He was a rodeo bull rider and VERY strong.

I've told a story elsewhere about a gig I had in a redneck lounge where literally the biggest man I've ever seen in person threw (I mean literally THREW) a table (full-size 12 top) across the room and started coming at me. He was also fairly drunk, but still had his motor skills--and he was over 6'8" and well over 350 pounds, not much of it fat! The only thing that saved me was that the owner yelled out he'd already called the cops, and this guy was on parole--for assault!

Typically, I can get out of these situations by talking or sheer force of personality. However, keep in mind that I've done thousands of shows and this has happened to me less than a handful of times.

The scariest moment of my career? I had been asked to fill-in last minute for a traveling circus, whose magician had quit without notice. At the end of the week, they paid me -- in cash, in a clear plastic bag! I'd already loaded everything up, and was wearing shorts and a tank top, so nowhere to hide it. We were in a BAD part of town and I had to walk about a block to my rig. Let me tell you, carrying a clear plastic bag full of money at dusk in that area scared the living daylights out of me! But nobody approached me.
Message: Posted by: base851 (Feb 24, 2010 04:15PM)
One cautionary note as we discuss the pros & cons of carrying a weapon for protection purposes.

I live in probably the most gun-friendly state in the US, but even with a concealed/carry license you can get into biiiiigg trouble if you waltz into one of a number of places (e.g. bars, government buildings, etc. etc.) packing heat. Plus, a weapons violation on your record can put a damper on future employment possibilities.

I'm not saying don't protect yourself, just saying be very very observant of where you take your protection.
Message: Posted by: GlenD (Feb 24, 2010 05:15PM)
At the end of the week, they paid me -- in cash, in a clear plastic bag!

Now that's a change bag!!!
Message: Posted by: Daryl -the other brother (Feb 24, 2010 09:56PM)
[quote]
On 2010-02-24 14:56, derrick wrote:
I do have a carry permit and usually (not always) have her old service pistol (40 mm Beretta) with me. It will now be with me all of the time. [/quote]

How would packing a gun have helped the situation? I can't imagine it doing anything but making a bad situation worse.
Message: Posted by: Michael Baker (Feb 24, 2010 10:05PM)
Back to the reason the question of protection was asked...

Why not carry a bagful of pre-made balloons stashed away in a corner, so when you do hit that cut off point, if there are still kids in line, just grab the bag, tell them it's time for you to go, but they will still get a balloon. Open the bag and pull out each one with as much fanfare and comedic hoopla as you can generate. Get them laughing so they'll forget they didn't have a choice. Then scram. What will a few extra balloons cost you?
Message: Posted by: SteveB (Feb 25, 2010 12:27AM)
"Well officer, he wanted me to make his kid a balloon but I was off duty. He had a bunch of tats and looked scary so I shot him! What? you want me to lean against that wall with my hands above my head"

I would rather just make his kid a balloon. There is no way I would want to lose some teeth over another "poodle dog" balloon.

I like Michael's idea, not only do you avoid the drama but everyone is happy.
Message: Posted by: ERIC (Feb 25, 2010 01:58AM)
"I do have a carry permit and usually (not always) have her old service pistol (40 mm Beretta) with me."

I have heard of a 9mm or 10mm, even a 45 calbre, I've carried all three on the job, but a 40 mm shell would be 1&5/8 inches across. I don't believe anyone makes a handgun like that.
Message: Posted by: pepka (Feb 25, 2010 03:43AM)
I thought this was going to be about you meeting up with an attractive patron at your gig and not having you know, "PROTECTION." As a big bald guy with tattoos, I'm a bit taken back by the stereotype.
Message: Posted by: gaddy (Feb 25, 2010 03:47AM)
I don't feel safe unless my entire country is protected by intercontinental ballistic missiles, B1-B bombers and Ohio Class nuclear submarines. Needless to say, I usually feel pretty safe to whip out my sponge bunnies as I see fit, or not!

The crack-heads, gangbangers, monty gangs, gypsy fortune-tellers, pickpockets and con men who I work around ALL THE TIME as a street entertainer are all getting a right, good, chuckle at the moment, and are all asking where do you live...

BTW- are you actually saying that you sometimes carry a firearm to magic gigs and now always will?
Message: Posted by: slyhand (Feb 25, 2010 06:52AM)
People love me too much for me to feel threatened. Or maybe it's because I look scarier than they do.
Message: Posted by: jakeg (Feb 25, 2010 07:24AM)
There is a big difference between thinking that you might be threatened and actually being threatened.
Any performer that would carry a firearm to a kids show is scarier, and a lot sicker, than anyone who might threaten you. If you feel that you need protection, carry a baseball bat.
Message: Posted by: jolyonjenkins (Feb 25, 2010 07:41AM)
How many other Europeans are shaking their heads in silent wonder?
Message: Posted by: Bad to the Balloon (Feb 25, 2010 07:42AM)
Derrick,

I have been there too... People get a little crazy. You did the right thing on a lot of counts and the feeling you probably have is not so much for your safety and security but the ones around you. You also feel angry and have woulda coulda shoulda's running throught your head like re-runs of Roadhouse with Patrick Swazye.

Like I tell my children, stay in groups if you feel uncomfortable, have your cell phone handy, expect the unexpected. Like Monti I was a trained Security Police Officer in the Service, I can shoot just about anything handed to me and was part of the EST Team too. (SWAT for the people from the 70's)

Keep your head about you and this is a rare instance.

As for the "Just make one more crowd" If your doing the good stuff. It ain't about hammering out a weenie dog. If you are doing the good stuff that wouldn't have appeased the guy either. Unless....

As to finishing off a restaurant.... What I do if I need to leave and it is still busy? I will do a lightening round of wienie dogs as I explain to people that I am sorry and need to go but everyone will get something not the amazing things like you saw earlier but something.

People still get ****ed and kids don't listen but it is the best to do.

Watch your time and your timing. stay close to the door and get paid early.
Message: Posted by: jolyonjenkins (Feb 25, 2010 07:43AM)
How many other Europeans are shaking their heads in silent wonder?
Message: Posted by: Bad to the Balloon (Feb 25, 2010 07:46AM)
[quote]
On 2010-02-25 02:58, ERIC wrote:
"I do have a carry permit and usually (not always) have her old service pistol (40 mm Beretta) with me."

I have heard of a 9mm or 10mm, even a 45 calbre, I've carried all three on the job, but a 40 mm shell would be 1&5/8 inches across. I don't believe anyone makes a handgun like that.
[/quote]

Case solved:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=148085641
Message: Posted by: BenSimon (Feb 25, 2010 07:48AM)
*hesitatingly raises hand*

But after some people almost lnyching me for a handbag being stolen during my back room impromptu performance, I'm starting to think differently.
Message: Posted by: Skip Way (Feb 25, 2010 08:31AM)
I have to agree with Eric - we had grenade launchers with 40mm gas shells and rubber riot control balls; these shells were huge. Those Beretta clips in the auction had to be 40 calibre, not 40mm - huge difference but an easy mistake to make.

Still...pull out a 40mm handgun and you WILL get my attention right away! :)
What was that phrase? A silly millimeter longer...

In my younger days as a street performer (and off-duty cop), I carried a licensed 9mm in the small of my back, but I would never think of carrying a firearm into a contracted or private event.
Message: Posted by: derrick (Feb 25, 2010 09:06AM)
I should have written 40 caliber, my fault. They changed over from 9mm years ago. We didn't keep that one.

No, I will not carry anything of the sort into a gig, but yes I think I will have it in the car.

And as any performer knows, body language tells you more about a person's intentions than verbal communication. It doesn't take a person in your face saying he plans to kick your head in to know that's what he wants to do. When an obviously intimidating looking person follows you to another location (It could just as easily been to my home.) and lets you know it isn't just a coincidence he is there, then I think I have every right to be concerned about safety.

As far as making extra balloons, there is no amount of balloons to finish off the crowd. This is a very busy restaurant that seats over 400 and is packed until around 9 p.m. No matter how many balloons one makes before, there will never be enough, you simply have to cut off the line somewhere and stick to it. If you make one more, then you have made the decision to work for free until the place is closed because now you are in a situation of "well you made him/her one and they got here after the line was cut off.

On really busy nights I will usually just perform magic but some nights start slow and then a huge crowd hits and you are stuck in balloon mode. As many know, if you make one, get ready to do them the rest of the night.
Message: Posted by: montymagi (Feb 25, 2010 09:16AM)
I never carry when I am at a gig. My pistol will be in my car but not on me. Most other times I have it on me within the boundries of the law. Having a gun on you would not have helped this situation, however, if the situation became the worse case, you would be very happy to have a way to protect yourself.
Message: Posted by: Fábio DeRose (Feb 25, 2010 09:38AM)
Guns and Prejudice. Both termed as "protection" and both, IMO, epic fallacies.
Message: Posted by: Tim Dowd (Feb 25, 2010 09:45AM)
There are many views on this here is one I heard a long time ago "A recent FBI study showed that police officers who are killed in the line of duty rarely even fire a round at their assailant, and frequently the police officer's own firearm is taken from him/her and used against him/her. An FBI study of 51 incidents where 54 police officers were killed found that 85% did not fire their weapon while 20% were killed with their own gun" if the trained police are in danger from criminals just think how Joe Blow will fare. He who lives by the sword...

got the quote from here: http://homepage.usask.ca/~sta575/cdn-firearms/Snyder/right2carry.html
Message: Posted by: noble1 (Feb 25, 2010 11:03AM)
I misunderstood this thread. Do you carry protection to gigs? I thought you were talking about condoms.
Message: Posted by: Fábio DeRose (Feb 25, 2010 11:37AM)
That joke's been made.
Message: Posted by: LBP MAGIC (Feb 25, 2010 12:11PM)
[quote]
On 2010-02-25 10:45, Tim Dowd wrote:
There are many views on this here is one I heard a long time ago "A recent FBI study showed that police officers who are killed in the line of duty rarely even fire a round at their assailant, and frequently the police officer's own firearm is taken from him/her and used against him/her. An FBI study of 51 incidents where 54 police officers were killed found that 85% did not fire their weapon while 20% were killed with their own gun" if the trained police are in danger from criminals just think how Joe Blow will fare. He who lives by the sword...

got the quote from here: http://homepage.usask.ca/~sta575/cdn-firearms/Snyder/right2carry.html
[/quote]

Another interesting thing I once learned. A trained police officer when in the heat of the moment needs to pull a gun and fire will usually fire 2 shots into the ground before the gun is even aimed at the would be attacker. Why is this important? Well if a officer that has gone through that many years of training still has all those nerves how are you going to fair? Odds are you would be killed before you ever got the gun even aimed right. And that's shooting off a holster on the hip! If you carry it in the front of your pants or pack of your pants you are probably going to either shoot of your manhood or from the back possibly shoot rounds at people to the left or right of the situation. Taking a gun for magic seems laughable to me. You have a better chance of being killed at a school than pulling a bunny from your hat.
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Feb 25, 2010 01:59PM)
I still can't believe Pepka followed your into a store and glared at you.
He seemed nice enough when I met him in Vegas.
Message: Posted by: derrick (Feb 25, 2010 01:59PM)
[quote]
On 2010-02-25 13:11, LBP MAGIC wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-02-25 10:45, Tim Dowd wrote:
There are many views on this here is one I heard a long time ago "A recent FBI study showed that police officers who are killed in the line of duty rarely even fire a round at their assailant, and frequently the police officer's own firearm is taken from him/her and used against him/her. An FBI study of 51 incidents where 54 police officers were killed found that 85% did not fire their weapon while 20% were killed with their own gun" if the trained police are in danger from criminals just think how Joe Blow will fare. He who lives by the sword...

got the quote from here: http://homepage.usask.ca/~sta575/cdn-firearms/Snyder/right2carry.html
[/quote]

Another interesting thing I once learned. A trained police officer when in the heat of the moment needs to pull a gun and fire will usually fire 2 shots into the ground before the gun is even aimed at the would be attacker. Why is this important? Well if a officer that has gone through that many years of training still has all those nerves how are you going to fair? Odds are you would be killed before you ever got the gun even aimed right. And that's shooting off a holster on the hip! If you carry it in the front of your pants or pack of your pants you are probably going to either shoot of your manhood or from the back possibly shoot rounds at people to the left or right of the situation. Taking a gun for magic seems laughable to me. You have a better chance of being killed at a school than pulling a bunny from your hat.
[/quote]


The same report being quoted also says the following:

Permit holders need concern themselves with only one thing: protecting themselves from a sudden, violent assault that threatens life or grievous bodily injury. Rape, robbery, and attempted murder are not typically actions rife with ambiguity or subtlety, requiring special powers of observation, great book-learning, or a stint at the police academy to discern. When a man pulls a knife on a woman and says, "You're coming with me," her judgment that a crime is being committed is not likely to be in error.

Police, by contrast, do not carry arms solely for the purpose of defending themselves, but also for the purpose of enforcing the law. They deliberately inject themselves into potentially dangerous and violent situations, responding to calls for assistance, investigating crimes, intervening in domestic violence, and making arrests.
Message: Posted by: derrick (Feb 25, 2010 02:01PM)
Well shoot Pepka, why didn't you just say hello! Why you have to scare the h@ll out of me:)
Message: Posted by: derrick (Feb 25, 2010 02:09PM)
Not to change the subject, but Frank, I just got my new leather silver scepter cover and it is very nice. I'm guessing will last forever.
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Feb 25, 2010 02:11PM)
I heard a story from one of the other members here about an incident a few years ago.

Apparently he was doing a show when a group of [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardian_Angels]Guardian Angels[/url] showed up at the back of the room. He was about to do an encore (and pass the hat) when the Angels came up on stage and began an impromptu martial arts demonstration. You can imagine how livid he was at losing his opportunity to collect his hard-earned because of these show-offs.

He packed up his kit and was readying to leave when the leader of the Angels approached him. Apparently there was another group who had shown up in the back of the room as well: a biker gang. The Angels had overheard one of the bikers say that after the show they'd mug the magician and steal the cash.

I'm sure I have one or two details a bit off, but that's the gist of the story: had he been allowed to pass the hat, it might have cost him his life.
Message: Posted by: Alan Munro (Feb 25, 2010 04:06PM)
There are reasons that I no longer make balloon animals. First of all, it reminds me of manual labor - totally joyless! Second, if you want adults angry at you, nothing makes them angrier than their kid not getting a balloon. I cut off a balloon line, at a mall, yet one of the parents refused to get out of line with her child. She was livid when I packed up and made quite a scene. I made the balloon animal, but I never made them again. I quit! I can't stay on schedule with all of those psychotic parents out there.

As for carrying a weapon, I won't carry them into certain facilities. However, I am prepared to defend myself. Even when a loaded gun was pointed at me, that person quickly found out that they made a big mistake, even though I had no gun.
Message: Posted by: MagicMan1957 (Feb 25, 2010 06:19PM)
I really think it was just a coincidence that the guy ended up at the Best Buy too.

On more then one occasion in my life I noticed someone at a store or market I was at and then soon after saw the same person in a totally different location I stopped at.

As crazy as some people can be I cannot believe the tattoo guy would follow you to another location to just give you a scary look.

Coincidence's do happen in life.

Once in Las Vegas I left my favorite sweater (a gift from my girlfriend at the time) somewhere during my evening out on the town. Four days later I got in a cab in Vegas. Soon the driver turns around and says, " Hey, I have your sweater " WHAT?

Now I,m thinking, there are Tens of THOUSANDS of tourists here in the busy season, Probably HUNDREDS of Taxi Drivers and this guy recognized me from days ago????

Funny thing is, he was gonna keep my sweater and had it at a Dry Cleaners! This is Vegas after all so this was a 24 hour Dry Cleaners so we pulled up to the Drive-Though-Window at 2 AM and I got my cleaned sweater back!!

Strange things do happen. Oh and he got a nice tip too.
Message: Posted by: Sammy J. (Feb 25, 2010 07:14PM)
Color changing knife. Don't leave home without it!

Sammy
Message: Posted by: derrick (Feb 25, 2010 11:17PM)
This was not a coincidence that the guy ended up Best Buy. He made it clear that he was angry and there for a reason. Think what you want and I'll know what I know and when someone follows you home, I'm sure it will just be because they happen to live a few dozen miles or doors away from your place.

Maybe I'm a little over protective since I'm married to someone who investigates domestic violence, rape, and assault cases every day. She also teaches self defense classes on the weekend when I'm doing shows so I guess I'd rather be safe than sorry.
Message: Posted by: MagicbyCarlo (Feb 25, 2010 11:59PM)
Derrick,

many years ago I was a young Trooper, my girlfriend (now my wife) was taking a course at Northwestern University in Chicago. I decided to take the train out and visit. Since I was travelling by train across State lines to Chicago, I decided not to take my off-duty (a Sig P-230). While we were there and we were out walking we met 2 Chicago Cops on foot patrol. I explained my situation and asked what the law was regarding out of State officers carrying etc. I'll never forget what the officer said to me "Kid, if you and your girlfriend are walking along and a couple of skells decide to rob you and rape her, what good is your piece doing you back in New York?"
I took that to heart and always remember that advice. Look into a KelTec P-32 or P-3A. It's like my American Express, don't leave home without it.
Message: Posted by: patrick flanagan (Feb 26, 2010 09:56AM)
Apparently there are a lot of gun-toting magicians out there. That's gonna make me think twice about criticizing someone's double lift at the next convention I go to.
Message: Posted by: base851 (Feb 26, 2010 10:08AM)
[quote]
On 2010-02-26 10:56, patrick flanagan wrote:
Apparently there are a lot of gun-toting magicians out there. That's gonna make me think twice about criticizing someone's double lift at the next convention I go to.
[/quote]

If you do, make sure you get them SO upset that they're crying and their hands are shaking. It messes up their aim.

Footnote For The Grammatically Impaired: Note above the correct usages of "they're" and "their".
Message: Posted by: base851 (Feb 26, 2010 10:12AM)
[quote]
On 2010-02-26 00:59, MagicbyCarlo wrote:

Look into a KelTec P-32 or P-3A. It's like my American Express, don't leave home without it.
[/quote]

Thos things are so tiny you could palm them. Now THAT would be an interesting "street magic" production.
Message: Posted by: taoist (Feb 26, 2010 12:06PM)
I pack a scorpion by outlaw and sword of monte cristo.
Message: Posted by: patrick flanagan (Feb 26, 2010 12:07PM)
I, also, used "there" correctly. But, I used it twice in the same sentence, so I'm not sure if that is appropriate.
Message: Posted by: ERIC (Feb 26, 2010 09:06PM)
[quote]
On 2010-02-26 00:59, MagicbyCarlo wrote:
Derrick,

many years ago I was a young Trooper, my girlfriend (now my wife) was taking a course at Northwestern University in Chicago. I decided to take the train out and visit. Since I was travelling by train across State lines to Chicago, I decided not to take my off-duty (a Sig P-230). While we were there and we were out walking we met 2 Chicago Cops on foot patrol. I explained my situation and asked what the law was regarding out of State officers carrying etc. I'll never forget what the officer said to me "Kid, if you and your girlfriend are walking along and a couple of skells decide to rob you and rape her, what good is your piece doing you back in New York?"
I took that to heart and always remember that advice. Look into a KelTec P-32 or P-3A. It's like my American Express, don't leave home without it.
[/quote]

Something very much like this happened to me when I first got on the job back in the mid 70's.

I was all around Jersey that day and decided to head to Tannen's to pick up a few things. After I got off of the train, I stopped at the first precinct just like I was taught at the acadamy. I approached the desk Sergeant and ID'd myself and then took my 357 out to turn it in until I was to leave the city. He looked at me like I was nuts and told me to "Put that thing back on. Your not gonna walk around this city without protection." After that, I never worried about carrying in the city again.

We look out for our own.
Message: Posted by: Metatron (Feb 26, 2010 10:23PM)
The big burley bikers, The Tattooed Ruffians, The Bezerking Drunks, The Crack-Head Schizos, they don't scare me.

What scares me, is all those Gun Toting Paranoid Magician Freaks.

Now that's Scary!

:)
Message: Posted by: MagicbyCarlo (Feb 27, 2010 12:12AM)
[quote]
On 2010-02-26 11:08, base851 wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-02-26 10:56, patrick flanagan wrote:
Apparently there are a lot of gun-toting magicians out there. That's gonna make me think twice about criticizing someone's double lift at the next convention I go to.
[/quote]

If you do, make sure you get them SO upset that they're crying and their hands are shaking. It messes up their aim.

Footnote For The Grammatically Impaired: Note above the correct usages of "they're" and "their".
[/quote]
Unless you're trying to criticize my double lift while attempting to rob or assault me you have nothing to fear. As far as crying is concerned, I had my emotions (with the exception of hatred) removed. It keeps me from shaking when I have to shoot someone.

This topic is going off on a terrible tangent.
Message: Posted by: MagicbyCarlo (Feb 27, 2010 12:21AM)
[quote]
On 2010-02-26 23:23, Metatron wrote:
The big burley bikers, The Tattooed Ruffians, The Bezerking Drunks, The Crack-Head Schizos, they don't scare me.

What scares me, is all those Gun Toting Paranoid Magician Freaks.

Now that's Scary!

:)
[/quote]
The problem with that emotional view is that is doesn't consider the reality outside of the emotion. We "Gun Toting Paranoid Magic Freaks" can defend our lives, property and family, you can be a victim or if you're lucky dial 911 and hope someone gets there in time to save you. Which situation should really scare you? ;)
Message: Posted by: MagicbyCarlo (Feb 27, 2010 01:19AM)
[quote]
On 2010-02-25 10:45, Tim Dowd wrote:
...He who lives by the sword...
[/quote]
Doesn't look like an unarmed victim in a sword fight?

Lets keep it going!

He who lives by 1800 year old quotes...
Message: Posted by: base851 (Feb 27, 2010 01:36AM)
[quote]
On 2010-02-26 13:07, patrick flanagan wrote:
I, also, used "there" correctly. But, I used it twice in the same sentence, so I'm not sure if that is appropriate.
[/quote]

I wasn't criticizing your usage... my apologies if it came across that way. It was more in reference to the whole there/their/they're dichotomy that people seem to just catch-all with "there".

But back to guns. Thoughts on palming technique... I'm thinking a thumb clip is superior to a classic palm because of the quicker forefinger-to-trigger transfer.
Message: Posted by: Stanyon (Feb 27, 2010 08:10AM)
And then there/their/they're is...
Message: Posted by: Loual4 (Feb 27, 2010 08:36AM)
[quote]
On 2010-02-26 10:56, patrick flanagan wrote:
Apparently there are a lot of gun-toting magicians out there. That's gonna make me think twice about criticizing someone's double lift at the next convention I go to.
[/quote]

Never mind the criticism, just don't steal their act!

Louis Jutras
Message: Posted by: Tim Dowd (Feb 27, 2010 01:41PM)
[quote]
On 2010-02-27 02:19, MagicbyCarlo wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-02-25 10:45, Tim Dowd wrote:
...He who lives by the sword...
[/quote]
Doesn't look like an unarmed victim in a sword fight?

Lets keep it going!

He who lives by 1800 year old quotes...
[/quote]

Not living in the united states of america is what makes this discussion unbalanced. It sounds like you live in a country which isn't safe and you need protection at all times. I can imagine carrying a weapon in a war-torn country but never in peace time. I lived in the "murder capital of the world" from 1997 until 2001 - Richmond VA. Apparently the first few weeks of the year 1997 more people were killed per-capita than any other city in the world. In nearly 5 years I never had an issue or even felt threatened.

My example above was about how having a gun may escalate the situation and lead to tragedy. On the other hand I can see the argument that waving a gun around deters assailants, but then it must be visible, John Wayne style...

He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword is a quote from The Bible: Matthew 26:52 although I am not religious I think that they are valid metaphors in such a discussion.
Message: Posted by: gaddy (Feb 27, 2010 02:01PM)
Before this degenerates into a general "gun rights" or "the best type of ammunition" thread, I'd like to bring us back to the original point of the thread which ran along the lines of [i][b]bring in firearms to one's magic gigs "for protection"[/i][/b] -Which strikes me as one of the most absurd subjects I've ever encountered on the Magic Café.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Feb 27, 2010 07:29PM)
[quote]
On 2010-02-25 02:58, ERIC wrote:
"I do have a carry permit and usually (not always) have her old service pistol (40 mm Beretta) with me."

I have heard of a 9mm or 10mm, even a 45 calbre, I've carried all three on the job, but a 40 mm shell would be 1&5/8 inches across. I don't believe anyone makes a handgun like that.
[/quote]

Just read this post. I am sure he is referring to a 40 cal. Not a 40 mm as the 40 cal is actually smaller than the 45. We are talking metric and inches here.

However the 40 cal is a very potent round.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Feb 27, 2010 07:52PM)
[quote]
On 2010-02-27 14:41, Tim Dowd wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-02-27 02:19, MagicbyCarlo wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-02-25 10:45, Tim Dowd wrote:
...He who lives by the sword...
[/quote]
Doesn't look like an unarmed victim in a sword fight?

Lets keep it going!

He who lives by 1800 year old quotes...
[/quote]

Not living in the united states of america is what makes this discussion unbalanced. It sounds like you live in a country which isn't safe and you need protection at all times. I can imagine carrying a weapon in a war-torn country but never in peace time. I lived in the "murder capital of the world" from 1997 until 2001 - Richmond VA. Apparently the first few weeks of the year 1997 more people were killed per-capita than any other city in the world. In nearly 5 years I never had an issue or even felt threatened.

My example above was about how having a gun may escalate the situation and lead to tragedy. On the other hand I can see the argument that waving a gun around deters assailants, but then it must be visible, John Wayne style...

He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword is a quote from The Bible: Matthew 26:52 although I am not religious I think that they are valid metaphors in such a discussion.
[/quote]

Glad you survived your stay in the US.

Remember there is Richmond Va and there is Richmond Va. Just like living in NYC. I asume you were not living in a bad part of the city..however asssuming does make an a@@ out of ones self so perhaps you were in a bad part of that fine city.

Just to let you know waving a gun around is the worse thing you can do. You do not even present your gun unless you are going to use it. Just for your info there is a law in most juristions that some call "brandishing" which is showing off their firearm or waving as you say. Ususally punishable by a fine and losing your "right to carry permit" along with their guns. So your mention of John Wayne style is way off base.
Message: Posted by: ERIC (Feb 27, 2010 08:28PM)
AND just for all of those who don't realize, Most of those posting about carrying are or were law enforcement personnell. BIG DIFFERENCE. Here in the states, we are required to carry 24/7. If something goes down near us and we DO NOT act, WE CAN AND, if found out that we could have acted and didn't, ARE held lible.

Does this mean that I carry to children's parties? You'll never know unless you try to hurt someone near me. Do the kids ever see? NO! When they ask for a balloon gun, I show them my badge and say I never make guns. They never question.

If I was NOT law enforcement, I WOULD NEVER CARRY! Actually, now that I am retired, I rarely carry anymore even though I still can.
Message: Posted by: Michael Peterson (Feb 28, 2010 03:17AM)
WOW!
Law enforcement or not, I could not imagine brining a gun to a children's show(even if it was never seen).

If I hired a magician for my child's party & found out he brought a gun in my home while their to entertain children, I would be pretty ****ed off.

Not trying to start a fight here, I just disagree.


Mike
Message: Posted by: derrick (Feb 28, 2010 06:56AM)
I started this thread and I didn't say that I was taking a gun into children's shows. What kicked this off was an event (really a non event) that happened at a restaurant while table hopping last Tuesday. I've performed for 20 years without a serious incident. On this night, the angry father of a child, who didn't get a balloon, followed me to another location to either threaten or intimidate me and did a fine job of doing both. Yes I said I have a 40 mm when I intended to say 40 caliber Beretta. It is my wife's old service pistol, she is a local police detective. I didn't have a gun with me that night. I informed the security guard at the second location (Best Buy) of the situation and removed myself as quickly as possible. I do have a conceal and carry license and do, on occasion, bring a pistol with me. I also stated later in the thread, that I probably will have it with me from now on. It will stay in the car, as it always has, at children's shows. My original question was, does anyone else carry protection to their gigs (handgun, taser, pepper spray, a cane or staff they really don't need, etc)? I know there are some who hate or would never carry a gun. Do those folks have an alternative for self protection that doesn't involve calling 911 and waiting 20 - 30 minutes? Hope this helps get this back on track. Because of the emotional issues associated with carrying a firearm, a taser may be a good alternative.
Message: Posted by: MagicbyCarlo (Feb 28, 2010 07:35AM)
[quote]
On 2010-02-27 14:41, Tim Dowd wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-02-27 02:19, MagicbyCarlo wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-02-25 10:45, Tim Dowd wrote:
...He who lives by the sword...
[/quote]
Doesn't look like an unarmed victim in a sword fight?

Lets keep it going!

He who lives by 1800 year old quotes...
[/quote]

Not living in the united states of america is what makes this discussion unbalanced. It sounds like you live in a country which isn't safe and you need protection at all times. I can imagine carrying a weapon in a war-torn country but never in peace time. I lived in the "murder capital of the world" from 1997 until 2001 - Richmond VA. Apparently the first few weeks of the year 1997 more people were killed per-capita than any other city in the world. In nearly 5 years I never had an issue or even felt threatened.

My example above was about how having a gun may escalate the situation and lead to tragedy. On the other hand I can see the argument that waving a gun around deters assailants, but then it must be visible, John Wayne style...

He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword is a quote from The Bible: Matthew 26:52 although I am not religious I think that they are valid metaphors in such a discussion.
[/quote]
Tim, of course you're right. Guns are bad and religious metaphors are relevant.
And, yes, not living in the U.S.A. does effect the discussion. Here, it's a right granted by our Constitution and by that right our Government "shall not infringe". Regardless of the scare tactics, my carrying a gun does no harm to anyone other than someone threatening ME with with imminent harm. YOU can determine what's right for YOU.
I knew exactly where the quote came from as you should have guessed from my little suggested game.
The entire argument is specious and not subject to any one correct view. That is why my particular post was a personal experience and not a political statement backed up with pro-gun data. You choose to inject data from a gun control advocate to bolster your position (which I respect but disagree with). So why don't you respect my right to choose to carry and I'll respect your right to choose not to or live somewhere you are not allowed to carry, and we'll all get along just fine.
I WAS trying to keep things "light".
Message: Posted by: jazzy snazzy (Feb 28, 2010 10:02AM)
You are hired to perform, not manage traffic. Someone should be assigned to close the line at the proper time.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Feb 28, 2010 12:29PM)
[quote]
On 2010-02-28 11:02, jazzy snazzy wrote:
You are hired to perform, not manage traffic. Someone should be assigned to close the line at the proper time.
[/quote]



WHAT??????
Message: Posted by: tabman (Feb 28, 2010 01:02PM)
With so many packing heat these days I don't go out in public much any more. I just don't want to get caught in the ineviable cross fire. My wife was on the 1984 Olympic Shooting Team and me her road coach for that year and we are quite versed in firearms and what they can do. The professionals in law enforcement don't even get it right all the time. Who can you trust?? Best to keep a friend or two close.

What's next?? Metal detectors in resaurants?? homes??? Just give everybody a pistol and a clip of ammo and give it six months to see how it shakes out? When we were on the road one of us always carried when it was paynight and went in twos when it was coming in cash. Too many people who will try to take it from you. I learned this from Willie's bro in law, Shotgun Jack, who always accompained the bag man and carried a sawed off double barrell under his duster.

This thread is pretty nuts and is starting to worry me.
Message: Posted by: Tim Dowd (Feb 28, 2010 01:03PM)
Carlo, sorry I forgot to read your signature "...all round fun guy" me to. No hard feelings?

Tabman Yeehaa! you got it...
Message: Posted by: Stanyon (Feb 28, 2010 05:13PM)
My personal favorite...
Message: Posted by: ziggystarsane (Mar 1, 2010 12:28AM)
OMG... What is this....... http://www.usagunclub.com

I have to say - as I work in Australia the only think I really have to worry about are the "Killer Koala Bears" who occasionally roam the streets at night in rather cute looking gangs.

I honestly think if I hand to carry a hand gun whilst working one of the following would probably happen...

A. I would accidently shoot myself whilst placing a palmed card in my inside jacket pocket

B. I would accidently shoot a spectator whilst placing a palmed card in my inside jacket pocket

C. I would purposely shoot myself due to a bad nights performance

D. I would purposely shoot a spectator because his heckling made me have a bad nights performance

Or E. And I feel this would be the most likely...I would quite Magic and join a monastery....
Message: Posted by: Michael Peterson (Mar 1, 2010 02:07AM)
[quote]
On 2010-03-01 01:28, ziggystarsane wrote:
OMG... What is this....... http://www.usagunclub.com

I have to say - as I work in Australia the only think I really have to worry about are the "Killer Koala Bears" who occasionally roam the streets at night in rather cute looking gangs.

I honestly think if I hand to carry a hand gun whilst working one of the following would probably happen...

A. I would accidently shoot myself whilst placing a palmed card in my inside jacket pocket

B. I would accidently shoot a spectator whilst placing a palmed card in my inside jacket pocket

C. I would purposely shoot myself due to a bad nights performance

D. I would purposely shoot a spectator because his heckling made me have a bad nights performance

Or E. And I feel this would be the most likely...I would quite Magic and join a monastery....
[/quote]


C is the reason I would not carry a gun to a gig :)


Mike
Message: Posted by: MagicbyCarlo (Mar 1, 2010 08:17AM)
[quote]
On 2010-02-28 07:56, derrick wrote:
Because of the emotional issues associated with carrying a firearm, a taser may be a good alternative.
[/quote]
See Derrick, you actually touched on the REAL problem with this issue. For some IT IS emotional.

The problem with viewing a topic emotionally is that you fail to see the reality that exists outside of the emotion.

I don't carry (concealed) because I have some wild eyed desire to get into a Hollywood action movie shootout as some imply by using terms like "gun nuts" or referring to imminent public "shoot outs" and "crossfires". I carry as an armed citizen because I know the person with the best chance of saving me or someone with me from a violent crime IS me. As a retired police officer I recognize that the police are fine for the clean-up, but how often are they right there in a situation like the one you faced?
Carrying a handgun doesn't embolden me to act aggressively as is suggested so often by those who are carry adverse. To the contrary, as a responsible owner and carrier of firearms, I realize that if I can avoid or neutralize a situation without force, THAT is the preferred course of action. Deadly force is only a last resort and ultimately must be justified in its use. In your particular case the situation probably would have resolved the same result regardless of whether you were armed or not. When faced with danger you can retreat from, it is best if possible to do so safely, avoid and or retreat. HOWEVER, if I cannot, I'm proficient, mentally and technically prepared. I don't just carry a weapon arbitrarily, I train regularly with it and always remain alert and conscious of my surroundings and situation; and conscientious of my duty to act and behave in safe and responsible manner. I also respect that those who have an emotional aversion to the carry of firearms SHOULD stay away from them.

[quote]
On 2010-02-25 08:41, rjenkins wrote
How many other Europeans are shaking their heads in silent wonder?
[/quote]
I'm not sure how relevant or informed your comment is. Seeing that you are from the U.K. which despite having draconian gun ownership laws (guess they learned from America that having armed citizens can loosen a government's power over it's people) has one of the highest violent crime rates IN THE WORLD (Higher they we violent, gun toting "Yanks"). I wonder why the prohibition on firearms hasn't kept THAT in check?

[quote]
On 2010-02-28 14:03, Tim Dowd wrote
Carlo, sorry I forgot to read your signature "...all round fun guy" me to. No hard feelings?

Tabman Yeehaa! you got it...
[/quote]
Tim, absolutely none! Civil discussion and even disagreement can be a productive exercise and occasionally I will even change my opinion. My opinion remains steadfast in this case though ;)

As an aside:
Derrick didn't ask for a political debate, he originally asked if anyone carried protection because of a situation he faced, and because some of us said we do, it generated an emotional opinion debate on the efficacy of arming one's self with a handgun. It's funny if you look at the issue, you never see those who do carry criticize those who don't carry, instead it's ALWAYS the other way around. Just an observation. Take care of YOUR house your way, I'll take care of mine MY way.
Message: Posted by: patrick flanagan (Mar 1, 2010 11:05AM)
[/quote] It's funny if you look at the issue, you never see those who do carry criticize those who don't carry, instead it's ALWAYS the other way around. Just an observation. [/quote]

Personally, I don't carry. I don't even own a gun; however, I've been considering getting one. I don't really care if someone carries or not. I just thought this statement was, well, rather obvious.
Of course, those that DON'T carry criticize those that DO. Those that DON'T carry are worried about being shot by those that DO (intentional or not). Those that DO carry have nothing to criticize. Why would those that carry worry? Might those that DO carry fear that a non-carrier might panic, mis-read a situation, and strike out by....kicking them in the shin?
If I DID own a gun and DID carry, I wouldn't be concerned about the non-carriers. I'd be concerned about the other ones that DO carry.
patrick
Message: Posted by: patrick flanagan (Mar 1, 2010 11:06AM)
Good grief...i still can't figure out how to put someone's quote in here in a nice, neat manner. ugh
Message: Posted by: base851 (Mar 1, 2010 11:25AM)
Patrick,

You were close. You just need to omit the '/' from the opening quote tag and keep it on the last one.

[quote]blah blah flame flame blah blah[/quote]

(Bonus points for knowing how I managed to get the correctly formatted tags to show rather than act like tags) ;-)
Message: Posted by: Skip Way (Mar 1, 2010 11:26AM)
[quote]
On 2010-03-01 12:06, patrick flanagan wrote:
Good grief...i still can't figure out how to put someone's quote in here in a nice, neat manner. ugh
[/quote]

You had it almost right, Patrick. Just take the "/" out of that first quote bracket. The "/" denotes "end of command" as in "end of quote." So, start with Bracket-Quote-Bracket and end with Bracket-/-Quote-Bracket. Make sense?

Ah! Base beat me to it. Bonus points, Base-Man! :)
Message: Posted by: TKD27 (Mar 1, 2010 11:29AM)
[quote]
On 2010-03-01 12:06, patrick flanagan wrote:
Good grief...i still can't figure out how to put someone's quote in here in a nice, neat manner. ugh
[/quote]

Well said on the first point. On quoting, though, you just need to take out the " / " in the first bracket. It's just the word in the bracket to tag the quote, then the the word with a slash in front of it, in a bracket, to end the quote.
Message: Posted by: patrick flanagan (Mar 1, 2010 12:09PM)
[quote]

Well said on the first point. On quoting, though, you just need to take out the " / " in the first bracket. It's just the word in the bracket to tag the quote, then the the word with a slash in front of it, in a bracket, to end the quote.
[/quote]

Woot!!! I did it. If my arms were longer, I'd pat myself on the back!!
thanks for the help, guys!!!
Message: Posted by: Stanyon (Mar 1, 2010 04:04PM)
But if course it's always nice to leave in the info as to who you are quoting.

FWIW
Message: Posted by: MagicbyCarlo (Mar 1, 2010 04:19PM)
[quote]
On 2010-03-01 12:05, patrick flanagan wrote:
[quote] It's funny if you look at the issue, you never see those who do carry criticize those who don't carry, instead it's ALWAYS the other way around. Just an observation. [/quote]

Personally, I don't carry. I don't even own a gun; however, I've been considering getting one. I don't really care if someone carries or not. I just thought this statement was, well, rather obvious.
Of course, those that DON'T carry criticize those that DO. Those that DON'T carry are worried about being shot by those that DO (intentional or not). Those that DO carry have nothing to criticize. Why would those that carry worry? Might those that DO carry fear that a non-carrier might panic, mis-read a situation, and strike out by....kicking them in the shin?
If I DID own a gun and DID carry, I wouldn't be concerned about the non-carriers. I'd be concerned about the other ones that DO carry.
patrick
[/quote]
Patrick consider this: How many legally armed citizens attack unarmed citizens with handguns in your area? This is what I mean about not recognizing the reality that exists outside of the emotion. This is another specious argument attempting to rationalize an irrational position. Legal gun owners who carry are generally NOT who you need to worry about. If you're getting a gun with the idea that you need it to protect yourself from legal other gun owners, you are missing the point.
Additionally, the idea of accidental shootings are so prolific is ridiculous. Significantly more cops and civilians are killed annually in auto accidents and I don't see anyone calling for banning automobiles, significant reductions in speed limits, governors on auto engines, more police writing traffic tickets to more strictly enforce traffic laws. But guns are the "Boogeyman"; it's nonsense.

On an unrelated note: Congrats on getting the quotes figured out! :dancing:
Message: Posted by: Hare (Mar 1, 2010 04:28PM)
Goodness. When I saw the title of this thread, I thought, "Gee, these magicians are a LOT more popular than me. They must have one helluva an act!"
Message: Posted by: MagicbyCarlo (Mar 1, 2010 08:10PM)
[quote]
On 2010-03-01 17:28, Hare wrote:
Goodness. When I saw the title of this thread, I thought, "Gee, these magicians are a LOT more popular than me. They must have one helluva an act!"
[/quote]
That too! It never hurts to be prepared :wow:
Message: Posted by: Metatron (Mar 2, 2010 10:23AM)
MagicbyCarlo,

To me it looks like you're the most EMOTIONAL person posting about this subject.

---

"It's funny if you look at the issue, you never see those who do carry criticize those who don't carry, instead it's ALWAYS the other way around. Just an observation."

that's like saying, you never see cigarette smokers complaining about people that don't smoke. It's always the non-smokers complaining about the smokers.

---


" How many legally armed citizens attack unarmed citizens with handguns in your area? This is what I mean about not recognizing the reality that exists outside of the emotion. "

The fact is most accidental gun deaths do involve a registered weapon. Criminals shooting guns are not considered accidents.

---

"Significantly more cops and civilians are killed annually in auto accidents and I don't see anyone calling for banning automobiles"

If this is true why are you so worried that you have to pack a gun.

---

Here is a REALITY check: So far, has your packing a concealed weapon saved you from anything at all? If not, then my MAGIC UNDERWEAR has been just as effective! :)

Lighten up! I know your the emotional one, it was obvious when you quoted my JOKE and went into a tirade!

You are so emotional that you will probably respond to this too!

Metatron
Message: Posted by: patrick flanagan (Mar 2, 2010 10:25AM)
Carlo,
I completely understand your points. I live in the Chicago area...born and raised in Chicago proper. Of course, I would certainly be more concerned about illegal gun owners/carriers than I would legal gun owners/carriers. To take that logic one step further, I would certainly be more concerned about a legal gun owner/carrier than I would be someone who does not own or carry a gun.
Throw alcohol or drugs into the equation and you can take all the training, rational thinking, instincts, and awareness and throw them in the trash along with yesterday's newspaper (which probably has more than a few stories of someone getting shot by a legal or illegal gun owner).
Last year or maybe the year before, in Chicago, we had a story about an active police officer, upset over being cut off, beat the s*** out of a 125 pound woman bartender. Judging from the video and pictures, this guy tipped the scales at about 250. His training, etc. were trumped by anger and inebriation. Since he was an active police officer, I'm sure he was carrying. I wonder what the outcome may have been if the bartender was a 200+ pound male...or if some of the other patrons there had jumped in to help this woman (sadly they didn't).
Yeah I know this is one isolated incident, but try that rational arguement on the poor woman that got her *ss beat.

I take back the back pat until I put the name of the quoter in correctly...lol
patrick
Message: Posted by: MagicbyCarlo (Mar 2, 2010 12:36PM)
[quote]
On 2010-03-02 11:25, patrick flanagan wrote:
Carlo,
I completely understand your points. I live in the Chicago area...born and raised in Chicago proper. Of course, I would certainly be more concerned about illegal gun owners/carriers than I would legal gun owners/carriers. To take that logic one step further, I would certainly be more concerned about a legal gun owner/carrier than I would be someone who does not own or carry a gun.
Throw alcohol or drugs into the equation and you can take all the training, rational thinking, instincts, and awareness and throw them in the trash along with yesterday's newspaper (which probably has more than a few stories of someone getting shot by a legal or illegal gun owner).
Last year or maybe the year before, in Chicago, we had a story about an active police officer, upset over being cut off, beat the s*** out of a 125 pound woman bartender. Judging from the video and pictures, this guy tipped the scales at about 250. His training, etc. were trumped by anger and inebriation. Since he was an active police officer, I'm sure he was carrying. I wonder what the outcome may have been if the bartender was a 200+ pound male...or if some of the other patrons there had jumped in to help this woman (sadly they didn't).
Yeah I know this is one isolated incident, but try that rational arguement on the poor woman that got her *ss beat.

I take back the back pat until I put the name of the quoter in correctly...lol
patrick
[/quote]
Patrick,

I see your perspective on this but what you describe is an aberration, an isolated incident, and is also is not relevant to the discussion. To paint the issue with the emotion generated by that one incident is fallacious. The police officer did not shoot the bartender, he used his hands and fists, he drank to excess and apparently had rage issues. The "what if the bartender was a 200lb guy" question is also a moot issue. Suppose an armed citizen had terminated the attack? Would you be singing the praises of the armed citizen who shot a drunk violent and dangerous person who had been beating a woman half his size?
As a result of this horrible event should we cut off everyone's arms and legs, prohibit alcohol, and lobotomize all citizens to prevent anything like this from ever happening again? Should all police officers be prohibited from drinking alcohol while off duty? Should we now disarm all cops? If someone is stabbed, do we seek to ban knives or stop people from owning them? If someone is bludgeoned with a hammer, do we ban hammers?
This incident illustrates one fact, this one individual, who happened to be a cop, was a bad guy and did a horrible thing. That's it.
Again, the crux of the issue is with behavior.
In my current State, North Carolina, there are restrictions to behavior while armed. One of those (go figure) is you are prohibited from drinking alcoholic beverages while armed.
Again, I refer you back to the automobile analogy (since automobiles are responsible for exponentially more U.S. deaths and injuries annually than firearms). At the moment, responsible and trained armed U.S. citizens pose less of a threat than a responsible Toyota driver.
People bring up statistics and incidents to bolster their fear based aversion to guns so that they don't have to be afraid. Is the fear rational or founded? I don't know. Is a fear of airplanes flying over your house, kitchen knives, cars, baseball bats, lawnmowers, chainsaws or the plethora of other things that accidentally or if misused, or used by crazed angry people will kill or injure people, rational?
This is my final post on this subject as I don't believe this discussion has any further productive value. ;)

With regard to quotes (perhaps the most important thing to come out of this discussion): at the top of a post there is a "quote" button, that will automatically put in the date time and who made the post along with the text of the post. If you want to manually add the information (if you are quoting multiple posts) then you can just look at the header of the post and manually put the info in using "quote" and "/quote" in brackets.

Carlo
Message: Posted by: dmueller (Mar 2, 2010 01:01PM)
I lived in Indiana for 8 years, not far from Gary. While I lived there I had a concealed carry permit, and I carried lawfully. By law I could not take my weapon into any establishment that served alcohol, or any government building (city state or federal) etc. And I obeyed those laws. At one point I hit upon some hard times and the only work I could find was as basically a door to door salesman. I carried products in a duffel bag and by the end of the day I had a good chunk of cash in my pocket to take back to the office.

One day on my rounds through Gary, I was approached by several young men. Having a pretty good deal of street smarts, I knew something was amiss. One of the young men produced a rather sizable knife and said "First we are going to harm you and then we are going to take your stuff and money" (not his exact words.heavily edited for content, I am sure you get the picture.) This was said at a distance of about 5 feet. Under the guise of reaching for my wallet I retrieved my concealed pistol, and as we magicians say, engaged in audience management. I held my would be assailants at gun point until the police arrived( I had an onlooker call them). When the police arrived they verified that I was properly credentialed to carry and then took my statement and made the appropriate arrests. Upon being searched one of the other young men was found to have an unlawful firearm. If I had not been armed, that day would have been very different. Since that time, I have carried ,when legal, at all times.

Of course there are those that think I should have done any number of things to avoid the situation.

If I were in the original posters shoes, yes I would carry protection where feasible. If worn properly, nobody is ever the wiser. For every day I carried that uncomfortable hunk of steel under my shoulder like a lead weight, they were all paid for the day that hunk of steel saved my life.

In regards to the gun control debate that was unintentionally spawned in this thread, I will just leave this here:

Anti Carry laws are society's way of saying a beaten and raped woman is morally superior to a would be assailant with a hole in his chest.
Message: Posted by: MagicbyCarlo (Mar 2, 2010 01:59PM)
[quote]
On 2010-03-02 11:23, Metatron wrote:
MagicbyCarlo,

To me it looks like you're the most EMOTIONAL person posting about this subject.
[/quote]
If [b]YOU[/b] say so.

[quote]
---

"It's funny if you look at the issue, you never see those who do carry criticize those who don't carry, instead it's ALWAYS the other way around. Just an observation."

that's like saying, you never see cigarette smokers complaining about people that don't smoke. It's always the non-smokers complaining about the smokers.

---
[/quote]
A specious correlation. The presence of an armed person does not create a health risk comparible to your analogy.

[quote]
" How many legally armed citizens attack unarmed citizens with handguns in your area? This is what I mean about not recognizing the reality that exists outside of the emotion. "

The fact is most accidental gun deaths do involve a registered weapon. Criminals shooting guns are not considered accidents.
[/quote]
What is your point? Your response doesn't even make sense. My question was about legal gun owners "attacking" unarmed citizens and the number of such attacks. Your response is sophomoric and off point.

[quote]
"Significantly more cops and civilians are killed annually in auto accidents and I don't see anyone calling for banning automobiles"

If this is true why are you so worried that you have to pack a gun.
[/quote]
Again, completely off point. Let me slow it down for you. That is what grown ups call an analogy. Check the statistics yourself. And I'm not "worried". I carry a gun for the same reason I wear a seat belt: To protect myself.

[quote]
Here is a REALITY check: So far, has your packing a concealed weapon saved you from anything at all? If not, then my MAGIC UNDERWEAR has been just as effective! :)
[/quote]
Thanks for that reality check! Yes it has, on two occasions. Additionally me and my gun also saved the life of a woman who was being attacked by knife wielding attacker.

[quote]
Lighten up! I know your the emotional one, it was obvious when you quoted my JOKE and went into a tirade!
[/quote]
Really? You mean my three sentence emotional tirade with the ;) on the end? That tirade? Sounds as if my response to your "joke" bothered [b]you[/b] doesn't it? What, there was no conviction, personal opinion or bias behind your "joke"? If not, then you were just blathering for sake of being seen as witty. I didn't miss the attempt, but humor is often a vehicle for viewpoint or opinion; is it not?

[quote]
You are so emotional that you will probably respond to this too!

Metatron
[/quote]
Wasn't THAT puerile?
I hope that you found the response emotional enough and that I didn't disappoint you. Now don't you have homework to do?

Carlo (not some anonymous tag)
Message: Posted by: Metatron (Mar 2, 2010 02:50PM)
"The problem with that emotional view is that is doesn't consider the reality outside of the emotion." - MAGICBYCARLO <--- This looks like tag to me!

:)
Message: Posted by: patrick flanagan (Mar 2, 2010 03:26PM)
Carlo,
I'm not necessarily in disagreement of the side of the fence you are on. I just find some of your arguements to be a bit much. Hammers, knives, and automobiles satisfy numerous needs of which killing people falls close to the bottom of the list for each of them. So to ban them because they were used in a crime is apples and oranges. I'd rather face someone trying to rob me using these items as weapons than a gun. Guns, registered or not, were manufactured for one reason....to destroy things (people, animals, targets, etc.). I suppose you could use the butt of a gun to hammer a nail or to hold a door open. But, listing the attributes of a gun, those things would fall way to the bottom of the list.
I'm not against gun control unless we could get rid of ALL of the guns. We can't. I often wonder if there would be less crime if EVERYONE was allowed to carry a gun. Then the gangbangers, criminals, and other swine of society would be on equal ground with the regular upstanding citizens.
If it seems I'm waffling on my stance, I'm really not. I believe my initial statement was that I worry more about an illegal carrier than a legal one...and that I worry more about a legal carrier than a non-carrier.
As I've said, I've considered, and still do, purchasing a gun. I feel this country is headed towards a crisis (social unrest, revolution) in the not too distant future. But that's a whole different topic....lol
patrick
Message: Posted by: Metatron (Mar 2, 2010 03:44PM)
Derrick,

Sorry for hijacking your thread. As you can see some people get emotionally charged, for or against the issue.

About carrying protection, if it makes you feel safer than go ahead. You are obviously responsible enough since you have a carry permit.

You are legally allowed to, your responsible enough, it makes you feel safer, so why not.

Carlos, I was just pushing your buttons. Don't shoot me. :)

Metatron
Message: Posted by: MagicbyCarlo (Mar 2, 2010 06:38PM)
[quote]
On 2010-03-02 16:26, patrick flanagan wrote:
Carlo,
I'm not necessarily in disagreement of the side of the fence you are on. I just find some of your arguements to be a bit much. Hammers, knives, and automobiles satisfy numerous needs of which killing people falls close to the bottom of the list for each of them. So to ban them because they were used in a crime is apples and oranges. I'd rather face someone trying to rob me using these items as weapons than a gun. Guns, registered or not, were manufactured for one reason....to destroy things (people, animals, targets, etc.). I suppose you could use the butt of a gun to hammer a nail or to hold a door open. But, listing the attributes of a gun, those things would fall way to the bottom of the list.
I'm not against gun control unless we could get rid of ALL of the guns. We can't. I often wonder if there would be less crime if EVERYONE was allowed to carry a gun. Then the gangbangers, criminals, and other swine of society would be on equal ground with the regular upstanding citizens.
If it seems I'm waffling on my stance, I'm really not. I believe my initial statement was that I worry more about an illegal carrier than a legal one...and that I worry more about a legal carrier than a non-carrier.
As I've said, I've considered, and still do, purchasing a gun. I feel this country is headed towards a crisis (social unrest, revolution) in the not too distant future. But that's a whole different topic....lol
patrick
[/quote]
Patrick I was just pushing the envelope to illustrate how irrationally people think about guns to the point of phobia ;) However in 24 years I have investigated assaults and homicides with [b]ALL[/b] of those items, 22 fatal auto accidents, 214 personal injury auto accidents as well as a homicide with 2x4 and another with a golf club. In contrast only 2 firearms related homicides, 1 accidental shooting, one suicide and one police shooting.

If you want something for the purposes you speak of check out Bushmaster.
By the way I prefer Oranges.

[quote]
On 2010-03-02 16:44, Metatron wrote:
Carlos, I was just pushing your buttons. Don't shoot me. :)

Metatron
[/quote]
I don't know Metatron, you just called me "Carlos"!!!!
Buttons reset ;) It's all good. Peace.

How about we get back to those double lifts!

Carlo
Message: Posted by: Metatron (Mar 2, 2010 07:43PM)
No prob
Message: Posted by: Tim Dowd (Mar 3, 2010 08:58AM)
[quote]
On 2010-03-02 14:01, dmueller wrote:
...<snip>

If I were in the original posters shoes, yes I would carry protection where feasible. If worn properly, nobody is ever the wiser. For every day I carried that uncomfortable hunk of steel under my shoulder like a lead weight, they were all paid for the day that hunk of steel saved my life.

In regards to the gun control debate that was unintentionally spawned in this thread, I will just leave this here:

Anti Carry laws are society's way of saying a beaten and raped woman is morally superior to a would be assailant with a hole in his chest.
[/quote]

I am glad it worked out for you, I would also like to carry a gun in a dangerous area, sorry you couldn't avoid it.

...
I just wanted to say that the gun thing is secondary... carrying protection to gigs was the question based on the fact that the entertainer does something which a member of the audience doesn't like.

you can protect yourself by wearing a helmet, bullet proof vest, cricketers box, footballers shin-pads and sensible shoes. :) OR you could work longer and make sure no one is left behind OR get someone else to do "the dirty deed" ;)

the whole gun carrying as opposed to non-gun carrying is, as you all say, another point and is highly dependent on where you live in the world. I do though take umbrage at using the NON prefix. This assumes that what you are doing is correct and those that don't do it are somewhat inferior.

Non-Smoker for instance assumes smoking is normal and I just don't do it. I am also a non-murderer and a non-rapist.

upshot: if you live in Gaza, Mogadishu or Gary Indiana carry a gun.

please read this with tongue firmly pressed into cheek...
Message: Posted by: tabman (Mar 3, 2010 10:14AM)
When I was on the road with Elvis old backup singers, [i]Memphis[/i], one of the singers had a cool little black leather wallet with a built in 25 cal pistola with a trigger finger hole in it. He would carry his cash in his front pocket and the wallet-pistol in his back, you get the picture.

Our tour bus was like an armed camp but we werent overt about it, just Caréful. It was in the early 80s. Also, the high sheriff of Davidson Co TN (Nashville) Fate Saunders was in the habit of deputizing all the entertainers who did benefits for him and we all had deputy badges and ID too. Sheriff Fate later went to prison for corruption but he was always decent to the entertainment community.

Get a Derringer. ;)
Message: Posted by: patrick flanagan (Mar 3, 2010 10:43AM)
Now that I really think about it. I suppose I am armed when performing. I carry a 8" butterfly knife for Card Stab. It's on me when working and in my close-up case, which goes where I go, when not working. That still comes in second place against a gun..lol.
I've only had one instance where I felt moderately uncomfortable. I was working close up at a bar when, in the middle of a routine, some 25 yr old guy grabs my arm . He says, "Are you hitting on my girlfriend?". I moved in right up against him so he wouldn't be able to extend his arm for a punch and told him, "I'm short, older, overweight, and balding...and you're not. Do you really think your girlfriend would be interested?" I suppose a moment of clarity overcame him, because he thought for a second, laughed, apologized, and gave me a nice tip after the set.
Message: Posted by: ringmaster (Mar 3, 2010 11:57AM)
[quote]
On 2010-02-25 02:58, ERIC wrote:
"I do have a carry permit and usually (not always) have her old service pistol (40 mm Beretta) with me."

I have heard of a 9mm or 10mm, even a 45 calbre, I've carried all three on the job, but a 40 mm shell would be 1&5/8 inches across. I don't believe anyone makes a handgun like that.
[/quoteM406, 40mm High-explosive (HE) round

This round has an olive drab aluminum skirt with a steel projectile attached, gold markings, and a yellow ogive. It arms between 14 and 27 meters, and it produces a ground burst that causes casualties within a 5-meter radius
Message: Posted by: dmueller (Mar 3, 2010 12:27PM)
[quote]
On 2010-03-03 11:43, patrick flanagan wrote:
Now that I really think about it. I suppose I am armed when performing. I carry a 8" butterfly knife for Card Stab. It's on me when working and in my close-up case, which goes where I go, when not working. That still comes in second place against a gun..lol.

[/quote]

Make sure you keep that in your case and not your pocket when you aren't performing. I'm guessing that with an over all length of 8" it has an approximate blade length of 4 inches. Most of the places I have lived that is a full inch over legal carry limit for a knife blade..... rule of thumb is 3 inches in my experience. Of course that varies from state to state and city to city. Many states have a specific law pertaining to butterfly knives and switch blades as well. I know in Illinois (where I currently reside) it is legal for me to own one but not to carry it. I am sure if it is in your case as a prop you wouldn't have any problems but if it were in your back pocket on your way to or from a gig... that could cause issues
Message: Posted by: Metatron (Mar 3, 2010 12:28PM)
Ringmaster,

Sounds like it shoots mini grenades! :)
Message: Posted by: MagicbyCarlo (Mar 3, 2010 01:22PM)
[quote]
On 2010-03-03 12:57, ringmaster wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-02-25 02:58, ERIC wrote:
"I do have a carry permit and usually (not always) have her old service pistol (40 mm Beretta) with me."

I have heard of a 9mm or 10mm, even a 45 calbre, I've carried all three on the job, but a 40 mm shell would be 1&5/8 inches across. I don't believe anyone makes a handgun like that.
[/quoteM406, 40mm High-explosive (HE) round

This round has an olive drab aluminum skirt with a steel projectile attached, gold markings, and a yellow ogive. It arms between 14 and 27 meters, and it produces a ground burst that causes casualties within a 5-meter radius
[/quote]
LOL! He probably meant .40 cal, not "mm". HOLY COW! 40 mm, where can I get one?! I just got a visual of a hand cannon! I think the largest handgun made is the S&W .500 S&W Magnum. Big beast of a handgun.

Still no discussion on double lifts?
Message: Posted by: RobertlewisIR (Mar 3, 2010 01:37PM)
Personally, I'd like to carry one of these to my gigs: http://cache.gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2007/07/protect.jpeg

I'm pretty sure I couldn't fire it without taking my arm off, but who's gonna screw with me?
Message: Posted by: patrick flanagan (Mar 3, 2010 03:18PM)
Dmueller,
the blade is 8" long. apparently, in our state (Illinois), as you pointed out, it is legal to own the knife, but illegal to carry it.
I never carry it on my person unless I'm working. if not working, it is in my close-up case, which still might get me in trouble. if so, I'll post on here for bail money.
patrick
Message: Posted by: MagicbyCarlo (Mar 3, 2010 03:21PM)
[quote]
On 2010-03-03 14:37, RobertlewisIR wrote:
Personally, I'd like to carry one of these to my gigs: http://cache.gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2007/07/protect.jpeg

I'm pretty sure I couldn't fire it without taking my arm off, but who's gonna screw with me?
[/quote]
Imagine [b]THAT[/b] bullet catch!
Message: Posted by: dmueller (Mar 3, 2010 03:30PM)
8" blade on a butterfly knife.... WOW... that's something Mick Dundee would carry.
Message: Posted by: imDavidQ (Mar 3, 2010 06:27PM)
I would never carry a gun to a performance. Unless of course it was a kid's show. They can be a rough crowd! -Q.
Message: Posted by: derrick (Mar 3, 2010 07:17PM)
I stated much earlier that I should have written 40 caliber not 40 mm. Just an off the cuff post. I didn't qualify with this pistol, I just carry it now and then. Juesssssssus
Message: Posted by: Acecardician (Mar 3, 2010 07:23PM)
Back to the original post.
How about some helpful tips to try to not get in that situation?(I know we can't control the whims of irate people, but I found many of these things work to nip it in the bud:
To cut off a line, a clown friend of mine tells everyone he is on his way to Children's Hospital, that he has to go, he is late. Usually that shuts everyone up. I tried that line before and it worked.

Now when I book events to do balloons, I make sure I time it so that I finish when the event finishes and everyone has to leave. Or I find out how many kids and make sure they hire me for enough time so everyone gets a balloon. And I also have a "CLOSED" sign I made on my computer, I make several of them and tape one to the last persons back, and put one or two by me, and just point to the sign. I do this about 10 or 15 minutes before it was time to leave, so I can finish everyone in line. I've even bought rolls of tickets to give out. You need a ticket for a balloon.
I saw a face painter had a real cute rhyme on a laminated sheet they hung around the last persons neck. It was about being closed. It was so cute, you could not get mad at them.

Another idea is to tell them once you are finished any extra balloons are $5 each.
If they pay, then stay.

You can always leave if you say you have to go to the bathroom, that you are about to go on yourself.

I had another friend handle it in his contract. If he stayed over, each minute over the time was like $25 per minute. The person paying was sure to ALWAYS escort him out on time.

Once someone was waitng for my line to go down. It did not until I closed it. The agent for the event actually got at the end of the line to turn people away. When everyone was gone, I was packing up, and the person came up to me, thinking I had no one in line. Then I had to send them away. I went into the back to get paid. That person complained to the person in charge, so the agent paid me another $25 to go out and do that one balloon.

Coming up I am doing the Sheriff's Easter egg hunt. There will be thousands of kids. I did it 2 years ago. They had Sheriff deputies cut off my line. No one argued with them. When they re-booked me this year, I made sure to ask if they would be there to close off my line. She laughed and said yes!

Once in a public area, I had someone asking me how much money I made. My senses told me they might want to rob me. I made sure they knew I got paid by check or Visa Card ahead of time. Then I started making a lot of noise and attracted everyone and did a trick, and even a security guard came over to see what was going on. Then I got out of there.

I now work too many schools to carry. They are just not allowed, even with a permit. I think it is like 50-100 yards from the school. You get caught, you go to jail, and then you can never carry legally. Same thing with places that serve alcohol, which would be most of my adult shows.

I am a juggler, so I usually always have wooden bats and big heavy juggling blades with me that are visible.

(For the record, my training was as a Glockmeister.)

ACE
Message: Posted by: mkkprodigynet (Mar 3, 2010 07:35PM)
[quote]
On 2010-02-24 10:43, HerbLarry wrote:
Personal protection is always a good idea.
[/quote]
Message: Posted by: epoptika (Mar 3, 2010 07:56PM)
And all this time I thought you were talking about prophylactics!
Message: Posted by: Alexander Wells (Mar 4, 2010 07:21AM)
...I'm scared!

I'm also very glad I live in England. I'll be sure to bring my army of invisible flying monkeys for protection if I ever go to the U.S.
In Europe we only tend to arm ourselves for the odd civil war.

In Manchester we have the right to share barms. You'll have to pry the half an egg butty from my cold dead hands...
Message: Posted by: MickeyPainless (Mar 4, 2010 07:55AM)
[quote]
On 2010-03-03 20:56, epoptika wrote:
And all this time I thought you were talking about prophylactics!
[/quote]

I always carry protection but abstinence is still the only sure guarantee! ;)

MMc
Message: Posted by: Alan Munro (Mar 4, 2010 08:10AM)
[quote]
On 2010-03-03 14:22, MagicbyCarlo wrote:
I think the largest handgun made is the S&W .500 S&W Magnum. Big beast of a handgun.

[/quote]
That's what I heard. I still remember slow-motion footage of R. Lee Ermy shooting one of those on "Lock And Load". It flexed the bones in his forearm when he fired it! That's too much knock-down power.
Message: Posted by: imDavidQ (Mar 4, 2010 09:17AM)
Try Ricky Jay's 'Cards As Weapons'.
Message: Posted by: daviaac (Mar 4, 2010 09:37AM)
[quote]
On 2010-03-04 08:21, Neal Alexander wrote:
...I'm scared!

I'm also very glad I live in England. I'll be sure to bring my army of invisible flying monkeys for protection if I ever go to the U.S.
In Europe we only tend to arm ourselves for the odd civil war.

In Manchester we have the right to share barms. You'll have to pry the half an egg butty from my cold dead hands...
[/quote]

I was going to say the same thing all we have to worry about is dodgy ASBO knife wielding thugs, not to mention myleene klass.

I would like to chime in here and give a few thoughts about 'the right to bear arms' from a British point of view. The law itself was adopted by Americans from the British which we chose to discard once the slightly barbaric police force was established. With this in mind the stereotypical view that Britain / Europe "wouldn't understand" isn't correct, the more important question should be why don't we have the law anymore???

1 - As mentioned previously here, form of government oppression! Probably not seeing as though we still have free will, the only thing we are being stopped from doing is killing/hurting/'defending ourselves' from, other people with weapons. By 'defending ourselves' I meant the pro-argument rather mine as a gun is the last thing I would use on someone in a fight.

2 - Is it because we are superior to our 'cross the water' neighbours....definitely not, we have our own problems i.e. knife crime/drugs just like any other country.

Personally I think it has something to do with the idea that with no guns/knives (we can't carry a blade longer that two inches (think that's right)) gun and knife crime will drop. Nice idea, hope it works out in the long run.

Anyway I don’t mean to offend but this topic certainly is a hot one and I’m sure that had a I grown up in a country whereby guns are legal my opinion would be changed. I would just like to add that I lived in Egypt for 5 years where it was quite normal to see at least 10 armed guards using guns in a variety of unsettling ways. Examples include, using gun to rest on/using gun to sleep on (both of which the dangerous bit pointing towards their head) shooting stray dogs and cats when nobody was looking and much much more.

Cheers
luke
Message: Posted by: tabman (Mar 4, 2010 09:46AM)
Welcome to the Magicians Knife and Gun Club!!! ;)
Message: Posted by: Alexander Wells (Mar 4, 2010 11:17AM)
I suspect that if carrying guns were legal in the U.K. we'd all be dead within a fortnight. Don't believe all that stuff you hear about us being civilised and well mannered, we're mostly drunken barbarians. ;)
Message: Posted by: INCREDIBL3HULK (Mar 4, 2010 11:35AM)
Im an ex-police officer, so I feel prepared for situations like this. Buy some guns and learn how to use them. Don't list your number in phone books or use a house line on buisness cards.
Message: Posted by: Acecardician (Mar 4, 2010 06:50PM)
[quote]
On 2010-03-04 12:35, INCREDIBL3HULK wrote:
Im an ex-police officer, so I feel prepared for situations like this. Buy some guns and learn how to use them. Don't list your number in phone books or use a house line on buisness cards.
[/quote]

While I don't "carry" away from the house, I'd like someone try to get me at my house. Come on over! :gunfighter:

I don't advertise my address, but some search engines still give my old address. I just let it be. Even so, it still is not hard to find where someone lives.

ACE
Message: Posted by: Metatron (Mar 4, 2010 07:59PM)
Ok, I'm thinking of developing a "Zip Wand" - 22 caliber to market to all magicians who don't want to pack an actual gun. Just pull back the white tip & BANG! Magic Appearing Bullet. Great for that Pesky Heckler or those that don't pay on time. Gives a new meaning to "Magician's Arsenal".

Now you too, can be just like "Dirty Harry" Houdini!

Make my day. :)

Metatron
Message: Posted by: derrick (Mar 4, 2010 08:29PM)
Frankly Metatron, you make a magic wand that looks exactly like a magic wand and will shoot a probe a few dozen feet and will deliver the same 50,000 volts as a police taser. I'll be the first in line.
Message: Posted by: TKD27 (Mar 4, 2010 08:58PM)
[quote]
On 2010-03-04 12:35, INCREDIBL3HULK wrote:
Im an ex-police officer, so I feel prepared for situations like this. Buy some guns and learn how to use them. Don't list your number in phone books or use a house line on buisness cards.
[/quote]

Phone book? Is that the strange piece of litter that showed up on my lawn last week? Why would someone try to put Google in a book? That's just a silly waste of money... :-P
Message: Posted by: tabman (Mar 4, 2010 09:07PM)
[quote]
On 2010-03-04 20:59, Metatron wrote:... Ok, I'm thinking of developing a "Zip Wand" - 22 caliber to market to all magicians who don't want to pack an actual gun. ...[/quote]

that's a heck of an idea and I think you could get a .32 or a .38 in there. Go for it!!!
Message: Posted by: Metatron (Mar 4, 2010 09:43PM)
Ok so far we've got "ZIP Wand" aka: Magic Bullet Wand. The "ZAP Wand" aka: Electrifrying Magic Wand.

How about "The Wind Wand" poisonous blow dart wand, and "The Sizzler" flame throwing wand. Not to mention The Wand Dagger.

And that old stand-by The Metal Extend-able Baton Wand and last but not least the old Appearing Metal Cane in the Eye trick.

Come to think of it, I think Bill Bixby invented some of these for that old show "The Magician". :)
Message: Posted by: Acecardician (Mar 4, 2010 09:57PM)
I remember Bill Bixby got in a bar fight. He pulled an egg from behind someone's ear and smashed it in their face. Before they could react, he made a cane or a pool stick appear to knock them in the stomach. They fell over and he made his get away.

I have a very old brass wand that shoots 22 caliber blanks. The spring in it is from an actual 22.
I was wondering if a 22 short would work in it, but I don't want to blow off my hand. My future father in law is a gunsmith and said it might not work as no place for the gas to escape. Well, there are the bird shot 22's with practically no gunpowder. hmmm. I think they have a rig at the range with a string to pull to test such stuff. I might have to bring that to them. "Just for fun", of course!

ACE :cowboy:
Message: Posted by: Metatron (Mar 4, 2010 10:14PM)
Yeah, you better use a string, don't want the disappearing fingers trick. Remember there is probably no riffling in the tube so it won't go straight. Might just blow the barrel up! Better make it a really long string!
Message: Posted by: Acecardician (Mar 4, 2010 10:31PM)
Don't worry, I'm a SAFETY FIRST type of guy! And my hands are worth a lot. I don't even use power tools at my house. I will not do anything stupid. If I even do this, I will give it to some maniac to try. And get waaaaay back. The range is a very large outdoors area. Actually, I'll have professionals look at it. The blank bullet is right at the tip, and it is open, I've seen the fire come out. This is packed away, I will have to find it. I think it is an old Abbott's shooting blank wand. I actually used this in school assembly shows in the 80's, along with a blank 22 gun(pluged), to teach gun safety! And first I would use the "Bang gun": with the cloth "bang" silk. Wow, times have changed.

ACE
Message: Posted by: Acecardician (Mar 4, 2010 11:35PM)
I was hesitant to get into this discussion at first, but now I am really getting into it. It is fun. My second hobby.

The Range does have a special rig set up with safety features to try firearms that have been modified. But I would hate to destroy a collectors item.
This range is in southern Mississippi, my future in-law is a Range Officer, a retired Marine Gunnery Sergeant and also a gunsmith.

Before I knew him, I moved to Mississippi in the 90's when I had a casino gig for 2 years. At the time I asked several officers what the rules were about carrying, and they said they encourage citizens to carry so they will have less work to do! They said just leave it in view it on the front seat of your vehicle. No permit necessary. When I got back here, the officers here said the same thing.
My girlfriend lived in a decent N.O. neighborhood before I met her, and someone was breaking into her nice uptown apartment. She got her 6" barrel Colt Anaconda 44 Magnum and came after him while dialing 911. Luckily, the criminal ran.
When the cops came, they told her if she had to shoot the criminal, be sure to drag him into the house. If she could not lift him, then call that particular officer, and he will help her. Our officers here also look out for our citizens. She is a blond blue eyed lady and was living alone, so I'm sure that had something to do with it. :bg:
In my first firearm group, I was assigned as the safety officer.
Now we are both sharpshooters. Just try to get into our house now! I purposely moved to a very safe neighborhood and pay extra to live here, just because in my older age, I really don't want to have to shoot anyone. But just in case, we are ready in a moments notice.

ACE :cowboy: :gunfighter:
Message: Posted by: Acecardician (Mar 5, 2010 12:16AM)
Or I could just perform the Chinese Sticks for an intruder!(You can tell I am bored tonight!)

http://s474.photobucket.com/albums/rr110/ChineseSticks/?start=all

ACE :dance:
Message: Posted by: patrick flanagan (Mar 5, 2010 10:13AM)
[quote]
On 2010-03-04 23:31, Acecardician wrote:
If I even do this, I will give it to some maniac to try.
ACE
[/quote]

Where do you find a "qualified" maniac? Are they listed in the phone book?

[quote]She got her 6" barrel Colt Anaconda 44 Magnum and came after him while dialing 911. [/quote]

Anaconda and Magnum in the same sentence? What kind of a place is this?
Message: Posted by: Acecardician (Mar 5, 2010 11:52AM)
[quote]
On 2010-03-05 11:13, patrick flanagan wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-03-04 23:31, Acecardician wrote:
If I even do this, I will give it to some maniac to try.
ACE
[/quote]

Where do you find a "qualified" maniac? Are they listed in the phone book?

[quote]She got her 6" barrel Colt Anaconda 44 Magnum and came after him while dialing 911. [/quote]

Anaconda and Magnum in the same sentence? What kind of a place is this?
[/quote]

You can find the qualified Maniacs in Mississippi.

It is printed right on the side of the Colt: quote: "Colt Anaconda 44 Magnum".
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v238/Gixerman1000/Handguns/ColtAnaconda44mag.jpg

What kind of a place is this?
A VERY SAFE PLACE!

ACE
Message: Posted by: tabman (Mar 5, 2010 12:11PM)
That is a sweet pistola. Nice.

And the idea of firing Chinese Sticks.

Pull my finger!! ;)
Message: Posted by: Alan Munro (Mar 5, 2010 02:22PM)
[quote]
On 2010-03-04 12:17, Neal Alexander wrote:
I suspect that if carrying guns were legal in the U.K. we'd all be dead within a fortnight. Don't believe all that stuff you hear about us being civilised and well mannered, we're mostly drunken barbarians. ;)
[/quote]
I have a higher opinion of Brits than that. Although, the nightly problems at pubs, a few years ago, caused a change in the hours of operation.

In Michigan, we've had a carry and conceal law for a few years, allowing us to carry a concealed weapon, if we have a permit and take the necessary classes. Some warned that gun violence would escalate - it didn't. In fact, I think violent crime went down. I feel safer knowing that enough people have CCW permits and the crooks don't know who these people are. A number of my friends carry a gun and few of them have ever had a need to even show it to anyone.
Message: Posted by: ugdini13 (Mar 5, 2010 02:28PM)
This thread is beggin for a response from Randy Wakeman. In addition to his magic writing he also has written several gun related articles.

The only protection I carry is a tide stain stick in case I get spilled on


KELLY
Message: Posted by: epoptika (Mar 5, 2010 08:39PM)
[quote]
On 2010-03-05 01:16, Acecardician wrote:
Or I could just perform the Chinese Sticks for an intruder!(You can tell I am bored tonight!)

http://s474.photobucket.com/albums/rr110/ChineseSticks/?start=all

ACE :dance:
[/quote]

That's a very nice collection of sticks you have there Ace.
Message: Posted by: Michael Peterson (Mar 6, 2010 12:19PM)
Here's what ya do-

Throw a handful of slush powder in their eyes and blind them, then do bowling ball from briefcase & drop it on their foot.


Mike
Message: Posted by: griffindance (Mar 6, 2010 12:51PM)
I've only skipped through most of this thread but I've got to say,

"Most of you are serious nutters!"

Seriously now. You are magicians. We make people say "Wow!" "Cool!" and if we're really good "Oh My Gawd!" You are talking about bringing weapons to shows. This post started with a story about childrens entertainment. Even if you regularly do shows for the Crips, Gypsy Jokers or your local italian 'businessmans' association you are Entertainers and your main concern is to leave your clients/client's guests happy. Nothing dampens an evening quite like seeing the happy magician punch out Brian from accounting.


Although the more militant types may already be starting their hunt for the bleeding hearts liberal I do have a point.

Angry parents, drunk party guests, or just juvenile attention seekers can ruin a nights fun for you and your clients. Most of these people who would give grief to a magician just want attention in the form of aggravation. don't give it to them! Derren Brown has a nice technique for getting rid of offstage hecklers - Talk to them. Five minutes breathing at someone (even if it was their sprog who kicked you and then tried to steal your doves and rabbits) is a much more sensible approach than having to explain why the .32 calibre zipwand killed a father, two minors and blew off your hand.
Message: Posted by: Alexander Wells (Mar 6, 2010 02:00PM)
[quote]
On 2010-03-05 15:22, Alan Munro wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-03-04 12:17, Neal Alexander wrote:
I suspect that if carrying guns were legal in the U.K. we'd all be dead within a fortnight. Don't believe all that stuff you hear about us being civilised and well mannered, we're mostly drunken barbarians. ;)
[/quote]
I have a higher opinion of Brits than that. Although, the nightly problems at pubs, a few years ago, caused a change in the hours of operation.


[/quote]

I'm sure your high opinion of us is justified. I was being rather flippant. :)
This whole discussion sounds very odd to my English ears.
It's a historical thing, even our police officers don't routinely carry guns.
If you talk too much about guns in the U.K. people think you're a nutter. Guns don't really have the same place in our society. They're mainly the preserve of the country (shotguns and rifles for hunting and controlling pests) or criminals. Handguns are illegal full stop for civilians now in the U.K.
Message: Posted by: gaddy (Mar 6, 2010 03:13PM)
[quote]
On 2010-03-06 13:51, griffindance wrote:
I've only skipped through most of this thread but I've got to say,

"Most of you are serious nutters!"

Seriously now. You are magicians. We make people say "Wow!" "Cool!" and if we're really good "Oh My Gawd!" You are talking about bringing weapons to shows. This post started with a story about childrens entertainment. Even if you regularly do shows for the Crips, Gypsy Jokers or your local italian 'businessmans' association you are Entertainers and your main concern is to leave your clients/client's guests happy. Nothing dampens an evening quite like seeing the happy magician punch out Brian from accounting.


Although the more militant types may already be starting their hunt for the bleeding hearts liberal I do have a point.

Angry parents, drunk party guests, or just juvenile attention seekers can ruin a nights fun for you and your clients. Most of these people who would give grief to a magician just want attention in the form of aggravation. don't give it to them! Derren Brown has a nice technique for getting rid of offstage hecklers - Talk to them. Five minutes breathing at someone (even if it was their sprog who kicked you and then tried to steal your doves and rabbits) is a much more sensible approach than having to explain why the .32 calibre zipwand killed a father, two minors and blew off your hand.
[/quote]

The people who understand what you are saying already know this, and the ones who don't are not going to stop yammering about the size of their "zip-wands", the cost/benefit ratio of hollow point vs. metal jacket, or how dangerous those tattooed bikers who didn't get their balloons are anyhow.

A polite conversation on this subject at, say, the hospitality suite of a decent magic convention would have stalled from awkward silences and attempts to change the subject a dozen times over, but this [i]IS[/i] the internet, you know...


Maybe a couple of real... um... "gun aficionados" would have retired back to their respective hotel rooms to admire each other's, um... collections... But anyone with a clue would have realized this topic isn't, nay [i]cannot[/i], go anywhere constructive from this point on.

PS- Brian in accounting had it coming.
Message: Posted by: derrick (Mar 6, 2010 03:50PM)
OK gaddy, you can't be an "Agent of Chaos" with an attitude like that. Seriously though you are probably right about how constructive any of this is at this point. Regarding this situation, I really wasn't aware the guy was angry until the parent of another child let me know he was standing off the side steaming mad. By the time I finished the line he was no longer inside the restaurant. I thought he had gone home until he passed me with the same steaming mad look on his face at Best Buy 15 or so minutes later. I frankly removed myself from the store as quickly as possible so there would not be a confrontation. My feeling at the time, and still is, that it wouldn't have been prudent to try to talk to this guy.
Message: Posted by: Metatron (Mar 6, 2010 05:27PM)
Gaddy,

[quote]
On 2010-02-27 15:01, gaddy wrote:
Before this degenerates into a general "gun rights" or "the best type of ammunition" thread, I'd like to bring us back to the original point of the thread which ran along the lines of [i][b]bring in firearms to one's magic gigs "for protection"[/i][/b] -Which strikes me as one of the most absurd subjects I've ever encountered on the Magic Café.
[/quote]

This one was constructive. Especially calling it the most absurd subject you've ever encountered on the Magic Café. Yet, you continue to post.


[quote]
On 2010-02-25 04:47, gaddy wrote:
I don't feel safe unless my entire country is protected by intercontinental ballistic missiles, B1-B bombers and Ohio Class nuclear submarines. Needless to say, I usually feel pretty safe to whip out my sponge bunnies as I see fit, or not!

The crack-heads, gangbangers, monty gangs, gypsy fortune-tellers, pickpockets and con men who I work around ALL THE TIME as a street entertainer are all getting a right, good, chuckle at the moment, and are all asking where do you live...

BTW- are you actually saying that you sometimes carry a firearm to magic gigs and now always will?
[/quote]


Another constructive comment. I like the comment of the crackheads laughing at him! ;)

[quote]

The people who understand what you are saying already know this, and the ones who don't are not going to stop yammering about the size of their "zip-wands", the cost/benefit ratio of hollow point vs. metal jacket, or how dangerous those tattooed bikers who didn't get their balloons are anyhow.

A polite conversation on this subject at, say, the hospitality suite of a decent magic convention would have stalled from awkward silences and attempts to change the subject a dozen times over, but this [i]IS[/i] the internet, you know...


Maybe a couple of real... um... "gun aficionados" would have retired back to their respective hotel rooms to admire each other's, um... collections... But anyone with a clue would have realized this topic isn't, nay [i]cannot[/i], go anywhere constructive from this point on.

PS- Brian in accounting had it coming.
[/quote]

Boy this comment was sure constructive. Especially all the sexual induendos. Talk about yammering .... Besides if YOU had a CLUE you'd know it's not the SIZE of your "Zip Wand" it's how you USE IT! :)

Come on. What did you expect with a question like: I twist balloons. Should I carry a Gun?

It's a personal choice to carry or not carry a firearm. His choice. Is it right or wrong? Well he has to determine that. Most of the comments are just people having fun and making jokes, just like you've been doing, Gaddy.

For those that really don't have a clue ZIP WAND = JOKE! I personally don't own a gun or carry any kind of weapon on me ever. Never would. But that's MY choice.

Besides you can kill more people with a balloon. It's the #1 choking hazard in the world. Balloons have killed more kids than guns have! Think about that.

Excuse my yammering, but it is the Internet you know ... :)

Metatron
Message: Posted by: gaddy (Mar 6, 2010 09:32PM)
[quote]
On 2010-03-06 18:27, Metatron wrote:
This one was constructive. Especially calling it the most absurd subject you've ever encountered on the Magic Café. Yet, you continue to post.
[/quote]
I'm a big fan of absurdity. What can I say... :baby:

[quote]
On 2010-03-06 18:27, Metatron wrote:
Another constructive comment. I like the comment of the crackheads laughing at him! ;)
[/quote]
Thanks! I'm glad my sarcastic wit shines thru! It actually took me a couple of minutes to come up with [i]exactly[/i] the right words to use there. And let me tell you, those crackheads were no help whatsoever.
[quote][quote]
PS- Brian in accounting had it coming.
[/quote]
Boy this comment was sure constructive. Especially all the sexual induendos. Talk about yammering .... Besides if YOU had a CLUE you'd know it's not the SIZE of your "Zip Wand" it's how you USE IT! :)
[/quote]
I wasn't talking about what Brian did, I was talking about what was done [i]TO[/i] him. Boy, you've got a dirty mind... :winker:

[quote]
Come on. What did you expect with a question like: I twist balloons. Should I carry a Gun?[/quote]

About 12 pages of responses by now. These guys don't know JACK about guns [i]or[/i] the relative benefits of hollow points, rigging your own zip guns, or the FPS of a and stopping power of a .45 acp...


Actually, THAT summary of this thread, put in those words, is really quite funny! [quote]
It's a personal choice to carry or not carry a firearm. His choice. Is it right or wrong? Well he has to determine that. [b][i]Most of the comments are just people having fun and making jokes, just like you've been doing, Gaddy.[/i][/b][/quote]
Which is also a right (or rather, a privilege, here on the Café -which is owned by Mr. Brooks who graciously allows to enjoy the conversation here...)
[quote]Besides you can kill more people with a balloon. It's the #1 choking hazard in the world. Balloons have killed more kids than guns have! Think about that. [/quote]
Guns don't kill people, statistics do.

[quote]
Excuse my yammering, but it is the Internet you know ... :)

Metatron
[/quote]

I couldn't have put it better myself.
Message: Posted by: Metatron (Mar 6, 2010 10:48PM)
Gaddy,

Your hilarious! ;)

Thanks. You made my day!

Metatron

P.S. I better get out of TROLL mode before I actually upset someone.

Great thread Derrick. I know it was serious question, worthy of pondering. But you got to admit that some of the humor posted in this thread was pretty funny (in a sick kinda way ;) )
Message: Posted by: Acecardician (Mar 7, 2010 01:21PM)
http://www.glock.com/english/glock21.htm :bg:
Message: Posted by: griffindance (Mar 11, 2010 06:55PM)
I used to work with this short english guy in Australia. Shakespearean actor type. We would do various types of gigs. Magic, dance shows, modelling shows corporate events and I never saw him lose control in front of a client and rarely in front of the guests. One nightclub gig was a Living Statue gig for some Alco-pop promotion. Hence these drinks were all half price. He had scared some neanderthal type group of women who all screamed and then squealed in delight at each other and disappeared into the club. After an hour we were getting ready to leave and one comes back. She had been taking full advantage of the promotion and had decided that we had embarrassed her and owed her money(??). After the club security seperated her from us we left to our car, only to be followed by her and one more of the group. I managed to get my mate into the car without her as well, inspite of her attempts. And with her screaming abuse at us and standing in front of my car she decides that spitting at the windshield is going to make us change heart and hand over our money. At this point my friend, who has until now been maintaining the 'Statue' act steps out of the car and lets loose. Dressed as a grecian statue and covered with gold body paint he booms away for an entire minute (without swearing) calling her some of the most atrocious things ("arse" re - her face. With a broad english shakespearean voice it means donkey) and suggesting that her time would be better spent at home with her friend (something to do with flaps, having to find them) although she had probably been doing some of that (licking of said found flaps) already tonight as her breath stunk of urinal cakes. Neanderthal woman was so shocked by this personal assessment and suggestion of future recreational activities that she stepped back away from the car, tripped over the curb and sat down where she fell. My mate got back in the car and calmly said "I think that did it. Lets go!"

Job finished, no runnng away necessary, client happy, Wild drunken potatoe okka dealt with.

In spite of my "Lets all just be friends" attitude its only because I want the client to pay up and even re-book.

However Brian from accounting always deserves what he gets!!
Message: Posted by: Acecardician (Mar 12, 2010 10:15PM)
Great post griffindance! I really laughed imagining this happening.
Sometimes you have to do what it takes to diffuse a situation. Diplomacy usually works, but you can't reason with a drunk.
I think ya'll did the right thing.

In the 70's I was a teenager. I was at the Greyhound bus station in New Orleans, coming from a weekend at my uncles house, headed back to the suburbs. I had to wait in the bus lot for the bus. There were people scattered around, but I was standing there alone.
A couple of small wanna-be thugs walked up to me and asked if I had any money. I said no, and showed them a trick. It was one where the picture of Houdini vanished out of his chains in a little plastic box. Then the guy wanted to know where the little man went. I said he disappeared. Then the dominant thug was saying "tell me where the little man is, or I will cut you!" So I pulled out a long rope and silk and went into a big elaborate routine, raising my voice, and it drew a crowd, and I got subtly got the attention of the security(I looked like a punk kid in tie-dye and long hair at the time). I said loud how I was "the magician" and positioned myself closer to the security guy. The wanna be thugs faded away. By then the bus had pulled in and I boarded and went home. I was never scared, I'm was too belligerent. I'm still kind of like that, even though I mellowed out a little in my older age, :)

ACE
Message: Posted by: mota (Mar 16, 2010 12:58AM)
I skipped about a bit in this five page thread but have some thoughts to add...

Fake gun sounds are not a good idea. Many people carry real guns, not just in Texas.

Being "tough" is a bad idea unless you have no out. Avoiding the fight is the best out. You never lose a fight you are not in and it is important to emphasize these are not school yard fights...the other person will probably try to kill you and one lucky strike can end things before you can act. You are not immortal.

Concealed weapons charges could bite you in the butt too.

I recommend the Cold Steel Sharkie. It is a pen/marker designed to be used as a kubotan/Yawara stick. You basically have a small rod of steel-like material (the marker is made of the same substance as a police night stick) in your hand and it doesn't look like a weapon. Not real complicated to use (start smashing with the narrow end of it to anywhere bone is near skin) but you need to be aware that strikes in the neck and head could be lethal.

Amazon sells them as does the manufacturer ( http://www.coldsteel.com/sharkies.html) and many others. The clip they say is for putting it in a shirt pocket doesn't work well (too loose) but the rest of it works as advertised and fits well in a pants pocket.

Don't be an internet tough guy in real life...you will get hurt. The Sharkie will not beat a gun at a distance but in close quarters it is who gets off first that usually counts. Fighting should always be a last resort, things never go as you rehearse in the gym.

Overall, though, I would not take self-defense advise from a magic board without checking it with those who really know first.
Message: Posted by: ray raymond (Mar 16, 2010 09:17AM)
A lot of gun haters on hear. One fact is More people die every day in car accidents than by bullets. Out of concern for safety should vehicles be outlawed? Reading the original post I don't think the guy threatened the magician in question, how ever I can see how that would be very intimidating. Another fact is people have been getting murdered for thousands of years before the gun was invented. I do not feel the need to carry but do support the constitutional right to do so.

earlier somebody wrote" Europeans are shaking their heads in wonder". So am I because in England the police will blow their whistles shake their sticks and ask the criminals with guns to stop. Then they hope they do.

When citizens are armed violent crime drops. When citizens are not armed they can become targets.
Message: Posted by: KirkG (Mar 16, 2010 09:50AM)
Dear Tim,

I fear you have misunderstood the article you read, or are deliberately trying to mis-inform this point. The quote you pulled is a quote from "For example, the Handgun Control, Inc. pamphlet, "Carrying Concealed Weapons--Questions and Answers," notes the following:" that the article was quoting as a point to refute, rather than one it supports.

HCI is an ANTI-GUN ORGANIZATION, notorious for fabricating statistics and all their points have been refuted time and time again, by FBI and DOJ records and files. At the end of that quote is a link to the follow up data.

The basic premise of the article is that violent crime DROPPED Wherever right to carry was implemented. Having "guns in the streets" never caused a problem for the police or general citizenry.


[quote]
On 2010-02-25 10:45, Tim Dowd wrote:
There are many views on this here is one I heard a long time ago "A recent FBI study showed that police officers who are killed in the line of duty rarely even fire a round at their assailant, and frequently the police officer's own firearm is taken from him/her and used against him/her. An FBI study of 51 incidents where 54 police officers were killed found that 85% did not fire their weapon while 20% were killed with their own gun" if the trained police are in danger from criminals just think how Joe Blow will fare. He who lives by the sword...

got the quote from here: http://homepage.usask.ca/~sta575/cdn-firearms/Snyder/right2carry.html
[/quote]
Message: Posted by: KirkG (Mar 16, 2010 10:11AM)
Metatron,

See! I knew we could come up with something more important to argue about. ;)




[quote]
On 2010-03-02 11:23, Metatron wrote:


" How many legally armed citizens attack unarmed citizens with handguns in your area? This is what I mean about not recognizing the reality that exists outside of the emotion. "

The fact is most accidental gun deaths do involve a registered weapon. Criminals shooting guns are not considered accidents. Metatron [/quote]

This is called mis reading statistics to make your point. Kinda like saying "most dui arrests are of ADULTS, so all adults are bad".

Sure "accidental gun deaths" are made with registered weapons, because CRIMINAL gun deaths" aren't accidents. Either caused by criminals or done to criminals. When you add those to the equation the numbers are put into perspective.

There are a whole lot of ( more in fact) kids killed every year by 5 gallon buckets that guns. Just so ya know. :)
Message: Posted by: Donnie Buckley (Mar 16, 2010 11:32AM)
A lot of overkill advocated here.

A guy felt threatened in an electronics store.

How is carrying a weapon going to prevent that? It's not. What are you going to do, brandish your pistol and tell him to back off? Good luck explaining that to the cops.
If he was legitimately threatened, dial 911 - everyone has a right to carry a concealed mobile phone.
Do I carry protection to a gig? Yes, I carry a mobile phone. (And before you make assumptions and call me a "gun hater", I got my first rifle at age 13.)
Message: Posted by: Tim Dowd (Mar 16, 2010 12:17PM)
I can't believe this thread is still going ;) I am just glad I live where this is a moot point... Bavarian Bier get's you drunk from the feet up - so everyone's happy and those who are grumpy can't stand up...

to tell you the truth I didn't even read the article I quoted, I was just looking on the internet for something to corroborate my view that carrying a gun is dangerous; looks like you got me...

Prost!

[quote]
On 2010-03-16 10:50, KirkG wrote:
Dear Tim,

I fear you have misunderstood the article you read, or are deliberately trying to mis-inform this point. The quote you pulled is a quote from "For example, the Handgun Control, Inc. pamphlet, "Carrying Concealed Weapons--Questions and Answers," notes the following:" that the article was quoting as a point to refute, rather than one it supports.

HCI is an ANTI-GUN ORGANIZATION, notorious for fabricating statistics and all their points have been refuted time and time again, by FBI and DOJ records and files. At the end of that quote is a link to the follow up data.

The basic premise of the article is that violent crime DROPPED Wherever right to carry was implemented. Having "guns in the streets" never caused a problem for the police or general citizenry.


[quote]
On 2010-02-25 10:45, Tim Dowd wrote:
There are many views on this here is one I heard a long time ago "A recent FBI study showed that police officers who are killed in the line of duty rarely even fire a round at their assailant, and frequently the police officer's own firearm is taken from him/her and used against him/her. An FBI study of 51 incidents where 54 police officers were killed found that 85% did not fire their weapon while 20% were killed with their own gun" if the trained police are in danger from criminals just think how Joe Blow will fare. He who lives by the sword...

got the quote from here: http://homepage.usask.ca/~sta575/cdn-firearms/Snyder/right2carry.html
[/quote]
[/quote]
Message: Posted by: derrick (Mar 16, 2010 02:02PM)
I have to say that, in the store I was surprised and a bit alarmed and I did leave pretty quickly. So what if instead of following me into the store to give me a little scare, this guy was waiting for me in the parking lot and he doesn't feel like giving me the time to dial 911 and wait for the police to show up???
Message: Posted by: derrick (Mar 16, 2010 02:05PM)
Well, another argument against having handguns around.

A world-famous illusionist will spend a year in San Luis Obispo County Jail for firing a gun at his wife last year during an argument at their rural Arroyo Grande home.

Claude Douglas Yarbrough, whose stage name is Jonathan Pendragon, pleaded no contest Tuesday to two felony counts of assault with a deadly weapon for the July 8 shooting.

The 55-year-old magician will be sentenced to a year in jail April 13.

Get the whole story here:

http://www.santamariatimes.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/article_1d699430-2c11-11df-926e-001cc4c03286.html?mode=story
Message: Posted by: KirkG (Mar 16, 2010 02:48PM)
Yeah, but that really doesn't fly, because again he is the exception rather than the rule. And now, he will no longer be able to have guns as per the current regulations on the books. So no new gun laws needed.

I know you meant your comment "tongue in cheek" (TIC), but there are literal minded individuals that only want to find "words on the net" that support a position rather than actually read and understand the facts. And we all know, if it is written on the web, it must be true! :)

I do, however, wish both Jonathan and Charlotte the best and hope they are able to put this incident behind them, get the help they need, and then continue to have a long a fruitful life.
Message: Posted by: Donnie Buckley (Mar 16, 2010 04:42PM)
[quote]
On 2010-03-16 15:02, derrick wrote:
I have to say that, in the store I was surprised and a bit alarmed and I did leave pretty quickly. So what if instead of following me into the store to give me a little scare, this guy was waiting for me in the parking lot and he doesn't feel like giving me the time to dial 911 and wait for the police to show up???
[/quote]

What if?

What if he had a sniper rifle and waited at 500 yards?
What if he he put a bomb under your car?
What if he held all of Best Buy hostage until you twisted a balloon for his kid?
What if he was a cannibal?
What if he hid in your back seat and waited for you to pull into the garage?

If it's all about the "what if's", I'd never leave the house!

According to your description of the incident, he gave you a dirty look, and this thread has turned into an international 2nd Amendment Rights fest?

And so far, in six pages, not one working magician has reported actually being robbed at gun point when leaving a cash paying show!
I don't get it, did I miss something?

Can't we just talk about the pros and cons of using cloth napkins as impromptu close up mats for our chop cup routine?
Message: Posted by: KirkG (Mar 16, 2010 06:13PM)
I did watch a guy get shot at point blank range at work. Does that count? The police arrived very quickly, but not quick enough for the guy on the ground.

Most of the time we can avoid violent confrontations, but when I can't I like to know I have something to fall back on rather that waiting for the police to arrive to put up the crime scene tape and chalk out the outline of my body on the concrete.

I think you hit a very important point here. The actual subset of magicians getting held up is very small. Probably because we are a small subset of the population and work in nice locations with lots of light.

I think most of us, by virtue of our performing ability, don't get into confrontations and can diffuse them by humor, too.

My protection was six guys over 6'-5" who surrounded whoever was being "tacky" and walking him out of the venue, when I worked at the So Cal Ren Faire in Agoura. Very effective deterrent. Now it is just me and six slightly smaller friends, but they are very fast. :)
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Mar 16, 2010 07:16PM)
Kirk, you're cracking me up.

.... slightly smaller! :)
Message: Posted by: Stanyon (Mar 16, 2010 07:36PM)
Sheep would be eaten by wolves if it were not for the sheepdogs and yet, in reality, the sheep hate the sheepdogs. Yes some sheep will still get eaten but the sheepdog will keep most of them safe from the wolves.

Huh?????
Message: Posted by: nonvpro (Mar 16, 2010 07:39PM)
When I was dating I always carried protection!
Message: Posted by: patrick flanagan (Mar 17, 2010 10:29AM)
Sheep don't like sheepdogs? I was unaware of that. How do they feel about brocoli?
Oh my!!! this gives me 666 posts....aaarrrgghhhh! Where is Tony Andrucci (sic?) when ya need him?
Message: Posted by: Donnie Buckley (Mar 17, 2010 10:54AM)
Blessed be Patrick, 666 posts on St. Patty's Day!
Message: Posted by: acesover (Mar 17, 2010 01:43PM)
[quote]
On 2010-03-16 13:17, Tim Dowd wrote:
I can't believe this thread is still going ;) I am just glad I live where this is a moot point... Bavarian Bier get's you drunk from the feet up - so everyone's happy and those who are grumpy can't stand up...

to tell you the truth I didn't even read the article I quoted, I was just looking on the internet for something to corroborate my view that carrying a gun is dangerous; looks like you got me...

Prost!


____________________________________________________________________________


Where is it that you actually live that it is Crime Free? Sounds like Utopia. No guns, no crime, no rape, no robbery, no assault, no break ins. Fantastic. Must be the beer. So exactly where is this Crime Free domain?
Message: Posted by: Tim Dowd (Mar 17, 2010 07:17PM)
I live just outside Regensburg in Bavaria. It has become famous because the Pope lives here (or lived here before he moved to Rome) I still see his brother on the streets quite often in the summer. It is a university town and has the most restaurants and bars per capita than any other German town. It is known as the northern most Italian city because of the Mediterranean flair and street life. It hosts the oldest stone bridge over the Danube and the oldest sausage kitchen in the world. It is home to the first coffee house in Germany and has just become a world heritage site. It was saved from distructiion during the second world war by a forward thinking German soldier who capitulated to the American tank corps taking position on the hills above the Danube so they wouldn't bomb the town. The history goes back even further than that to Roman times when it was called Castra Regina and became the capital city of Bavaria for centuries. It was home to Don Juan d'Austria and Keppler.

My wife used to ride her bike through the town after playing cards in a local bar with her friends at anytime between midnight and 3AM with no issues in the "Eighties" and my daughter now does the same now in the "Noughties". As an Englishman I am probably the most dangerous person in town at any one time. No one seems to be violent in the street or in shops.

On the other hand we do have murders and violent crime but it seems to be contained to a specific group and/or lifestyle choice (drugs, gambling, neo-facists and "Hard Men" in general) but these are easy to avoid... as I did in Richmond VA from 1997 to 2001.

Where I do see an issue is on the "Autobahn" where any Tom, Dick or Helmut can drive his 2 ton weapon on wheels at 150 mph, pull out without indicating, drive 3 inches off your back bumper with the cell phone on his ear and a cigar in his mouth.

So walk the streets, take the bus, drink the beer and have fun... move away from your ghetto's and get a life.

Before quoting me again, read my signature...
Message: Posted by: Whit Haydn (Mar 18, 2010 01:40AM)
I have performed magic for fifty years, all over the world. I started as a street performer on the pavements of NYC. I worked as a "hippie" in aome really tough and dangerous bars in the South (North Carolina, Tennessee, South Carolina, Georgia, Florida and Alabama), for Hell's Angels and biker bars in the North and far West of the country, and pretty much everywhere.

I've worked in Europe, on the streets, and England. I've performed in Israel on the streets. I've traveled through Mombasa, Djibouti, Hong Kong and Australia. I worked in Jamaica, Puerto Rico, Chili, Peru, and Mexico.

On the street, the only protection I ever had was a pretty thick magic wand, made of solid walnut, and about one inch by fourteen. I never used it in a fight or for protection.

I have never owned or carried a gun. Don't have anything against them.

Just been fortunate I guess. Maybe I am just more sanguine than I should be.

The couple of times I have been mugged or robbed, I was not working. I was in a "safe" place where I wasn't expecting anything to happen, and wouldn't have been armed anyway.

Not being in control of the situation is a normal state for me. I don't fear it. It hasn't kept me from doing anything I wanted to do. I am nearing 61 years old.

I have herded sheep with a sheep dog. They got along just fine. The sheep actually liked my Aussie very, very much, as annoying as he could sometimes be. I felt the same way.
Message: Posted by: tomterm8 (Mar 18, 2010 04:50AM)
Hm, in my life I've been assaulted twice. Once with a broken bottle. On both occasions, it was near my home, unprovoked, and it happened as a complete surprise. I don't carry a gun (it's not legal where I am), and frankly I don't think it would have helped me much. Assaults tend to come as a surprise. Villains don't hang still while you shoot them.

I agree with Whit on the sheepdog thing, sheep and dogs get on very well together. In the old days they used to have a sheepdog sleep with the lambs, because a dog will fight to the death to protect other members of his pack, and the dog counts the sheep as pack.
Message: Posted by: Donnie Buckley (Mar 18, 2010 08:44AM)
Tim, Regensburg sounds lovely! What a thoroughly charming description, I am envious of the delightful Bavarian community you and your family must enjoy. Thank you for your post.

And Pop, you are a voice of reason in this thread. Thank you for your wonderful, brief travelogue! I knew you had been around the block, but I had no idea how far!

I own guns, for sport, but would never carry one for protection. When my guns leave home they are unloaded and in cases. I was raised in the sticks and my whole family would shoot on a regular basis. I was raised with a range in the back yard and pulled skeet for my father. I've fired so many different weapons I can't even recall of them. My father taught me how to shoot.
I live in the city now and have to visit my buddy to shoot on his private property, or sometimes at the indoor range. I have nothing against guns but I'm not paranoid enough to think that I need to carry one around for protection.

I have a friend who got picked up for Disorderly Conduct while Intoxicated and she was carrying a concealed stun gun. The DCI is usually just a fine and a lecture from the judge, but because she was carrying the stun gun, she was charged with a first degree misdemeanor. It is illegal in our city to carry a stun gun. She is probably going to get 30 days in jail - just because of the stun gun. She could get as much as 90 days. Her sentencing is next week. I wish her luck.
Message: Posted by: KirkG (Mar 18, 2010 03:18PM)
Single anecdotal evidence, mine included, doesn't amount to a statistical hill of beans. I don't plan on getting into car accidents, but I buy insurance and wear seat belts.

I haven't been shot, or deliberately shot at, but it has happened around me so sometimes, I go armed.

The largest group of statistics from the DOJ definitely show that the more guns in the hands of law abiding citizens, the lower the violent crime rate and vice versa.

All we ask is that those who don't choose to carry or want to carry or even like guns, just leave our rights alone.
Message: Posted by: MagicbyCarlo (Mar 19, 2010 03:05PM)
OMG is this thread still alive?

I figured by now it would have been shot to death.

I think the issue is that the discussion is one of personal belief, experience and preference. Some elements are rational some are not. Frankly I do what I do without regard for anyone else's opinion on the matter and I have no preference for what other individuals do or do not do with regard to this topic.

With regard to questions of "what if?" being not valid: that's an extremely weak point. It's our nature to protect our selves from threats (physical, environmental, and spiritual) and to claim that one set of "what if?" is somehow more of less valid than another is not reasonable (what if: a legal gun owner shoots himself... shoots and innocent bystander... gets drunk... is disarmed... gun falls into a child's hands...???? etc.)
So both the pro and con side of this discussion use "what if?" with equal validity.

I also scoff at people who enter a conversation or debate with the intent of voicing dissatisfaction with the topic of the debate. While this seems a bit out of place in a magic forum, it seems that it is here and that's the long and short of it.

Now I'm going to work on my multiplying and color changing Derringer routine!
Message: Posted by: Mike.Hankins (Mar 20, 2010 01:54AM)
Pop out a fire wallet and scare the poop out of them...lol

Hey I have everyone here beat...while in the USMC, I performed some card effects on the battlefield in Fallujah, Iraq. :)

Mike
Message: Posted by: Metatron (Mar 20, 2010 09:01AM)
My sheep thinks he is a dog!


[img]http://i.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01134/sheep-dog_1134050i.jpg[/img]
Message: Posted by: Metatron (Mar 20, 2010 09:05AM)
Here is my sheep preparing to go do a magic show!

[img]http://orri.blog.is/users/49/orri/img/c_documents_and_settings_notandi_my_documents_my_pictures_killer_sheep.jpg[/img]
Message: Posted by: tabman (Mar 20, 2010 09:57AM)
[quote]
On 2010-03-20 02:54, Mike.Hankins wrote:....Hey I have everyone here beat...while in the USMC, I performed some card effects on the battlefield in Fallujah, Iraq. :)...[/quote]

What were the effects, that's very cool???

40 years ago I was trying to do spirit nut off a boot lace on a chopper over S. Vietnam for a couple of friends while traveling for a USO show headed to DaNang but we came under fire and my audience lost interest. I still have the set.

My godson is a Marine in Afganistan right now.
Message: Posted by: jtmorris (Mar 20, 2010 01:23PM)
I didn't have time to read the last three pages, but not sure if anyone pointed out that just about every magician already carries the right tools to protect themselves. They just need to learn how to use them: http://www.bookride.com/2008/09/cards-as-weapons-by-ricky-jay.html
Message: Posted by: griffindance (Mar 20, 2010 09:00PM)
I like guns. They're heavy, shiny and make me feel like a man. Slightly embarrassing but true.

As far as gun control goes though I hear simlar arguements. More legal guns equal lower crime rates. Criminals don't wait for the police. Criminals will obtain firearms illegally with or without gun control. Its my right to protect myself!

All of them right to degrees. And yes I hear that most gunowners are law abiding, safety-practicing good people.

But what makes gun control worthwhile IS the exceptions to these cases.
A child playing with a gun on the ONLY three minute occassion it wasnt locked in the gunsafe in over ten years. Claude Yarbrough and (for the Australians) Arthur Bryant.

Yes these are exceptions to the norm, but I feel safer that the Bryants of the world have less of a chance to do as they do with tighter gun control. I would love to have a gun, but so do the people who could really ruin your afternoon with only a .22 handgun.



But the really important thing is NO! Never use a paper napkin as a close up pad. The coins can still talk through paper you cheap magicman. Buy a closeup pad!!!
Message: Posted by: KirkG (Mar 20, 2010 10:30PM)
The argument that it might save one ( or a few lives) doesn't hold water, because the exact opposite is also true. Having a gun readily available might save one or a few lives too. Except it has been shown that the first choice happens rarely, and the second choice with much greater frequency.

If all cars were banned, then there would be no more car accidents, is another example.

For me it is simple, if there were no weapons in the hands of criminals, then I would consider giving up most, if not all of my guns. The FACT, that even in a JAIL, a truly limited personal freedom lifestyle, the authorities cannot live up to that standard, means that I will continue to provide protection for me and my own.
Message: Posted by: gaddy (Mar 21, 2010 12:33AM)
[quote]
On 2010-03-20 10:57, tabman wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-03-20 02:54, Mike.Hankins wrote:....Hey I have everyone here beat...while in the USMC, I performed some card effects on the battlefield in Fallujah, Iraq. :)...[/quote]

What were the effects, that's very cool???

40 years ago I was trying to do spirit nut off a boot lace on a chopper over S. Vietnam for a couple of friends while traveling for a USO show headed to DaNang but we came under fire and my audience lost interest. I still have the set.

My godson is a Marine in Afganistan right now.
[/quote]

Such terrible manners, how dare they have a war in the middle of your magic routine...
Message: Posted by: Metatron (Mar 21, 2010 07:15AM)
1880's gig protection:

[img]http://www.slipperybrick.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/gun.jpg[/img]
Message: Posted by: Metatron (Mar 21, 2010 07:35AM)
[img]http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/dby/lowres/dbyn4l.jpg[/img]
Message: Posted by: MagicbyCarlo (Mar 21, 2010 11:09AM)
[quote]
On 2010-03-20 10:05, Metatron wrote:
Here is my sheep preparing to go do a magic show!

[img]http://orri.blog.is/users/49/orri/img/c_documents_and_settings_notandi_my_documents_my_pictures_killer_sheep.jpg[/img]
[/quote]
Brahahahahahahahahhahhahahahaa! I sprayed coffee out of my nose!
Message: Posted by: Calvin Tong (Mar 26, 2010 04:57AM)
We had Shawn Farquhar lecture at IBM Ring 216 in SJ, Calif a few weeks back. If you have not heard his story, you should. Many years ago, a guy went after him after a show, followed him home, burned his apartment complex down, etc....

that is just the beginning of the story......
Message: Posted by: Jon Hackett (Mar 31, 2010 06:01AM)
You really do have to be pretty stupid to think that it is better to allow guns as a constitutional right than to ban them.

It is not a complex, difficult, or even inherently logical discussion, it is fact.

People don't like getting hurt or killed.

Moreover, Kirk, I wrote a 60,000 word article on why the US of A is seen as less favourable to the world than the UK. I practically disposed of that title and merely discussed the socio-economic, and colloquial implications of the guns laws in the USA. My findings pointed to so much hurt, pain and dissatisfaction that I found it remarkable that anyone could even consider it a reasonable idea. And the only argument that was seen to be a fair one (as tested by Leeds university on a sample of 12,000 international students across the country [UK]) was this,

"I have a right to my own protection"

But as ol' spiddy's Uncle Ben said,

with great power comes great responsibility.

It is true that you have a right to your own protection, but before that right comes your responsibility, to create nurture an provide a safe and loving environment for your family, and other families to then interact with. Guns are out of place here. No one wants to go round to crazy Joe's house 'cos he got the gun!

If all the pro-arms protesters spent their time creating a safe environment through crime prevention instead of crime protection you would have a beautifully safe country.

It is funny because there are very few countries in the world that share the same community spirit and nationalism (read: patriotism) that the USA does, and with that if you just concentrated on you responsibilities your rights would be free flowing.

It is wonderful to see that Obama has the foresight that Beven (the 'inventor' of the social welfare system (NHS) in England) and Clement Atlee (labour PM whom initiated the creation of the welfare system and the NHS) showed, and all people in the US of A should hopefully be provided with good quality healthcare.

Lets hope that same respect for treatment is taken with prevention, and drop the guns!!

Just my opinions...

Jon Hackett

P.S. should you carry protection to gigs? Well what do you think I am going to say!! NO. But I believe the answer is simple, don't make your self a target. don't carry a shiny briefcase, don't wear a £2000 watch, and drop out of character and stop grabbing attention. I carry all my stuff in a plastic bag.
Message: Posted by: M Sini (Mar 31, 2010 08:24AM)
[quote]
On 2010-03-31 07:01, Jon Hackett wrote:
You really do have to be pretty stupid to think that it is better to allow guns as a constitutional right than to ban them.

It is not a complex, difficult, or even inherently logical discussion, it is fact.

People don't like getting hurt or killed.

Moreover, Kirk, I wrote a 60,000 word article on why the US of A is seen as less favourable to the world than the UK. I practically disposed of that title and merely discussed the socio-economic, and colloquial implications of the guns laws in the USA. My findings pointed to so much hurt, pain and dissatisfaction that I found it remarkable that anyone could even consider it a reasonable idea. And the only argument that was seen to be a fair one (as tested by Leeds university on a sample of 12,000 international students across the country [UK]) was this,

"I have a right to my own protection"

But as ol' spiddy's Uncle Ben said,

with great power comes great responsibility.

It is true that you have a right to your own protection, but before that right comes your responsibility, to create nurture an provide a safe and loving environment for your family, and other families to then interact with. Guns are out of place here. No one wants to go round to crazy Joe's house 'cos he got the gun!

If all the pro-arms protesters spent their time creating a safe environment through crime prevention instead of crime protection you would have a beautifully safe country.

It is funny because there are very few countries in the world that share the same community spirit and nationalism (read: patriotism) that the USA does, and with that if you just concentrated on you responsibilities your rights would be free flowing.

It is wonderful to see that Obama has the foresight that Beven (the 'inventor' of the social welfare system (NHS) in England) and Clement Atlee (labour PM whom initiated the creation of the welfare system and the NHS) showed, and all people in the US of A should hopefully be provided with good quality healthcare.

Lets hope that same respect for treatment is taken with prevention, and drop the guns!!

Just my opinions...

Jon Hackett

P.S. should you carry protection to gigs? Well what do you think I am going to say!! NO. But I believe the answer is simple, don't make your self a target. don't carry a shiny briefcase, don't wear a £2000 watch, and drop out of character and stop grabbing attention. I carry all my stuff in a plastic bag.
[/quote]

So what is this Jon? Fact or Opinion?

Your second sentence says "fact" and then you sign off with "just my opinions..."

In my opinion, it was a waste of time to read.
Message: Posted by: Jon Hackett (Mar 31, 2010 08:39AM)
Your opinion was a lot less interesting than mine though ;)

Jon Hackett
Message: Posted by: Donnie Buckley (Mar 31, 2010 08:58AM)
Jon, In other parts of the civilized world, in first world countries, the citizens are more socially evolved than they are in the US.
We need weapons in America for protection because America has dangerous, uneducated and unloved sociopathic misanthropes who learn their values from television and movies. Too many of our citizens have a gangster mentality: me first, and to h*ll with the rest.
Hopefully someday education will catch up to the overwhelming sense of self-esteem that the ignoramus's have and crime will not be a way of life for so many of these idiots so the rest of us can relax.
But until that happens, the rest of us keep firearms in our homes so we can protect our loved ones from the brutal behavior that the idiots perpetrate.
It's true that much of the fear of brutality is paranoia from fictions depicted on television and movies, but it only takes one true incident of brutality in your city to make it feel like it could happen to you at any instant and to keep a suspiscious eye on strangers, regardless of how rarely a brutal attack in your city occurs.

It's probably hard for an outsider to understand. Large parts of the US are VERY safe places to live and weapons are unnecessary, but the pockets of high crime areas pollute paradise. Hence the disparity of opinions within our own borders.

BTW, while I respect your opinion, I do think your suggestion that we HIDE our valuables is ridiculous.
Message: Posted by: Jon Hackett (Mar 31, 2010 09:13AM)
I would agree everything you say DDecea.

Of coarse choosing not to hide your valuables is a very dangerous attitude in my view, and the more flash you flash the more you'll be blinded!

But thanks for taking the time to read my rather pointless post.

Jon Hackett

p.s. none of us understand each other, even a few miles can change the microcosm of our minds so much, we can all become intolerable.
Message: Posted by: Adammcd (Mar 31, 2010 02:23PM)
Derrick, what's important is that you do what is best for you. If your comfortable and you want to because you feel like you need protection the constitution allows you to. If you don't want to, then I wouldn't. I think choosing to carry/purchase a weapon of any kind is a very personal decision and it is up to the individual whether they should or not.

Adam
Message: Posted by: KirkG (Mar 31, 2010 03:08PM)
Jon,

Well if you are going to call people stupid for not agreeing with you, then that is the pot calling the kettle black. You are entitled to your opinion however wrong or flawed the reasoning behind it. All I ask is that you don't foist your erroneous beliefs on others.

We should all feel perfectly comfortable wearing our best jewels and clothes and fancy cars visiting any neighborhood. However, it is FACT that the neighborhood where all citizens are allowed to carry guns, are the ones with the lower violent crime rate. So not allowing guns doesn't seem to be working. Just another fact.

People who own or enjoy guns aren't wacked out crazy types and by and large have a great family life and are very responsible with those guns. Come on over for a BBQ and then let's going skiing and shooting! Don't go over to "Crazy Joe's house as he is already not allowed to have guns, based on his mental and legal status. I know you meant him specifically, rather than lumping all pro gun individuals into that one category cause that would be stupid. Opps, I forgot, Pot.

The reason that it is a constitutional right to keep and bear arms is to prevent governments removing the rest of the rights of the people. Do a little history reading and you will see that registration and then confiscation is the order of events. You don't even have to go to the extreme case of the Third Reich to see this, just look at recent events in Australia.

I do totally agree that with great power comes great responsibility. Too bad so many of our politicians don't seem to agree. Good thing we have our guns in case it comes to that.

Too many liberals are coddling criminals, so it isn't about pro gun nuts not working to fix society. Jails don't work. Bullets do. Criminals exist. They don't obey laws. Cops are not required to protect any individual. So people are responsible for their own protection. A few more facts for you.

So Jon, get a grip. I think the world would much rather live in America than the UK. Just another fact. Do the math.
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Mar 31, 2010 04:10PM)
I love when people write "foist". I'm gonna read Kirk's post again.
Message: Posted by: Tim Dowd (Mar 31, 2010 06:49PM)
Jon, you have to understand that in America assassination is still seen as a political tool. If the government get too powerful assassinate them; why else have guns?. It takes time for democracies to realize that the people and the government are the same thing, the only enemy of democracy is apathy.

But this thread was about carrying protection to gigs... if you are in an area where bricks are thrown wear a helmet, if you live in an area where strangers beat you up for doing something they don't like (some inner city English pubs at closing time... road rage junkies on the M25, etc.) wear body armor. If you have a weapon of any sort on your person during a violent event, that weapon escalates the situation and could be used against you. Assuming yours is the only weapon it does not make you safer because theoretically the aggressor (not you) will have less qualms about using the weapon.

I just realized there are two asses in assassination and only one in assume.

Frank what do you think of qualms?
Message: Posted by: Tricky Tom (Mar 31, 2010 08:34PM)
[quote]


I have heard of a 9mm or 10mm, even a 45 calbre, I've carried all three on the job, but a 40 mm shell would be 1&5/8 inches across. I don't believe anyone makes a handgun like that.
[/quote]
he probably ment a 40 calbre, aint nobody making a 40 mm handgun ,umless its a flare gun.
Message: Posted by: KirkG (Mar 31, 2010 08:38PM)
Not just assassination, but revolt too!

I gotta be honest, I really don't think I will require "protection" at most of my gigs. Maybe getting to the gig, you know LA freeways. LOL

I can't remember a time when a magic show patron ever got upset, even when they lost money in a wager. I have seen drunks a time or two, get out of hand, but deadly force is not appropriate there most of the time. If it ever does "get" to be necessary, I am thankful I have that option.
Message: Posted by: Jon Hackett (Apr 1, 2010 02:44AM)
All lots of interesting thoughts, and a very interesting thread!

I do stand by what I say, I thoroughly researched and considered my work which was praised highly.

There is a serious logical disconnect in saying that I think people are stupid because they don't agree with me and that is 'pot calling kettle black' but it is a great saying.

I just want to point something out though, sorry for being a bit panickity

'We should all feel perfectly comfortable wearing our best jewels and clothes and fancy cars visiting any neighborhood. However, it is FACT that the neighborhood where all citizens are allowed to carry guns, are the ones with the lower violent crime rate. So not allowing guns doesn't seem to be working. Just another fact.'

Kirk my man, these are not facts, in order to have a fact you need three things, something measurable, something to compare it to, and a control.

The issue is that nobody can say that there is more or less crime with or without guns because no one place can exist in parallel time being exposed to all the same factors minus guns. So unfortunately there are no facts in those terms, but we can still have sociological measures by which we can stereotype and thus 'some-up' more easily.

Anyway, I'm not going to rant on.

Nice to speak to y'all!

Jon Hackett
Message: Posted by: msmaster (Apr 1, 2010 11:05AM)
I always carry an AK47 in my guitar case.
Message: Posted by: M Sini (Apr 1, 2010 12:48PM)
[quote]
On 2010-04-01 03:44, Jon Hackett wrote:

'We should all feel perfectly comfortable wearing our best jewels and clothes and fancy cars visiting any neighborhood. However, it is FACT that the neighborhood where all citizens are allowed to carry guns, are the ones with the lower violent crime rate. So not allowing guns doesn't seem to be working. Just another fact.'

Kirk my man, these are not facts, in order to have a fact you need three things, something measurable, something to compare it to, and a control.

Nice to speak to y'all!

Jon Hackett
[/quote]

Jon, actually it is FACT.

States that approve right to carry experience a significant decline in violent crime rates after the right to carry laws take effect. According to FBI crime statistics states implementing right to carry experience:
An 8 percent drop in murder rates
A 7 percent drop in aggravated assaults
A 5 percent drop in rapes
A 4.9 percent drop in all violent crime
A 2.2 percent decline in robberies.


In the U.S. anyway.
Message: Posted by: gaddy (Apr 1, 2010 02:59PM)
Wow!

Truly, all discrepancies and all statistical misrepresentations on this subject (that have, curiously enough, eluded law enforcement and social scientists since... well, since forever, basically...) have now been cleared up and neatly proven on this discussion thread IN A MAGIC FORUM ABOUT RESTAURANT WORKERS...

So now we know everything that could possibly be said on the subject.

Good work guys!
Message: Posted by: KirkG (Apr 1, 2010 03:44PM)
Gaddy,

Your sarcastic pokes at the information that exists outside of these forums is startling. I mean, who is to say that the Dr.'s and Lawyers and other professionals that frequent these forums don't have access to facts about other topics? You may have limited intellect and outside interests, but don't foist (that is for Frank) your handicap on others.

Jon,

You seem to be confusing "facts" with an "ideal experiment." Facts don't require parallel worlds to exist. What a load of c**p! ( Can we say that on here?) I am trying not to call you stupid, but you are making it very hard. You are using the Pro Gun Control practice of making broad, in accurate and unfounded, ridiculous statements and expecting us all to accept them as facts.

This has nothing to do with your scholastic paper, however well received, but only your comments here.
Message: Posted by: Donnie Buckley (Apr 1, 2010 04:55PM)
Actually, The National Research Council, of the National Academy of Sciences, cannot find any credible evidence either supporting or disproving that C&C laws reduce crime.
In 2009, the Public Health Law Research organization published an evidence summary concluding there is not enough evidence to establish the effectiveness of "Shall-Issue" laws as a public health intervention to reduce violent crime.
For every researcher saying there is a decrease in crime, there's another saying there is none.
Here's a great statistic based upon pubicly avialable records:
The Violence Policy Center documents that from May 2007 through the end of 2009, concealed carry permit holders in the U.S. have killed (that's non-justifiable homicide) at least 117 individuals, including 9 law enforcement officers.

It appears to be a case of "finding what you want" in the available data based upon your political motives.
So let's not condemn anyone for alleging the facts here - the facts are still quite open to interpretation.
Message: Posted by: gaddy (Apr 1, 2010 06:38PM)
[quote]
On 2010-04-01 16:44, KirkG wrote:
Gaddy,

Your sarcastic pokes at the information that exists outside of these forums is startling. I mean, who is to say that the Dr.'s and Lawyers and other professionals that frequent these forums don't have access to facts about other topics? You may have limited intellect and outside interests, but don't foist (that is for Frank) your handicap on others.

[/quote]

Well then... I didn't say who I was being sarcastic towards now did I? There have been as many "facts" flung about on one side of this stupid, moronic un-debate as the other, just because YOU are too self-absorbed and defensive to realize that there are things, other than yourself and your opinion, in the world is not my concern or problem.

The solutions to this issue have never been resolved by, or even agreed upon by, anyone with eyes to see a differing opinion from the other side's - but CARRY ON! I'm sure you guys will be the first!

And in such an unlikely place!

I'm truly humbled to be a part of the first flowering of the solution to the gun carrying issue at magic gigs!
Message: Posted by: KirkG (Apr 1, 2010 07:37PM)
DDecae,

I will check on those items you mentioned.

gaddy,

Your last posts did not participate in the first flowing of the discussion, but instead were ad hominem attacks on those who were participating.
Message: Posted by: gaddy (Apr 1, 2010 07:47PM)
[quote]
On 2010-04-01 20:37, KirkG wrote:
DDecae,

I will check on those items you mentioned.

gaddy,

Your last posts did not participate in the first flowing of the discussion, but instead were ad hominem attacks on those who were participating.
[/quote]

And you people out to prove how awesome your cro-magnon gun-totin' ways [i]or[/i] your buddies and their bleedin' heart kumbayha singin' gunless point of view hijacked this thread a long time ago...

...so we're even.

And don't lecture me about logical fallacies because I care not a whit in an typical, internet, un-debate as misplaced and foolish as this one. I'll be as illogical as I choose.
Message: Posted by: KirkG (Apr 1, 2010 08:56PM)
Well at least you know how you stand and we know how much value to attach to your commments.
Message: Posted by: Kevinr (Apr 1, 2010 11:12PM)
[quote]
On 2010-03-31 07:01, Jon Hackett wrote:
You really do have to be pretty stupid to think that it is better to allow guns as a constitutional right than to ban them.
[/quote]

So now all "US of A" people are stupid?

that's what your quote says... If it wasn't for us the world would have been taken over (including the UK) by the Germans.. All we asked for was a little soil to bury our dead and no we are called stupid?

How are the Muslim extremist treating you guys in the UK with all your gun protection?... Thought so..
Message: Posted by: MaxfieldsMagic (Apr 2, 2010 12:00AM)
Jon -

If you really believe that you can "create nurture and provide a safe and loving environment for your family, and other families," then go for it. I applaud your optimism. But I guess I have a more modest view of my ability to change the world, especially with so little free time to do much of anything in life but work and spend a little time with the family. Accordingly, I take the world as it is, on its own terms. I'm in law enforcement, so perhaps my outlook on human nature is affected by that. Twenty years ago I started with the goal of saving the world; now I just want to see justice done one case at a time.

Our system of criminal justice is geared towards solving crimes, rather than preventing them, so we are all ultimately responsible for our own physical safety. If a firearm is not part of your plan for your situation, that's great. There are too many of them out there anyway. But realize that what works for you is irrelevant when it comes to the rights of others, and to broader public policy. The right to self defense is the most basic of all rights, and like many rights it must be protected or it will be taken away by the well-intentioned.

Having said that, though, I'd personally never take a gun to a gig.
Message: Posted by: gaddy (Apr 2, 2010 03:04AM)
[quote]
On 2010-04-01 21:56, KirkG wrote:
Well at least you know how you stand and we know how much value to attach to your commments.
[/quote]

...convictions turn one into a convict.
Message: Posted by: Donnie Buckley (Apr 2, 2010 01:16PM)
Gaddy you're the man!
"typical internet un-debate"! excellent summary!
Seven pages of unwinnable, opinionated un-debate between the deeply entrenched and blind partisanship of the Yays and the Nays! Jeez, it's idiotic.

This topic should just be locked - it's pointless for it to continue and who wants to read this on a magic forum about Restaurant Magic anyway? It should be moved to Food for Thought and locked.
Message: Posted by: KirkG (Apr 2, 2010 02:40PM)
I see no problem moving it, but why lock it? There is good info here and anyone who is interested can do the follow up on the points raised and decide if they have merit or not.
Message: Posted by: gaddy (Apr 2, 2010 03:39PM)
[quote]
On 2010-04-02 15:40, KirkG wrote:
I see no problem moving it, but why lock it? There is good info here and anyone who is interested can do the follow up on the points raised and decide if they have merit or not.
[/quote]
:spam:
There is no good information here. These noobs don't even know the proper caliber ammo to stop a birthday clown holding a coloring book and an 8 year old as a shield.

We're all just trolls here, now.
:spam:
Message: Posted by: Donnie Buckley (Apr 2, 2010 04:03PM)
Ad nauseum...

What you call good info here is nothing more than sensational opinion and if anyone wants to follow up on, then they can do it and post in on some other forum devoted to that topic.

None of this is even relavant to a good bullet catch!

And in most states it's a moot issue anyway because you can't carry your firearm into an establishment that has a Licensed D Liquor Permit where people are consuming liquor, or in ALL the private building that with posted firearms restrictions (that's like ALL of them around here) or in any of the other Restricted Zones, so you have to leave it in the car anyway while you are being jumped in the parking lot for your cash. I guess you're just gonna have to surrender the cash and you're not gonna get to shoot a guy that day cowboy.

Look, I own guns, I shoot guns, I've been raised with firearms my whole life and I think this is a pointless arguement IN THIS FORUM.
Message: Posted by: KirkG (Apr 2, 2010 04:38PM)
I think it is a pointless argument in any forum. Constitutional right and all that. However, I think most of us on this forum agree that there is rarely any need to carry on our gigs.
Message: Posted by: MarvinWang (Apr 7, 2010 02:44AM)
That's a very interesting story that you shared....maybe I'll hire a body guard to table topping with me.
Message: Posted by: Jon Hackett (Apr 7, 2010 04:29AM)
Quote:

On 2010-04-01 03:44, Jon Hackett wrote:

'We should all feel perfectly comfortable wearing our best jewels and clothes and fancy cars visiting any neighborhood. However, it is FACT that the neighborhood where all citizens are allowed to carry guns, are the ones with the lower violent crime rate. So not allowing guns doesn't seem to be working. Just another fact.'

Kirk my man, these are not facts, in order to have a fact you need three things, something measurable, something to compare it to, and a control.

Nice to speak to y'all!

Jon Hackett


Jon, actually it is FACT.

States that approve right to carry experience a significant decline in violent crime rates after the right to carry laws take effect. According to FBI crime statistics states implementing right to carry experience:
An 8 percent drop in murder rates
A 7 percent drop in aggravated assaults
A 5 percent drop in rapes
A 4.9 percent drop in all violent crime
A 2.2 percent decline in robberies.


In the U.S. anyway

Mario my man! These are not facts, they are established statistics.

And we can all paint any picture we want using statistics.

--

"So now all "US of A" people are stupid?

that's what your quote says... If it wasn't for us the world would have been taken over (including the UK) by the Germans.. All we asked for was a little soil to bury our dead and no we are called stupid?

How are the Muslim extremist treating you guys in the UK with all your gun protection?... Thought so.."

Not all Americans! Only the ones that don’t agree with me of coarse! Nonetheless, I stand by my statement.

And if it wasn't for you the world would have been taken over by Germans? You know someone is in a strong position when they have to rely on histories that didn't involve them to make a point. If it wasn't for England, USA wouldn't exist! Sillyness eh?!

Anyone seen youtube?

Jon Hackett
Message: Posted by: warren (Apr 7, 2010 05:02AM)
As a black belt in origarmi I don't have to worry about personal protection :)
Message: Posted by: spcarlson (May 6, 2010 10:17AM)
[quote]
On 2010-02-24 10:40, derrick wrote:
Last night I had a new and disturbing experience. I finished up my restaurant gig, cut the line off, working about 30 minutes longer than I was being paid for and then put my things away. One of the parents pulled me aside to let me know there was a mad and intimidating looking man/father (bald, tattoos, lots of ink) that was angry I had cut the line off and that his child didn't get a balloon. When making balloons, one has to cut the line somewhere. He wasn't even at the cut off mark. He didn't complain to me or to management, but was mad enough to make other patrons uneasy. I informed our security about him and made my way out the door. I stopped at Best Buy on the way home and that's when I realized the guy had followed me there. I was looking at noise cancelling headphones when he slowly walked past without a word and just a threatening glare to let me know he was there. I informed security, went to my car and home. He didn't follow me home, and my wife is a police detective so I'm not too concerned about my personal protection at home, but it wouldn't be hard, with the internet today, to find out what my personal address is. So according to just how disturbed this guy is, in more ways than one, I a little concerned. Others had this problem?
[/quote]

I can’t believe you didn’t just make the youngster a balloon animal you had already stayed 30 minutes overtime what’s another 2-3 minutes? Apologize to the dad and make the kid 2 balloon animals; teach the child a little magic trick to make him feel extra special you would have disarmed the situation and won the dad over! But now as a result of this incident you are considering packing a weapon, what will you do then next time shoot the guy?

Even scarier than the angry, nasty people out there is the thought of how many untrained people there are out there carrying guns.

I am a 5th degree black belt, trained in a number of martial arts, I ran my own school and taught martial arts and self defense for many years and I would never ever recommend anyone carry a gun or a knife! More likely than not the weapon will be used on you rather than on your ”attacker”.

I taught my students to use their mind and their mouth to get out of situations and we being magical performers we should be experts at this. Self-defense with hands and feet is the absolute last resort guns and knives are just ridiculous.

The best advise I can tell you is enroll in a basic self-defense class one that teaches street defense skills and part of this training will also heighten your observation skills and teach you to be more observant and aware. Again, the best defense is never having to use one, be keen enough to see potential problems before they arise or, in those rare cases where they do, be prepared to disarm the situation with clear thinking and the use of communication.
Message: Posted by: gaddy (May 6, 2010 03:10PM)
I think carrying a gun to one's gigs is a sound idea. You never know what sort of situation you'll run into and it's fnord best to be prepared for all situations. In an ideal situation you'll be able to notify the police if an altercation begins, [i]but you never know![/i]

A small concealable handgun fits snugly against the small of one's back and won't interfere with any sleight of hand or other gimmicks except possibly a cigarette/handkerchief pull.

You might have to make a small adjustment or two if you use a wireless microphone and clip your transmitter to your belt on the back, though.

Hope this helps!
Message: Posted by: dsalley13 (May 6, 2010 03:38PM)
Where I do my volunteer work and most of my Magic, you don't need a gun, but a surgical gown is a safe-bet sometimes, especially if the spec. is a first-timer for chemo-therapy. Being the inadvertent target of projectile vomiting is bad for your clothes, skin, and props. My pay is in the form of smiles (if I do a good job). Kids in a pediatric cancer care ward can give you smiles worth more than gold and diamonds.



dsalley13
Message: Posted by: patrick flanagan (May 7, 2010 10:45AM)
[quote]
On 2010-05-06 11:17, spcarlson wrote:

I can’t believe you didn’t just make the youngster a balloon animal you had already stayed 30 minutes overtime what’s another 2-3 minutes? Apologize to the dad and make the kid 2 balloon animals; teach the child a little magic trick to make him feel extra special you would have disarmed the situation and won the dad over! [/quote]

What's another 2-3 minutes? Well, it's only 2-3 minutes...which turns into 15 minutes...which turns into 30 minutes.... Why do you think he was there an extra 30 minutes already? I'm not sure what kind of shows you do, but do you make balloons? Have you worked balloon lines? Because if the answer is no, then you should have just made your post about the martial arts point. Anyone who has ever done balloons or worked balloon lines knows that it doesn't matter how long you stay...someone is gonna be upset at the end. He could have stayed there an EXTRA fours hours, and, still, someone would have been bothered that he didn't stay an extra 2-3 minutes to replace the 5th balloon little Joey broke or to make "just one more" because Jill just showed up. And then you suggest staying even longer to teach the kid a magic trick? Sheesh, why don't I just go home with them? I'll cut the grass and wash the dad's car so I could get him on my good side...lol.
At some point, there just has to be a "last one".
patrick
Message: Posted by: derrick (May 7, 2010 01:50PM)
THANK YOU with all my heart Patrick. I just couldn't go over this point again. I'm off at 7:30 p.m. and this is a busy restaurant that closes at 11:30 p.m. If I kept staying to do one more balloon then that's when I would leave.

I think I mentioned that my wife is a detective. She also teaches self defense for the department so I hear the guy loud and clear about being aware of your surroundings and attentive to the people and events going on around you.

She's offered to attack me in the style of Kato on the Pink Panther each night when I get home but I've begged her not to :) OK not really, but it would be funny.
Message: Posted by: MagicbyCarlo (May 7, 2010 06:13PM)
I know Kung-fu and several other Chinese phrases.
I love martial artists who think that it's going to be like a Steven Seagal movie when the poop hits the fan. (Even Steven Seagal carries a gun on patrol) It tickles me inside. Funniest thing I ever saw was an "experienced" multi degree black belt get dropped like a bag of garbage by one punch from some street fighter. Guess he had never experienced someone hit him that hard. Another showed up as a victim after he got shot in gluteus maximus throwing a kick. Both true stories. Oh well, you know what they say about advice and opinions. It's best to avoid conflict, but if you can't...
Message: Posted by: spcarlson (May 7, 2010 08:25PM)
Derrick:
We are in a customer service oriented business and when we have one extremely unhappy customer, what do we do? You obviously do care about customer relations or you wouldn’t have been there and extra 30 minutes. That’s why I was surprised you didn’t follow through with that particularly unique customer.


Basic animal instinct to a threatening situation is fight of flight. Those two work but we human beings have more options available to us than that. Often times the “fight” instinct will lead some to carry a gun and without very intensive hand gun training and training under stressful situations this option can prove disastrous.

________________________


Patrick Flanagan:
Yes, I have made balloon animals along with doing my magic so I’m very much aware of lines, crowds and demands. How exactly do you handle a customer who is mad and angry with you at the establishment you’re working at? Is that the guy you chose to cut off?

________________________


MagicbyCarlo:
Steven Seagal is a martial artist who is an actor; he plays a fictitious character for entertainment. However, before his acting career he was a martial arts instructor and I’m quite certain he gave the same advice to his students; violence is a last resort. As far as your other comments I would suggest you go back and re-read my post.
Message: Posted by: derrick (May 7, 2010 09:51PM)
I didn't do one more because I cut the line off at 7:30 p.m. It took me an extra 30 minutes to finish off the remaining line that was there at that time. If I did one more.....please refer to Patrick's post above.
Message: Posted by: mota (May 7, 2010 10:15PM)
SP...you are a good man but don't seem to understand the problems associated with cutting off a balloon line. It is "one more forever". While not usually that extreme many parents aren't that far off from that threatening fellow.

I suppose you could carry a gun but a better thing would be Mark Byrne. I don't mean you carry Mark Byrne (though a special pouch might fit him). Rather I mean find out how he handles line work...he has a very nice method so you don't run in to drooling rabid parent syndrome when it comes time to leave.
Message: Posted by: Nash (May 8, 2010 06:31PM)
Man y'all ain't seen nuth'in

My first restaurant was in a ghetto part of town, got a small amount of gang members and drug dealers there regularly. They tip me well and we were on good terms.

Until one day, I got out of the restaurant parking lot, saw someone from a rival gang and I was literally 2 feet away from him ... I saw my regulars came STORMING OUT FROM AROUND THE CORNER and started SHOOTING AT the rival gang member's GENERAL DIRECTION. I WAS TWO FEET AWAY FROM HIM. We both ran back into the restaurant, the guy from the other gang disappeared and ran elsewhere .

Needless to say my regular gangster folks were banned from the restaurant after that night, and I no longer work there.
Message: Posted by: MagicbyCarlo (May 9, 2010 11:21AM)
Spcarlson, my comment wasn't directed at you.

I said "I love martial artists who..." I didn't assume you fit that profile, your post mentioning MA did remind me of the two who did however.

The problem with MA for some as is the problem with weapons for some is it gives them an inflated belief in their skills and abilities. The two examples were victims of their own over confidence. In the military and police you are trained to use all of your tools and not to assume one is the answer for all situations. I agree with much of your points in theory, but to say not to carry a gun or knife as a rule isn't really taking into consideration all factors and realities. Your theory assumes that you will be dealing with rational, unarmed, or untrained beings who deep down don't really want to do you harm or that you won't deal with overwhelming numbers. I think this conversation has overflowed it's cup to a great degree, but as was stated the individual in question actually followed derrick from the gig to another location, not what I would consider a rational or reasonable response to my kid not getting a balloon animal. What type of thinking motivates that? I just think it's naive to assume that we can fend off all issues with our "words" or always count on our physical skills to protect us; I'm a little more of a believer in an "all of the above" approach, but that's what I'm comfortable with and I certainly don't recommend it for everyone.

Not everyone looks like a human weapon either ;)
Message: Posted by: donrodrigo (May 11, 2010 05:13AM)
Ok so let's stop with the dragon bit and think performance. I like to share just one of my experiences,please permit me:
(the MOB)
First of all I try not make it a habit to play in bad places. Not to say however, that there are bad people there thing as such (could) take place even in the finest situations. Here is an example: I was seen and called upon by a gentelman from the audience who at the time saw an outside show of mine at a 5 star hotel park while in Italy, Naples no less. This hotel organizes big outside and inside show events of various types. I have had many return gigs there. Anyway this person wanted to organize and book my act as well as others. Ok cool so far, even the dough.
Day of the show we had prepared ourselves in the dressing rooms while the hands prepared the equipment. Show time. Out of this world the audience was receptive to say the least like honey cant say more other than the last number just wasn't working well being electric would not function. Ok so,we closed big anyway, all were happy and content. Went to dressroom to clean up,was first outside room to talk to people who wanted to meet us,here comes the GENTELMAN who I thought was to greet me with a shake of hands,he starts to get loud and tells me a few bad ones in Italian,since he thought the last number went bad.I tried to calm him down but he continued, at this point comes my ladyfriend who heard him in the corridor,and politely asked wht happened,he sstarts to mouth her bad and the point in time I raise my voice here comes 2 (two) gorrillas dressed in black with black shades, one to his left and the other to his right. The director came grabed me by my arm pulls me away to the elevator tells me to go and that the owner will take care of it. Was told by the directo it was the mob,This guy was
one of their important person.
Message: Posted by: patrick flanagan (May 11, 2010 03:12PM)
[quote]
On 2010-05-07 21:25, spcarlson wrote:

Patrick Flanagan:
Yes, I have made balloon animals along with doing my magic so I’m very much aware of lines, crowds and demands. How exactly do you handle a customer who is mad and angry with you at the establishment you’re working at? Is that the guy you chose to cut off?

[/quote]

Sp,
Let me start by saying, if I'm working a balloon line, I know, before I blow up the first balloon, that I'll be there after my scheduled end time (unless I have another show that I have to get to immediately after). That is just the nature of the beast. So, when I cannot stay or when I determine I've stayed there long enough, I hand the last person in line a note that says, in bold letters, "this is the last person. I'm sorry I'm unable to stay longer."
If someone still asks for another balloon after that, I say that I wish I could but I really have to leave as I have another engagement that I have to be at.

Let me ask you a question. How long are you willing to stay?...30 minutes?...1 hour? At what point do you say that's enough? And what do you tell the person who comes up to you and asks for one more? What do you do, if you've already worked past your scheduled time and are ready to leave, and then a youth baseball/softball team arrives and they ask for balloons? Do you stay and make 15 more balloons so noone will be angry?
Message: Posted by: KirkG (May 14, 2010 11:48AM)
[quote]
On 2010-05-06 11:17, spcarlson wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-02-24 10:40, derrick wrote:
Clip
[/quote]

Even scarier than the angry, nasty people out there is the thought of how many untrained people there are out there carrying guns. [/quote]

What is even more scary is the amount of angry nasty people out there at all, carrying knives guns and clubs and just their fists, but lots of them in groups/gangs. It is not possible to diffuse every situation nor to depend on the police to protect you. Sometimes these people just walk in and shoot you in your restaurant booth, like they did to those police in So Cal.

I encourage all people to get training in a variety of forms of self defense and that includes guns.

[quote]
On 2010-05-06 11:17, spcarlson wrote:I am a 5th degree black belt, trained in a number of martial arts, I ran my own school and taught martial arts and self defense for many years and I would never ever recommend anyone carry a gun or a knife! More likely than not the weapon will be used on you rather than on your ”attacker”. [/quote]

With all due respect, bully for you! Not everyone has invested the time to develop those skills or to maintain the conditioning and health to perform them correctly. Also, if your assailant had a knife of a gun, you would be better served having your own gun to dissuade him from continuing.

As to the point of it ( a gun) being taken away and used on you, BS! Statistics don't bear this out. That is just the rhetoric spouted by the anti-gunners. Again the facts are out there, they just choose not to use them.

[quote]
On 2010-05-06 11:17, spcarlson wrote:I taught my students to use their mind and their mouth to get out of situations and we being magical performers we should be experts at this. Self-defense with hands and feet is the absolute last resort guns and knives are just ridiculous. [/quote]

While in a majority of cases a smooth mouth will help, in some it won't and that is when you need to be prepared to take the appropriate action.

[quote]
On 2010-05-06 11:17, spcarlson wrote:The best advise I can tell you is enroll in a basic self-defense class one that teaches street defense skills and part of this training will also heighten your observation skills and teach you to be more observant and aware. Again, the best defense is never having to use one, be keen enough to see potential problems before they arise or, in those rare cases where they do, be prepared to disarm the situation with clear thinking and the use of communication.[/quote]

I totally agree that observational skills and common sense will handle most situations and is the preferred route.

I think a basic self defense class, as far as moves goes, it worthless and only fosters a false sense of security.

My daughter took a special class that meet for weeks given by police officers that included the guy in the padded suit and she thought she was "hot stuff" by the pounding she gave him. It wasn't until I let her hit me full force without padding that a dose of reality crept in.

No one should pull a gun unless they are mentally and physically prepared to use it to kill their opponent. There is no "woundies" in street fighting. So the gun shouldn't "show up" until the situation DEMANDS it. Then it should be used effectively.
Message: Posted by: Bad to the Balloon (May 14, 2010 01:13PM)
[quote]
On 2010-05-07 23:15, mota wrote:
SP...you are a good man but don't seem to understand the problems associated with cutting off a balloon line. It is "one more forever". While not usually that extreme many parents aren't that far off from that threatening fellow.

I suppose you could carry a gun but a better thing would be Mark Byrne. I don't mean you carry Mark Byrne (though a special pouch might fit him). Rather I mean find out how he handles line work...he has a very nice method so you don't run in to drooling rabid parent syndrome when it comes time to leave.
[/quote]

How did I get pulled in???

It's alright. Lines, Lines, lines.... difference between a magician and a balloon guy at a party ... nobody begs the magician for one more trick!!!

For those that don't venture over to balloons 101 ... I use a deli ticket machine to cut the line. I keep and eye on how many tickets are given out and how much time I have. Since I do 20 -25 balloon hats per hour. I pull the ticket machine when the my time is left is equal to amount of tickets out PLUS 10%.

My sign says on ones side says:

Please take only one ticket if you want a Balloon Hat
Listen for your number
Be fair... Share
http://www.BalloonGuy.Net
(727) 742-6713

When the deli machine is removed. Sign is reversed and says:

WE ARE DONE
no begging, whining, Threatening, Bribing, Crying, Moaning, Harassing or Canoodling.
Sorry See you at our next event.
WWW BalloonGuy.Net
(727) 742-6713
Lack of planning on your part,
does not constitute an emergency on ours!

This does several things.

• Establishes parameters
• RULES
• We didn't run out of balloons (sign of poor planning) we ran out of ticket or all the tickets were already given out.
• I didn't say it ... read the sign. People think they can reason with YOU. A sign is respected!
• Many hang for a minute, hear the numbers being called and then as the crowd, where to get a ticket. They will say all gone.

In a restaurant it is a bit different. When I hit my time I spent the next 5-10 minutes Clearing the tables. As I walk up to the table I have a 3 second dog made and ready.... as I had it out I say:

" Sorry guys my time is done today, and I have to be some were else. BUT I wanted everyone to get something ... so here you go.... I am here from _____ to _____ come on in earlier and I will make you anything you want!"

I start at the back of the restaurant clearing table one by one.

Is it my best work?? No but there is a time when you are no long making a profit and your just a "nice Guy".... I would rather make money.

BTW Gun control is the ability to annihilate your target.... something 7 years in the Security Police field taught me. I know how to fire almost any kind of weapon. Currently I don't carry, BUT have been considering it since I do carry what some people consider large sums of cash.

And Yes there is a direct correlation between the crime rate and gun ownership. Tell me would you rather live in Washington DC or Paris, Texas??

A well armed society is a polite society!!!
Message: Posted by: Natanel (May 17, 2010 04:23PM)
I don't want to read this whole thread, but someone has already made condom jokes right?
Message: Posted by: derrick (May 18, 2010 11:39PM)
Yes, I'm pretty sure they were about to graduate from Jr. High.
Message: Posted by: Woland (May 19, 2010 10:07AM)
As a recent arrival at the Café, I have been learning a great deal just by reading through many of the informative discussions.

This discussion has covered its ground fairly well.

There are just two additional observations which I hope I will be forgiven for adding to this thread.

First of all, the right to bear arms is not granted to American citizens by our Constitution. The Constitution did not create any rights, and does not grant any rights.

The purpose of the Constitution is not to grant rights, but to compel the government to respect the rights that the people have. The Constitution, in the Second Amendment, restricts the Government from infringing the right of self-defense, with which --according to the Laws of the United States-- we were endowed by our Creator. "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these rights are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness . . ." etc. (For the benefit of those unfamiliar with it, that's from the Declaration of Independence, but it was explicitly incorporated into the Laws of the United States by an Act of Congress.)

Now I do recognize a serious problem with the Second Amendment . . . it should have been first.

The other observation I would offer is that anyone who reads Sherlock Holmes will realize that in the Victorian and Edwardian eras, any Englishman who so desired could carry a revolver with no questions asked. One of the first things Dr Watson does when going on an investigation with Holmes is to put his revolver in his pocket. From memoirs and histories of the period, revolvers were carried by doctors, lawyers, shopkeepers, even ministers of the Church. Gun crime was unknown, and the police did not need to be armed. When necessary, a policeman could borrow a revolver from someone in the crowd.

As laws restricting gun ownership became progressively more severe over the 20th century, gun crime in Britain soared. This sad history has been well documented by Janet Malcolm. And now there are British police units that are routinely armed with submachine guns. No mystery there; if a criminal knows that his victims are guaranteed to be unarmed, it makes his use of gun much more overpowering, than if he suspects one of his victims might be armed.

The places in the United States with the highest rates of violent crime are those where carrying and even owning firearms is most restricted.

A proper reverence for the gift of human life requires that it be defended, and not thrown away to the first evil thug who comes along. Being capable of defending one's life, possessing the necessary equipment and training, is a civic responsibility.
Message: Posted by: Pakar Ilusi (Jun 3, 2010 01:13AM)
As just happened in Britain.

Really sad, RIP to the victims.

:cry:
Message: Posted by: Woland (Jun 3, 2010 05:03AM)
Yes, Pakar Ilusi, another tragedy that would have been unthinkable in an era when decent people were usually armed. May the victims rest in peace, and may their families and loved ones find peace and consolation . . . . Mass shootings like this --including the mass shooting terror attack on an American military base-- invariably occur in "gun free zones."
Message: Posted by: Jon Hackett (Jun 3, 2010 05:48AM)
Im sorry Woland, but there is no question the statistics say you are very wrong, mass shootings happen in a fair number of places unfortunately, there is no question however, they are most prevalent in the USA, and certainly not in gun free zones.

Of coarse statistics are open to interpretation, indeed, any stat can be interpreted to mean almost anything as it in itself has no inherent meaning.

Jon Hackett
Message: Posted by: Tim Dowd (Jun 3, 2010 06:05AM)
Another link I'm afraid... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
Message: Posted by: Woland (Jun 3, 2010 07:22AM)
Dear Jon Hackett,

I don't wish to prolong unnecessarily a discussion at cross-purposes in which the interlocutors are not going to agree on either the basics or the details, but if you look at any list of mass shootings in the United States, you will note that they have invariably occurred in schools, on college campuses, and other controlled areas which prohibit the law-abiding citizens from going about armed. President Clinton ordered that military bases become gun free zones, and the Fort Hood terror attack took place when a armed assailant entered a gun free zone where he could expect only unarmed resistance. Mass shootings do not occur even in the United States in places where the perpetrator has a reasonable expectation of encountering armed opponents rather than helpless victims.

Dear Tim Dowd,

National statistics are certainly worth pondering, but involve many, many uncorrected variables.
Message: Posted by: Jumbopenny (Jun 3, 2010 10:28PM)
Since I haven't read every single post in this thread I hope I'm not repeating anyone's views.

This is not the answer to every confrontation, but I believe this may be a good option for this one. I've studied self defense all my life. Briefly in several McDojos until I realized the reality of it all. Then I started searching for the real techniques and principles that work in real life. I just didn't want to stand there for 20 years doing reverse punches while some glorified grandmaster was pick pocketing me of my hard earned cash.

Ok, to the point. I've learned that in real life (I'm not talking MMA here) psychology and strategy is of the utmost importance. Bottom line; the father is a crazed psycho, but he's only ****ed because a balloon for Christ's sake. He's not trying to mug or harm you. He needs to vent his anger. You need to deflate his balloon. Approach him in the store and say, "Are you really following me because of a balloon animal? Listen, I have to stop the line somewhere or I'd be there all night. If it means that much to you I'll make one for you right now." If you didn't have balloons on you then just do a magic trick and say you'll make 2 for them the next time they're there. This guy has the road rage mentality. Don't buy into that. Situations like this requires that you be the bigger, better, smarter person. Pick your fights wisely as you can't win them all.

Case in point. Many years ago I was driving down a 2 lane road and was about to make a left turn off onto another road. Coming down the street from the other direction was a speeding Corvette going much too fast for this little road. In a split second I decided I could make the turn in time. As I hit the gas and turned another car pulled out from the street I was turning onto in a way that impeded me. I had to hit the brakes and clear that car slowly. Mr. hotshot Corvette had to decelerate slightly so he wouldn't hit me as he was speeding. He proceeds to turn and start tailgaiting me and driving irrationally. I finally just stop in the middle of the road. He stops behind me, gets out, and stomps over to my driver side window. I lower my window to talk to him. He's red in the face, and steam is coming out of his ears. He starts screaming, "Don't you ever cut me off, etc, etc." The minute he stops I say, "ok." He was expecting some kind of fight. I had no reason to, and was in no way angry. His speeding caused the whole incident. He stopped point blank, had no idea of what to say next. You could literally see him deflate. With a blank look on his face and not knowing what else to say he turned around and left. One word on my part resolved the whole issue. In these situations as in all of life it's about the feelings. It's ALWAYS about the feelings.

With that in mind, lets end with a happy one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_vvI26NnwE
Message: Posted by: Pakar Ilusi (Jun 4, 2010 09:08AM)
Well, he did go home ok...

So we did end with a happy one. :)
Message: Posted by: Woland (Jun 4, 2010 02:03PM)
Statistics within one country can be used to show a secular trend, avoiding comparisons from country to country that involve many uncorrectable variables.

According to statistics maintained by the FBI, since 2005, the number of firearms purchased by private citizens in the US has increased by double digits every year. In 2009 alone, it is estimated that private citizens in the US bought at least 12 billion rounds of ammunition.

During the same time period, according to FBI crime statistics, incidents of murder, rape, robbery, and aggravated assault [url=http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/prelimsem2009/table_3.html]all significantly declined.[/url]

More guns = less crime, when law-abiding citizens can have them.

But that population-based observation does not necessarily mean that any particular individual should go armed. Beware of the probabilistic fallacy, search your conscience, know your own abilities, and govern yourself accordingly.
Message: Posted by: J.G. the magnificent (Jun 8, 2010 09:36PM)
[quote]
On 2010-06-04 15:03, Woland wrote:
Statistics within one country can be used to show a secular trend, avoiding comparisons from country to country that involve many uncorrectable variables.

According to statistics maintained by the FBI, since 2005, the number of firearms purchased by private citizens in the US has increased by double digits every year. In 2009 alone, it is estimated that private citizens in the US bought at least 12 billion rounds of ammunition.

During the same time period, according to FBI crime statistics, incidents of murder, rape, robbery, and aggravated assault [url=http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/prelimsem2009/table_3.html]all significantly declined.[/url]

More guns = less crime, when law-abiding citizens can have them.

But that population-based observation does not necessarily mean that any particular individual should go armed. Beware of the probabilistic fallacy, search your conscience, know your own abilities, and govern yourself accordingly.
[/quote]
I couldn't agree more back when everyone carried something and you had a right to stick up for yourself their was less crime. Now people get offended easy and little can get you hurt if not killed and it is the innocent that don't' have self defense. "Their is a old country song about it my freind let me hear". The crimminals always find a way to have one even if they are illegal. Out lawing them only makes things worse. Kind of like the prohibition. They legalized it because outlawing alchohol only caused more problems. They are slowly becoming more linient on pot and such for the same reason.
Message: Posted by: J.G. the magnificent (Jun 8, 2010 10:02PM)
As someone suggested in one of my discussions carry a 44 magnum bang-stick wand. Or like I thought to do a fire wallet in their face as it is handed over. Though I would need to buy one so think to use a modified cigarette lighter. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sYEi3L-p-U though it is cheap a bit more money will buy me a mace being much more effective than a simple stunner to distract them before I beat them and run. So I am going to buy one of those to use instead maybe a pen mace one day.
As far as other methods go though most distracting them and catching them off guard so I can run. I have a dummy wallet with a little money in it and two cards glued together for throwing after I grab it with money shaking acting scared. As I drop the money they go for it and I throw a card into the back of their neck. Got that from CARDS AS WEAPONS. Another method is a thunder snap inside wallet I can throw that sounds like a gunshot hopefully scaring the mugger off. Also if the mugger doesn’t run it is sure to get attention from people for help if they don't go running. Or I can just simply hand them the dummy and slice them with a razor blade attached to a small board slab glued to one side hidden underneath. As they grab I pull out to the side. They scream in pain bleeding and I run for it. This I don't have in pocket sitting down and place in pocket with blade up. If I get pick pocketed the guy gets sliced and alerts me. Though I half to be careful removing it with fingers moving around its edge covering it so as not to get it caught and cutting my pocket up.
Message: Posted by: J.G. the magnificent (Jun 8, 2010 10:21PM)
There are allot of styles out their though when it comes down to it they are moves for moves. The average person just uses instinctive plain punches and choke holds. Martial arts could be useful to an extent against chokes and blocking punches. Though really you aren't up against an expert fighter usually depending on your area. In my opinion it is really about surprise attack and practical tools. A pen to jab with, a key to slash with, wallet chain to whack with. What I mentioned above, I have even researched the possibility of a taser wallet. The post was about defense in general though and not necessarily muggings so enough of the wallet stuff. I would just leave it at practical tools. You could beat them with your table or cups. http://budk.com/Self-Defense/Firefly-950K-Stun-Gun Tase them with a deck of cards. Though sometimes a simple fist in just the right spot will do especially if you panic too much to think about tactics. I hear right along the jaw even with a weak punch can render someone unconscious if in the right spot. The nose smashed with a palm strike is supposed to gush blood and pain. Even grab the throat just right near the Adams apple as you use your other arm to punch them as my friend suggested. He is teaching me. He lives in a bit of a crime area and has been held up a couple times.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Jun 9, 2010 02:06PM)
[quote]
On 2010-03-03 11:14, tabman wrote:
When I was on the road with Elvis old backup singers, [i]Memphis[/i], one of the singers had a cool little black leather wallet with a built in 25 cal pistola with a trigger finger hole in it. He would carry his cash in his front pocket and the wallet-pistol in his back, you get the picture.

Our tour bus was like an armed camp but we werent overt about it, just Caréful. It was in the early 80s. Also, the high sheriff of Davidson Co TN (Nashville) Fate Saunders was in the habit of deputizing all the entertainers who did benefits for him and we all had deputy badges and ID too. Sheriff Fate later went to prison for corruption but he was always decent to the entertainment community.

Get a Derringer. ;)
[/quote]

These wallets are now illegal.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Jun 9, 2010 02:43PM)
[quote]
On 2010-06-03 07:05, Tim Dowd wrote:
Another link I'm afraid... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
[/quote]

Wikipedia is possibly the least accurate source of information on the internet. Remember it is written by its subscribers, most of which have no credentials of any kind. In this case, much of the data is over 15 years old. Comparing the US death rate by firearms in 2004 with the death rate in Mexico in 1993, for example, is ludicrous.

Firearms infractions and violent crimes involving firearms should be viewed by State, when quoting US crime rates. I live in Texas. We experienced a verifiably significant drop in violent crime involving firearms the year after concealed carry first went in, and in at least the two years following it. Not all states in the US have concealed carry laws. In many of the states, concealed carry is not permitted, nor is open carry.

In Texas, were first allowed to obtain permits to carry concealed in 1999, which is six years after the first statistics in the Wikipedia article. I obtained my concealed carry permit shortly after that, not to carry weapons of any kind to magic shows or other similar performances, but because I was involved in Western Theatrical work, which required that I use actual firearms and not cap pistols. At the time, Texas law stated that if I had firearms in my vehicle, I was required to go directly to the place they were being used (firing range, repair facility or performance) without making any stops (such as gasoline, lunch, picking up other members of the troupe). The concealed handgun license eliminated that problem.

In order to obtain said license, I had to undergo a thorough background check by both the Texas Department of Public Safety and the Federal Bureau of Investigation. I had to take an eight hour course that covered gun laws, anger management and the simple logic of carrying a pistol or revolver. I had to pass a written examination that covered the material quite exhaustively, and I also had to qualify on the shooting range.

The main things I took away from that class was that:
1) Drawing a pistol is the second to last resort.
2) Shooting someone is the very last resort.
3) There is no such thing as an "OOPS" or an "Oh, S**T!" when a bullet you fire hits someone it wasn't intended for.
4) Someone yelling an obscenity at you is not a reason to shoot them.
5) It's better to duck for cover than to shoot back.
6) Don't assume that because someone has tied a woman to a tree and is apparently slapping her that he is doing it against her will. They may be enjoying it. Call the police instead.
7) Having a concealed handgun license does not make you James Bond.
8) If you think you have had a bad day, wait until you shoot someone. Then you will have a really bad day that will stay with you for the rest of your life.
9) Don't shoot anyone, unless your life or the life of one of your family is clearly in danger. Then call your lawyer and 911 in that order.
10) On second thought. Don't shoot anyone, if there is any way to avoid it.
11) It's cheaper to replace your car and its contents than it is to pay a defense attorney.

So, what good is a concealed handgun license? Well, let's see. Monday when I went to Travelex to get a draught on a London bank, I needed two pieces of identification. When I purchase a handgun or a rifle, I don't have to go through a background check. My CHL provides that check in advance.

And the more people who have CHL's, the more likely a violent person is to wonder whether YOU are the fellow who is packing heat.

BTW, I never carry. I don't need to.

However, I do have a walking stick. At my age, it is a necessity. And I can do almost all the moves I learned while taking bayonet training in the Army with a walking stick.

It's called "Cane Fu."
Message: Posted by: tabman (Jun 9, 2010 03:46PM)
[quote]
On 2010-06-09 15:43, Bill Palmer wrote:.....However, I do have a walking stick. At my age, it is a necessity. And I can do almost all the moves I learned while taking bayonet training in the Army with a walking stick.

It's called "Cane Fu."
[/quote]

All my life Ive always heard that it's pretty stupid to pick a fight with an old man with a big stick.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Jun 9, 2010 03:57PM)
Sometimes a walking stick and an air of confidence is all it takes. Other times, a large, dense object makes an excellent shield.
Message: Posted by: KirkG (Jun 9, 2010 07:34PM)
Give everyone guns. Let God sort them out. :)
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Jun 9, 2010 10:42PM)
Make 'em, pay for the guns first.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Jun 10, 2010 09:33AM)
My real entry into the world of Show Biz was playing music in places that made the redneck bar in the Blues Brothers look like a palace. I had more b***s than brains back then. I never packed heat. I stopped a large number of fights by reasoning with drunks, though.

Once in a while there was a drunk who was completely impossible to convince of his stupidity.

I made it a point to become well acquainted with the local LEO's. There were lots of off-duty police officers and constables who would come by to watch our show. They saved our bacon on more than one occasion.

The funny thing was that some of the "perps" were people I had gone to high school with, but did not recognize me, because I had grown a beard. One was a B-team track "star" who had an ego the size of the King ranch. I watched him come to bail out a fellow who got arrested on a DUI charge. The little town we were playing in was right next to Houston, so when the call went out to stop the car, I was in the police station to watch him being brought in. A fellow with him said, "I DEMAND a blood test."

The admitting officer said, "I can't give him one. We don't have a doctor on duty."

"I'm going to come back with a lawyer."

"Bring two."

It never hurts to have John Law on your side.

Re: Balloon lines.

I was working a show in a mall where one of our local clown/magicians/balloon guys was giving balloon animals out to all the kids. He worked an extra hour. The hours were clearly posted next to his stand.

He finally cut the line off.

"That SUMBICH didn't give my kid no B'LOON!" was the cry that echoed down the mall several times, just in case someone in Oklahoma didn't hear it the first time.

You can't please everybody. You surely can't please drunks.
Message: Posted by: tabman (Jun 10, 2010 10:08AM)
Was that bar in Humble?? I think I played there.
Message: Posted by: Woland (Jun 11, 2010 04:13PM)
Sounds like a jumpin' joint . . .

Those who are interested in national differences in mass murder shootings might be surprised at a recent list of such events compiled by John R. Lott (he has recently published a 3rd revised edition of his book on guns and crime). The 3-worst K-12 school shootings (in terms of number murdered) occurred in Germany and Scotland; the Columbine shooting was the 4th worst. All of those 4 shootings occurred in gun-free zones, where guns in the hands of civilians are illegal.

Since 2001, there have been at least 18 mass shooting incidents in Western Europe, every one of them occurring in places where no civilian is permitted to carry a firearm.
Message: Posted by: J.G. the magnificent (Jun 20, 2010 08:44PM)
Use a mini baseball bat as a wand. A bit intimidating and a subtle warning. Even carry those fireworks you throw on the ground that explode. Only the really load ones a bit bigger. Sounds like a gun shot if they don't see you throwing it. Got my freind with one and with him growing up in a bit of a dangerous area I about got hit.
Message: Posted by: Leland Stone (Jun 20, 2010 11:23PM)
[quote]
On 2010-02-25 08:48, BenSimon wrote:
*hesitatingly raises hand*

But after some people almost lnyching me for a handbag being stolen during my back room impromptu performance, I'm starting to think differently.
[/quote]

Thank you, BenSimon! That you are thinking differently shows a reasoned response rather than a brute Pavlovian reaction.

Our world is shared by violent, brutal persons who do evil merely for the enjoyment of inflicting harm on others. When confronted by such evildoers, responding with a cool head is commendable; responding with a cool head and superiour firepower is prudent. One would think your fellow Europeans would have learnt this lesson from Chamberlain's disastrous failure on the cusp of the Blitzkrieg.

Warm regards,
Leland Stone
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Jun 21, 2010 06:49AM)
Years ago, the martial arts style I was in required you be in possession of some form of self defense weapon at all times. My favorite was a hatpin. About 4" long with a round ball at the blunt end. You would run this inside your belt so that only the little ball was showing. Many advantages to this legal aid...
Message: Posted by: MagicbyCarlo (Jun 21, 2010 07:32PM)
[quote]
On 2010-06-09 15:43, Bill Palmer wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-06-03 07:05, Tim Dowd wrote:
Another link I'm afraid... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
[/quote]

Wikipedia is possibly the least accurate source of information on the internet. Remember it is written by its subscribers, most of which have no credentials of any kind. In this case, much of the data is over 15 years old. Comparing the US death rate by firearms in 2004 with the death rate in Mexico in 1993, for example, is ludicrous.

Firearms infractions and violent crimes involving firearms should be viewed by State, when quoting US crime rates. I live in Texas. We experienced a verifiably significant drop in violent crime involving firearms the year after concealed carry first went in, and in at least the two years following it. Not all states in the US have concealed carry laws. In many of the states, concealed carry is not permitted, nor is open carry.

In Texas, were first allowed to obtain permits to carry concealed in 1999, which is six years after the first statistics in the Wikipedia article. I obtained my concealed carry permit shortly after that, not to carry weapons of any kind to magic shows or other similar performances, but because I was involved in Western Theatrical work, which required that I use actual firearms and not cap pistols. At the time, Texas law stated that if I had firearms in my vehicle, I was required to go directly to the place they were being used (firing range, repair facility or performance) without making any stops (such as gasoline, lunch, picking up other members of the troupe). The concealed handgun license eliminated that problem.

In order to obtain said license, I had to undergo a thorough background check by both the Texas Department of Public Safety and the Federal Bureau of Investigation. I had to take an eight hour course that covered gun laws, anger management and the simple logic of carrying a pistol or revolver. I had to pass a written examination that covered the material quite exhaustively, and I also had to qualify on the shooting range.

The main things I took away from that class was that:
1) Drawing a pistol is the second to last resort.
2) Shooting someone is the very last resort.
3) There is no such thing as an "OOPS" or an "Oh, S**T!" when a bullet you fire hits someone it wasn't intended for.
4) Someone yelling an obscenity at you is not a reason to shoot them.
5) It's better to duck for cover than to shoot back.
6) Don't assume that because someone has tied a woman to a tree and is apparently slapping her that he is doing it against her will. They may be enjoying it. Call the police instead.
7) Having a concealed handgun license does not make you James Bond.
8) If you think you have had a bad day, wait until you shoot someone. Then you will have a really bad day that will stay with you for the rest of your life.
9) Don't shoot anyone, unless your life or the life of one of your family is clearly in danger. Then call your lawyer and 911 in that order.
10) On second thought. Don't shoot anyone, if there is any way to avoid it.
11) It's cheaper to replace your car and its contents than it is to pay a defense attorney.

So, what good is a concealed handgun license? Well, let's see. Monday when I went to Travelex to get a draught on a London bank, I needed two pieces of identification. When I purchase a handgun or a rifle, I don't have to go through a background check. My CHL provides that check in advance.

And the more people who have CHL's, the more likely a violent person is to wonder whether YOU are the fellow who is packing heat.

BTW, I never carry. I don't need to.

However, I do have a walking stick. At my age, it is a necessity. And I can do almost all the moves I learned while taking bayonet training in the Army with a walking stick.

It's called "Cane Fu."
[/quote]
Bill, I was hoping this thread had been shot dead, but "popped on" just to see where it has been going. I must say that #7 made me laugh out loud. As a retired LEO, I found ALL of your points on the money. Retreat and call in the professionals whenever possible.
Message: Posted by: Al Angello (Jun 25, 2010 10:25AM)
"Restaurant patron gets shot in argument with magician over a balloon"

This type of news paper headline could stop your career in it's tracks.
Message: Posted by: Tim Dowd (Jun 26, 2010 04:54PM)
Thanks Bill... I never went to a firearms class but I can see from your list the material and instruction is first class. I really should read these links before posting :)

I still think that carrying a weapon is a great responsibility, and I am not in your pro-gun/anti-gun mindset.
I was brought up to believe that it is not normal to carry guns. I can though appreciate that in a society where this is normal there may be a higher rate of gun related crime, and when the laws are amended to allow even more rights to carry guns the already higher rate would come back down towards normal levels.

My original post was my opinion that in a heated situation if no weapon is introduced then the highest form of escalation is "fisticuffs". Once a weapon is introduced then the escalation has a higher probability of becoming deadly and that the aggressor is more likely to use the weapon, whoever initially introduced it into the argument.

In conclusion (I promise I won't post to this thread again...) you need to be a certain type of person to be able to draw, point and pull the trigger of a deadly weapon. I can only assume that most dangerous criminals have no issues with doing this so if you draw and point but fail to pull the trigger, the assailant has the upper hand whether he has a weapon or not and you may end up being killed with your own gun. If you don't have one then the odds are that the issue will not escalate. I am of course talking about casual arguments outside venues and not in the middle of gangland or drug infested inner cities...

so to answer the question "do you carry protection to gigs?"
No, I don't
Message: Posted by: KirkG (Jun 27, 2010 12:12AM)
Hey Tim,

Nice post. Much more reasoned. Unfortunately you made a big error at the beginning when you wrote, " . . in a heated situation if no weapon is introduced then the highest form of escalation is "fisticuffs"." I am pretty sure you meant to say "if no gun is introduced . ." This is wrong on two counts.

First, fisticuffs are not equal if one is bigger, or more trained, or has that killer instinct you mentioned.

Secondly, often another weapon is brought to bear, like bottles, knives, cars, clubs etc.

Most who have guns and carry them, won't bring them out until the situation escalates to the point where it is necessary.

You have a very good pint in that if you are not ready to fight for your life, regardless of method, the bad guy has an advantage.
Message: Posted by: jesse_james_mcguire (Jun 27, 2010 10:42AM)
I carry a 45 blackhawk. People leave me alone.
Message: Posted by: gnosis (Jul 5, 2010 06:00AM)
All the insults and bad blood in this thread are a perfect illustration of why the [url=http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=23339&forum=32&1]rules[/url] for the "Not very magical, still" section say:

"Because the Café has a worldwide membership, politics is another area that is best not tackled here. We are, after all, a magic website."

Without needing to be said, that should go double for the rest of the Café, including the "Table hoppers & party strollers" section.

Those people who want to use this thread as an opportunity for political grandstanding, or who want to belittle and denigrate people who don't agree with their opinions should really take it elsewhere. There are plenty of other forums for that sort of thing.
Message: Posted by: PaulTemple (Jul 5, 2010 10:22AM)
I would'nt take anything. Just my usual wit and charm!
Message: Posted by: Jon Hackett (Jul 6, 2010 02:59AM)
GGrrr,

Why does anyone on this thread have to be 'wrong' ??

(especially aimed at you kirkg)

Im with Tim, I don't know anyone, that has known anyone; whom has been murdered. Maybe that is the same for most people, but I do think that the fact that it is illegal for just about anyone to carry a dangerous weapon in my country has a big effect on that.

If I had the choice of going to a bar that was a gun free zone, or a bar that was not, I would know where I'd be going! I genuinely don't think that hardly any of us, as human beings (and not magi) are responsible enough to carry something that can take another persons life in less than a blink of an eye.

Why? Because more often than not in life; people want to tell us that we are; wrong.

Anyway, ignoring that logic puzzle, here is a relevant statistic that is on the BBC homepage today. (remember this it is a statistic!!!)


'In 1999, the total number of people killed by guns in the USA was 28,874. In Britain, the figure was 207.'


VERY roughly speaking, the population of the USA is ten times that if the UK, so for the figure to be a 'softer' statistic, 30,000 deaths in a pro-gun zone from guns, and 3,000 amongst the same number in a gun-free zone.


Which, as I said, means nothing, But is an interesting thing to muse on.

"Computers have enabled people to make more mistakes faster than almost any invention in history, with the possible exception of tequila and handguns." CARL GUNDLACH


JH
Message: Posted by: Mr. Pitts (Jul 6, 2010 10:13AM)
I'm a funny little guy, not particularly threatening, but not a victim type either. I've worked in bars and restaurants, backyard parties using tattooed gangbangers as volunteers in my ridiculous little circus act. I'm not particularly pro-gun or anti-gun, but I don't carry one. I do parties in some rough neighborhoods here in San Antonio, but I've always felt welcomed and protected by the families I perform for.

I've only run into two situations in over 20 years, both involved balloon busking type situations, where a mom or teenager got really angry that they didn't get a balloon. Stupid people and those stupid balloons.

I didn't feel seriously threatened in either situation. I guess I've mostly just been lucky, plus I don't have the type of personality that makes peope want to cause me harm.
Message: Posted by: Al Angello (Jul 6, 2010 10:37AM)
Mr. Pitts
It happened to me just the other night. I was making balloon animals for the little kiddies at a biker bar, and tempers started to heat up in the balloon line, so I was forced to tell one of the bikers "get back in line buddie or I'll fill you full of led". This is a regular occurance with me, and I have a reputation as the balloon guy who takes no prisoners.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Pitts (Jul 6, 2010 11:09AM)
"The Balloon Guy Who Takes No Prisoners"

You should put that on your business cards.

You know it's going to be a bad day when you've gotta kill some guy over a weiner dog balloon.
Message: Posted by: Al Angello (Jul 6, 2010 11:21AM)
You shouldn't pack heat if you're afraid to blow those unhappy balloon customers away.

What do you mean you wanted a hat instead of a flower?

GO AHEAD MAKE MY DAY
Message: Posted by: Natanel (Jul 6, 2010 02:06PM)
FWIW I wont even carry a swiss army knife and I can pretty much guarantee you no one works gigs in as dangerous neighborhoods as I do.

(unless you are stationed in Afghanistan)
Message: Posted by: bertoneski (Jul 6, 2010 06:14PM)
Every gig I play I take:

3 cans of mace
44 magnum with hollow point shells
a set of titanium knuckle dusters
Kevlar vest
2 tasers
Bowie knife
7 days survival rations
Biological warfare suit and Geiger counter
Guillotine and noose
Abrahams tank
Uzi 9mm
and a bottle of Corn Huskers
Message: Posted by: Jon Hackett (Jul 7, 2010 07:57AM)
Bertoneski;

you forgot your mother-in-law!

JH
Message: Posted by: derrick (Jul 7, 2010 09:42AM)
In my very humble opinion, this is a thread that should have been closed or deleted long ago. I'm convinced after reading too much of this that my home protection should stay right there.
Message: Posted by: patrick flanagan (Jul 7, 2010 10:19AM)
[quote]
On 2010-06-27 01:12, KirkG wrote:

Most who have guns and carry them, won't bring them out until the situation escalates to the point where it is necessary.
[/quote]

That is an interesting assumption. Are there any statistics to back this up? A couple of weekends ago in Chicago, we had 52 people shot... IN ONE WEEKEND. Are you telling me that "most" of these situations escalated to the "necessary" point?
Message: Posted by: patrick flanagan (Jul 7, 2010 10:25AM)
[quote]
On 2010-07-06 15:06, Natanel wrote:
FWIW I wont even carry a swiss army knife and I can pretty much guarantee you no one works gigs in as dangerous neighborhoods as I do.

(unless you are stationed in Afghanistan)
[/quote]
Natanel,
What area do you work in? I thought I remember you working higher end hotels and restaurants.
patrick
Message: Posted by: Al Angello (Jul 7, 2010 10:34AM)
Most people who cary concealed weapons are dieing to whip it out, so they can show everybody what a psycho they are.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Pitts (Jul 7, 2010 10:48AM)
I used to tend bar at my dad's little honky tonk. People under the influence will go for their gun over 50 cents on the pool table. I've actually seen this. Carrying a gun does tend to make a person more likely to take chances, mouth off and shoot someone in a situation that could have been cooled off. I saw a kid get shot right in front of me in high school. It was an accident, but he's been in a wheelchair for over 30 years. That's his life. It also ruined the life of the kid who accidentally shot him. Carrying a gun isn't something to take lightly at all.
Message: Posted by: Woland (Jul 7, 2010 03:39PM)
"A couple of weekends ago in Chicago, we had 52 people shot... IN ONE WEEKEND."

Chicago has had for many decades about the most stringent anti-gun laws in the USA. It is illegal for a Chicago resident to own a handgun even within the confines of the home that once was regarded as his castle. In fact, the anti-gun law which the Supreme Court of the United States just overturned was Chicago's law (McDonald vs. Chicago -- read Justice Thomas's concurring opinion, against which no other Justice breathed a word, for jurisprudence that restores proper protection to a God-given right the 2nd Amendment compels the government to respect). The aldermen just enacted the most stringent new law Mayor Daley thought they could get away with.

Outlaw guns, and only outlaws have guns, and the situation you have in Chicago is the result.

When decent, law-abiding people are allowed by the State to defend themselves, civic harmony is the result.

As I mentioned once before, in Edwardian England, it was commonplace for doctors, dentists, ministers, and business owners to carry a revolver. (Just read your Sherlock Holmes . . . but the matter is well attested in numerous histories of the period.) Gun crime was virtually unknown. Flash forward to the 21st century, when a disarmed English population is more and more frequently victimized by violent criminals, often armed with guns that decent, law-abiding people are forbidden to own.
Message: Posted by: Al Angello (Jul 7, 2010 05:55PM)
Woland
Get down off of your soap box, this thread is about threatening people who want a balloon animal, and no one is trying to take your gun away cowboy.
Message: Posted by: Woland (Jul 7, 2010 09:05PM)
My apologies, Mr. Angello. Although this thread began with a description of the situation to which you allude, my reading of the previous 10 pages of comments inclines me to the opinion that a lot of other ground has been covered as well.

I have also been interested to observe which side in the argument has resorted to ridicule, name-calling, insults, and demanding that those who take the other side simply shut up.

Have a nice night.

Woland
Message: Posted by: Al Angello (Jul 7, 2010 09:27PM)
I think that it is high time for the magic Café management to terminate this thread.
Message: Posted by: Woland (Jul 7, 2010 09:56PM)
Dear Mr. Angello, that is sometimes although not always the last refuge of a man who knows he is losing the argument . . .

And of course it goes without saying that nobody is forcing you nor I to read it or participate in it . . .

Let us resolve rather that our differences of opinion on many various and sundry matters should never sway us from the devotion to the magical art which is important enough in our lives to compel us to enjoy this forum.

And let us be gentlemanly enough to admit that among those who do not share our views there may also be gentlemen, just as there may be louts among those who do share them.

Peace all ways,

Woland
Message: Posted by: KirkG (Jul 7, 2010 09:58PM)
[quote]
On 2010-07-07 11:19, patrick flanagan wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-06-27 01:12, KirkG wrote:

Most who have guns and carry them, won't bring them out until the situation escalates to the point where it is necessary.
[/quote]

That is an interesting assumption. Are there any statistics to back this up? A couple of weekends ago in Chicago, we had 52 people shot... IN ONE WEEKEND. Are you telling me that "most" of these situations escalated to the "necessary" point?
[/quote]

Don't close the thread yet!

Patrick,

I think you are missing the point. IT is illegal to carry in Chicago so all those guys were probably gang bangers and already criminals. If the nice guys could carry guns too, then these hooligans would be less likely to unleash theirs. Do us a favor, check on those 52 shooting incidents and give us the statistics of the situations. I think you will find none of them were balloon making magicians.

And Jon,

I have countered you each time with facts and the fact is you are wrong, so don't get in a huff, or I may have to pull a weapon, because that would be the only appropriate response. I am thinking of a balloon blaster!
Message: Posted by: Jon Hackett (Jul 8, 2010 03:00AM)
You will learn eventually Kirkg, no one is wrong, you just don't understand your own reality yet.

We have had a five day man hunt for a man that has shot three people here in the UK. It is front page news everywhere here. Even the SAS are coming in today to find him.

Three people. Two dead.

And yet, that is nothing compared to any equally populated area as the USA. 'Only' three people shot, and the best special forces in the world is moving in. It is believed he only has a single hand gun.

I just genuinely don't understand how people can be so anti-life, but then I suppose also, I haven't experienced the fear and terror of living in a criminally run area. Perhaps if guns are supposed to be the answer in those areas, then the 'nice' guys should just move away.


The truth is, no one is wrong. But what is wrong? Having millions of deadly weapons.

And I do not know what you mean by 'countered' Kirk, but if it means winning the argument, you have definitely won the argument, it seems most citizens of your country agree with you, no question I am a loser for disliking guns.

But lets all agree on one thing, NO ONE SHOULD BE CARRY GUNS TO GIGS!!

Please at least agree with that Kirk and Woland.

JH
Message: Posted by: patrick flanagan (Jul 8, 2010 11:50AM)
Kirk,
I agree that someone is missing the point. I disagree that it's me. I must have missed the part where you said that only people that legally own guns will bring them out once the situation escalates to the point where it is necessary. If that is the point you were trying to make, I'll still disagree with that. I'm not sure where you live, but pick up a Chicago newspaper nearly any day of the week and you will find a story about someone being shot. Throw in alcohol, 95 degree temps, high humidity, bad day at the office...any number of things could flip a previously law-abiding citizen to pull out his gun. The Chicago Sun-Times showed a synopsis of each shooting. Several were gang-bangers, while several were also normal citizens in the wrong place at the wrong time. To think that, in Chicago, gang-bangers and convicted criminals are the only ones that own guns is extremely naive.
Oh, and you are correct about one thing....noone that was shot was a balloon twisting magician.
patrick
Message: Posted by: Woland (Jul 8, 2010 12:29PM)
Jon Hackett:

Whether a performer carries a weapon to a job or not is something that each performer should decide for himself or herself. I am making no blanket recommendations either way.

My initial comments in this thread were intended simply to point out that the Constitution gives no rights to American citizens; it serves rather to compel the Federal government(and by the 14th Amendment, State and Local governments) to respect the rights with which we are endowed by God.

For myself, if I thought I "needed" to carry a weapon to any place, I would simply not go there. As a civilian, there is no need for me to go into any situation I know will be dangerous. (The purpose of carrying a handgun is not to provide defense in situations that are anticipated to be dangerous. A handgun is not the best choice for that situation; any law enforcement officer would bring a long gun to a situation in which a fight was anticipated. The only feature that makes a handgun at all useful is protability. A handgun is what you carry in situations you deem to be safe; it is a form of insurance against the possibility that you have misjudged the situation, and that your safety will be compromised unexpectedly.)

Let's think about the danger of "millions of deadly weapons" for a moment.

Statistics can be as misleading as first impressions.

There are in the United States, something on the order of 300 million firearms in private hands. Americans buy something like 10 billion rounds of ammunition a year.

The number of people of are killed by accidents involving firearms in the United States is something like 1,000 a year.

Does that sound dangerous?

In contrast, there are about fewer than 1 million physicians and surgeons in the United States. About 600,000 or so of them are in active clinical practice. (I was once one of them.)

According to a 1999 report prepared by the Institute of Medicine of the National Academy of Sciences, a non-governmental body that includes some of the most eminent physicans and surgeons in the country, (including some of my former teachers, colleagues, and patients), every year about 90,000 people in the United States die as the result of medical errors.

A more recent estimate by HealthGrades puts that figure at 195,000 deaths per year due to preventable medical errors in hospitals.

There is one accidental death per 300,000 firearms per year.

There is one or two accidental deaths per 6 active doctors per year.

Which is more dangerous to take with you to a gig, a gun or a doctor?


Kirk and Patrick:

The existing experience in States that have adopted "shall issue" permit policies (in which the Sheriff issues a carry permit to anyone who meets basic legal requirements, without any judgment as to whether the applicant "needs" the permit --40 States so far, I think, and counting) is that permittees very rarely use their weapons at all, and inappropriate use has been extremely rare. Remember, in most States, permittees have been through police background checks and firearms safety training. Only in Vermont and Alaska, unless I am mistaken, can almost any adult carry an open or concealed weapon without any sort of permit at all.

Respectfully submitted,

Woland
Message: Posted by: patrick flanagan (Jul 8, 2010 12:54PM)
Woland,
Interesing points you bring up. To answer your question, it would be more dangerous, apparently, to bring a doctor to a gig. Well, provided once I'm at the gig, I will be examined, diagnosed, and treated for some type of medical condition. If I'm not going to be probed and treated for a medical condition, I still conclude that it would be more dangerous to bring a gun to a gig.
In spite of everything, this has been an interesting discussion. Lots of opinions and points of view...which in my world, is a good thing. I'm not sure why Al feels this topic should be closed. I do find it amusing that Al doesn't want to read anymore about this topic....but he still does. lol
patrick
Message: Posted by: Al Angello (Jul 8, 2010 03:59PM)
Pat
It is like a car wreck that you can't take your eyes away from.
Message: Posted by: KirkG (Jul 8, 2010 11:36PM)
Patrick,

With respect to Chicago and most of the US, once you remove the shootings done by gang bangers and drug deals, both on innocents and themselves, our numbers go way down. It isn't Tom, Dick and Harry, going on a shooting spree.

Then it is the other criminals who rob and steal. Very rarely is it an accidental discharge or weapon being turned on the owner. Frequently it is relationship abuse, but more are killed with poison and knives than guns.

Many times the mere presence of a firearm, without being fired is all that is necessary to prevent a crime from being committed or injuries inflicted.

When and if I carry a gun, it is for my protection. I haven't felt a need to carry one to a magic show. Not everyone has the ability to just move. Nor should anyone have to. That is the point about being able to defend yourself as the police have gone on record to say they won't do it.

I would rather avoid certain areas, but sometimes I don't have that choice. Gangs are moving into every area. A handgun in the hand is better than a long gun in the car or at home, when the need arises. If we could predict when that would be, then we really wouldn't need them after all.
Message: Posted by: patrick flanagan (Jul 9, 2010 10:32AM)
Kirk,
I do understand what you are saying. I'm not advocating for or against anyone's right to carry a weapon. I'm not a big fan of guns...i've never shot one. However, I have been considering getting one. I'm not as svelte, strong, or fast as I used to be. Aside from the normal gang problems, the rapid growth of cheap drugs in this country (meth, heroin, crack) has, in my opinion, changed the game. In my neck of the woods (Chicago and suburbs), heroin usage is, if the newspapers can be believed, at an epidemic level. It's become the drug of choice due to being so inexpensive. Coincidentally, home invasions, car jackings, and other types of robberies has also increased. Add that to the steady decline in valuing human life multiplied by the prevelant "where's mine?" attitude being fostered in our country...preheat the oven at 375 degrees and bake for an hour and you'll have a fine recipe for trouble.
And for Al's benefit, I'll include something magic related. Is there any better reference for learning to cull large quantities of cards than Kimlat's Roadrunner Cull? I've recently become obsessed with this.
Patrick
Message: Posted by: actorscotty (Jul 10, 2010 09:34AM)
Never had a real problem when balloon twisting, lots of times someone asks, "you have time to do one more" I smile and say yes, but there are twenty more people waiting,,,, I now follow advise I found on here long ago,,,,, I have a sign saying " I am the last in line", to have the last kid or last parent in my line hold,i hand out that sign to the last one in the existing line, and if anyone else arrives, I point out the sign and say, sorry, I have another show to get to
Message: Posted by: Natanel (Jul 10, 2010 02:55PM)
[quote]
On 2010-07-07 11:25, patrick flanagan wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-07-06 15:06, Natanel wrote:
FWIW I wont even carry a swiss army knife and I can pretty much guarantee you no one works gigs in as dangerous neighborhoods as I do.

(unless you are stationed in Afghanistan)
[/quote]
Natanel,
What area do you work in? I thought I remember you working higher end hotels and restaurants.
patrick
[/quote]

I still manage to work a few gigs like that but I recently moved to Baltimore from Washington DC. There is a very cool resurgent art scene here but being involved with it means working (and living) in some very dicey neighborhoods.
Message: Posted by: KirkG (Jul 10, 2010 06:58PM)
Here is an interesting statistic. LA just came out and said Half of the gun murders in LA are from gang members.
Message: Posted by: writeall (Jul 11, 2010 02:17AM)
I feel like I got ripped off. When I saw the thread title, I just naturally assumed he meant the other kind of protection -- the latex kind. Now, all my visions of hot magic-groupie chicks have disappeared. Or do we need a gun for that?
Message: Posted by: Woland (Jul 11, 2010 12:26PM)
Natanel,

Mrs. Woland and I lived in Baltimore from around 1978 until 1995.

I know what you are talking about.

Be careful, and stay safe!

Woland
Message: Posted by: patrick flanagan (Jul 12, 2010 09:54AM)
[quote]
On 2010-07-10 19:58, KirkG wrote:
Here is an interesting statistic. LA just came out and said Half of the gun murders in LA are from gang members.
[/quote].
Here is another interesting statistic. LA just came out and said half of the gun murders in LA are NOT from gang members. Sorry, KirkG...i just couldn't help myself. :) :)
Message: Posted by: derrick (Jul 12, 2010 10:04AM)
I also understand there are three kinds if people posting on thead. Those that can count and those that can't.
Message: Posted by: KirkG (Jul 13, 2010 12:06AM)
Pat,
No problem. Once you remove the gang influence, we don't have very many gun murders.
Message: Posted by: J.G. the magnificent (Jul 15, 2010 12:34PM)
[quote]
On 2010-06-09 15:43, Bill Palmer wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-06-03 07:05, Tim Dowd wrote:
Another link I'm afraid... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
[/quote]

Wikipedia is possibly the least accurate source of information on the internet. Remember it is written by its subscribers, most of which have no credentials of any kind. In this case, much of the data is over 15 years old. Comparing the US death rate by firearms in 2004 with the death rate in Mexico in 1993, for example, is ludicrous.

Firearms infractions and violent crimes involving firearms should be viewed by State, when quoting US crime rates. I live in Texas. We experienced a verifiably significant drop in violent crime involving firearms the year after concealed carry first went in, and in at least the two years following it. Not all states in the US have concealed carry laws. In many of the states, concealed carry is not permitted, nor is open carry.

In Texas, were first allowed to obtain permits to carry concealed in 1999, which is six years after the first statistics in the Wikipedia article. I obtained my concealed carry permit shortly after that, not to carry weapons of any kind to magic shows or other similar performances, but because I was involved in Western Theatrical work, which required that I use actual firearms and not cap pistols. At the time, Texas law stated that if I had firearms in my vehicle, I was required to go directly to the place they were being used (firing range, repair facility or performance) without making any stops (such as gasoline, lunch, picking up other members of the troupe). The concealed handgun license eliminated that problem.

In order to obtain said license, I had to undergo a thorough background check by both the Texas Department of Public Safety and the Federal Bureau of Investigation. I had to take an eight hour course that covered gun laws, anger management and the simple logic of carrying a pistol or revolver. I had to pass a written examination that covered the material quite exhaustively, and I also had to qualify on the shooting range.

The main things I took away from that class was that:
1) Drawing a pistol is the second to last resort.
2) Shooting someone is the very last resort.
3) There is no such thing as an "OOPS" or an "Oh, S**T!" when a bullet you fire hits someone it wasn't intended for.
4) Someone yelling an obscenity at you is not a reason to shoot them.
5) It's better to duck for cover than to shoot back.
6) Don't assume that because someone has tied a woman to a tree and is apparently slapping her that he is doing it against her will. They may be enjoying it. Call the police instead.
7) Having a concealed handgun license does not make you James Bond.
8) If you think you have had a bad day, wait until you shoot someone. Then you will have a really bad day that will stay with you for the rest of your life.
9) Don't shoot anyone, unless your life or the life of one of your family is clearly in danger. Then call your lawyer and 911 in that order.
10) On second thought. Don't shoot anyone, if there is any way to avoid it.
11) It's cheaper to replace your car and its contents than it is to pay a defense attorney.

So, what good is a concealed handgun license? Well, let's see. Monday when I went to Travelex to get a draught on a London bank, I needed two pieces of identification. When I purchase a handgun or a rifle, I don't have to go through a background check. My CHL provides that check in advance.

And the more people who have CHL's, the more likely a violent person is to wonder whether YOU are the fellow who is packing heat.

BTW, I never carry. I don't need to.

However, I do have a walking stick. At my age, it is a necessity. And I can do almost all the moves I learned while taking bayonet training in the Army with a walking stick.

It's called "Cane Fu."
[/quote]
I now realize what you are saying about wikipedia Bill however. Anyone may post on the magiccafe as well. Yet it is a very respected site amongst magicians. For the most part if people post something on any site in my opinion it is because they know what they are talking about or at least close to it. I wouldn't use wikipedia for a research paper or essay yet for baisic information I think it is fine.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Jul 16, 2010 12:44PM)
[quote]
On 2010-07-07 11:34, Al Angello wrote:
Most people who cary concealed weapons are dieing to whip it out, so they can show everybody what a psycho they are.
[/quote]

Do you have statistical proof of this? Or are you just BIOYA?

Posted: Jul 16, 2010 1:55pm
Jeremy -- the difference between Wikipedia and the Magic Café is very significant. With Wikipedia, you never really know who posted what. With the Magic Café, at least you know who some of the posters are.

Example:
I went to Wikipedia to get the birth and death dates of a well-known Austrian magic author. I noticed immediately that the names of his translated publications were wrong, and I also noticed that whoever had posted the original material had left out some rather significant ones.

That's basic information. It was wrong.

I corrected it.

BTW, I don't suppose you remember the scandal a few years ago when a "PhD" who had written many articles for Wikipedia was exposed as being wrong a significant amount of the time, and of not having even graduated from high school.

The fact is that the entire internet is suspect. Anyone can register a domain and set up a web site. You can do this for a pittance. There is no requirement that anyone tell the truth on a web site.

Think about this the next time your grade (or your life) depends on something you saw on the internet.
Message: Posted by: Al Angello (Jul 16, 2010 07:35PM)
Bill
I have no hard evidence, but one doesn't hold the ace of trump unless he plans to use it to win the game.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Jul 18, 2010 04:08PM)
Actually, you must admit that you have NO evidence one way or the other.
Message: Posted by: Woland (Jul 19, 2010 06:37AM)
In case anyone reading this thread is interested in evidence, at least statistical evidence, Howard Nemerov has compiled Brady Campaign scores, CDC gun-ownership survey data, and FBI crime data.

[url=http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/states-with-stricter-gun-control-laws-are-less-safe/]Click here.[/url]

The conclusions?

* States with the lowest firearms ownership average the highest firearm and non-firearm homicide rates.
* As firearms ownership rates increase, homicide rates generally decrease.
* States with the highest gun ownership have the lowest firearms homicide rates.

That's also true with respect to the right-to-carry. The approximately 40 states that require sheriffs to issue carry permits to any law-abiding adults who apply for them have lower firearms and non-firearms murder rates than those states which deny the right-to-carry or allow sheriffs to exercise personal discretion in issuing permits.

As far as the Brady Campaign is concerned:

* Brady’s favorite states experienced the highest rates of homicide.
* The general trend indicates that as Brady grades decline, so do homicide rates.
* Brady’s “worst” states experienced the lowest rates of firearms and non-firearms homicide.

No need to take my word for it.

You can click over to the article, and inspect the data tables yourself.

Maybe it is possible that individuals who carry legitimate tools for defending themselves do so because it is a reasonable, responsible thing for any good citizen to do.

Woland
Message: Posted by: Johnny Butterfield (Jul 19, 2010 05:30PM)
Gun homicides per 100,000 population (for the year indicated):
USA (2001) 3.98
Canada (2002) 0.4
Data taken from Cukier and Sidel (2006) The Global Gun Epidemic. Praeger Security International. Westport.

Toronto, with relatively strict gun control laws had 1.8 homicides per 100,000 population. St. Louis had 33.7*

Strict federal/provincial/municipal control of firearms makes you almost 10 times less likely to be murdered. In some cities, almost 20 times less likely.

*Source of Canadian stats: StatsCan 2004 (The Daily, July 21, 2005)
Source of American stats: Department of Justice Uniform Crime Reports
In Canada "Homicide" includes first and second degree murder, manslaughter and infanticide; in the in the United States it includes murder and non-negligent manslaughter
Message: Posted by: todsky (Jul 19, 2010 07:06PM)
I always found it perverse that on American TV, you are constantly barraged with violent programming and images of missiles obliterating villages in foreign lands, and yet when someone exposes a breast the whole country is in an uproar. I can only conclude that America fears love and sexuality, and its male population prefers Lockheed-Martin's exploding missiles to their own.

Guns represent death. They serve one function only, and that is to kill. America loves its guns. America loves its missiles, its fighter jets, "its bombs bursting in air". It's difficult for us Canadians, who don't share the same violent history, to understand this cult-like worship of the gun.

The following from Acecardician (not sure if that's his real name) is probably the most useful and pertinent post in this epic thread:

[quote]
On 2010-03-03 20:23, Acecardician wrote:
Back to the original post.
How about some helpful tips to try to not get in that situation?(I know we can't control the whims of irate people, but I found many of these things work to nip it in the bud:
To cut off a line, a clown friend of mine tells everyone he is on his way to Children's Hospital, that he has to go, he is late. Usually that shuts everyone up. I tried that line before and it worked.

Now when I book events to do balloons, I make sure I time it so that I finish when the event finishes and everyone has to leave. Or I find out how many kids and make sure they hire me for enough time so everyone gets a balloon. And I also have a "CLOSED" sign I made on my computer, I make several of them and tape one to the last persons back, and put one or two by me, and just point to the sign. I do this about 10 or 15 minutes before it was time to leave, so I can finish everyone in line. I've even bought rolls of tickets to give out. You need a ticket for a balloon.
I saw a face painter had a real cute rhyme on a laminated sheet they hung around the last persons neck. It was about being closed. It was so cute, you could not get mad at them.

Another idea is to tell them once you are finished any extra balloons are $5 each.
If they pay, then stay.

You can always leave if you say you have to go to the bathroom, that you are about to go on yourself.

I had another friend handle it in his contract. If he stayed over, each minute over the time was like $25 per minute. The person paying was sure to ALWAYS escort him out on time.

Once someone was waitng for my line to go down. It did not until I closed it. The agent for the event actually got at the end of the line to turn people away. When everyone was gone, I was packing up, and the person came up to me, thinking I had no one in line. Then I had to send them away. I went into the back to get paid. That person complained to the person in charge, so the agent paid me another $25 to go out and do that one balloon.

Coming up I am doing the Sheriff's Easter egg hunt. There will be thousands of kids. I did it 2 years ago. They had Sheriff deputies cut off my line. No one argued with them. When they re-booked me this year, I made sure to ask if they would be there to close off my line. She laughed and said yes!

Once in a public area, I had someone asking me how much money I made. My senses told me they might want to rob me. I made sure they knew I got paid by check or Visa Card ahead of time. Then I started making a lot of noise and attracted everyone and did a trick, and even a security guard came over to see what was going on. Then I got out of there.

I now work too many schools to carry. They are just not allowed, even with a permit. I think it is like 50-100 yards from the school. You get caught, you go to jail, and then you can never carry legally. Same thing with places that serve alcohol, which would be most of my adult shows.

I am a juggler, so I usually always have wooden bats and big heavy juggling blades with me that are visible.

(For the record, my training was as a Glockmeister.)

ACE
[/quote]
Message: Posted by: Woland (Jul 19, 2010 07:07PM)
Dear Fman,

There are many, many other differences between the USA and Canada, historically, culturally, and legally, which make the comparison you show less meaningful than comparisons between different American states.

Woland
Message: Posted by: Al Angello (Jul 19, 2010 08:09PM)
Todsky
Thank you for bringing that great post to my attention.

Ace
Jugglers are just that much smarter than magicians. LOL
Message: Posted by: Johnny Butterfield (Jul 19, 2010 09:50PM)
Dear Woland

Culturally and legally, we're far more alike than not. Our differences largely come down to spelling (colour, or cheque, or centre, for instance).

But generally, I think the stats will bear out that economics are a better indicator of where violent crime will occur rather than gun laws. Poverty and unemployment will lead to more deaths than the availability of firearms.

Are there any stats available on how many crimes guns prevent? Or how many armed people were the victims of violent crime? I'd be curious as to what that suggests.

To cherry-pick some stats;

New York City (Brady rating 50) 7.0 murders per 100,000 population
Boston (Brady rating 54) 10.5 murders per 100,000
San Diego (Brady rating 79) 4.8 murders per 100,00

St. Louis (Brady rating 4) 33.7 murders per 100,000
Dallas (Brady rating 9) 20.2 murders per 100,000
New Orleans (Brady rating 2) 56.0 murders per 100,000
Message: Posted by: Woland (Jul 20, 2010 06:21AM)
Fman,

As the epidemiologists like to say, it's multifactorial . . .

There are no statistics I am aware of for crimes that didn't happen.

Clayton Cramer tries to keep track of news stories about armed citizens who have thwarted or prevented crimes . . .

In all states that have adopted the shall-issue standard for concealed-carry permits, violent crimes against persons have declined.

Woland
Message: Posted by: imgic (Jul 20, 2010 10:52AM)
I tried staying away from this thread...but stats are being discussed and the geek in me just can't resist.

IMHO, there may be spurious correlation between concealed law states and crime rates. There are more variables involved in crimes than gun laws. I suspect that states that pass conceal laws tend to have a higher percentage of hunters, outdoorsmen, and others that grew up in a culture of properly handling a gun. These states are also likely to have less of the urban pressures that I suspect are larger drivers of crime rates.

And, as with anything, statistics can be interpreted in many different ways.

Again, just pointing out it's not a simple matter of direct correlation between two variables. Lots of factors in play here...willing to bet you'd find a correlation between the number of balloon artists in an area and the number of violent crimes. Not that the two are directly related...
Message: Posted by: Woland (Jul 20, 2010 01:00PM)
Dear imgic,

I agree that statistics do not necessarily support the answers their users think they support.

The available evidence, going back to the exchange that immediately preceeded my introduction of Howard Nemerov's analysis, the available evidence does not support the contention that concealed-carry licensees are "dieing to whip it out."

Woland
Message: Posted by: Bad to the Balloon (Jul 20, 2010 09:56PM)
[quote]
Again, just pointing out it's not a simple matter of direct correlation between two variables. Lots of factors in play here...willing to bet you'd find a correlation between the number of balloon artists in an area and the number of violent crimes. Not that the two are directly related...
[/quote]

Homicides hit 40-year low in St. Petersburg - St. Petersburg Times
Mar 12, 2010 ... Domestic violence resulted in five of the city's 11 homicides in 2009. Also, nine of those victims were killed by firearms.

Weird I can only think of 9 balloon artist out of St Petersburg..... Two moved away suddenly!!
Message: Posted by: Countage (Jul 21, 2010 10:27PM)
[quote]
On 2010-02-24 10:40, derrick wrote:
Last night I had a new and disturbing experience. I finished up my restaurant gig, cut the line off, working about 30 minutes longer than I was being paid for and then put my things away. One of the parents pulled me aside to let me know there was a mad and intimidating looking man/father (bald, tattoos, lots of ink) that was angry I had cut the line off and that his child didn't get a balloon. When making balloons, one has to cut the line somewhere. He wasn't even at the cut off mark. He didn't complain to me or to management, but was mad enough to make other patrons uneasy. I informed our security about him and made my way out the door. I stopped at Best Buy on the way home and that's when I realized the guy had followed me there. I was looking at noise cancelling headphones when he slowly walked past without a word and just a threatening glare to let me know he was there. I informed security, went to my car and home. He didn't follow me home, and my wife is a police detective so I'm not too concerned about my personal protection at home, but it wouldn't be hard, with the internet today, to find out what my personal address is. So according to just how disturbed this guy is, in more ways than one, I a little concerned. Others had this problem?
[/quote]

Have you ever seen Bad Santa with Billy Bob Thornton. When the mother and child came up to him in the mall food court and said " Oh look its Santa" He said "I f****ing eating."
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Jul 22, 2010 01:37AM)
One of the chief differences between the US and most of the rest of the world is that the US has a constitutionally guaranteed right to keep and bear arms. Most of the rest of the world does not. This includes Canada.

It's not so much that we love our guns. That's almost like saying that we love our lathes, our electric drills and any other tools that we have. It's that we love our rights and freedoms.

Take a look sometime at current events in Mexico. They have stricter gun laws than the U.S. In fact, they have stricter gun laws than Chicago or New York. But their murder rate by firearms incredibly high. And it's not the poor people who are doing the killing. It's the drug lords and their gangs.

Those same gangs are present in all of the border states, from California to Texas, and into Louisiana and over to Florida.

The part of Houston where I live was once a very peaceful suburban area. Now we are surrounded by MS-13, Crips, Bloods, Southwest Cholos and a host of other gangs most of you have never heard of.

We have a right to protect ourselves from these people. The police don't bother.

BTW, to get back to the original question. Do I carry protection to gigs? No. In Texas, it is illegal to take a firearm into a place that earns more than 51% of its income from the sale of alcohol, a hospital, a church or a school. Most of my work falls into one of those categories.
Message: Posted by: todsky (Jul 22, 2010 09:22PM)
I guess the right to bear arms keeps the ultimate power in the hands (quite literally) of the people. Sounds democratic. I will ponder...

Meanwhile, I suppose if I lived in a neighbourhood where I feared for my safety and my life I might consider wielding some kind of 'protection'. Here in Montreal I've never feared walking anywhere day or night, although I have had some upset kiddies and parents who didn't get balloon sculptures when I had to leave (and I usually give extra time if I can). My biggest fear here is sculpting balloons and getting punched in the billiard balls by a 4 year-old boy just because he can and he's the right (wrong) height. (I wear a stainless steel jock ever since).
Message: Posted by: Woland (Jul 23, 2010 05:38AM)
Todsky,

Remember that the Constitution does NOT give American citizens any rights that the people of any and all countries don't have . . . it just explicitly instructs the government not to infringe those rights with which we were already endowed . . . by our Creator.

Woland
Message: Posted by: todsky (Jul 23, 2010 06:54AM)
Woland,

Many countries' citizens don't have nearly as many rights as the USA, or Canada, or any other western democracy. And do you mean to say that your Creator endowed you with the right to use guns? I don't remember reading that in the Bible.
Message: Posted by: Woland (Jul 23, 2010 09:01AM)
Dear todsky,

According to our Declaration of Independence, which has the force of Law in the United States, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."

We claim that all human beings have these rights, the fact that their rights are not respected by various governments around the world doesn't mean that hose human beings don;t have those same rights, it just shows that those governments are unjust.

The right to keep and bear arms is a corollary of the right of self-defense, which is a corollary of the right to Life.

Woland
Message: Posted by: patrick flanagan (Jul 23, 2010 10:31AM)
That whole "all men are created equal" thing always makes me laugh. That was written by men who OWNED other men/women.
Message: Posted by: Woland (Jul 23, 2010 10:38AM)
Dear patrick flanagan,

Most of the founders, including more than a few slaveholders, knew that slaveholding was wrong; the Declaration is an expression of Truth rather than facts.

In a preliminary draft, Jefferson listed the slave trade as one of the abuses of the King: "He has waged cruel war against human nature itself, violating its most sacred rights of life and liberty in the persons of a distant people who never offended him, captivatng and carrying them into slavery in another hemisphere, or to incur miserable death in their transportation thither. This piratical warfare, the opprobrium of INFIDEL powers, is the warfare of the CHRISTIAN king of Great Britain. Determined to keep open a market where MEN should be bought and sold, he has prostituted his negative for suppressing every legislative attempt to prohibit or to restrain this execrable commerce. And that this assemblage of horrors might want no fact of distinguished die, he is now exciting those very people to rise in arms among us, and to purchase that liberty of which he has deprived them, by murdering the people for whom he also obtruded them: thus paying off former crimes committed against the LIBERTIES of one people, with crimes which he urges them to commit against the LIVES of another."

That charge wasnot acceptable to the entire committee.

The problem of descrepancies between what an individual knows to be good and true and what that same individual does in daily life has been noted for a long time. Paul discusses it in the Letter to the Romans, Chapter 7.

Would you have done any better, in 1776?

Woland
Message: Posted by: todsky (Jul 23, 2010 01:19PM)
[quote]
On 2010-07-23 10:01, Woland wrote:
Dear todsky,

According to our Declaration of Independence, which has the force of Law in the United States, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."

We claim that all human beings have these rights, the fact that their rights are not respected by various governments around the world doesn't mean that hose human beings don;t have those same rights, it just shows that those governments are unjust.

The right to keep and bear arms is a corollary of the right of self-defense, which is a corollary of the right to Life.

Woland
[/quote]

Thanks for clarifying that; I'm getting a good political education on this magic web site.
Message: Posted by: The great Gumbini (Jul 23, 2010 10:35PM)
To carry or not carry is not the question. The question is do you know WHEN you have the right to shoot anyone in self-defense? Because someone LOOKS like they are a danger to you does not merit a bullet between the eyes. In America you can get a CWP (Concealed weapons permit) but you have to show cause for having one. "I do balloon animals at parties." would most likely NOT get you the CWP. Remember we are there to entertain. I understand cutting the line etc. but I would recommend some kind of a little gift for those who didn't get in (attached to a signed business card of yours). In this world a little kindness goes a long way. Also I might recommend one thing as well. Never be the one who cuts the line. Explain to the person who hired you that THEY will need to have someone do that when needed. You are the entertainer not the door-man.

Hope this helps.


Good magic to all,


Eric
Message: Posted by: Woland (Jul 24, 2010 09:39PM)
Eric,

[quote]In America you can get a CWP (Concealed weapons permit) but you have to show cause for having one. "I do balloon animals at parties." would most likely NOT get you the CWP.[/quote]

Actually, that sort of "show cause" restriction only applies in California, Hawaii, Iowa, New York, New Jersey, Delaware, Maryland, and Massachusetts.

It is legally impossible for a civilian to carry a concealed weapon in Wisconsin and Illinois and the safe, low-crime District of Columbia (and, practically speaking, next to impossible in New Jersey, parts of New York {depending on the county}, and Maryland.)

In Vermont and Alaska, no permit is required to carry a weapon either openly or concealed. Any law-abiding adult in those states can carry a weapon without any specific police vetting process. (Alaska issues permits so that its residents can enjoy reciprocity with other states. In Vermont there are no permits at all.) On July 29, next week, Arizona will no longer require a permit for concealed carry, but will continue to issue permits to any law-abiding adult residents who want one for reciprocity with other states.

In the vast majority of states, 40 if you count Alaska and Arizona, the issuing authority, usually the county sheriff, is required by law to issue a concealed carry permit to any adult who meets certain basic qualifications (e.g., not a felon, not under any restraining orders, never committed to a psychiatric hospital, not an habitual drunkard or drug user, etc.) You most certainly do not have to "show cause" as to why you need to have one. In states that ask for a reason to have the permit, "self defense" would be the box to check, and that would be considered plenty enough reason for it.

I hope you find this information helpful, and I wish you continued good magic, too!

Woland
Message: Posted by: MrBadGuy (Jul 24, 2010 11:46PM)
As the original topic was asking if you carry protection, I will speak to that. Yes, I carry a Glock 22 .40 SW everywhere. I perform a lot in Philadelphia late at night so I always feel safer with it. I also carry a Swiss Army knife because those things are just so handy!
Message: Posted by: KirkG (Jul 31, 2010 04:04PM)
I think it is also important to mention, that many Brady statistics are outright lies. There are many sites devoted to debunking their publications.
Message: Posted by: Al Angello (Aug 1, 2010 11:59AM)
MrBadGuy
I also perform in Philadelphia late at night, and I always carry a cell phone. I used to carry a Swiss Army knife, but they confiscated it at the Airport the last time I flew. Stop giving Philly a bad name. Just what neighborhoods do you work in that you need a gun to protect you from the boogie man?
Message: Posted by: montymagi (Aug 1, 2010 08:05PM)
With all the post on the Café' this is the one with the most legs. You guys....
Message: Posted by: Paddy (Aug 2, 2010 10:54AM)
" In America you can get a CWP (Concealed weapons permit) but you have to show cause for having one. "I do balloon animals at parties." would most likely NOT get you the CWP."
Yep it will, all you have to add is "and I carry large amounts of cash after being paid." That's what I told them and it got me my CWP. I have never carried when entertaining, but do carry when on the road and have over $100 in cash with me. If Igo to a state or jurisdiction when carrying is not allowed I follow the adage "I would rather be tried by 12 men, good and true, than carried by 6." Just my feelings, to each his own.
Message: Posted by: patrick flanagan (Aug 2, 2010 11:13AM)
[quote]
On 2010-08-02 11:54, Paddy wrote:
"I would rather be tried by 12 men, good and true, than carried by 6." [/quote]

Paddy, it's been a long time since I've heard that adage. My old karate instructor (27 years ago) used that one. He was asked once by a student what karate techniques he would use if he were jumped in a bar by 3 guys. My instructor said he'd grab a bottle off the bar, a pool cue, a chair...whatever was handy, because he'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

patrick
Message: Posted by: Woland (Aug 2, 2010 12:51PM)
Paddy,

You are a wise man. I first learned that sage advice from a poem posted in a filling station off I-84 in Connecticut, about State Troopers and their responsibility to secure "their road." The station also had a note taped to the cash register, which said, "This station is protected by 2 12-gauge shotguns, 2 days a week. You guess which 2."

In 40 of the 50 states, no reason for a concealed carry permit is needed. The sheriff "shall" issue one to any law-abiding adult who meets the basic qualifications. Alaska and Arizona do not require a permit for concealed carry, but the sheriff "shall" issue one to residents who request one for use in other states.

In 7 states, the sheriff "may" issue a permit if he sees fit. In roughly half of them, obtaining such a permit is nearly impossible.

In 2 states (Wisconsin and Illinois) and the District of Columbia, there is no civilian concealed carry permit.

In Vermont, no permit for either open or concealed carry is required. There is no permit process at all, but some sheriffs will sign a "good citizen" letter for residents who think it might be useful out of state.

Woland
Message: Posted by: patrick flanagan (Aug 2, 2010 01:21PM)
Woland,
I enjoy reading your posts, whether I agree or disagree.

The fact that Jefferson was against slavery to the point of drafting those words you reference, yet, owned slaves.....I'm searching for the word....hypocracy comes to mind. So, the constitution was written using the "do as I say, but not as I do" method.

Would I have done any better in 1776? I'd like to think so, but no way to prove that one way or the other.
patrick
Message: Posted by: Woland (Aug 2, 2010 02:27PM)
Patrick,

Thank you for enjoying my comments. They are intended to entertain and instruct, but I do not expect much less require that any reader agree with everything or even anything I have to say.

I don't think that Th. Jefferson, Geo. Washington, and Geo. Mason were hypocrites. They did not create the world into which they were born, and all knew, to varying degress, that their livelihoods depended on an immoral institution that Mason wrote was poisonous to private and public life. To planters in the South, as shown in the Mississippi declarations on the necessity of secession, all of the world's wealth derived from agricultural production that they were sure could only be produced by slaves.

Washington, at least, freed all the slaves that he personally owned, at his death.

The Declaration of Independence includes a statement regarding the origin of our rights and liberty that includes all people. It was intended to include all people. The fact that it was not perfectly enacted at the time of its original promulgation does not take away from what it says, or from what it has meant, and continues to mean in our country, and for the world.

The significance of the Declaration was discussed at greater length by Abraham Lincoln during his debates with Stephen A. Douglas. Harry Jaffa wrote, "Lincoln did not appeal to the Declaration of Independence merely because it was our first and foremost founding document. It was, he said, the immortal emblem of man's humanity and the father of all moral principle because it incorporated a rational, nonarbitrary moral and political standard. The equality of man and man was a necessary inference from the inequality of man and beast — and of man and God. No one possessed of a civilized conscience can fail to feel this sympathy. The empirical evidence bears Lincoln out."

The Lincoln-Douglas debates are on line. They are well worth reading. One caveat: when you consider the level of political discourse that candidates for public office reached in this country in 1858, you may become discouraged with what we are served with today.

Woland
Message: Posted by: patrick flanagan (Aug 2, 2010 05:23PM)
Woland....discouraged? or discouraged EVEN MORE??

I, still, maintain the job of president should come with a $100,000,000/term salary. That should encourage more qualified candidates to apply.
If athletes, entertainers, CEO's can make $20,000,000 a year, surely, the leader of the free world could be compensated in like.
patrick
Message: Posted by: KirkG (Aug 2, 2010 06:59PM)
But he would have to earn it to quality to receive it.
Message: Posted by: KirkG (Aug 2, 2010 11:33PM)
Interesting fact, I just met a kids magician that carries to every show! Of course it is a requirement for his "other" job.
Message: Posted by: The great Gumbini (Aug 10, 2010 12:25AM)
Woland thank you for the information---it is good to know. I personally never carry a weapon. I do however keep an open eye on what's going on. I perform in some pretty nice places and it's mostly day time venues. I know things can happen then too but I just don't carry one. California is pretty strict. But on a personal note I still don't feel I'd carry it to a show. Almost all of my shows I'm paid up-front and in advance with a money back option if anyone feels my show was not entertaining. I've never had a problem at a show and hope it stays that way. But good luck to all who carry one---I hope you never have to use it.


Good magic to all,


Eric
Message: Posted by: Woland (Aug 10, 2010 09:54PM)
Thank you, Great Gumbini. Indeed that is always earnestly to be hoped.

Woland
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (Aug 16, 2010 03:19AM)
Perhaps Im fortunate but I've never had to carry my piece to a show yet. I know one day I should and legally I can anywhere in the state. Sad it is coming down to that. I would hate to have it mixed up in my close up container and forget it is there.
Message: Posted by: Al Angello (Aug 16, 2010 07:46AM)
"willing to resort to life threatening violence" should look good on your resume, and it is sure to help you get booked. Lots of luck cowboy
Message: Posted by: Magic_Steve (Aug 16, 2010 08:34AM)
[quote]
On 2010-08-16 04:19, Decomposed wrote:
I would hate to have it mixed up in my close up container and forget it is there.
[/quote]

Just say you do the bullet catch, LOL.
Message: Posted by: Woland (Aug 16, 2010 10:19AM)
Al,

How about, "willing to stand by helplessly and allow myself and any others to be robbed, raped, and murdered whenever any armed thugs want to do it." Does that look better to you?

Woland
Message: Posted by: Al Angello (Aug 16, 2010 10:30AM)
How about "Trigger happy magician clears out restaurant, and forces owner to close". If I were being "helplessly raped" I would call 911 like any other law abiding citizen would do.

You make me laugh
Message: Posted by: Woland (Aug 16, 2010 11:35AM)
Al,

You make me cry. By the time the police arrive on the scene, all they'll be able to do is dust for fingerprints. I'm sorry you are so cavalier about defending your own life.

Woland
Message: Posted by: todsky (Aug 16, 2010 01:32PM)
Something useful about Games Theory pertaining to gun culture. A bit like M.A.D. (Mutually Assured Destruction) with nuclear arsenals: if no one has a gun, then people are safe from gun violence, but once the genie is out of the bottle and just one person has a firearm, then many others want to be on equal footing, and thus a civil arms race ensues.
Message: Posted by: Woland (Aug 16, 2010 02:26PM)
Todsky,

That genie got out of the bottle the first time a caveman picked up a rock.

You see, in a society where there are no guns, people are not necessarily safe - those who don't carry a katana and a wakizashi, i.e. those whom the State forbids from carrying a katana and wakizashi, may be victimized by those who carry them . . . and in a society of naked men and women where there are no tools and no arms, the smaller and weaker may be vicitimized with impunity by those who are bigger and stronger.

Therefore, some would argue that the reliable repeating revolver is a social benefit and a boon to civilization, because it means --for the first time in history-- that a 5 foot tall, 98 pound woman cannot be instantly victimized by any 6 foot, 200 pound thug who wants to take her down.

That's why Mr. Colt's invention was called the "equalizer." For the first time in history, the physically weaker do not necessarily have to submit to anyone bigger or stronger than they are. That might be why, in Robert A. Heinlein's phrase, an armed society is a polite society.

Woland
Message: Posted by: lunatik (Aug 16, 2010 02:57PM)
I like Woland!!!!!
Message: Posted by: KirkG (Aug 16, 2010 04:48PM)
[quote]
On 2010-08-16 11:30, Al Angello wrote:If I were being "helplessly raped" I would call 911 like any other law abiding citizen would do.

[/quote]

Don't you mean after? I mean assuming they didn't kill you in the process.
Message: Posted by: bblumen (Aug 17, 2010 03:12PM)
[quote]
On 2010-08-16 11:30, Al Angello wrote:
How about "Trigger happy magician clears out restaurant, and forces owner to close". If I were being "helplessly raped" I would call 911 like any other law abiding citizen would do.

You make me laugh
[/quote]


When seconds count, the police are only minutes away!
Message: Posted by: Al Angello (Aug 17, 2010 03:18PM)
A WORD TO THE WISE
Taking the law into your own hands can land you behind bars, with some very unpleasant room mates. If you choose to play you must also be prepared to pay.
Message: Posted by: Whit Haydn (Aug 17, 2010 04:31PM)
[quote]
On 2010-08-16 11:30, Al Angello wrote:
How about "Trigger happy magician clears out restaurant, and forces owner to close". If I were being "helplessly raped" I would call 911 like any other law abiding citizen would do.

You make me laugh
[/quote]

If you were being helplessly raped, Al, I would suspect you'd been asking for it... ;)
Message: Posted by: Al Angello (Aug 17, 2010 05:51PM)
Whit
I was hopeing someone would catch that bad joke.
Message: Posted by: Woland (Aug 19, 2010 12:34PM)
Those who think that dialing "911" is a form of self-defense might consider the following:

According to the Washington Post, a Maryland farmer has filed suit to force the state government to renew his concealed carry permit. Maryland is a "may issue" state. He was issued a permit after an armed robber broke into his farmhouse in 2002. The State Police decided not to renew the permit last year, because they thought any danger to his life had passed.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/14/AR2010081402547.html

The article notes: "After the 2002 break-in, Woollard said, he and his family waited 2 1/2 hours for police to arrive. Cpl. Michael Hill, a Baltimore County police spokesman, said records show that the 911 call came in at 9:52 p.m. and that because of icy roads, holiday staffing and the rural location, officers did not arrive until about 11."

So there you have it. Dial 911 and invite your attacker to sit down for a nice hot cuppa while you wait an hour or two for help to arrive.

Had this farmer relied on "911," he and his family would be as dead as Herb Clutter and his family.

Woland
Message: Posted by: Al Angello (Aug 19, 2010 01:46PM)
Woland
Send me your next address, and I'll bake you a cake with a saw in it hot shot. LOL
Message: Posted by: Woland (Aug 19, 2010 04:14PM)
Dear Al,

Thank you for your concern and consideration.

Below is another news story for you to think about.

"No charges were filed against Gabbard."


Woland

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20100818/NEWS010702/8190311/1167/NEWS/Murder-is-the-charge-with-a-twist

HAMILTON - In an unusual twist, a home-invasion robbery suspect faces a murder charge - even though another man fired the shots that killed his alleged accomplice.

"But for the home invasion, his buddy would have never been killed," Butler County Prosecutor Robin Piper said Wednesday, explaining the indictment of John Eric Robinson, 23, who has listed addresses in Lebanon and Hamilton. "The only reason the trigger got pulled was because they were involved in a robbery."

A Butler County grand jury indicted Robinson on three charges, including murder, in the Aug. 8 incident in which Hanover Township resident Gregory K. Gabbard "was lawfully defending his property" and fired at two intruders, killing one.

Steven Deshaun Davis, 23, of Middletown, died; Robinson was wounded.

No charges were filed against Gabbard.

Under the "castle doctrine" of Ohio law, a homeowner or occupant has the right to defend himself and his property against intruders, Piper said, adding, "the homeowner or resident does not have to nicely and neatly decide how much force is reasonable to defend himself and his property."

Meanwhile, Ohio's "felony murder" law holds a person accountable for a death that occurs during another violent felony, such as robbery, Piper said.

Gabbard told a 911 dispatcher that two masked intruders entered his Beissinger Road home, awakened him and demanded money. One of the men was armed with a gun and pistol-whipped him. Gabbard was able to get a gun, and shot both intruders multiple times.
Message: Posted by: patrick flanagan (Aug 19, 2010 04:28PM)
I want Woland to live next door to me!!!!
Message: Posted by: Woland (Aug 19, 2010 04:44PM)
May I apologize for referring to the late Mr. Herbert Clutter as "Herb." He was not personally known to me, and the use of that nickname was presumptuous and disrespectful.

Woland
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (Aug 24, 2010 08:46AM)
[quote]
On 2010-08-16 12:35, Woland wrote:
Al,

You make me cry. By the time the police arrive on the scene, all they'll be able to do is dust for fingerprints. I'm sorry you are so cavalier about defending your own life.

Woland
[/quote]

Come now WOland. They cannot be everywhere all the time now. :cool:
Message: Posted by: todsky (Aug 24, 2010 09:04AM)
In Montreal, with a population of 2 million, we have about 75 murders each year, mostly drug and gang related. No one carries guns here, except the police. Pretty much the same in Toronto, I believe.
Message: Posted by: ropeadope (Aug 24, 2010 11:12AM)
Hit him (or her, if you`re a wuss) with one of those new Fingertip Flashers & while they are blind & confused run like h--l!

Have fun,
John
Message: Posted by: The Mighty Fool (Aug 24, 2010 11:02PM)
My, people have a lot to say here!

Let's see....

He who lives by the sword.....dies by the gun!

When people say that a gun in your house or car is "100 times more likely to be used against you rather than by you" what theyre basing it on is simple long-term probability: Since youre in the house 7 days a week for several hours, and a thief is only in it mabye one hour his whole life....it's simply more probable that the gun will be shot at YOU than at the thief. But on SHORT-term probability: If a thief breaks into your home and YOU know where the gun is whereas HE does not.....that changes the probability to about 500-to-1 in YOUR favor.

Europe often touts the fact that they do not allow personal firearms as the reason they have less shooting deaths than the U.S. Actually, they have just as many SHOOTINGS as we do, but we have more shooting DEATHS because Americans are better shots. :D

Seriously though....no personal firearms in Europe? Wimps. No wonder we've taken on their 2 toughest nations (UK & Germany) twice each & clobbered them.

AS for bringing a loaded gun to a kid's show....are you OUT of your MIND?? That would be totally innapropriate. I wouldnt even bring a tazer, or anything which could (However unlikely) somehow end up being accidentaly used by or on the children. If you feel youre going to be in an unsafe area, then I would reccomend wearing protection under your clothes. A ribbed undershirt, shinguards, kneegaurds, a cup, and mabye kevlar gloves.
Message: Posted by: bobn3 (Aug 25, 2010 09:19AM)
Looking at this thread is like watching Fox News. Granted, people should have the right to defend themselves in their homes. I am wondering how in the world that this is even remotely germaine to going to perform at a gig.

The odds of being asked to perform (especially a children's show) in an area where you need to go "packing" are extremely remote. In the miniscule chance that you are asked to perform in such a dangerous area...if you are stupid enough to go, then you are on your own. Also, think of the legal consequences. You enter someone else's abode armed, and shoot someone there. The outcome would not be pretty (for you).

I own handguns (2 Sig Sauers), but would never dream of taking them to a show.

Bob Phillips
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Aug 25, 2010 12:46PM)
[quote]
On 2010-08-19 17:44, Woland wrote:
May I apologize for referring to the late Mr. Herbert Clutter as "Herb." He was not personally known to me, and the use of that nickname was presumptuous and disrespectful.

Woland
[/quote]

That name jogs my mind about the horrible crime that resulted in Capote's book. About 10 years later the Manson family once again reminded us that if we depend on the law of averages for our defense some of us will be very disappointed.

To the question, I would not carry to a gig. I must admit, however, that concealed carry provides, for me, access to places and peace of mind I could not get from the protection the police are able to provide.

Hopefully it is just this one guy's poor attitude, but for me the world has, sadly, gotten much colder.

Enjoy your reasoned posts, Woland...

Jim

p.s.- Derrick: Just a thought, but I have started mixing a bit of pitching with my busking and magic. It is amazing what, and how much, you can sell at a gig! Perhaps pitch a kit with (a) simple instructions, (b) ten balloons, and even perhaps (c) one of those itty-bitty pumps - all in a zip lock. Bet you could sell one to every one who is disappointed and do pretty well. Plus, no mad guy, maybe...
Message: Posted by: derrick (Aug 25, 2010 02:05PM)
Mandarin, I don't want to create a reason to carry and I think trying and sell an already mad person a bag of ten balloons and a pump to make his/her own balloon animals would do just that. In the amount of time it would take to do this, I could have made the balloon figure. I'm not talking about busking but simply trying to leave a two or three hour gig in a reasonable amount of time after your time is up.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Aug 25, 2010 05:54PM)
Well, I didn't say it was a good idea, just a thought... good luck, derrick.
Message: Posted by: Woland (Aug 25, 2010 09:27PM)
Mandarin - Jim -

Thank you for your kind comments. I have always appreciated your thoughtful and useful posts on many subjects here at The Magic Café.

I don't think that I have recommended that anyone carry or not carry a weapon. If in the course of responding to a previous post, I have appeared to advocate gun toting, I apologize. I agree that each individual should consider whether to carry a firearm or not himself or herself, and come to his or her own conclusions. I do think the decision should be made on a rational basis, however, and not be overly influenced by what Colonel Cooper termed "hoplophobia."

I have tried to provide factually correct descriptions of what is involved in obtaining a concealed carry permit in our various states, and historically correct accounts of what has happened in jurisdictions that either have permitted law abiding citizens to arm themselves for their own defense, or have forbidden them from doing so.

Residents of the United States and of the United Kingdom were perfectly free to carry handguns without any thought of permits or licenses until the latter part of the 19th century in the US, and the early part of the 20th century in Britain. It would have been assumed in most parts of the United States and in Britain, during the Victorian and Edwardian eras, that most adult men would gone about armed at any time they thought it prudent to do so. The first "gun control" laws in the United States were passed during the Jim Crow era to disarm Negroes. In Britain, the original intention of the earliest "gun control" laws was to disarm the laboring classes.

I have also tried to remind our readers, Americans and others, that the Constitution does not give us any rights, but rather instructs the federal government to respect the unalienable rights with which our Creator endowed us.

I will repeat that the purpose of carrying a handgun should not be conceived of a way to make it safe, or if not safe then merely somewhat safer, to visit dangerous areas. A handgun would be a poor choice for that purpose. Long guns are much more accurate and effective that short guns. If you knew you were going into a dangerous area, a rifle or a shotgun would be a much better choice. My choice, as a civilian, would be to avoid such a dangerous area in the first place. The purpose of carrying a handgun is to have at least some sort of equalizer available in a situation that you had previously assumed would be safe. The portability of a handgun makes it possible to have one handy, as it were, at all times.

A firearm is quite evidently a dangerous instrument. It would be useless if that were not true. But there are many other instruments we use in daily life that are equally dangerous or more dangerous.

At my age, and due to my physical infirmities, without a firearm, I would probably not be able to defend myself against even one attacker without incurring severe injuries. It is likely that in an unarmed brawl, I would be killed or crippled. Experience has shown me that submitting to a miscreant who even threatens you with violence is unlikely to provide a reasonable assurance that you will not be injured or killed anyway. I do not choose to submit to evil, and I have therefore prepared accordingly. I am grateful for the life-saving, civil-peace-enhancing, polite-behavior-promoting technology provided to me by Samuel Colt, Horace Smith, Daniel Wesson, and the incomparable John Moses Browning.

Woland
Message: Posted by: daffydoug (Sep 1, 2010 06:02PM)
In all my years, it never occurred to me that the world is in such sad shape that it has become necessary for a magician to pack a gun.

But I guess with the many stories you hear on the news everyday, it's probably something I should consider.

I never shot a weapon, so I would need training.

Wait. I take that back, I did get M16 training in Boot Camp decades ago, but that was so long ago, I'm sure I don't remember a thing about how to do it.
Message: Posted by: Rafael The Master Hypnotist (Sep 1, 2010 11:18PM)
Are you sure he is not the guy behind the Masked Magician...Sorry I couldn't help it
Message: Posted by: gaddy (Sep 2, 2010 04:17AM)
[quote]
On 2010-09-01 19:02, daffydoug wrote:
In all my years, it never occurred to me that the world is in such sad shape that it has become necessary for a magician to pack a gun.

But I guess with the many stories you hear on the news everyday, it's probably something I should consider.

I never shot a weapon, so I would need training.

Wait. I take that back, I did get M16 training in Boot Camp decades ago, but that was so long ago, I'm sure I don't remember a thing about how to do it.
[/quote] I'm sure there are at least a couple of guys on this thread who just can't wait to give you a lot of useless opinions and advice...
Message: Posted by: daffydoug (Sep 2, 2010 11:11AM)
As far as how to fire a weapon? I would be willing to hear it, but the only way to learn would be hands on. And that was not meant as a pun.

Purchasing and learning to fire a weapon would really represent a major change in my life attitude. Or even more accurately, my life's perspective.
Message: Posted by: KirkG (Sep 5, 2010 02:02PM)
Gaddy,

I am glad you were the first. :)
Message: Posted by: Woland (Sep 14, 2010 01:07PM)
In 2009, American private citizens purchased a total of 14 million firearms -- more than the 21 largest armies in the world combined. Americans also purchased 14 billion rounds of ammunition last year. Recognition of the right to carry a firearm is steadily increasing across the United States -- and in Alaska, Arizona, and Vermont, no special permit of any kind is required of a law-abiding citizen who wishes to go armed.

To compound what some would see as a dangerous situation, unemployment is up to levels unimagined since the end of the Second World War. The real estate market is in a state of near collapse.

And crime? According to the FBI 2009 statistics, crime is way down. Murder is down 7%. Armed robbery is down 8%. Rape is down almost 3%.

Robert Heinlein was right: an armed society is a polite society.

Although it looks like more women need to get out to the range and sign up for a concealed carry class.

Respectfully submitted,

Woland

PS No need to explain statistical correlation to me. I know that these numbers do not "prove" that more guns mean less crime. But they do prove that more guns do not mean more mayhem.
Message: Posted by: The Mighty Fool (Sep 14, 2010 10:46PM)
There's a cartoon (Hagar the Horrible) in which Hagr's wife comments on how calm & peaceful their neihborhood is, and then the scene zooms out showing lots of people walking around, all armed to the teeth, and Hagar replie "Of course! Who'd be dumb enough to start a fight in this neighborhood?"
Message: Posted by: Chance (Sep 16, 2010 01:03AM)
[quote]
On 2010-02-24 14:57, derrick wrote:
Oh, and Christopher - it was no mistake. Same isle and eye contact.
[/quote]

Derrick, I guess it never occurred to you or we wouldn't be here writing about it, but at this point (while being stalked in the home store) I would have gone directly up to the guy and said, "Hey, sorry about having to ditch like that, but where's your kid now? I've got some balloons here burning a hole in my pocket!", etc. I'm pretty sure that deflection and self-deprecation gets better results than running for the nearest gun store.
Message: Posted by: jugglestruck (Sep 18, 2010 09:22AM)
[quote]
On 2010-09-14 14:07, Woland wrote:
In 2009, American private citizens purchased a total of 14 million firearms -- more than the 21 largest armies in the world combined. Americans also purchased 14 billion rounds of ammunition last year. Recognition of the right to carry a firearm is steadily increasing across the United States -- and in Alaska, Arizona, and Vermont, no special permit of any kind is required of a law-abiding citizen who wishes to go armed.

To compound what some would see as a dangerous situation, unemployment is up to levels unimagined since the end of the Second World War. The real estate market is in a state of near collapse.

And crime? According to the FBI 2009 statistics, crime is way down. Murder is down 7%. Armed robbery is down 8%. Rape is down almost 3%.

Robert Heinlein was right: an armed society is a polite society.

Although it looks like more women need to get out to the range and sign up for a concealed carry class.

Respectfully submitted,

Woland

PS No need to explain statistical correlation to me. I know that these numbers do not "prove" that more guns mean less crime. But they do prove that more guns do not mean more mayhem.
[/quote]

Interesting point but I would respectfully suggest a different outcome.
When you say "But they (the statistics)do prove that more guns do not mean more mayhem" my response would be at this time in history, no, but how will it affect us in three, five, ten or twenty years from now?
As a race we can be very short sighted in what is good for the species long term, look at the pollution problems we have now which we turned a blind eye to thirty years ago.
I can not say what the future holds regarding guns but I do know that arming civilians to the teeth now strikes me as a dangerous long term strategy and we do so at our peril.
Message: Posted by: Woland (Sep 19, 2010 08:34AM)
Dear Jugglestruck,

American civilians have been "armed to the teeth" for 4 centuries. In 2009, Americans bought more firearms than are in the inventories of the 21 largest armies in the world. The total number of firearms in private hands in the United States is an order of magnitude larger than that -- there are at least 300 million firearms in the hands of civilians in the United States. Only an infinitesimal fraction of those firearms are used by criminals for nefarious purposes.

And until the middle of the 20th century, most Britons who could afford to buy a firearm were armed, as well. Well into the Edwardian era (read your Conan Doyle), doctors, lawyers, and Anglican divines commonly carried revolvers.

In peaceful Switzerland, every adult man who is enrolled in the armed services -and that is most men between the ages of 18 and 45- is required to keep at home a fully automatic battle rifle and at least 200 rounds of ammunition. (Depending on their assignments, some may also keep other ordnance, including mines and grenades at home. The Swiss intend to defend their freedom at a moment's notice.)

We have seen in the United States, over the past decade, that with increasing public and legal support for the right to carry a concealed firearm, that violent crime is steadily diminishing.

The widespread distribution of firearms is seen by most people on this side of the Atlantic as a guarantee both of their personal security and of the security of our freedoms, and of our Constitutional governmental regime or "ordered liberty." I don't think another 30 years will change that.

Woland
Message: Posted by: jugglestruck (Sep 19, 2010 01:10PM)
Hi Woland,

Thank you for your response and I appreciate your point.
I am just going away for the week so I will have to keep this brief.
I think the whole issue of guns runs on far too many levels than is appropriate for discussion on the Café (we have already stumbled a fair way off topic I feel) so I suggest we draw an amicable line under this as neither of us can foresee the future (although I did claim to at a wedding last night!).

Even though I have taken issue with your posts I have enjoyed reading them and they have given me food for thought.

Best wishes,

Luke
Message: Posted by: Woland (Sep 19, 2010 04:47PM)
Thank you, Luke, for your kind response. This discussion might have been moved to another forum, but we keep circling back to the original question, whether a magician should carry a firearm to an engagement.

I am not a professional magician, so I have not had to face that dilemma. And I would not presume to offer advice on firearms to professional or amateur magicians.

For me, it is a matter of civic responsibility. There have been too many occasions when lives were needlessly surrendered to miscreants because someone did not carry a weapon that day, despite being duly permitted.

I carry everywhere that it is legally permitted. It has become as natural to me as wearing my clothes. In fact, I generally wear a firearm in my own house. Although I keep loaded firearms in closets both upstairs and downstairs, they are shut behind closets, and I might not be able to get to one in a moment of dire need. Better to be safe than sorry.

Woland
Message: Posted by: derrick (Sep 20, 2010 10:13AM)
Chance,

For one, I didn't have a pocket full of balloons and asking the guy to walk out to my car with me was the furthest thing from my mind. I was surprised and caught off guard, thus the reason for this somewhat knee jerk post.

As with any event, it is easy to go back and rewrite one's actions to better suit the situation. All I can do at this point is live today and do my best to adjust my behavior so hopefully I don't repeat yesterdays mistakes.

For example, while much of this has been very good food for thought and even entertaining at times, I promise to never post anything again about guns if those in charge will just put an end this thread.
Message: Posted by: Jon Hackett (Sep 20, 2010 10:38AM)
Your a funny guy Woland, of coarse! What else would one do when there is a maniac with a gun holding up the coffee shop? Run on in there! And draw your gun!

Hey that's not a gun!

THIS is a gun!

I do enjoy reading your posts on this thread, they are among the funniest things I have read on the Café.

JH
Message: Posted by: Tim Dowd (Sep 20, 2010 12:23PM)
I promised never to post in this thread again... BUT
I vote to close it.

Anyone second that?
Message: Posted by: Woland (Sep 20, 2010 01:15PM)
Jon,

I'm pleased that you enjoy your reading here.

Tim,

Why does it bother you to leave this thread open?

Are you so afraid of the facts, or of someone else's differeing point of view?

If you don't like the subject, isn't it a simple matter just to skip over the topic?

Woland
Message: Posted by: imgic (Oct 2, 2010 08:09PM)
While I've been browsing this thread...refrained from posting on it until I saw this today...

I neither support or dispute either position...just uploading a cartoon.
Message: Posted by: DavinSimone (Oct 29, 2010 08:04AM)
I have a concealed carry permit and carry almost any time I leave the house. Never had to shoot anyone yet. Hope I never have to. I wish more people made their personal safety their own responsibility but to each their own.

Funny story about that though...

I have stopped carrying to lectures though. I had a sub compact on my inside the waist holster located at the 5 o clock position. Jonathan Pendragon called me up to show people how to properly posture themselves with a pull device on their back. Thought for sure that he and the rest of the audience were going to get a big eye full of it but my shirt never moved the wrong way on it. Not that it would have been illegal or anything, just might have made some of the people a little unnecessary uncomfortable.
Message: Posted by: Magician Toronto (Nov 11, 2010 04:59PM)
Learn some Krav maga. It is the best protection you can get. I once had a guy say that magicians were evil and they had to be killed. I had no choice but to defend myself. Can't get into the rest of the details but all I can say is that Krav Maga saved my life.



http://www.MagicianToronto.com
Message: Posted by: Jon Hackett (Nov 12, 2010 03:29AM)
Israeli Special forces developed the currently used Krav Maga I am told. I like the fact that it is not a martial art, but is a way to stop yourself getting killed (essentially) and hopefully not kill anyone else in the process.

I do not understand why anyone would want to live in a place where they need to carry a gun to feel safe. I mean, many of you have and are bringing up families, and yet YOU do not feel safe enough to walk around un-armed.

What is next? Arm your eight year old daughters?

If you are a target, they are, you cannot be there all the time.

I genuinely feel, if you feel so threatened and un-safe that you need to walk around armed, you are not living, you are surviving.

I feel very sorry for you.

But more importantly, I implore you to move, to LIVE a happy life.

Not one of fear, not one of violence, not one of constant trepidation.

Good day gentlemen.

Jon Hackett
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Nov 13, 2010 04:55PM)
We each have our opinion, Jon, and I respect yours.

I choose not to trust the law of averages. If you can tell me of a where I DO NOT need to carry a gun to feel safe, I would be most interested. If you have never been the victim of a home invasion, then don't bother to tell me...
Message: Posted by: Jon Hackett (Nov 14, 2010 07:01AM)
So you don't want to know were you can live in the world with-out fear of HOME INVASION?


As you said to each his own.

Good day gentlemen!

Jon Hackett
Message: Posted by: T_C_Magic (Nov 14, 2010 02:24PM)
People like Jon live in a fantasy world.
Message: Posted by: Jon Hackett (Nov 15, 2010 02:56AM)
Not fantasy, with out fear.

Good day,

Jon Hackett
Message: Posted by: Ivan Nikolayevich Ponyryov (Nov 16, 2010 10:50AM)
Jon,

Krav Maga teaches a lot of kill moves actually, especially if your dealing with multiple attackers with weapons. Think Jason Bourne without the impossible jumps through windows etc.

It was developed and is refined in Israel and used by Israeli security forces.

It will get you fit and prepared to kick the crap out of people IF you have to. If you get a good trainer they will teach you a mindset. It deals with the psychology behind attacks and drills in actions so you can immobilise threats as effectively as possible.

I agree with you about not living out of fear, I wouldn't carry a concealed weapon even if it was legal to do so, but in the US something like 25% of adults or adult males(?) own a gun of some sort. It is a whole different culture.

I am sure if any of you guys came over here for a while you wouldn't see much need to carry a gun here (Not saying the UK is better, just look at our current government-increasingly making George Bush look like Santa).

I see that is hard to see an alternative when your country has a firmly entrenched gun culture.

Your more likely to get murdered by someone you know or are related to, and I doubt a gun will save you from that in most instances.

Mr. Mystoffelees buddhist temples are generally good, you can check your gun at the door, great food too.

IN CONCLUSION. This is a magic forum guys, shouldn't the only discussion on here be about the best way to catch bullets not fire them? At the very least why don't we keep it to practical points, and not debates over how supposedly better Europe is because we generally have tighter gun laws. GUNS DON'T KILL PEOPLE, PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE and we can't ban those crazy hairless chimps! Even if we are frequently stupid.

Matt.

http://www.astonisher.net
Message: Posted by: Andrew Zuber (Nov 16, 2010 11:35AM)
I must say, having been born and raised in the U.S. and now living in the U.K., it sure is interesting to see the lack crimes committed with guns in the news each day.

I just can't imagine carrying a gun to a lecture, a performance or a gig. Maybe if I lived in a high crime area - then again I lived and worked in Los Angeles and never had the need (or felt the need) for one. Unlike most Americans though, I am extremely anti-gun and think they should be completely illegal, so I suppose I'm biased on this topic.
Message: Posted by: mota (Nov 16, 2010 02:48PM)
Thought...when I came to Dallas it was one of the most dangerous cities in the country. Now it is one of the safest. What changed? Guns were always here.

What changed was how they counted crimes. That's it. It is an illusion.

I went to a neighborhood watch the other day where two police officers of a local suburb spoke. It was interesting on many levels but what matters here is what they told me...

If you do not wish to carry a gun the next best weapon is mace. The key is you can disable someone before they can get close enough to grab you. The police mentioned this over and over...distance matters. No matter what your fighting art if someone can reach you they can get lucky and you lose.

The other tip he gave was to buy your mace from police supply stores. It is stronger than regular mace at retail outlets.

Additionally you can get a large mace with a range of 20 feet for your home protection. It is inexpensive, effective protection.

The discussion of firearms at this meeting was quite a bit different...but that is another story. To put it briefly, if you don't wish to carry a gun it isn't a big jump down in effectiveness to use mace.

As I said, this comes straight from city cops who work the mean streets for a living.
Message: Posted by: M Sini (Dec 3, 2010 09:06AM)
While I'm sure the last thing anyone wants to see is this topic brought back to the top of the list, I thought this article had some relevance.




http://itricks.com/news/2010/12/magician-shot-in-head-outside-of-gig-in-serious-condidtion/
Message: Posted by: Acecardician (Dec 9, 2010 09:27PM)
[quote]
On 2010-12-03 10:06, M Sini wrote:
While I'm sure the last thing anyone wants to see is this topic brought back to the top of the list, I thought this article had some relevance.




http://itricks.com/news/2010/12/magician-shot-in-head-outside-of-gig-in-serious-condidtion/
[/quote]

All the more reason to carry protection. I was talking to Dick Oslund today, and out of the blue he said a heavy set of Chinese Sticks are good protection. General Grant Brass Chinese Sticks would work great.

ACE
Message: Posted by: RJ Hunt (Dec 11, 2010 06:18PM)
CWP holding...NRA loving...magician here...I carry protection 24/7, even though I'm 6'5" 290 LBS and retired from the NFL, I'm still no match for a bullet so I want to at least keep myself on even ground.

My thoughts and prayers to Eric and his family for a speedy recovery...
Message: Posted by: EscapeMaster (Dec 12, 2010 08:22AM)
>How many other Europeans are shaking their heads in silent wonder?

Me for one.

Really shocked by this.

Glad I don't live in the 'free' country.
Message: Posted by: gaddy (Dec 13, 2010 01:48AM)
[quote]
On 2010-12-11 19:18, Sleightly_Dangerous wrote:
CWP holding...NRA loving...magician here...I carry protection 24/7, even though I'm 6'5" 290 LBS and retired from the NFL, I'm still no match for a bullet so I want to at least keep myself on even ground.

My thoughts and prayers to Eric and his family for a speedy recovery...
[/quote]24/7 huh? Do you have a special holster sewn into your pyjamas?
Message: Posted by: RJ Hunt (Dec 13, 2010 02:19AM)
[quote]
On 2010-12-13 02:48, gaddy wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-12-11 19:18, Sleightly_Dangerous wrote:
CWP holding...NRA loving...magician here...I carry protection 24/7, even though I'm 6'5" 290 LBS and retired from the NFL, I'm still no match for a bullet so I want to at least keep myself on even ground.

My thoughts and prayers to Eric and his family for a speedy recovery...
[/quote]24/7 huh? Do you have a special holster sewn into your pyjamas?
[/quote]

.45 Under my mattress...I tried the PJ's thing and really uncomfortable...LOL
Message: Posted by: Acecardician (Dec 27, 2010 04:51PM)
[quote]
On 2010-12-12 09:22, EscapeMaster wrote:
>How many other Europeans are shaking their heads in silent wonder?

Me for one.

Really shocked by this.

Glad I don't live in the 'free' country.
[/quote]

How come it is okay for Europeans and other "foreigners" to bash the USA, and if an American tries to bash another country, they are not "politically correct"? It sounds like a double standard to me.
At the last SAM(society of AMERICAN magicians) a magician(originally not USA born) who is famous and lives in this country and reaps the benefits of living here, was bashing Americans. And it was not in jest, I was standing next to him and heard him say it under his breath. He should go back to where ever he was born and give back all the American money he has made. I say "love it or leave it"!

ACE
Message: Posted by: gaddy (Dec 27, 2010 06:22PM)
I rag on the canooks all the time, what are you taking about?

How come we Americans are always so quick to play the victims?

I say this (partly) in jest...
Message: Posted by: RJ Hunt (Dec 28, 2010 01:32AM)
Just remember if it was not for this "Free" country...Most of Europe would be speaking German...:)
Message: Posted by: Lawrence O (Dec 28, 2010 05:51AM)
Your nationalistic reaction makes you wrong on several accounts, Europe would not be speaking German, it would be speaking Russian (even if I'm very and deeply grateful to the boys who did risk or lose their life in western Europe, Germany was essentially defeated at the cost of 27 million Russian people) Now you may also remember that this "Free country" that I love -to the point that most of my children are living there and one of them is American- , without Europe would not even be a "country" at all: ever heard of the battle of Yorktown where George Washington or any of the Founding Fathers wasn't even present. It's always touchy to call on gratitude with long time friends to escape justified criticism, because, over time, major gestures have gone back and forth. If you really feel friendly to someone it means that you accept his critics and allow him to disagree with you on some topics: otherwise it's not a friend, it's a just a submissive flatterer.

It's a fact that Europeans are not systematically afraid for their police force (perceived as public servants) because European police forces don't have systematically to be afraid for armed citizen. Naturally there are exceptions to every rule but this is a fair statement in most western European countries.
Message: Posted by: foolsnobody (Dec 29, 2010 01:07AM)
There is absolutely nothing wrong with carrying condoms to a gig. After all, you might get lucky! Watch out you don't get shot by a jealous husband though! Hahahah! What? The thread was about *guns*??? (Best Emily Litella voice) *"Never mind!"*
Message: Posted by: RJ Hunt (Dec 29, 2010 02:25AM)
Lawrence, Good points and message received...sometimes my emotions get the better of me...
Message: Posted by: djurmann (Dec 29, 2010 02:53PM)
Protection suggestions (and I speak as a European).

If you want to carry a weapon then know how to use it and use it under stress. That way you will be effective and not be on the receiving end of your item.

If you know how to use it, make sure you don't see every problem as requiring it. That way you will stay with a clear conscience and out of jail.

If you don't know HOW and IF to use the weapon then maybe leave it at home/ in the bag?
Message: Posted by: gaddy (Jan 5, 2011 03:26PM)
I want to reiterate something I said much earlier in this "conversation". As a street performer I find it HIGHLY amusing that such a discussion is to be had about bringing loaded guns into a gig in which you have been paid to perform. I have been in several situations where the threat of physical violence loomed quite large, and looking back I can honestly say that a gun in the scenario would only have made things much, MUCH worse...

Truly the height of absurdity that has ever been reached on this forum (of course I understand that most of the dialog here is just numerous people "saber rattling" on this side of the old 2nd amendment argument or the other)...
Message: Posted by: gaddy (Jan 5, 2011 03:30PM)
A huge part of me wishes I hadn't written the last post! Sleeping dogs and all that...

LOL!
Message: Posted by: jugglestruck (Jan 6, 2011 09:43AM)
Maybe we can re-name the thread and give it a different slant, how about;
Do soldiers carry Chop Cups in battle?
Message: Posted by: derrick (Jan 6, 2011 03:22PM)
[quote]
On 2011-01-05 16:30, gaddy wrote:
A huge part of me wishes I hadn't written the last post! Sleeping dogs and all that...

LOL!
[/quote]

Now you know how I feel.
Message: Posted by: Acecardician (Jan 23, 2011 10:59PM)
I have been very entertained my this thread.

I love reading both sides of this.

Of course the power of our minds and speech and reasoning "should" be able to get us out of trouble.
I have gotten out of trouble many many times with my quick wit, and mind, a a trick.

But depending on the circumstances, it is a good idea to have a back up plan.

It is also a good idea to evaluate a situation, and try to avoid getting in it in the first place.
As I am getting older, I am "seeing with my mind" things I have not seen before, and and sense more things and try to stay away from any potential hazards.

But I live in NEW ORLEANS.

So I have to be extra careful.

Our new mayor put a cop on almost every corner, and crime is down.
But I work a lot in the "zone" and a lot of my co-workers are "models".

So I still carry 100%
latex, because you never know when one of those ladies of the night might give you something.

ACE :banana:
Message: Posted by: MagicJuggler (Jan 24, 2011 04:53AM)
Don't you just love it when people resurrect old flame wars?
Message: Posted by: HerraTaikuri (Jan 24, 2011 11:17AM)
What good would a gun do if someone threated you on a gig? If someone attacks you from closer than say 15m (and I find it unlikely that someone would) you would have really hard time to pull a gun from a holster, (and even harder from your bag or some concealed holster etc) aiming and firing (excluding the need maybe to remove safety etc first) before the attacker would reach you and beat the ¤¤¤¤ out of you. Tested in real life (not by me though) and that's why I stick to martial arts.
Message: Posted by: Acecardician (Jan 25, 2011 01:48AM)
I am so glad I brought my protection tonight: latex (a bag of 260 animals balloons).
The Alcohol Vendors and distributors are in town.
It was a gig for Red Bull, and they had models literally wearing nothing but Wings(red bull gives you wings!)
All the gentlemen at the gig wanted me to show the tricks to to ladies, as it made good opening conversation so they could talk to them. So I was very polite and did my thing.

Anyway, my lips are sealed...

ACE :dance:
Message: Posted by: todsky (Jan 25, 2011 05:42PM)
Interesting article on how the NRA has suppressed government studies on gun violence:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/26/us/26guns.html?_r=1&hp
Message: Posted by: Woland (Jan 26, 2011 06:09AM)
In every State that has adopted a "shall issue" law, under which the law enforcement authorities (usually the High Sheriff of the County) are required to issue a concealed carry permit to any law-abiding adult citizen who meets certain very basic qualifications, (38 States at last count), violent crimes against persons are significantly down. The highest murder rates in the United States are in urban areas of States that have severe and strict gun control laws. There are a lot of reasons for that, way too controversial to discuss here, but the actual statistics, broken down in demographic detail, are worthy of consideration.

It is clear, however, that a disarmed, helpless citizenry is an invitation to miscreants, bullies, thugs, and criminals.

The police are not there to protect you from a specific crime. They are there to protect the community in general from crime, and they do that by apprehending criminals after the fact. When you call 911, they have no liability if they don't get there until it is too late. Help that is only minutes away does you no good when death is seconds away.

HerraTaikuri is absolutely correct about the very short time period available for a reaction. A man with a knife can get from 20 or 30 feet away from you to "bad breath distance" in 2 seconds. That's why a double-action revolver carried in your pocket is a better solution, in my humble opinion, than a semi-automatic. Being inherently safe, a revolver has no safety to fumble with, and if you carry it with an empty chamber (as Israelis are trained to do, incidentally, and they have some experience of dealing with motivated attackers) you don't have to worry about racking the slide. Since it is carried in your pocket, you can unobtrusively and non-threateningly have your hand on it as soon as you become concerned about the possibility of a social engagement. (Of course that won't leave very much room for cards, coins, or sponge balls.)

Woland

PS Lawrence O, you are right about Russian domination of Western Europe absent Anglo-American involvement in WWII, and the figure of 25 to 27 million Soviet deaths in the Second World War is often cited, but rests on limited documentation, and probably includes millions who were killed not by Germans but by Stalin's henchmen.
Message: Posted by: jugglestruck (Jan 26, 2011 09:13AM)
[quote]
On 2011-01-05 16:30, gaddy wrote:
A huge part of me wishes I hadn't written the last post! Sleeping dogs and all that...

LOL!
[/quote]

Too late now mate!