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Topic: Zip/cable ties
Message: Posted by: jskalon (Jul 12, 2010 11:01PM)
OK. I have a question about 3 of the zip/cable tie escapes.
Is anyone familiar enough with Kenton Knepper's Black Tie, Aaron Smith's Poor Boy Zip Tie Escape, and Joe Monti's Original Thumb Tie to give a comparison without exposing the method? Any preferences. I was interested in buying The Poor Boy, but got side tracked. Now before I purchase one I am interested in any feedback you guys could give me. I would buy all three if I could swing it. Those days are gone (at least for now).
Thanks,
Jack
Message: Posted by: jay leslie (Jul 12, 2010 11:54PM)
Tthere are other twist tie escapes, the Red Tape Escape and thumb stocks or thumb cuffs too.

What I'm really asking is about your timeline, technical needs and style and will you work with materials appropriate to that particular routine/escape or just want to stick to the three you mentioned?
Message: Posted by: Roslyn (Jul 13, 2010 12:10AM)
Poor Boy isn't just a thumb tie type escape. In fact you can apply this to numerous ties placed on the arms, fingers and thumbs.

If you're looking for simply a thumb tie then also consider Losander's Chain Breaker. A thumb tie using electrician's tape. It's more of a magic effect than an escape, but I like it.
Message: Posted by: Harley Newman (Jul 13, 2010 06:38AM)
It's all in how you play it.
Message: Posted by: jskalon (Jul 13, 2010 08:46AM)
Thanks everyone.
I am really interested in the idea of using the zip ties. As far as other methods, I have the Jaspernese Thumb Tie, Jim Ryan's method, and the methods in Tarbell.
Aaron Smith sparked my interested with zip ties with his Poor Boy. Like I said earlier, I was going to get it and kind of got side tracked. Now Joe Monti has his version out. My main requirements are to be able to do an un-gaffed in/out routine.
As far as the regular (string/rope/etc) thumb ties, Jim Ryan's (to me) is the most simple and direct method.

Jay, I don't have a specific time line, this is something that I would like to add to my arsenal. In the past I have used the shackles as an in/out effect and have also performed Siberian Chain escape. While I am open to all methods, the zip tie is what I am really after. I prefer a comedic approach and an un-gaffed method.
Again, Thanks to everyone for the input.
Jack
Message: Posted by: Harley Newman (Jul 13, 2010 09:15AM)
Poor Boy is pretty straightforward, uncomplicated. Kenton, as always, has some good ideas, and the handling is a bit more...complicated isn't quite the right word...involved.
Message: Posted by: jskalon (Jul 13, 2010 12:08PM)
Thanks for the info Harley.
Also, I assume everyone knows I am talking about the ties that the police are using as handcuffs and not the garbage bag twist ties.
I know the garbage bag type twist ties will work for both Ryan's and Jaspernese ties.
Message: Posted by: dave_matkin (Jul 14, 2010 02:22PM)
I didn't realise Kenton was involved with the poor boy.

I have in the past had converstions with Wolflock (where ever he be now) and his work on zip ties is pretty cool! HUrts like hell - but then you have to act less!
Message: Posted by: Harley Newman (Jul 14, 2010 03:10PM)
Dave, Kenton has his own approach. Poor Boy is simpler.
Message: Posted by: dave_matkin (Jul 14, 2010 05:19PM)
Hey I am easily confused remember KISS me!

OR KISS for me rather ....

Poor boy is simpler (i have Kentons back tie and thought that was fairly "simple" or am I not reading between the lines enough?

My interest is perked!
Message: Posted by: DavidKim (Jul 15, 2010 02:34AM)
I also pretty interested in using zip ties for my escape show. However, I am also interested to know about the different of the zip ties escapes in the market now.

Well, I got a few questions in mind, hopefully someone can help answer using the poor boy's method and Kenton's method.

1) I pressume both must be striped by the audience. Which one can provide a "In Out" routine easier, which makes the performer focus on the comedy part than trying to do the escape?

2) Method wise, which one provides more method to escape if one of it doesn't work?

3) I thinking of zip tying onto an object (like a railing or door handle), will both methods still work?

Some information will allow me to think further into putting it into my routine.

Thanks for all the help in advance.
Message: Posted by: Roslyn (Jul 15, 2010 06:32AM)
I can't remember Kenton's method, I read it once many years ago and then sold it to Dave. But I did buy Poor Boy recently and can say that unless you're a complete fool it won't go wrong.

It could be used for an in/out routine and you could also be tied to a post (for example) and still escape.

The Poor Boy has some great subtleties that convince the specs that all is fair.

You're not limited to just one tie either. You could use many ties all at once for a spectacular tie escape.
Message: Posted by: dave_matkin (Jul 15, 2010 02:33PM)
Hi David ....

First off ... and no offence meant BUT …. Darn me if you’re English is nearly as bad as mine! :) But not quite! ;) LOL

It’s a little stilted but I think I know where you are coming from.

[quote]
On 2010-07-15 03:34, DavidKim wrote:
I also pretty interested in using zip ties for my escape show. However, I am also interested to know about the different of the zip ties escapes in the market now.
Thanks for all the help in advance.
[/quote]

Can’t comment on Poor boy but in relation to Kenton’s Black tie

[quote]
On 2010-07-15 03:34, DavidKim wrote:

1) I pressume both must be striped by the audience. Which one can provide a "In Out" routine easier, which makes the performer focus on the comedy part than trying to do the escape?
[/quote]

Not entirely sure what you mean but be stripped – you can do it wearing clothes or named (Kenton’s that is). Unless you don’t mean strip as in take off clothes.

If you mean pulled tight by the spectator then Yes Kenton’s can be done up by the spectator and it is REALLY tight! Blood stopping so …… and still easy to get out of and back in to (if you really want to go that way).


[quote]
On 2010-07-15 03:34, DavidKim wrote:

2) Method wise, which one provides more method to escape if one of it doesn't work?
[/quote]

You can’t not get out with Kenton’s method unless you really mess it up – similar to what Ros said about poor boy. If you mess it up you don’t deserve to be an escapist!





[quote]
On 2010-07-15 03:34, DavidKim wrote:

3) I thinking of zip tying onto an object (like a railing or door handle), will both methods still work?
[/quote]

YOU could do that kind of penetration idea. If you are after the “solid object through binding” kind of effect you may also want to look at:-

• Jay Lesley’s psychic penetration last item on this link: http://www.cannonsgreatescapes.com/spectacular_2.html
• Losander’s chain breaker (FANTASTIC)

Hope this helps a little?

Take care Dave
Message: Posted by: DavidKim (Jul 15, 2010 11:12PM)
Yes Yes,

That certainly help, after reading your post, I do realise how bad my english is. LOL!! That's the problem with Singlish in Singapore, too much chinese and english and malay, you ended up with junk english.

But I try my best to correct myself thanks.

I certainly brainstorm on the ideas more, now that I have much more visual aspect of what you guys meant, and I meant Strapped. not Stripped.. LOL!! Sorry for the bad english really.

I not really into "magic" kind of escape, other than the comedy in out routine. For a finale of the show, my hand will be binded to a handle outside of a box, (I inside the box), so 1 hand is binded while the other can access the outside hand with another hole on the side. So basically, I cannot see the binding process.

So another quick question will be, must I have vision on the binding process on either of the methods available?
Message: Posted by: Roslyn (Jul 16, 2010 12:35AM)
You don't need to see the ties in poor boy to be able to escape.

You would have to work on a means of covering the ties so that the method isn't exposed. Usually this is achieved with your own body. But since you're in a box and the audience can only see your hands then you can't do this. Also you would want someone to keep an eye on your spectators since you won't be able to manage your spec quite as well from inside a box.
Message: Posted by: DavidKim (Jul 16, 2010 03:07AM)
Totally agree, that is the hardest part in terms of doing the escape. Since I cannot see them, it is very hard to control them from inside. Rest assured my assistant will be outside to keep a lookout.

But accidents do happen and blood and bruises will appear.. Zzz..
Message: Posted by: Roslyn (Jul 16, 2010 04:39AM)
Without exposing the method, poor boy needs you to be in control during the binding process for it to work effectively.

Done right you hear the ties tighten as well as see it and the specs can tug and check it... But only if you make the conditions correctly.
Message: Posted by: safuto (Jul 22, 2010 06:46AM)
Great Topic.
I've been doing the Thumb Tie routine for 25 years with Zip Ties and the routine replaces my strait jacket. It's that strong. I am finally releasing my personal routine on DVD August 1st. Please check out http://www.thumbtie.com for info and video clip.
I hope serious "thumb tiers" like it :)
Love all your posts.
Joe Monti
Message: Posted by: Roslyn (Jul 22, 2010 03:36PM)
Hey!

Saw the performance on your site, looks good!

Can you use this method to restrain other body parts (wrists, ankles etc...) or is this solely a thumb tie?

Cheers,

Ros
Message: Posted by: DavidKim (Jul 22, 2010 10:41PM)
Nice.. That is great.

But I wondering about situation where like you are doing for carnival. Where getting an audience up can be an issue.

I have perform for places that audience are scarce, and have to get my assistant up to do the work. Like working in a dead city. LOL!!
Message: Posted by: Roslyn (Jul 23, 2010 02:22AM)
Performing where there's no audience? Isn't that time to pack up and go home?

Seriously though, in that situation you just wouldn't use this type of material. Have a smaller show. Maybe some close-up. Get everyone in tight. The same as you would for a street show.

With regards to this effect, all you really need is two people. If you are to perform it this way. Depending on the speed you could do the escape and replace you don't have to use cover.

For small groups I've done Chain Breaker and thumbcuffs with no cover. A little misdirection and you're good to go.
Message: Posted by: DavidKim (Jul 23, 2010 02:41AM)
Oh no no..

I paid to be there. Haha.. at few occasions, there will be event company that runs multiple shows at different malls, and some malls in Singapore, are just dead city. Don't ask me why.

So there are chances where, there is a stage, there is a celebrity host, there are performances going on, even prizes, but there is no one really around. And the show still goes on, because we are paid to do the show. But in this kind of situation, I use my assistant to do what the audience will do.

I also wish can pack up and go home, but if the event people say go on with the show, we have to do it, cause we are being paid.
Message: Posted by: Roslyn (Jul 23, 2010 05:43AM)
Blimey! Not good!! Never had a show with NOBODY watching. Isn't that called rehearsal? :D

I don't think I'd like that.

I've had shows with only a few people in the crowd. 7 or 8 people. Much the same kind of venue you talk about. It's not happened often, but on the odd occasion where there are very few people I get them all on stage with me and perform my show up close just to them.

Many times the audience will build from here. But whether it does or doesn't who cares? The few on stage have had a good time.

If it's as dire as it seems just take the money and run!!!
Message: Posted by: dave_matkin (Jul 23, 2010 05:57PM)
I know a funny story about Ken and an "audience"......


............ but its not my place to tell!
Message: Posted by: safuto (Jul 24, 2010 06:09AM)
Ros,
For now only the thumbs :)
I've tried so many variations using more zip ties, bigger zip ties, different colored zip ties, thumbs and wrist, etc. This version seems to work because of the simplicity and clarity.
When there is no one I have used the microphone to link through and on after I leaned over the stage to be bound as well as an unusual routine wherein I try to remove my coat after "mistakenly" being Thumb Tied.
So many variations because the rigidity of the zip ties allow for a beat more "play".
Joe Monti
Message: Posted by: Roslyn (Jul 28, 2010 11:28AM)
Last weekend I put Poor Boy to the test and used it in an arena stunt. I didn't use the two tie method but the single tie version. It's mentioned in a few lines near the end of the instructions and is by far the better of the two.

Where as the two tie method needs audience management, as I mention above, the single tie version is far more direct.

In fact the spec can make it as tight as they wish... And they do... Your hands go from red to purple in an instant. The thing's seriously tight!

Yet you can escape in seconds, useful when your arms are being ripped off by two timber trucks.

I didn't use cover, I was in an arena though. So if you're doing it close up you may want to come up with something. Then again you may not. It's not essential, just something to ponder.

My advice, if you were thinking of adding a zip tie escape to your show get Poor Boy. 2 methods, both great, plus they can be used as finger/thumb ties too for next to no money.

You simply can't lose!
Message: Posted by: Harley Newman (Jul 28, 2010 11:37AM)
Timber trucks? Nice!
Message: Posted by: Roslyn (Jul 28, 2010 12:45PM)
Massive things. I asked for two big trucks, they said what tonnage, I said doesn't matter the bigger the better, they gave me two monsters each with a winch that can pull over 30 tonnes... It was these winches that were attached to my arms. Was fun. Painful, but fun ;)
Message: Posted by: Harley Newman (Jul 28, 2010 01:05PM)
Just as long as you knew winch one was winch.
Message: Posted by: Roslyn (Jul 28, 2010 03:10PM)
LOL!!! I was expecting that sort of comment from Dave :)

Now you've used that one up I dread to think what he'll come up with...
Message: Posted by: Harley Newman (Jul 28, 2010 03:23PM)
I hoped it'd make you wince.
Message: Posted by: dave_matkin (Jul 31, 2010 05:53AM)
[quote]
On 2010-07-28 16:10, Roslyn wrote:
LOL!!! I was expecting that sort of comment from Dave :)

Now you've used that one up I dread to think what he'll come up with...
[/quote]

I am sure I can hoist something up from the depths of my imagination.

It just may take a few moments to get the choker on, the anchor up and then I will be able to start cranking out the usual stupidity for me. And before long, you know, we will all gliding along, spooling out the puns and before you know it we will have elevated the thread to a new height in pun-ology!
Message: Posted by: Roslyn (Jul 31, 2010 12:34PM)
Something none of us can escape from.
Message: Posted by: Wolflock (Sep 3, 2010 05:19AM)
I am Still here Dave. Just Not as often.


Cable ties with objects like Door Handles and Poles etc are easier as they allow for a bit more movement. You will still take a little skin off with my routines. But it will be genuine and Very visual.
Message: Posted by: jskalon (Apr 26, 2016 02:55AM)
Someone just asked me about my copy of the Jaspernese Thumb Tie.
You can buy it from Magic Inc. That is where I bought mine.
Message: Posted by: dave_matkin (Apr 29, 2016 03:03PM)
Wow old thread!