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Topic: How come so many posts on the magic Café are about "teaching magic" ?
Message: Posted by: gaddy (May 27, 2010 12:42AM)
I mean [b]really![/b] What's the deal?

Is it a "Those who can, do. Those who can't, expose... I mean [i][b]teach[/b][/i]!" thing?

Just shut up and stop trying to justify your exposure of our magic.
Message: Posted by: stijnhommes (May 27, 2010 06:14AM)
There is a difference between exposure and teaching.
Teaching is when a magician allows a student the advantage of their knowledge to better their magical skill.
Exposing is when someone reveals magic secrets for anyone to see, either through posting them on the internet to look clever or "accidentally" through bad performance (and no practice).
Message: Posted by: brangwinj (May 27, 2010 10:03AM)
I teach magic at an elementary school and I have experienced many children get self confidence and a new better out look on life.. Are you really worried they know how the the little sponge ball gets big ? This whole exposure thing gets over worked. The truth is if you have the money what trick cant you learn ?? Doesn't every convention have lectures that sell the trick. If you have the gold you make the rules .
Message: Posted by: BrianMillerMagic (May 27, 2010 10:30AM)
Yes Gaddy, you're right. And I'm sure you reinvented everything you ever learned in magic by brooding alone in a room purely through your rationality like Descartes in the Meditations. Probably this isn't the case. Any Magician's Code will tell you that knowledge transfer of magic is okay, provided that the students are serious about it, willing to learn, and have also accepted the Code. With all you post on the Café, I'm perplexed by your conflation of 'teaching' with 'exposure'.
Message: Posted by: gaddy (May 27, 2010 01:20PM)
[quote]
On 2010-05-27 11:30, BrianMillerMagic wrote:
Yes Gaddy, you're right. And I'm sure you reinvented everything you ever learned in magic by brooding alone in a room purely through your rationality like Descartes in the Meditations. Probably this isn't the case. Any Magician's Code will tell you that knowledge transfer of magic is okay, provided that the students are serious about it, willing to learn, and have also accepted the Code. With all you post on the Café, I'm perplexed by your conflation of 'teaching' with 'exposure'.
[/quote]
To answer your first reductio ad absurdum, I can state that, in my own case, every single bit of magical knowledge I have acquired has been [i]sought out[/i], and in most cases, [i]paid for[/i]. We prove that we are serious students of the art by being willing to pay for the privilege of knowing. Obviously, paying money isn't the only way of proving one's serious intention -but it's a good one.

Every couple weeks there is another post by someone looking for "advice" (or "justification" in my humble opinion) for teaching a classroom full of kids - what ever sort of tricks.

Is there a rash of new classes in middle school for teaching magic? Are there new schools of magic being founded every day that I am unaware of?

I highly doubt every single one of those kids in those classrooms cares ONE BIT about magic or learning magic. The magic is being exposed in front of them, and therefore they are looking, not learning. That is exposure.

Children are introduced to the "wonders of magic" [b]by seeing magic performed[/b] and then thinking to themselves "how can I do that?", not by being plonked-down in front of a "teacher" who then shows them, and 25 other kids, how to do the ball-and-vase. any "teacher" who thinks otherwise certainly doesn't understand what interests children...

Brian, I fully agree that teaching magic to a serious student is okay. But the sort of posts that I'm seeing simply do not qualify.

Also, It used to be that magic was taught one-on-one. A competent teacher taught a desirous student. [i]OR[/i], at best, you had a lecturer addressing a room of magicians and students of magic. These days the magic is simply being exposed. And in some cases, for no other reason than to just kill some time in the classroom.

Sure, magic always been exposed -but that doesn't make it right.

And to those who say "Kids find confidence learning magic", I say -they'll get more confidence out of learning sports or art than the geeky craft of magic. Leave magic to those who [b]seek it out[/b]!
Message: Posted by: ralphs007 (May 27, 2010 02:28PM)
I have people ask me all the time to teach them a trick. I tell them that the library has tons of magic books where they can learn magic. I don't think anybody has ever taken my advice and stopped into the library . If they won't take the time to get a book that's free for there use then they don't deserve or have the desire to learn.
Long story short. Twenty years ago I pointed someone who was interested in learning magic to a magic shop in Philly. Turns out he did coin in a bottle for his buddies. They wanted to know the secret so they all chipped in and payed him to reveal the secret. I still regret helping him and wish I just told him to go to the library .
That was the last time I referred someone to a magic shop. And I never tell them about online magic shops either.
Message: Posted by: gaddy (May 27, 2010 02:40PM)
[quote]
On 2010-05-27 15:28, ralphs007 wrote:
I have people ask me all the time to teach them a trick. I tell them that the library has tons of magic books where they can learn magic. I don't think anybody has ever taken my advice and stopped into the library . If they won't take the time to get a book that's free for there use then they don't deserve or have the desire to learn.
Long story short. Twenty years ago I pointed someone who was interested in learning magic to a magic shop in Philly. Turns out he did coin in a bottle for his buddies. They wanted to know the secret so they all chipped in and payed him to reveal the secret. I still regret helping him and wish I just told him to go to the library .
That was the last time I referred someone to a magic shop. And I never tell them about online magic shops either.
[/quote]

Wow! That's pretty harsh, but it mostly reflects how I feel as well.

[i][b]"I"[/i][/b] am the one who knows magic. [i][b]"I"[/i][/b] am the magician. I'm not about to [i]stop[/i] someone else from learning magic, but it would take a very serious student to get me to reveal my secrets -and I'm not even sure I'm qualified to [i]teach[/i] them. There is a world of difference between knowing how a trick is done and being able to teach that method to someone else.

Again:[quote] "Those who can... [b]DO[/b]. Those who cannot... [b]expose[/b][/quote]
Message: Posted by: dsalley13 (May 27, 2010 02:42PM)
I'm going to seriously limit my time here from now on and just come here daily to check out and maybe buy some cr@p. It seems to be getting to be well over 50% plain bi(ching and moaning about "You said this...", I said that..." You exposed by saying the word R3ll", "well you said the word sh&ll", etc., etc., ad infinitum.

A whole lot of newbys come in and want to be intellectual deputies by turning in posts that have a forbidden word or posting a forbidden thought and then smile in their PMs of how they got over on you. It's all just getting real old. What a bunch of horse pucky!!! I'll keep checking in and see if anybody has grown up enough to have adult conversations and the trading of ideas for the benefit of all.



dsalley13
Message: Posted by: gaddy (May 27, 2010 02:49PM)
[quote]
On 2010-05-27 15:42, dsalley13 wrote:
I'm going to seriously limit my time here from now on and just come here daily to check out and maybe buy some cr@p. It seems to be getting to be well over 50% plain bi(ching and moaning about "You said this...", I said that..." You exposed by saying the word R3ll", "well you said the word sh&ll", etc., etc., ad infinitum.

A whole lot of newbys come in and want to be intellectual deputies by turning in posts that have a forbidden word or posting a forbidden thought and then smile in their PMs of how they got over on you. It's all just getting real old. What a bunch of horse pucky!!! I'll keep checking in and see if anybody has grown up enough to have adult conversations and the trading of ideas for the benefit of all.



dsalley13
[/quote]

Sorry you feel this way. I feel that this subject is worthy of a real discussion, otherwise I wouldn't have posted it -believe me I've got better things I could be doing than complaining that a bunch of strangers are teaching magic to kids...

But I feel the idea behind my complaint strikes at the heart as to who most people don't take magic seriously -because many of it's practitioners are willing to sell it out for a moment of two of titillation, often disguised as a "teaching moment".
Message: Posted by: ryesteve (May 27, 2010 02:58PM)
Wouldn't it make more sense to rail against the morons who post YouTube exposure videos that get thousands of hits, rather than casting aspersions on the motives of a handful of people who decide to teach a dozen kids?
Message: Posted by: gaddy (May 27, 2010 03:31PM)
[quote]
On 2010-05-27 15:58, ryesteve wrote:
Wouldn't it make more sense to rail against the morons who post YouTube exposure videos that get thousands of hits, rather than casting aspersions on the motives of a handful of people who decide to teach a dozen kids?
[/quote]

Those people are beneath even contempt. But you make a good point.
Message: Posted by: rklew64 (May 27, 2010 04:10PM)
Finally! And I thought I was the only one here feeling this way. That is why there should be another area in the forum for people who have at least 1k of posts to really discuss magic without the riff raff mixed in with everybody.
I am tired of many others who help spoon-feed magic advice (Teaching) to others who are lazy. Those who do are too nice and may not be able to discern the real sincere new magicians from posers that just want the easy way w/o any show of effort. Is it so hard to effing google or even use the search engine on this forum to do the homework first and read and cross reference things. Research the book's toc (table of contents), Finally!
Huuuh, can someone tell me what is the difference between an Okito box and a Boston box, and where I can buy one and tell me who has the best routines and why and who is David Roth and is this a new trick? CMON !! Grrrrrr. And someone sure enough will lay it all out. A young generation self centered punks that have zero work ethics and act as everything is owed to them automatically. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.
Message: Posted by: coolini (May 27, 2010 04:21PM)
And to those who say "Kids find confidence learning magic", I say -they'll get more confidence out of learning sports or art than the geeky craft of magic. Leave magic to those who [b]seek it out[/b]!
[/quote]

that was spot on, well said...i totally agree with you.
Message: Posted by: Jaxon (May 27, 2010 04:45PM)
I first got into magic before the internet. I was fortunate to have two magic shops in my town and Abbott's magic company just a short 40 minute drive away. So I was able to meet and learn from hundreds of magicians. I learned not only by their teaching and examples of the right way. But also by observing people their mistakes. So basically it allowed me to learn from some of their mistakes rather then making all of them myself.

Back then magicians mainly only got together at magic club meetings, conventions and occasional phone calls. So when the internet became more widely used it was so much easier for magicians to discuss things about magic.

Rather then talking about them in places where general public gather and could read. We created places like this. True, non-magicians can come here but in all honesty most won't even know where to look. Or rather wouldn't have the drive to find a place like this.

Even if they do and someone comes here and asks "How is this done" it's unlikely they'll get an answer. It's true we do discuss magic here. But it's not like we're saying "This is how it's done".

Besides what else would you expect. If all we did in here is discuss the weather and news this wouldn't be a magicians site. :)

Ron Jaxon
Message: Posted by: Aus (May 27, 2010 06:26PM)
I think first whats needed is to accept that each person has to find his or her own level of passion and commitment and that not everyone is going to be as passionate as you.

I have written How-To Guides on Buying Magic (Sticky), Presentation, Routining, Magic On a Budget, Getting Started in Magic all of which could be classified as exposure in your terms gaddy, but I personally don't see the diffrance in sending someone to the library in seach of a book to someone taking a piece of paper and a pen to routine which requires just as much effort if not more so.

My Guides are rather long in length and detailed which requires effort in it's self to take the time to read, let alone put them into practice. I think people that want a quick fix have passions just a quick, so even if you do tell them what the difference beween an Okito and Boston Box is and whats the best routine for it, it would be my guess it will be yesterdays news and relegated to the junk draw in no time.

[quote]
On 2010-05-27 17:10, rklew64 wrote:
Finally! And I thought I was the only one here feeling this way. That is why there should be another area in the forum for people who have at least 1k of posts to really discuss magic without the riff raff mixed in with everybody.[/quote]

This would exclude me rklew64, and take some time to see some of my posts and I think you'll see that I have a lot to contribute to any discussion. The only reason I'v been here so long and only have a small number of posts is because I search the Café before posting, and even then only post when I feel there is nothing on my topic or if I only have something constructive to say. So 1k posts would'nt work for me.

Magician

Aus
Message: Posted by: MaxfieldsMagic (May 28, 2010 01:09AM)
[quote]
On 2010-05-27 17:45, Jaxon wrote:
True, non-magicians can come here but in all honesty most won't even know where to look. Or rather wouldn't have the drive to find a place like this.

[/quote]

This site comes up pretty high on the Google searches for most magic topics. In fact, I often exit the site and reenter it through a Google search on a particular topic in order to avoid the "sorry, you can't run another search again so soon" prompt.
Message: Posted by: gaddy (May 28, 2010 01:28AM)
[quote]
On 2010-05-28 02:09, MaxfieldsMagic wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-05-27 17:45, Jaxon wrote:
True, non-magicians can come here but in all honesty most won't even know where to look. Or rather wouldn't have the drive to find a place like this.

[/quote]

This site comes up pretty high on the Google searches for most magic topics. In fact, I often exit the site and reenter it through a Google search on a particular topic in order to avoid the "sorry, you can't run another search again so soon" prompt.
[/quote]

This is an unfortunate side effect of having a very open format for this forum. I've always wondered why Steve Brooks decided to go this route when designing The Magic Café, when demanding even a simple member registration before viewing anything other than the "New To Magic" forum would have prevented it's indirect contributions to exposure. But the Genii is out of the bottle there...
Message: Posted by: funsway (May 28, 2010 09:26AM)
I have ttied many different approaches in the last 50 years to helping aspiring magicians and insiring others. This included forcing salepeople in a workshop to learn and present a magic effect -- yes, it can effect confidence. I would offer these thoughts:

1) since every magician wants and expects an audience that is "keen on magic" they should invest some time either inspiring or assisting aspiring new magicians -- whatever that means to you. If you are not willing to teach, even by example, then you can't complain about audience response or attention. At least be be prepared to mentor a serious student.

2) all magic presentations are "exposure: to some extent. You are either exposing people to magic as entertainment, crappy magic to turn people off, or providing clues as to "hopw it's done" for the discerning viewer. When you do a kids show the adults can often 'figure it out', When you show you favorite effect again and again some will 'figure it out'.

3) if you teach magic offer one effect. When the student learns it and can perform it adequately you teach them another -- and it is never up to the student's desire what they learn next. You must teach presentation, timing, practice discipline etc. along with the trick.

4) treat each teaching venture as a success. Stopping training because a student won't practice is a valuable lesson. An experienced student should be treated the same. I have offered free effects to many on the Café with thousands of post with an agreement that they provide feedback. Only 27% have met that commitment -- perhaps because no one ever held them accountable when they were young. Well, you don't get a second effect no matter how famous you are.

I guess the point is that you must be serious about sharing magic at any level. You must chose your own ethical level of sharing, but I'd rather error on the training side than never inspire new magicians at all. If I do a kid's birthday party I give each kid a small magic set and perform a couple of the effects during the show. It's up to them to carry forward if the desire is there, but "no" -- I never show a group how a trick is done.
Message: Posted by: MaxfieldsMagic (May 29, 2010 07:52PM)
[quote]
On 2010-05-28 10:26, funsway wrote:
I have offered free effects to many on the Café with thousands of post with an agreement that they provide feedback. Only 27% have met that commitment -- perhaps because no one ever held them accountable when they were young. Well, you don't get a second effect no matter how famous you are.

[/quote]

27%... sounds like you're keeping pretty precise records. Guess I'd better get around to writing that review I promised you last May. Sorry!
Message: Posted by: 55Hudson (May 29, 2010 08:19PM)
Quote:

On 2010-05-27 17:10, rklew64 wrote:
Finally! And I thought I was the only one here feeling this way. That is why there should be another area in the forum for people who have at least 1k of posts to really discuss magic without the riff raff mixed in with everybody.

Wow -- tough crowd here. If new users couldn't access anything other than the new member thread, what value would they get from this site?

Is this an argument of experienced versus inexperienced, or of dedicated versus casual? There is considerable difference. I am a novice at magic, however very serious in its study.

I agree that exposure is not appropriate and never has been -- for exposure's sake. However, without exposure at some level, the craft would have never advanced or been passed from one generation to another. There will always be those that choose to diminish the profession, however that is the case for every profession (Lawyers, Medical Doctors, Military Leaders, Politicians, MBA's ...). The best you can do is to ensure your actions set an example for others and try to influence those around you.

Hudson
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (May 29, 2010 09:22PM)
No doubt, Mr. Miyagi would have a very dirty car were he to try "wax on wax off" with today's crowd! I agree with you 100%, gaddy, but have concluded most people on this forum see no harm in exposure of any kind.

This comes from having my head beat in by the exposure aficianados who will now descend upon this thread...
Message: Posted by: othelo68 (Jun 2, 2010 07:34PM)
Magic is magic. like everything else there are good intentioned people who do not so well thought out things. if your a humanist you just hope that every one is essentially good and move one. sometimes the post get a little redundant and lazy but you choose what you respond to. if you don't respond those who do will get tired of repeating themselves and stop as well. also you kinda have to take things with a grain of salt. people who are getting started in something new have a lot of passion and not a lot of skill. they want to do and see everything. eventually the will settle down and even out or get bored and stop. you were new once too. as far as exposure goes. yes it sucks, but your never going to stop it. as long as there is someone who knows and someone who wants to know things will get exposed. maybe magic police with machine guns should start patrolling the conventions, ring meetings, websites, and shop shooting anyone who performs poorly or rampantly exposes while a cool idea I don't think its feasible. people want to share their passions and will justify it anyway they can, most kids will forget. some wont either way what do you do. exposure isn't the reason magic is looked down upon its an abundance of poor performers doing the same tired tricks over and over.

it is what it is magic is magic

Posted: Jun 2, 2010 8:38pm
Holy punctuation Bat-Man! Should have edited that one.

sorry,
Message: Posted by: Bob1Dog (Jun 3, 2010 01:42AM)
"Twenty years ago I pointed someone who was interested in learning magic to a magic shop in Philly. Turns out he did coin in a bottle for his buddies."

Might that have been Irv Furman's Hocus Pocus shop on 4th Street? He died a few years back and the shop is now a boutique....just fyi.....bob

osted: Jun 3, 2010 2:45am
P.s. I still own a few decks of Irv's hand marked Bicycle Decks. There are better ones out there for sure, but his were the first ones I played with and fooled folks with.....
Message: Posted by: gaddy (Jun 3, 2010 02:29AM)
[quote]
On 2010-05-29 21:19, 55Hudson wrote:
Quote:

On 2010-05-27 17:10, rklew64 wrote:
Finally! And I thought I was the only one here feeling this way. That is why there should be another area in the forum for people who have at least 1k of posts to really discuss magic without the riff raff mixed in with everybody.

Wow -- tough crowd here. If new users couldn't access anything other than the new member thread, what value would they get from this site?

Is this an argument of experienced versus inexperienced, or of dedicated versus casual? There is considerable difference. I am a novice at magic, however very serious in its study.

Hudson
[/quote]

Nope, this is an argument against goof-balls who should not be exposing magic to classrooms or summer camps full of kids who don't care about it under the pretext of "teaching magic".

Also, indirectly, I'm arguing that magic should only be taught to those who seek it out, and that there should always be a price to pay... People rarely value that which is acquired for free.
Message: Posted by: Bryan Smith (Jun 3, 2010 05:13AM)
I completely agree with you, gaddy, but I don't know what to do about it. People place a value on things equal to what they paid for it. If someone gets something cheap or free, they don't value it even if it's worth valuing. You often hear people say things like "Be careful, that's a $500 vase!" If it was the exact same vase but cost $10, they wouldn't care about it. People should pay (either monetarily or otherwise) for learning magic.

That said, what can be done? Practically nothing as far as I can see. If you have any ideas besides complaining about it in a forum, I'd like to know. We all know it's a problem. Well some people don't seem to think it is, but those people are obviously at least as good at fooling themselves as they are their audiences (or often they're not working magicians at all). The question now is what to do. If I hear any good ideas, I'll gladly implement them.

P.S. Today, I have decided to take out a really powerful effect from my show. It's the type of effect that has had people talking about it for weeks afterwards and telling everyone they met what they saw. It stuns kids and adults alike into screams or prolonged stunned silence. I have spent a lot of time developing my patter and presentation to get it just right. However, nowadays, I am having more and more kids in the audience who know how it's done. How they found out, I don't know. Today was the last straw. In two shows back to back there was some jack@$$ kid yelling out to everyone how it was done. That leaves me questioning how many POLITE kids also know how it's done. Due to exposure, that effect is just no longer worth the risk. Thanks, all you magic teachers out there.
Message: Posted by: ryesteve (Jun 3, 2010 06:10AM)
[quote]
On 2010-06-03 06:13, Bryan Smith wrote:
However, nowadays, I am having more and more kids in the audience who know how it's done. How they found out, I don't know. [/quote]YouTube.
Message: Posted by: Hugo (Jun 3, 2010 08:38PM)
First, I totally agree with gaddy's posts in this thread. Second, I agree with Bryan that jack@$$ kids are multiplying exponentially and, sad to say, showing up at magic shows. However, exposure has ALWAYS been a fear in this business. This fear has crippled some careers, led to fierce competitions among rival magicians, and, ultimately, resulted in spawning new tricks and new ways of performing the classics! So, to Bryan's question, "What can be done?" The answer is, "Nothing." Exposure is part of the endless circle of creation & decay. Exposure is actually what drives us to create bigger & better (at least for a little while) magic!

Now, I'm not saying that anyone should expose magic for the "betterment" of the art. Far from it! However, when the secret has entered the mainstream (via youtube or some mis-guided mage) it is time to move on, as Bryan did. However, before giving up totally on the illusion, I might suggest borrowing an idea from Penn & Teller: perform the trick and let the jack@$$es scream out the secret, then blow their minds by proving them wrong. ;)
Message: Posted by: funsway (Jun 5, 2010 06:54AM)
[quote]
On 2010-06-03 03:29, gaddy wrote:
Also, indirectly, I'm arguing that magic should only be taught to those who seek it out, and that there should always be a price to pay... People rarely value that which is acquired for free.
[/quote]

Yes, but the 'payment' does not have to be in money. Placing a bartered monetary price on a lesson or 'secret' can also limit its value. $10 can be a lot for one person and meaningless for another -- so the implication is that wealthy people have a greater right to magic secrets than poorer folk. So, I have always charged something else of value to the student like "one hour of your time for a project of my choice" As noted above, any failure to meet a commitment stops the Lessons.
Message: Posted by: ralphs007 (Jun 5, 2010 11:54AM)
[quote]
On 2010-06-03 02:42, Bob1Dog wrote:
"Twenty years ago I pointed someone who was interested in learning magic to a magic shop in Philly. Turns out he did coin in a bottle for his buddies."

Might that have been Irv Furman's Hocus Pocus shop on 4th Street? He died a few years back and the shop is now a boutique....just fyi.....bob
[/quote]
Hi
No, it was called Philadelphia Magic. I think they were on market street.
Message: Posted by: DWRackley (Jun 5, 2010 03:58PM)
[quote]Gaddy

…magic should only be taught to those who seek it out, and that there should always be a price to pay…
[/quote]
[quote]
funsway

…but the 'payment' does not have to be in money…
[/quote]

Both VERY true!

When I started in Magic, I was a teenager with only the money I could beg from my parents. In fact, the magic shop became my first paying job. Both cleaning the shop and waiting on customers was a thrill for me, and I learned (at first) by copying the seasoned pros around me. A few would take the time to give me “pointers”, which I treasured.

After I’d “proven” myself with a particular prop, Carl (the owner) would let me borrow his personal items for a show, until I could buy (or build) my own.

I also helped loading, carrying, and setting up equipment for others in the local club, anything I could do to get close to the Magic.

Highlight of my life (even to date) was receiving a standing ovation from a room full of magicians for a performance at the Palace of Mystery. I guess I think of that as my “graduation”.

I didn’t think of it in terms of “paying dues”, it was just what you did to get in.

YouBoob hasn’t done us any favors, but it also doesn’t help those who steal ideas through it. They’ll never get the coaching needed to produce a true “miracle”.

Exposure hurts everyone, both “us” and “them”.
Message: Posted by: impossible man (Jul 8, 2010 08:33AM)
There is a huge interest in magic among young people, about 8-10. Around third grade though, a lot of boys lose interest as they focus on sports. This is the age I am often hired to teach. I have always charged for my lessons. And I expect even the youngsters to learn a few "moves," like a false transfer.

One of the camp staff told one of the struggling campers the other day, "magic is hard, you have to practice." That is exactly the way I want them to remember part of the lesson.

As far as showing a trick to grown ups for their own use, I teach them a moderately hard trick, and postpone teaching them anything else until they can perform that trick well. If they do the work, they may be attracted in to the hobby. If not, I have a built-in excuse for refusing them any more instruction.
Message: Posted by: Cyberqat (Jul 8, 2010 09:18AM)
Edited: My first reaction was perhaps over-harsh and I apologize, but you REALLY hit a nerve.

I don't think anyone here would argue that reveals are a good thing, that's why we have the banquet room

Magic has always been taught and a maintained by communities however, and this is as valid a community as any. A community to be healthy must be welcoming to new members and I am sure we all here have our ways of seperatign the wheat from the chaff in that regard.

I don't see, however, how having opened your wallet makes you some how more worthy then the kid whose pockets are empty? Furthermore, we all * should* know that magic isn't about "great secrets." The techniques are ancient. Magic is about presentation and performance.

Finally, I really don't see the harm in the story above about the coin in the bottle. What is really the difference between them paying their friend to learn it and someone buying a book to learn it or paying a tutor? that kind of "small scale" reveal does no real damage to the art and MIGHT end up recruiting another community member who gets excited to learn more.

What is heinous are the indiscriminate mass-audience reveals. And mostly, they just hurt the audience.

Posted: Jul 8, 2010 10:58am
P.S. I personally think that anyone who even *finds* the Café has already demonstrated at least some initiative and is likely to be a good community addition.
Message: Posted by: Douglas Lippert (Jul 9, 2010 12:09AM)
[quote]
On 2010-05-27 01:42, gaddy wrote:
I mean REALLY! What's the deal?

Is it a "Those who can, do. Those who can't, expose... I mean [i]TEACH[/i]!" thing?

Just shut up and stop trying to justify your exposure of our magic.
[/quote]

A lot of times a child will ask if he/she can do magic like me. I say yes you can! Then, I show them a rather simple trick and ask if they can keep a secret. You know the rest..and I let them keep the deck of cards as a gift. If they do get the magic bug they will go to the library and find a magic book like I did...:)

Having said that, if someone does not ASK me with a genuine interest I will not just teach them tricks. That IS exposure.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Jul 10, 2010 07:41AM)
[quote]
On 2010-07-08 10:58, Cyberqat wrote:
P.S. I personally think that anyone who even *finds* the Café has already demonstrated at least some initiative and is likely to be a good community addition.
[/quote]

By just typing "magic forum" on google? Some benchmark...
Message: Posted by: Vlad_77 (Jul 10, 2010 04:45PM)
[quote]
On 2010-05-27 01:42, gaddy wrote:
I mean REALLY! What's the deal?

Is it a "Those who can, do. Those who can't, expose... I mean [i]TEACH[/i]!" thing?

Just shut up and stop trying to justify your exposure of our magic.
[/quote]

Firstly, "shut up" is NOT conducive to positive discourse.

Now as to the hackneyed and false statement that "those who cannot do, teach." To believe that is to sully the Masters such as Slydini, Garcia, Annemann, Lorayne, Burger, McBride, etc. ALL are teachers. More importantly, the BEST teachers are also learners.

I think Brian Miller answered you quite well Gaddy. But, do we judge by BANK ACCOUNT or by MOTIVATION? Yes, there ARE those who only wish to be spoon-fed. Easy rememdy there. Ignore them. But I do take issue with your implication that teachers are incompetent exposers of the Art. Perhaps you did not clearly state the difference, especially since you emphasized the word "teach".

I respectfully submit that you have insulted many people past, present, and future.

Common courtesy will get you a lot further than a dismissive "shut up". Understand that I am not attacking you. But I AM hoping that you will see that your words are incorrect AND wrong on many levels.

One story I would like to share. The late master, Jim Cellini was a student of the great teacher and Master, Tony Slydini. My dear friend John Blake was also a student of Slydini. John also knew Cellini. John related a story in which Cellini was performing on the street one day when Slydini came to watch him. Please bear in mind that while Slydini was a kind soul, he was also a VERY exacting teacher, and as you know, one of the IMMORTALS in the pantheon of the Art. When Cellini finished his performance, The Master walked to him and said, "there is nothing more I can teach you. You are superb. Cellini WEPT at this! He begged the Master to keep him under his tutelage.

So, I ask you respectfully: in your assertion, given YOUR words, was Slydini an incompetent exposer of magic? I respectfully submit that to answer in the affirmative reduces you as a magician. I DO hope you will reconsider your opinion, and I DO hope you will choose your discourse in a manner that is not insulting.

I am VERY thankful for EVERY mentor I have had. Most of these mentors I have never met. Harry Lorayne and Slydini are my chief influences, but, I have had 20 years professionally in the Art and I have learned even from the neophyte. Every book you read, every DVD you watch Gaddy, is the act of a TEACHER.

Ahimsa .... Yes, this Hindi word, the one I always sign with IS appropriate here. So ...

Ahimsa,
Vlad

PS: GEEKY CRAFT?? I would really love to get your thoughts on THAT assertion :)
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Jul 10, 2010 08:44PM)
Two reasons why I rarely perform any more.

Masked Magician
YouTube

The WORST offenders. All others pale in comparison.

Just my opinion,

Doug
Message: Posted by: gaddy (Jul 11, 2010 01:14AM)
[quote]
On 2010-07-10 17:45, Vlad_77 wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-05-27 01:42, gaddy wrote:
I mean REALLY! What's the deal?

Is it a "Those who can, do. Those who can't, expose... I mean [i]TEACH[/i]!" thing?

Just shut up and stop trying to justify your exposure of our magic.
[/quote]

Firstly, "shut up" is NOT conducive to positive discourse.

Now as to the hackneyed and false statement that "those who cannot do, teach." To believe that is to sully the Masters such as Slydini, Garcia, Annemann, Lorayne, Burger, McBride, etc. ALL are teachers. More importantly, the BEST teachers are also learners.

I think Brian Miller answered you quite well Gaddy. But, do we judge by BANK ACCOUNT or by MOTIVATION? Yes, there ARE those who only wish to be spoon-fed. Easy rememdy there. Ignore them. But I do take issue with your implication that teachers are incompetent exposers of the Art. Perhaps you did not clearly state the difference, especially since you emphasized the word "teach".

I respectfully submit that you have insulted many people past, present, and future.

Common courtesy will get you a lot further than a dismissive "shut up". Understand that I am not attacking you. But I AM hoping that you will see that your words are incorrect AND wrong on many levels.

One story I would like to share. The late master, Jim Cellini was a student of the great teacher and Master, Tony Slydini. My dear friend John Blake was also a student of Slydini. John also knew Cellini. John related a story in which Cellini was performing on the street one day when Slydini came to watch him. Please bear in mind that while Slydini was a kind soul, he was also a VERY exacting teacher, and as you know, one of the IMMORTALS in the pantheon of the Art. When Cellini finished his performance, The Master walked to him and said, "there is nothing more I can teach you. You are superb. Cellini WEPT at this! He begged the Master to keep him under his tutelage.

So, I ask you respectfully: in your assertion, given YOUR words, was Slydini an incompetent exposer of magic? I respectfully submit that to answer in the affirmative reduces you as a magician. I DO hope you will reconsider your opinion, and I DO hope you will choose your discourse in a manner that is not insulting.

I am VERY thankful for EVERY mentor I have had. Most of these mentors I have never met. Harry Lorayne and Slydini are my chief influences, but, I have had 20 years professionally in the Art and I have learned even from the neophyte. Every book you read, every DVD you watch Gaddy, is the act of a TEACHER.

Ahimsa .... Yes, this Hindi word, the one I always sign with IS appropriate here. So ...

Ahimsa,
Vlad

PS: GEEKY CRAFT?? I would really love to get your thoughts on THAT assertion :)
[/quote]
I don't think you understood what I was saying at all.

I'm not talking at all about the proper mentor/ student relationship at all.

I'm talking, for example, about foolish camp councilors and grade school teachers posting questions here on The Café asking about the "best method", for example, to teach a bunch of fourth graders the Ball and Vase.

Slydini never taught Coin One to the entire Muskrat patrol at Camp Bone-a-Gopher...

Those kids DON'T CARE, but they are looking in the general direction of the guy who just can't shut up about magic -but they are listening to him [i]because that's the way their desks are turned[/i]!!! Out of those 25 kids, perhaps [i]two[/i] of them have any real interest in magic, but the other 23 kids are now watching a guy [i]go on and on[/i] at length about our methodologies -and that is exposure, plain and simple.

Also, it just occurs to me: If someone is asking questions on methods of the teaching of certain magic tricks to the general population of The Magic Café (such as it is!), is this a person who is [i]really[/i] qualified to be teaching said tricks in the first place?
Just curious... :devilish:

Your other points I simply won't address.
Message: Posted by: Cyberqat (Jul 11, 2010 10:00AM)
Oh. Well, I have almost never seen a post like that. Maybe we son't look in the same parts of the forum?

As for the cup and ball, Adams has sold that for a buck or less for as long as I can remember in any toy or joke shop. I think teaching kids how to actually perform it is a good thing and hardly very "revealing." Even if only 2 kids actually get into it, that's two more future real magicians.

Posted: Jul 11, 2010 11:06am
OH as for Googling... given how many questions I answer here with "Google is a wonderful thing..." and a link I found with my first or second Google query, I wouldn't take finding us with a google to be "no work."

IMO At bear minimum it shows interest and initiative.
Message: Posted by: gaddy (Jul 11, 2010 11:10AM)
[quote]
On 2010-07-11 11:06, Cyberqat wrote:
OH as for Googling... given how many questions I answer here with "Google is a wonderful thing..." and a link I found with my first or second Google query, I wouldn't take finding us with a google to be "no work."

IMO At bear minimum it shows interest and initiative.
[/quote]

I agree, however, again, that's not what I'm railing against here.
[quote]
On 2010-07-11 11:00, Cyberqat wrote:
Oh. Well, I have almost never seen a post like that. Maybe we son't look in the same parts of the forum?
[/quote]
The trend ebbs and flows. Sometimes I see quite a few, and at other times, not so many...
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Jul 11, 2010 05:01PM)
Google is great- can be used to find correct spelling also. As to the 2 kids who "actually get into it", they will lose interest the first time they perform for one of the 23 who didn't but learned the secret anyway...
Message: Posted by: Cyberqat (Jul 11, 2010 05:24PM)
Sorry, I totally, absolutely disagree. The ones who get into it will go on to seek out other things to learn.

Is there anyplace in the US where any kid over the age of 10 DOESN'T know the cup and ball? At least any place that has electric power? Lets get real here.

The point isn't to "fool your friends". The point is to introduce the idea of magic and, if the instructor is any good, a bit about performance.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Jul 11, 2010 10:18PM)
Cy-

I certainly respect your opinion. It would help to understand your experience and performance history. Could you give me a brief as to what type of magic you perform, and for how long you have been performing?

I have only been performing for about 5 years, having dabbled in magic all my life. I do stage (up to 80-100), parlor and busking. Just getting in to doing some pitches, mostly to try it out. I belong to SAM and hold a magician membership in the Academy of Magical Arts (Magic Castle). I have yet to compete, but plan to do so at next year's Magi Fest. Latest gig was at the Columbus Museum of Art, where I did a Chihuly show on glass magic. I am relating this only because I figure you will ask.

I would suppose most of us would not for a moment think other than "the point isn't to "fool your friends"". That is a bit of a condescending thing to say. Further I do not agree that the "point is to introduce the idea of magic" as an "instructor". I do not believe magic is something you go around inflicting people with, or have you not noticed how many people have limited tolerance for magic?

Really, I have a hard time thinking of many endeavors, hobbies, avocations, careers, etc. where the person does not come to the "mountain" rather than the other way around. So, it is hard for me to accept that it is a good idea to start "teaching" this to people who did not ask (or beg) you to do so.

As a professional educator, I also object to the concept that anyone with something they want to show to others can teach. It is not that easy, even after years of training and experience. Teaching, like most everything, only looks easy in the arms of a seasoned expert, after paying dues of study and practice.

My opinion? We all like to show off, and if we are not good enough at performing to show off, the easy way to feel superior is to "teach" our unsuspecting victims...

For me, the "point" is much more to remain faithful to the profession of magic. This requires a very strict definition of when and where I "teach". I find it unsettling that the issue seems to me to come up most frequently in the "New To Magic" section.

Yeah, we see it differently, but that's cool...

Jim
Message: Posted by: gaffed (Jul 11, 2010 11:21PM)
[quote]
On 2010-07-10 21:44, Dougini wrote:
Two reasons why I rarely perform any more.

Masked Magician
YouTube

The WORST offenders. All others pale in comparison.

Just my opinion,

Doug
[/quote]

You rarely perform anymore because of [i][b]that[/b][/i]!!
Granted, I'm not at all too happy with the YouTube thing (in more ways than one), but I can't for the life of me remember the last time I've ever seen the Masked Magician! Really....you [i]can't[/i] be serious!
Message: Posted by: gaddy (Jul 11, 2010 11:32PM)
[quote]
On 2010-07-11 23:18, mandarin wrote:
........Further I do not agree that the "point is to introduce the idea of magic" as an "instructor". I do not believe magic is something you go around inflicting people with, or have you not noticed how many people have limited tolerance for magic?

Really, I have a hard time thinking of many endeavors, hobbies, avocations, careers, etc. where the person does not come to the "mountain" rather than the other way around. So, it is hard for me to accept that it is a good idea to start "teaching" this to people who did not ask (or beg) you to do so...........
Jim
[/quote]

TOTALLY AGREE! And thank you for putting this more succinctly than I have thus far!

There is absolutely NO NEED for us to be "Evangelists" for the "cause of magic". Not one person I know came to be a magician because some boring teacher taught their entire grade school class how the Svengali deck works or a Ball and Vase trick is done.

They choose to learn magic because they SAW MAGIC PERFORMED and wanted to learn how it was done.
Message: Posted by: Ade2010 (Jul 12, 2010 03:56AM)
An argument, on an internet message board?!

Who'da thunk it...?
Message: Posted by: funsway (Jul 12, 2010 07:45AM)
I find myself agreeing with most of what Mandarin says (usually do), but think the concept of "teaching" goes further. We teach people to appreciate good magic by only doing "good magic" (practiced and audience adaptive amongst other thing), and Teach people to regard magic as a joke by just doing tricks or invading people's privacy. When you refuse to define a word for a child and direct them to a dictionary you are teaching them. If you give a child (of any age) a simple trick to learn and master as a test of interest and voracity you are also teaching. I give away lots of "Adair's Butterfly" as a puzzle that can be performed as a magic trick to teach what magic is not -- or at least to teach that good magic is more than just acquiring tricks. Am I exposing a secret? The fact that many magic effects are based in faulty visual perceptions may be a big secret.

New members are admitted to our Magic Circle by showing up twice and performing three silly tricks -- then we open up all of our secrets. Why isn't that considered exposure? Years ago Boy's Life and Weekly Reader used to "teach" magic tricks in the beleif that knowing how to perform in public was a valuable social skill. Now days I think it is "magic" if an employee shows up on time.

Thus, in a rambling way, I think each of us should teach magic everyday to everyone we meet -- but that has nothing to do with training tricks mechanics. If you don't plan to either teach or learn, why communicate with other people at all?
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Jul 12, 2010 08:07AM)
[quote]
On 2010-07-12 00:21, gaffed wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-07-10 21:44, Dougini wrote:
Two reasons why I rarely perform any more.

Masked Magician
YouTube

The WORST offenders. All others pale in comparison.

Just my opinion,

Doug
[/quote]

You rarely perform anymore because of [i][b]that[/b][/i]!!
Granted, I'm not at all too happy with the YouTube thing (in more ways than one), but I can't for the life of me remember the last time I've ever seen the Masked Magician! Really....you [i]can't[/i] be serious!
[/quote]

In the circle of people I used to hang with (Florida), I started getting flak after a run of "Masked Magician" episodes on Fox. Several of my best effects were exposed. It seems all I heard was, "Oh, saw that on that magic secrets show." I mean, no big deal, right? Just a red face, and we continue...

Then, I buy "Prohibition", one of the best Cap In Bottle routines I've ever learned. I have to admit, I was very happy with that for a while, but guess who exposed it on NATIONAL TV??? Yup. The Masked one!

I'm not a professional. I'm old school. I have very few magic skills, and have done pretty well for what skills I have. I've practiced HOURS, every day, and when I find it's time time to show something, seems the Masked One has been there already.

I've moved recently, and don't know anyone here (Bangor). So, maybe you're right, I am being ridiculous. I can start over here...I was just SO miffed at the whole thing, I just shut down.

Maybe the move is what I needed. Still... YouTube as great a tool that it is, is outta control on exposure. Nuttin' we can do. We press on!

My $.02,

Doug
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Jul 12, 2010 08:55AM)
Doug-

That you are still cruising the Café shows you are as hooked as some of the rest of us - I feel your pain! Perhaps a solution lies in the huge mountain of effects out there, no? I wonder, has anyone put together a compendium of what TMI has exposed, so that we all just avoid those effects? A thought for those of us who just can't quit...
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Jul 12, 2010 10:48AM)
LOL, Mandarin...yep...after a year, here I am again! Withdrawal symptoms dictated my return...

Sorry to see so much disagreement as of late. Some fascinating discussions, for sure...

Best,

Doug
Message: Posted by: gaddy (Jul 12, 2010 10:57AM)
[quote]
On 2010-07-12 09:55, mandarin wrote:
Doug-

That you are still cruising the Café shows you are as hooked as some of the rest of us - I feel your pain! Perhaps a solution lies in the huge mountain of effects out there, no? I wonder, has anyone put together a compendium of what TMI has exposed, so that we all just avoid those effects? A thought for those of us who just can't quit...
[/quote]

there is one on the magic Café, somewhere. Compiled during his last run on the MyNetwork series.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Jul 12, 2010 10:59AM)
Gaddy-

I will take on the task of finding it...

While we wait...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breaking_the_Magician's_Code
Message: Posted by: brangwinj (Jul 14, 2010 02:10PM)
FYI I teach magic in an elementary school. There are many after school programs,My program is the most popular with the best attendance . The student magicians respect the art, practice and keep the secrets. Please tell me again what is your problem with this ??? Because I am an old fart and go to many Conventions and lectures a year I can learn and afford to buy any trick or illusion-- no problem . but if I teach inquisitive students Chinese sticks and many others you have some noble problem with that. Get over it !!! The students have won student tallent shows, and one student promised front row seats for his Las Vegas show , oh to be young with dreams.
Message: Posted by: Cyberqat (Jul 14, 2010 03:26PM)
Brang...

I think you are doing something noble and thank you for exposing more kids to our art. (I was going to change that word 'expose' and then decided to leave it. Exposure isn't ALWAYS a bad thing. Exposure to music. Exposure to art, etc are all *good* things and that's how I use the word here.)

Arts that don't get regular new blood die, and no one appreciates (or IMO supports) magicians as much as fellow magicians. Even if most of them don.t go on to become big performers, you have taught them a new and deeper way to appreciate otehrs' performances.
Message: Posted by: gaddy (Jul 14, 2010 06:24PM)
[quote]
On 2010-07-14 15:10, brangwinj wrote:
FYI I teach magic in an elementary school. There are many after school programs,My program is the most popular with the best attendance . The student magicians respect the art, practice and keep the secrets. Please tell me again what is your problem with this ??? Because I am an old fart and go to many Conventions and lectures a year I can learn and afford to buy any trick or illusion-- no problem . but if I teach inquisitive students Chinese sticks and many others you have some noble problem with that. Get over it !!! The students have won student tallent shows, and one student promised front row seats for his Las Vegas show , oh to be young with dreams.
[/quote]

So, if I understand correctly, these kids have [i]elected[/i] to stay after school to learn magic? It's not [i]thrust upon them[/i] instead of, say, the [i]choice[/i] to play video games or soccer?

Then I have no problem with this at all! I'm glad these kids have [i]chosen[/i] to [i]seek out[/i] someone who will teach them magic...

Don't you folks understand what I'm saying here?
Message: Posted by: Cyberqat (Jul 14, 2010 06:50PM)
Well I didn't, maybe you didn't put it very well? That last post puts a whole new spin on it.

I no longer think you're a rotten person, I just think your stirring up a tempest in a very small teapot. I haven't seen ANYONE here advocate accosting kids on the street and forcing on them reveals of illusions. Nor has anyone that I've seen suggested you should try to teach magic to a bored and uninterested audience.

Most children however have a natural curiosity and eagerness to learn something about the art. And for those who don't, I don't think anyone here minds letting them go back to vegetating in front of the boob tube instead ;)
Message: Posted by: gaddy (Jul 14, 2010 07:34PM)
[quote]
On 2010-07-14 19:50, Cyberqat wrote:
Well I didn't, maybe you didn't put it very well? That last post puts a whole new spin on it.

I no longer think you're a rotten person, I just think your stirring up a tempest in a very small teapot. I haven't seen ANYONE here advocate accosting kids on the street and forcing on them reveals of illusions. Nor has anyone that I've seen suggested you should try to teach magic to a bored and uninterested audience.

Most children however have a natural curiosity and eagerness to learn something about the art. And for those who don't, I don't think anyone here minds letting them go back to vegetating in front of the boob tube instead ;)
[/quote]

I don't really care what you think of me, or for that matter your straw man rebuttals ([i]"accosting children on the street?"[/i]) to this, relatively MINOR debate, but I'll print this for you in nice easy to comprehend quotations so you'll see that I have repeatedly held a consistent [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion]--->opinion<---[/url] on this matter:[quote]Children are introduced to the "wonders of magic" by seeing magic performed and then thinking to themselves "how can I do that?", not by being plonked-down in front of a "teacher" who then shows them, and 25 other kids, how to do the ball-and-vase. any "teacher" who thinks otherwise certainly doesn't understand what interests children...

Brian, I fully agree that teaching magic to a serious student is okay. But the sort of posts that I'm seeing simply do not qualify.[/quote][quote] I'm not about to stop someone else from learning magic, but it would take a very serious student to get me to reveal my secrets -and I'm not even sure I'm qualified to teach them. There is a world of difference between knowing how a trick is done and being able to teach that method to someone else.[/quote][quote]Also, indirectly, I'm arguing that magic should only be taught to those who seek it out,[/quote][quote]They choose to learn magic because they SAW MAGIC PERFORMED and wanted to learn how it was done.[/quote]
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Jul 14, 2010 08:09PM)
Yes, I would like an answer to Gaddy's supposition- do these kids stay after school, or do anything other than "sign up" to qualify for these magic lessons?

Further, do you consider "most popular with the best attendance" to indicate the quality of the class or the value of the education?

Jim
Message: Posted by: Cyberqat (Jul 14, 2010 08:16PM)
I see the humor intended in my post was lost, which was sad.

But this is still a tempest in a VERY small teacup and I have no wish to stir it further.
Message: Posted by: gaddy (Jul 14, 2010 09:17PM)
I'm defending an unpopular position, minor though it may be.

Ergo: All sarcasm and subtlety must be followed by multiple smileys and "LOL"'s under the 2010
"[b]I[/b]nternet [b]N[/b]ews [b]S[/b]tation [b]E[/b]xternal [b]C[/b]ontrol [b]U[/b]nderwriters [b]R[/b]egulatory [b]E[/b]ntreaties" (I.N.S.E.C.U.R.E.)
Subsection 1 Paragraph 1.)A ...

Your cooperation is appreciated! :banana:
Message: Posted by: funsway (Jul 15, 2010 05:55AM)
I used to be much more of "qualifying" person about who I taught magic to -- and why. But today a kid can walk into his local IBM circle, perform the 21 trick learned from his had and two tricks from a box purchased (eight for a dollar" at DOllar Tree. He pays his $50 IBM fee and the Local fee of $20 or so -- and then is admitted to the secret club where veryhting is shared for the asking -- Teach-ins, Lectures.

If we as experienced magciains have lowered our standards so far, how can we judge those who teach for reasons other than our own? If I could get kids to shut off their cell phone and learn interpersonal skills on-on-one I'll use any "trick" necessary to sustain their interest. If some simple magic effects is the "linch pin" I say go for it. Of course, they only get the second class if they mastered the lessons of the first class.

there might also be the chance to teach the "magic" of a condom, or dental hygene, or moderation -- or of being an idividual rather than a "me too" clone. I see our entire culture going "to hell in ahandbasket" -- and if teaching a couple of magic tricks will help break the cycle of the entilement generations please sign me up.

the most ancient prenicleps of teahcing are "attention and retention" and you aren't going to get today's youth to retain anything if you can't retain/sustain their attention for more than three minutes.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Jul 15, 2010 08:02AM)
" I see our entire culture going "to hell in ahandbasket" -- and if teaching a couple of magic tricks will help break the cycle of the entilement generations please sign me up."

Ken,

How is that not just more entitlement, really just a form of appeasement (which has been tried unsuccessfully many times). And, I missed the part where any of the "teaching" posters required mastering the first trick before being taught any more- do you really think they do that??

Jim
Message: Posted by: DWRackley (Jul 15, 2010 01:42PM)
Times have changed. I was one of those kids who did three tricks and paid the dues, but there were several older men, some very seasoned professionals, who were very eager to teach a willing student. They didn’t let me get away with sloppy work, period!

These days, even the adults have a three-second attention span, and anything that isn’t pre-mixed, pop-top, and ready to eat is going to be passed over for something less “challenging”. More thought gets put into cheating the tax-man or hacking a computer game than to actually doing something great.

We do need interested kids, because (to overwork a cliché) that’s where the next generation is coming from, but we need to screen closer than ever. If a kid wants info from me, I’ll show him something common like jumping rubber bands. In less than two minutes I’ll be able to see whether he has enough interest to warrant more goodies from me.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Jul 15, 2010 02:29PM)
DW-

What is happening to the world, and is there anything we can do beyond accept it??

As to your views, I can way more agree with "if a kid wants info from me" than teaching an entire class at once...
Message: Posted by: brangwinj (Jul 15, 2010 02:57PM)
Since I am some what in this "debate". I will answer for me alone. In my case the students pay $50 for 5 lessons. I don't need the money so they get a lot of value as I buy wholesale . also I make some 3 card montes, or find the queen and other tricks. I also donate magic books to school library to encourage independent discovery. My wife is the school Libraian and I am retired to fill in the rest of the story. I amazed at the ability of young students.
Message: Posted by: gaffed (Jul 15, 2010 05:50PM)
I’ve been watching this thread for awhile with some interest, and admittedly some amusement.
No use in getting into the YouTube thing as that is a lost cause/battle. As for the words “exposure” and “teaching” they are somewhat synonymous with each other in some respects so I’ll also leave that alone. If some [i]individual[/i] seeks out magic I’m quite confident that no one has any problem with that. After all, how did [i]you[/i] become a magician! However, teaching magic [i]en masse[/i] just doesn’t set right with me. After all, what child wouldn’t jump at a chance in seeing how some magic tricks are done, but does not necessarily wish to [b]learn[/b] magic.

Also, someone mentioned earlier that they felt guilty about having told someone where a magic store is, and about online magic dealers. Now that comment [b]really[/b] amused me! My God, magic stores, and or magic online stores/dealers are not exactly an underground secret for heaven’s sake! Many years ago I used to frequent Magic Inc. here in Chicago when it was owned by Jay Marshal and his wife Francis. It wasn’t hidden underground, or barred up like some 1920’s speak easy where one needed a password to enter! As for online magic dealers, all one has to do is simply enter the word “magic” on Google and you’ll end up with a plethora of magic dealers, and probably come up with this forum site! What one does after that is their business, and I believe its called free enterprise. Whatever….exposure happens, always has, and always will. DEAL with it. ;)
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Jul 15, 2010 06:44PM)
Brangwinj-

For me, the fact that a fee is charged makes a lot of difference- at least they have to initiate the desire and come up with the funds. I understand what you are doing much better now.

gaffed- I agree with you. I see nothing wrong with directing someone who asks to where they can enter the magic community and detest exposing magic "en masse" without being asked, or even begged, to do so. Good points you make...

Jim
Message: Posted by: ralphs007 (Jul 15, 2010 07:42PM)
Gaffed
quote
Also, someone mentioned earlier that they felt guilty about having told someone where a magic store is, and about online magic dealers. Now that comment really amused me! My God, magic stores, and or magic online stores/dealers are not exactly an underground secret for heaven’s sake!
I never said I felt guilty. I said I regret helping them. Had I not recommended Philly Magic to this person they would have never pursued this on there own.I live in a suburb of Philly,the only magic shops to be found twenty years ago were in the city.So at the time it was an underground haven,cause he had no clue where to go.The clown I helped has long been out of magic but exposed a lot in the little time he was involved.
As far as online magic dealers,if there interested they'll find them . But I'm not going to tell everyone who shows a little interest to google an online magic shop!

Ralph
Message: Posted by: rklew64 (Jul 15, 2010 09:28PM)
My guess is that the profile of most members here are from a time when magic was respected and was treated with integrity. That time is long gone.
Enjoy what you do in your community and for your own circle.
Magic is not what it used to be. Too many laypeople are so jaded with anything.
Kids and young adults are too entitled, arrogant, lazy, and self -centered all raised by helicopter parents in the last 15-20 years. Yes, very sad.
Message: Posted by: gaffed (Jul 15, 2010 10:47PM)
[quote]
On 2010-07-15 20:42, ralphs007 wrote:

I never said I felt guilty. I said I regret helping them. Had I not recommended Philly Magic to this person they would have never pursued this on there own.
[/quote]

Noted, and retracted. However, I certainly would not feel any regret about it. I could give a few past examples where I have divulged a few tricks to close friends, but they have forgotten about them. Years later I did the same effect while they were present, and they were dumbfounded! Just a simple example of having no true interest in magic, and therefore they forgot all about it. Maybe later I'll pass on two of the stories where this has happened and I was quite amazed by it.
Message: Posted by: BrianMillerMagic (Jul 24, 2010 03:15PM)
Not to stir this topic up again, since it was a bit of a heated debate, but this was just sent to me today:

"Your magic camp changed my son's life. [A]s a fourteen year old with a learning disability and attention deficit disorder, [he] was struggling with self esteem issues and social interactions skills. Magic has given him confidence and taught him the rewards of consistent practice and focus. [He] has spent many hours entertaining children and adults with disabilities and spends every Christmas visiting elderly in a nearby nursing home who have no family. [He] is successful in school and plans on becoming certified as an EMT after completing high school."
-Karin

[i]That[/i] is why we teach magic. At least, that's why I do.

Out of respect to my student, I have chosen to keep his name and their last name anonymous publicly.

Brian
Message: Posted by: gaddy (Jul 24, 2010 05:47PM)
Again, and for about the 20th time: I have no problem with people teaching or learning magic.

It's when that "teaching" is basically [b]exposing[/b] magic methodology to a room full of disinterested students or campers who'd just as soon be learning woodworking, or playing basketball that I take exception.[quote]"Kids! Today you can either take a math quiz, [i][b]or[/b][/i] you can watch me show you how this "Ball and Vase" trick works and then I'll show you how that cool "Coloring Book" that your birthday party magician did last year works too! What do you say, kids?!?!?!"[/quote]Uh huh... I figured as much.

Is this so hard to understand?
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Jul 24, 2010 06:08PM)
That is a really inspiring story, Brian, and I am sure you didn't just foist magic on those who could care less. Even if you did, though, this [b]one[/b] success may have balanced it out. Man, it is confusing, because I really feel just as gaddy on this topic...
Message: Posted by: mindguru (Aug 6, 2010 08:30PM)
The truth is that teaching is where the money is, many make more teaching than they ever did performing.
Message: Posted by: mindguru (Aug 6, 2010 08:39PM)
The internet has given those who wish to teach, a host of new opportunities they never would have had before.