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Topic: NFW, 4 joker count
Message: Posted by: DATMagic (Apr 22, 2010 04:51PM)
Guys I just got NFW and can't figure out the instructions on how to show 4 jokers. Anyone know of a video or what the count is named so I can try to find it in a book.
Message: Posted by: ejohn (Apr 22, 2010 05:52PM)
Suggest substituting the Flustration count, showing four face-down Jokers. Then, as you patter about how there are different ways to turn cards over, you can position the cards so that you can then show all four turning over one by one, followed by the change into Aces. If you need more help, PM me. (I'll be away this weekend.) John
Message: Posted by: TonyPorter (Apr 23, 2010 12:14AM)
Hamman count.
Message: Posted by: jimmyj (Apr 23, 2010 02:00PM)
Hello,
Follow the link below. I use the suggestions put forth by prawn-head, about a handling of Mark Farrars, with the extra Joker.
Thought I'd mention it.
Jim

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=57185&forum=2
Message: Posted by: Lawrence O (Apr 24, 2010 02:14PM)
I ran a Thread on card counts with a different handling and free video support

You should be able to find a solution to your problem there
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=351263&forum=37&112

From your question I would say that the best count for you is a very simple one with an impressive name: Daryl's Mexican Turnover Top Change Second Deal (you can see it either in his Three Card Monte DVD or in his Encyclopedia of Card Sleights)

Another one would be Vallarino's Rumba count (a bit flashy to my taste, but it does the job)
Message: Posted by: goochelloog (Apr 24, 2010 05:19PM)
Ma by the Xerox count by Eddy Taytelbaum ?

I will put it on youtube if you like
Message: Posted by: Vlad_77 (Apr 24, 2010 06:09PM)
[quote]
On 2010-04-24 18:19, goochelloog wrote:
Ma by the Xerox count by Eddy Taytelbaum ?

I will put it on youtube if you like
[/quote]
PLEASE tell me you are NOT going to EXPOSE a move??????? The OP has been given PLENTY of options to research, and IMHO, offering to expose a move on YouTube is rather unethical. It is NOT "your" move to expose.

Ahimsa,
Vlad
Message: Posted by: DATMagic (Apr 24, 2010 07:04PM)
Goochellog,

Although I would love to be able to see a detailed video of the correct finger placement and mechanics of the count, I fully agree with Vlad about keeping with the principals of the Café for not revealing our secrets. But sincere thanks for your effort to help.

David
Message: Posted by: DATMagic (Apr 25, 2010 06:10PM)
Thanks for everyone's help. After reviewing a few of Bro. Hamman's tapes, reading the instructions several more times, and developing a timing- my NFW routine is well on it's way to render the response that bears the tricks name.
David
Message: Posted by: Lawrence O (Apr 26, 2010 08:48AM)
[quote]
On 2010-04-24 19:09, Vlad_77 wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-04-24 18:19, goochelloog wrote:
Ma by the Xerox count by Eddy Taytelbaum ?

I will put it on youtube if you like
[/quote]
PLEASE tell me you are NOT going to EXPOSE a move??????? The OP has been given PLENTY of options to research, and IMHO, offering to expose a move on YouTube is rather unethical. It is NOT "your" move to expose.

Ahimsa,
Vlad
[/quote]

You can however put it on "Vimeo" with an access code and release that code in the Secret Sessions. I agree however that putting Eddy Taytelbaum's count (which requires a table) on Youtube is criminal.
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Apr 29, 2010 09:29AM)
My personal favorite is Lenart Green's Sweed count. you canuse the spectators hands instead of a table
vinny
Message: Posted by: MueCard (Jun 13, 2010 05:32AM)
Has anybody thought of showing four regular Jokers out of the deck and exchange them to the NFW set?
Message: Posted by: joseph (Jun 13, 2010 05:54AM)
I think the Orion count can also be used here...
Message: Posted by: Russell Davidson (Jun 14, 2010 08:17AM)
I wonder how many of you suggesting these counts own NFW? Owners will know that because of a certain something these counts are not as effective as you might think.
The best solution which has been suggested before is to add an extra joker to start with. This allows you a more convincing count & you can give the extra joker out to the spec so they can turn it over in their hand & sort of 'join in' with the effect.
Message: Posted by: Steven Keyl (Jun 14, 2010 10:10AM)
It's interesting to me how much time is spent on the opening count to NFW. I used to execute a nifty count to make it work but now I use the opportunity to create a genuinely funny moment for the spectator. If you can make them laugh at the beginning of an effect or routine they will relax and enjoy the magic even more.

What I do is simply tell them "I have 4 jokers face up in my hand and I will now, magically, (wave hand over packet) make one of them turn over." Then do an EC to show one card is turned over and make a big fuss about how it actually turned over. It's as much HOW it is said but has never failed to generate a laugh, since the obvious conclusion is that the card was turned over to begin with. After showing the second card turn over is where the amazement begins.

I would encourage everyone to try this handling a few times to see how it plays. The reactions I get are much stronger now than they used to be, if for no other reason than getting a nice laugh in the beginning. This has a number of benefits: puts them at ease, increases your likeability to the spectator, gets them to pay closer attention what you're doing, etc.
Message: Posted by: 723sabre (Jun 21, 2010 07:37AM)
Steven,
Nice touch. Sometimes simple and straightforward is better.
Message: Posted by: Rizzo (Jun 21, 2010 08:55PM)
I agree with Steven on this. Less fuss and it becomes more magical when they actually "see" the next Joker turn over.
Message: Posted by: echomagic (Jun 27, 2010 06:36PM)
I do it as follows. Hold the cards in right hand bid... grip, with the cards in the starting position. Then, with a break between the top 2 cards and keeping very small breaks as you go- 1,4, 1,4 to show 4 face up cards. As was noted above, some of the other counts don't work very easily because of the condition of the cards.

I know the explanation is vague but you should be able to figure out the handling.
Message: Posted by: david12345 (Jun 28, 2010 09:19PM)
Magic Makers Ultimate Aces has a NFW routine. Using a biddle grip to count.
Message: Posted by: martyjacobs (Jun 29, 2010 07:09AM)
Well, you have three options:
[list][*] Don't do an initial count;
[*] Add a card and perform an EC or JC;
[*] Perform a four-card false count. My suggestion would be the Daryl/Hamman Two-For-Four count (DM Count).[/list]So long as your presentation is engaging all these approaches will work. The benefit of using an extra card is that you can give an audience member something to do. No matter how trivial, I find that this normally makes for better magic, as there is more interaction between you and your volunteer.

HTH,

Marty
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Jun 30, 2010 05:28PM)
[quote]
On 2010-06-13 06:32, MueCard wrote:
Has anybody thought of showing four regular Jokers out of the deck and exchange them to the NFW set?
[/quote]

That would be sorta alarming as there shouldn't be 4 regular jokers in a deck. :) But your suggestion does bring up a point to me, and that is that if you pulled 4 jokers from a deck, most people (especially laymen) would not be any the wiser, wouldn't realize that indeed a deck of cards has only 2 jokers in it. It all speaks to what people recognize and don't recognize. Sometimes we make much-ado-about-nothing in efforts to hide something that no one is even looking for. :D

With that, NFW can be done amazingly with or without the count. I have done this trick for years (one of the greatest packet tricks ever devised IMHO) both ways and both ways work very well. If you simply tell the spec that you have 4 jokers, they accept it, or if you supposedly show them 4 jokers they accept it. The brilliance of how well the effect is routined makes both methods work in the mind of the viewer.

Simply telling the spec that you have 4 jokers is like in B'wave telling the spec to imagine that you have 4 queens...same difference and they do accept it and never stop to think that you might not have 4 of a kind. I'm sure people believe that the special count verifies the 4 cards, much like an EC supposedly verifies that you have 4 face down cards in the effect. It sorta does but so what? If you start B'wave with just getting the spec to accept what you have as you say, it works just the same and actually plays more as a mentalist effect, which it is moreso than a magical trick which the count makes it appear more as IMHO.

Anyway, I can do NFW both ways and like adding the simple count at the beginning to somewhat elongate the effect and perhaps feel sorta good about doing the initial move to start with, makes me feel like a real card guy. :D Actually, that's the way the old video presents the effect, which is the way I mostly do it because it is simply excellent in the handling and patter. The count so expertly used there is the one I use. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_d-e_3SoGE

[i]fyi: Also notice how the presenter brings about the kicker, very smoothly done. Most people warp the cards or spin them around to make it happen...Totally unnecessary and makes the effect look like you're doing something sneaky, which you are though it mostly flies over the head of specs just the same. Anyway, this presentation of the routine is perfect. I have never seen it done any cleaner or better. Every move is smooth and flows nicely to the next. [/i]

Gary Freed created a tremendous effect (and I've told Gary this before) when he created NFW. It is not difficult to do, quite amazing, inexpensive and makes you look like quite a Card Guy without much work. And that's important to a Coin Guy like me. :)

Finally here, I would say that the 5 seconds maybe that it takes to show the 4 jokers can be both well-worth it as well as somewhat totally unnecessary. What's great is that it works well any-which-way you do it, and the specs get out of it exactly what Freed meant for them to get out of it no matter what you do as to presenting it, beyond that of presenting it poorly which I'm sure none of you is doing. When done as Freed meant it, it is an effect of sheer genius! :D

*Along these lines, I would also mention that "Double Back" is another such effect that's well worth it. Allows you to do a few good moves and guarantees the spec's amazement every time out. Pretty slick!
Message: Posted by: Lawrence O (Mar 11, 2011 09:36AM)
For this purpose I would use the most brilliant Daryl's Mexican top change double lift. It shows the same card many times in the most natural way and without the susspicion that the Flushtration count may arouse.
Message: Posted by: CardMaker (Mar 11, 2011 11:27AM)
Lawrence,

where can I find Daryl's Mexican top change double lift explained?
On any of his DVDs?
Message: Posted by: Zombie Magic (Dec 19, 2012 05:35PM)
[quote]
On 2011-03-11 12:27, CardMaker wrote:
Lawrence,

where can I find Daryl's Mexican top change double lift explained?
On any of his DVDs?
[/quote]

It's Daryl's Mexican Turnover, Top Change, Second Deal. Daryl teaches it in a few places. His Encyclopedia of Card Sleights Volume 7 and also his Ambitious Card DVD are two.
Message: Posted by: MagicJuggler (Dec 21, 2012 08:51AM)
I've used the switcharoo gimmick to both switch in and switch out the NFW packet. Infact I use this to place the four aces in my pocket (in the switcharoo) then pull out the four jokers (NFW) then show the transformation, and go to pull out the cards in my pocket to show they've switched places.
Message: Posted by: MagicJuggler (Dec 21, 2012 08:52AM)
Those that have a switcharoo should be able to figure out what I'm doing here.
Message: Posted by: Zombie Magic (Dec 21, 2012 07:45PM)
The Switcharoo is a great device. Nice work adding it to NFW!
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Dec 22, 2012 11:24AM)
:) Precisely what The Switch-A-Roo was designed for!

Doug
Message: Posted by: lynnef (Apr 14, 2013 01:10PM)
I think after performing this effect a number of times that I like Steven Keyl's version the best, using a little humor while they assume a joker was already turned over! However, I do have a question ... when I purchased the effect, there was an extra (non-gaffed) joker with the packet. Was this just an add-on, or can it be used to do a cleaner 4 count or ...? Lynn
Message: Posted by: snowpuppy (Jun 6, 2013 09:50AM)
I use the Vesser Count to show the four Aces. Try it and see if it works for you.
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Jun 12, 2013 09:07AM)
NFW comes with a non-gaffed joker but I never saw it with an extra joker in the package? It would be nice to get an extra gaff card though. :) But since it's not an expensive trick, you can always just get another set when your old one wears down too much, and then you're ready to go again for another few 100 miles or so with this classic. :D

Anyway, you can do the 4 count of the jokers with the cards regularly given , no "extras" necessary. :) I think(?) it's explained in the instructions, check again there.
Message: Posted by: dduane (Jun 13, 2013 02:52PM)
If I recall - the instructions suggest a block count (almost like a swing cut) - alternating 1 and 4 cards. I've been using it for years with this, and it gets natural looking with practice. I don't call attention to it, just do it during the opening patter.
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Jun 22, 2013 08:55PM)
Yeah, that's about how it goes, dd. :) It might be the Hammond Count(?) or something, but it certainly has a block-like nature to it in moving the cards to show the 4 Jokers. It's actually pretty easy to do and does get better and better the more you practice using it in the trick. :)

I've always liked this way of doing it, since that's the way the old demo presents it..And still to this day, I have yet to see any presentation of it (including the easy start way of just saying one joker goes faced down) that looks any better. I endeavored to learn it that way and real happy I did. But either way you do it, it really is a great trick. :)
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Jul 4, 2013 04:26PM)
Real life NFW...

I did NFW during breakfast this 4th of July morning at a restaurant for the owner. I didn't open showing the 4 jokers. I just said it was 4 jokers and began the trick. :)

The owner is a very nice guy, very tall and quite studious whenever I do a bit of magic in his place...He loves it. :) Anyway, the first joker going face down didn't impress him but the 2nd one got his attention. And then me slowing down to show how it happens with the 3rd one had him focused as he then amazingly watched all 4 end up face down. :D

He couldn't believe it and shook his head, and so did one of the waiters that had been watching all along. ;) It was like placing the last nail in the coffin to then show him so cleanly that actually I wasn't using jokers at all... I was using 4 Aces. :D

He couldn't believe it!, and when I got ready to leave he did some magic for me, and made the cost for my breakfast disappear. :) Nice guy. :)
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Jul 5, 2013 09:30AM)
[quote]
On 2013-06-13 15:52, dduane wrote:
If I recall - the instructions suggest a block count (almost like a swing cut) - alternating 1 and 4 cards. I've been using it for years with this, and it gets natural looking with practice. I don't call attention to it, just do it during the opening patter.
[/quote]

FYI: Hey dd, you're righter than I thought, it is a block push off count sorta thing...Not the Hammond Count at all but still extremely easy to do. Man, there are so many of these counts. :D
Message: Posted by: snowpuppy (Jul 5, 2013 03:08PM)
Hi Mb217 and dduane,...like I stated in my last post,...it is known as the Vesser Count (4 for 1),works great and is fairly easy to master! Mike
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Jul 6, 2013 05:31PM)
Hey thanks snow, I must've missed your initial post here. Not that I would've known exactly what the Vesser Count was :D but if that's what it's doing, then I guess the Vesser Count it is. Thanks, man. :)
Message: Posted by: martyjacobs (Jul 19, 2013 03:00PM)
[quote]Hi Mb217 and dduane,...like I stated in my last post,...it is known as the Vesser Count (4 for 1),works great and is fairly easy to master![/quote]

This doesn't sound like the [b]Veeser Count[/b], as I recall that count uses the Veeser Concept and an Open Biddle Grip. The count described in this thread sounds more akin to a [b]2-for-4 count[/b], albeit done with 5 cards in a Biddle Grip, sometimes called the [b]DM Count[/b] (after Daryl, before the name change). I believe Brother John Hamman also independently invented this count. Can anyone knowledgeable about these counts (and this trick) confirm this?

Marty
Message: Posted by: inigmntoya (Jun 12, 2019 06:25PM)
Great idea -- I'll have to try that... I just open with an EC and say I've got four jokers... one is face down... he's the leader... and move on from there.
No one has ever questioned it, and enough jokers are seen that even if they try to backtrack something about the one that was face down at the start it gets them nowhere.

[quote]On Jun 14, 2010, Steven Keyl wrote:
It's interesting to me how much time is spent on the opening count to NFW. I used to execute a nifty count to make it work but now I use the opportunity to create a genuinely funny moment for the spectator. If you can make them laugh at the beginning of an effect or routine they will relax and enjoy the magic even more.

What I do is simply tell them "I have 4 jokers face up in my hand and I will now, magically, (wave hand over packet) make one of them turn over." Then do an EC to show one card is turned over and make a big fuss about how it actually turned over. It's as much HOW it is said but has never failed to generate a laugh, since the obvious conclusion is that the card was turned over to begin with. After showing the second card turn over is where the amazement begins.

I would encourage everyone to try this handling a few times to see how it plays. The reactions I get are much stronger now than they used to be, if for no other reason than getting a nice laugh in the beginning. This has a number of benefits: puts them at ease, increases your likeability to the spectator, gets them to pay closer attention what you're doing, etc. [/quote]
Message: Posted by: Steven Keyl (Jun 12, 2019 11:09PM)
Thanks for the reminder! I need to dust this one off and start performing it again. It's a great trick.
Message: Posted by: magicwiia (Jun 13, 2019 09:55AM)
I have NFW and ACE and have tried to use a 'poker' patter when doing the routine. It always bothered me using Jokers because I couldn't associate it back to anything other than the Joker is a wild card. As mentioned above, no deck has 4 Jokers but nobody connects that to what I'm doing.

I've starting using Kings in the routine, rather than Jokers, so they see four Kings. I mention to people that collectively we have four Kings which would be an excellent hand in poker. Then I ask if they could have any four-card hand in poker, what would they want. Without hesitation everyone naturally blurts out "Four Aces!" which then naturally leads into the conclusion.

I had a new Joker made that is a colored Joker rather than the black and white. When I do use Jokers, which is not that often, I think it helps to visually make the cards "pop' with color.
Message: Posted by: inigmntoya (Jun 16, 2019 07:22PM)
[quote]On Jun 13, 2019, magicwiia wrote:
As mentioned above, no deck has 4 Jokers but nobody connects that to what I'm doing. [/quote]

After turning all 4 Jokers face down I make a point of mentioning that it's hard to get 4 jokers since you only get at most 2 in a deck... which is why I usually do the trick with (reveal) the four Aces. Actually in my case they're four kings.