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Topic: Resetting after poker deals
Message: Posted by: gdw (Aug 20, 2010 10:49AM)
Hi everyone.

I am still relatively new to stack work, but I have been playing a lot with resetting the stack after deals of different hands with different number of cards.

I started doing this with Tamariz's Super Poker. Of course in Tamariz's Mnemonica, he discusses resetting after dealing X hands of Y cards by redealing Y hands with X cards.

With Super Poker, or 4 hands of 5 cards, if all cards are dealt face up, you can reset by collecting the hands, face up, first your/dealer's hand placing it onto the thrid hand (hand farthest to your right) then those onto the second, then those onto the first, and then simply doing two out faro's with the dealt cards.

I find this to be a wonderful reset, compared to the re-dealing procedure which takes time, and does not really progress the performance from the spectator's view. Especially if you are doing repeat deals with repeat resets like dealing Any Hand Called For.

What I am looking for is any thoughts on similar shuffling based resets for different numbers of hands/cards.
Right now, I have a need for resetting 5 hands of 5 cards, but, I am sure, will eventually have a need for other combinations.

I like the method of re-dealing in that it is one simple "formula," if you will, that can be applied to all deals, but as mentioned, the length, and repetitiveness of it if doing multiple deal routines is what makes it unappealing.

Just for completeness, I'll mention that some routines make use of this re-dealing as part of the routine. One of my favourites is the gambling demonstration from Guy Hollingworth's book, Drawing Room Deceptions. I do not think that it specifically uses the formula that Tamariz mentions, but it incorporates the re-delaing resetting into the routine, making each deal a phase of the routine, demonstrating different dealing techniques to give yourself the winning hand.
As mentioned, however, this simply does not work for all routines.

Thanks
Glenn
Message: Posted by: Steven Keyl (Aug 20, 2010 11:33AM)
I have no specific answer to your question (so why am I posting, then?) but I do have a recommendation for you. If you look at Rusduck's Cardiste many of the effects are stacked poker deals. In most cases they are progressive deal stacks.

One such stack has the performer deal out 5 cards to X hands, all hands are pretty good but dealer beats them all. Pick up all the cards (and of course false shuffle), redeal and everyone has better hands, but the dealer beats them all again. After a total of 4 or 5 deals (where the dealer wins each time with a DIFFERENT hand) the deck is reset. May not be what you're looking for but it creates a compelling reason for the multiple deal that becomes MORE interesting with each deal--at least it should.
Message: Posted by: The Burnaby Kid (Aug 20, 2010 06:31PM)
Manner of Reset is going to be relative to the State of Reset you're aiming for, plus your skill level. For instance, you could theoretically use Faros to reset a deal for two or four hands, and if you're willing to deal off the bottom (maybe that's part of the presentation (a la some Martin/Gardner variants)?) you could reset for five hands pretty easily using a combination of the above.

Another possibility might be some sort of convoluted stack which has two deals built into it, and in dealing out one, you're resetting the other, if that makes any sense. Nothing specific comes to mind, unfortunately.

Another one might involve repositioning cards within the hands after the deal as you show them to the audience, as if to clarify what was dealt.

Can we get more information on your needs?
Message: Posted by: gdw (Aug 22, 2010 02:28AM)
Well, my current interest is resetting after dealing five hands in an "any hand called for" routine.

The nature of the routine is such that you deal the hand called for, no surprise there, so working a deal into the result of a previous deal doesn't really work sadly.

The finale, however, is always the royal flush, which is the odd deal out in that it involves five hands rather than four.

As mentioned it is easy to reset four hands with two out faros, so I am looking for a similar reset for five hands of five cards. Preferably that looks like I am shuffling, rather than dealing like in the reset's Tamariz suggests
Message: Posted by: nlokers (Aug 22, 2010 09:08PM)
I'm sure this isn't the best solution, but I have in the past dealt out the cards for the poker deal in such a way that they are still in order. So put down the first card for the first hand, the first card for the second hand on top and next to it and continue for all 5 hands, then deal a second row that is all of the hands second card.
Message: Posted by: Eric Richardson (Aug 22, 2010 10:37PM)
Check out Simon Aronson's "Routine Maintenance" in his book Try The Impossible. He uses a brilliant reset strategy that has many applications but he addresses exactly what you desire. It even can be used for deals that are different than 5X5. You can also check out his work in this area on his L&L DVD series (Vol. 3).

Eric
Message: Posted by: tomboston (Aug 23, 2010 01:41PM)
Glenn,

I have also been studying "Any Poker Hand Called For" in Mnemonica and had the same concerns you have regarding the resets between hands. Currently, I am just re-dealing each hand as Tamariz suggests, but I agree after multiple hands it seems too lengthy. I have tried the 2 outfaro method for the 4 hand deal and it works well but if you deal the cards face down like Tamariz suggests you must singly run the 20 card packet. In addition my faros with the packets are not always perfect!

I have also tried doing 1 outfaro, running 10 cards and then doing a milk-build shuffle. It accomplishes the same thing but with a little more variety of shuffles.

As for the 5 hand deal, I have not been able to come up with a method that appears like shuffling that you are looking for.

Just curious, are you using Tamariz's method for producing the royal flush? It uses only a 3 handed deal. (Unless I missed something in Mnemonica)

I did see Tamariz do his "any hand called for" routine -- it is posted somewhere on YouTube -- and I recall him using his re-dealing method as he was talking to the audience.

Tom
Message: Posted by: gdw (Aug 24, 2010 01:23PM)
I'm actually using a different stack that also allows to do the routine, which is why I end up with doing 5 hands for the royal.

Eric Richardson, thanks for the suggestion, I'll have to look that up.
Message: Posted by: gdw (Aug 25, 2010 09:18PM)
Ok, although I have not yet checked out Aronson's "Routine Maintenance," I have come up with a reset for the 5x5 deal.

Essentially, you first put the dealer's hand on the bottom of the deck, then collect the remaining four hands, right to left (dealt face up, tough you could do it face down and it would actually eliminate the first step.) You run these twenty cards (this is the part that can be skipped if dealt face down, though you would have to reverse the order of the dealers hand before placing it on the bottom of the deck, unless you dealt everyone else's hand face down, and the dealer's hand face up) and then out faro them twice.
Then, with the twenty cards on top of the deck, you run them again, milking one of the bottom cards every fourth card, starting with the first card. So it would be milk, 2, 3, 4, milk, 2, 3, 4, etc until you have milked 5 times.

The stack is now reset.

So, from the audiences perspective, it just looks like you collect the hands, do an over hand (or not depending on how you dealt the cards) two butting the cards together shuffles, and one more overhand shuffle.

Also, in the context of the routine I am doing this works well as it is the end of the routine, so I have more time to casually shuffle, unlike when I am in between deals.

I am still going to look into Aronson's "Routine Maintenance" as I would love more information on resetting in general.
Message: Posted by: tomboston (Aug 27, 2010 11:48AM)
Glenn,
That is a great solution! Your idea has helped me figure out a way to reset the three hand royal flush deal in Mnemonica without re-dealing. Now I will feel much more comfortable performing this routine. Thanks for the great thinking!
Tom
Message: Posted by: gdw (Aug 27, 2010 12:50PM)
[quote]
On 2010-08-27 12:48, tomboston wrote:
Glenn,
That is a great solution! Your idea has helped me figure out a way to reset the three hand royal flush deal in Mnemonica without re-dealing. Now I will feel much more comfortable performing this routine. Thanks for the great thinking!
Tom
[/quote]

Hmm, how do you do that? I'm sure if I thought about it I could work out a method, but, well, I'm lazy today.
Message: Posted by: tomboston (Aug 30, 2010 04:42PM)
Your idea of putting the dealer's hand on the bottom of the deck is what helped me figure out how to reset the 3 hand royal flush deal from Mnemonica:
After going through the 3 hands as per Tamariz's instructions:
1)Reverse count the dealer's hand and place on bottom of deck.
2)Gather the 2 face up hands, first over second, turn face down, run 5 and place on top.
3)Klondike shuffle those 10 cards back onto the top of the deck (i.e. milk all the cards in the packet)
4)With whole deck, milk, run, milk, run.... 5 times.

You can replace steps 2 and 3 with one out-faro but I find it next to impossible to faro with such small packets.

It seems like a lot but with practice I think it will just look like several different shuffles to the spectators.

Tom
Message: Posted by: gdw (Aug 30, 2010 09:16PM)
[quote]
On 2010-08-30 17:42, tomboston wrote:
Your idea of putting the dealer's hand on the bottom of the deck is what helped me figure out how to reset the 3 hand royal flush deal from Mnemonica:
After going through the 3 hands as per Tamariz's instructions:
1)Reverse count the dealer's hand and place on bottom of deck.
2)Gather the 2 face up hands, first over second, turn face down, run 5 and place on top.
3)Klondike shuffle those 10 cards back onto the top of the deck (i.e. milk all the cards in the packet)
4)With whole deck, milk, run, milk, run.... 5 times.

You can replace steps 2 and 3 with one out-faro but I find it next to impossible to faro with such small packets.

It seems like a lot but with practice I think it will just look like several different shuffles to the spectators.

Tom
[/quote]

Ah, nice work. Glad I could help.

One quick note, if doing this where you actually have the hands called, rather than, for example, dealing them in sequence, then make sure that you have some patter to go with the resetting shuffles, and do NOT ask for the next hand BEFORE you do the shuffles.

Especially with faro, as it looks like you are meticulously stacking the next hand.

Of course, if you are doing a gambling demonstration and presenting as if you are stacking, then I guess that could work.
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Aug 30, 2010 09:33PM)
[quote]On 2010-08-20 11:49, gdw wrote:
I started doing this with Tamariz's Super Poker. Of course in Tamariz's Mnemonica, he discusses resetting after dealing X hands of Y cards by redealing Y hands with X cards.[/quote]
Note that if you deal the first X hands face-down, you need to deal the next Y hands [i] face-up[/i] to restore the order (after gathering up the hands in order, of course).