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Topic: Dove loops
Message: Posted by: dahih beik (Aug 21, 2010 05:02PM)
What is the best thread used for dove loops? I use monofilm or fishing line, but lately I have discovered FireLine Braided Bead Thread from BeadSmith. It looks very interesting, strong and fine. Has anybody tried it? Your answer would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Message: Posted by: MikeHMagic (Aug 21, 2010 06:41PM)
I use wire that is sold for stringing beads. It's thin, black & able to hold a shape.
Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (Aug 22, 2010 08:19PM)
This is a good wire to use with your dove bags, from Daytona Magic.
Message: Posted by: Dave Scribner (Aug 22, 2010 08:50PM)
First of all, if you are going to use Andy Amyx's wire noted above, why not order it directly from Andy? He is a member here.

The subject of monofilament versus wire has been discussed here several times. Using Fireline braided line is overkill. Remember you are connected to a dove. All you need is normal 4 or 6lb at most test monofilament line.

The decision to use monofilament or wire is a personal choice and many times comes down to how you want to attach your loops to your jacket. Wire can be bent or special holders can be used whereas monofilament must be held in place with some type of holder.

Wire doesn't have to be treated for color but monofilament must be shaded to reduce light reflection.

By the way, if you use wire there are several options besides Andy Amyx's as listed about. You can use floral wire, or wire available in most hardware stores or jewerlry stringing wire with a guage of 20.
Message: Posted by: dahih beik (Aug 23, 2010 01:11AM)
Hi Mr. Dave, why do say that it is over kill? The truth is that I didn't decide on changing my fishing line to this new thread but I find it very strong, and it easily assumes any shape you give them. They are almost invisible.
Message: Posted by: Lavey (Aug 23, 2010 01:44AM)
I use Andy's wire for a loop and fix them with a fishing line on the dove bag. I use Dan Sperry's Loop Holders to hold everything on place.
Message: Posted by: Dave Scribner (Aug 23, 2010 05:40AM)
Dahih beik, by over kill I meant that fireline is very strong but not necessary for dove loops. Normal monofilament line is fine at only a 4-6 lb test capacity. You don't need braided or super strong line.

Lavey, I too use wire with a line to the dove bag. I've used both Dan's holders and P&A silks holders for this hookup.
Message: Posted by: dahih beik (Aug 23, 2010 10:10AM)
Dave , for me the fire line was a discovery not for its strength only buy for its invisibility and easy shaping quality , I say discovery because you don t imagine how difficult for me to find these stuff in bethlehem palestine that's were I live I m alwaye interested in trying everything so ill by andye wire and take a look thanks
Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (Aug 23, 2010 01:04PM)
There are different times you may want to use different type of wire or nylon. Shamada uses wire loops but they are totally hidden from view. See his Dove video for the technique. Otherwise 10 pound clear nylon is good for exposed loops.

Channing Pollack/James Dimmare use thin music wire with gun dye for stiffer wire that you may want grab quickly.

There is really no one solution for all the different methods. I spent 5 years researching this, this was before videos and the internet. I spent over $500 in materials and information just looking for the proper methods.

I found that floral wire will break after repeated use and you will never know when that will happen. Music wire and fishing line will not, and that is why I perfer these over may other wires. Even though floral wire acts just like fishing line when it has weight on it, I just do not want the worry of it breaking at the wrong time.
Message: Posted by: Regan (Aug 23, 2010 01:40PM)
I like 6-8# monofiliment best overall, but I found some fishing leader made of braided wire that I am experimenting with. I really like it so far. I believe it may be similar to what Bill is calling "music" wire.

Bill, are you meaning wire that is used for guitar or piano strings?

This fishing leader wire I am referring to is braided, or wound. It is much lighter than any wound guitar or piano string I have seen. I like the fact that it can be twisted in such a way to form a loop that kind of curls in one direction. One of my Dove videos talks about this 'curling'. I'm not for sure, but I belive it may be Greg Frewin. It seems to be very, very strong, and I believe it will hold up as well or better than anything else, as far as breaking goes. The only type I could find had a dull, silvery-like finish. I will have to color it somehow if I do decide to use it in shows.

You may want to look into this type of wire, or not. As Dave, Bill, and others have shown, their are a lot of choices and a lot of it boils down to situations and personal preferences.

Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (Aug 23, 2010 02:40PM)
It also boils down to being safe for the bird.

Yes, I am speaking of Piano wire, it is very strong and does not bend easily. That is what comes on Norm Nielsen Dove Bags. Music Wire can be obtained to a very thin thickness, like a hair. If you do not want to purchase a whole roll of piano wire, then the thinest guitar wire may work and you can buy them one at time. Some use the loop on the guitar wire as release for the Channing Pollack doube dove production. Using it as a needle and attached to the clothing for the automatic releas. Some perfer the the one hand release opening type of bags, but there is a very slight difference in the production using the needle method over the one hand release.

Dye wire by using gun black sold at most all gun stores. It is a chemical which changes the wire to black. It is chemical and the wire gets worm during the very quick process. Wipe and wash the wire afterwords, tape the ends to not harm the bird, as usually you will only be able to twist the wire ends, not knot them.
Message: Posted by: Dave Scribner (Aug 23, 2010 07:08PM)
Bill is right that there is no one particular answer to this question. However, I do believe that 10lb test monofilament is way too heavy for the job. It's a dove and very light. a 6lb test line should be just fine.

There are times though that wire is more suitable. It all depends on the effect and how much pressure will be exerted on the loop. Wire guage should be about 20 guage as I've mentioned before. You really want the wire to bend or at least be somewhat flexible during the production.

I've used floral wire in the past and again agree with Bill. It does have a tendency to break over time. It is green in color but turns black when held over a flame. Just wipe it down after burning. I consider myself somewhat anal in this regard. If I've been rehearsing prior to a show, I change the loop before the gig so it's fresh and has no chance of breaking. I change the loops after 5 performances regardless. I don't need any surprises during a show.
Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (Aug 23, 2010 07:14PM)
I tried the floral wire and wore a green tux to match. That is how I solved the color thing.

I did find black wire at the craft store and heavy black wire at the hardware store.

The stiff music wire is more for the direct steal like Johnny Thompson uses.

I would use a good mix to keep the steals all different in handling. Worked for me.
Message: Posted by: Regan (Aug 24, 2010 10:20AM)
Bill, great tip on the gun black. I used to have some that was a blackish-blueish dye, but it was called "Gun Blue". Is that the same as "Gun Black"? Or is it available in different colors?

I play guitar, so I have access to plenty of smalled-guaged strings. I don't thonk I would like to use it for loops. It is tough, but it can kink and it is fairly stiff. I thnk it would be excellent for pinning the hinged, auto-release type dove bags. The fishing leader wire I found was wound, kind of like the larger-gauged guitar strings, but it is very small and much more flexible.
Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (Aug 24, 2010 12:51PM)
Regan, not being a gun person, I have not the knowledge and did not go to a gun shop yet to check it out. I do know that it was known as "Gun Blue", but when I watched the DVD of of James Dimmare he called it "Gun Black" so I was using his terminology. To me the guns I seen are black, and in the army my rifle metal parts were actually gray color. So maybe there is several colors, I do not know positively though. Or, it could be that the chemical reaction is such a dark blue that it looks black. I really do not know at this point. It can be easily answered by visiting a guy shop.

Also, a stated it is more for the "Direct Steal" not the steals of balling up the silk moves. It is stiff for a reason, as it stays were it is suppose to. This line is very short compared to other methods.
Message: Posted by: Michael J. Douglas (Aug 24, 2010 03:45PM)
There may be a difference between the chemicals used in gun blue and gun black kits, but treating the wire for loops is called "bluing" from what I know. It's been awhile since I watched the Dimmare DVD, so I wouldn't want to comment on it. Maybe he'll pop in here to say.

A quick search turned up a Wiki article that said: [i]"Some prefer to call thin coatings of black oxide by the name gun bluing, and to call heavier coatings by the name black oxide, but they are both the same chemical conversion process for providing true gun bluing."[/i]

Maybe this has something to do with the name difference, but I don't know. The article also states that bluing only works on steel or stainless steel and not on non-ferrous material. Aluminum, it states, will develop an "uneven staining," so that may actually work in your favor as more of a camouflaged effect.
Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (Aug 24, 2010 04:09PM)
The only thing missing from the Dimmare video is the size wire he was using and the brand name. He said he found it at an ordinary hardware store, but I never have. When they took a close up of the package, it was so blurred I could not read the size or brand, and James did not mention it. It is super video on Channing Pollack's dove steal, which I had this information when I spent over $500 looking for the correct methods for dove production back in the 1980's.
Message: Posted by: Michael J. Douglas (Aug 24, 2010 04:22PM)
Yeah, one of the DVDs also has Billy McComb explaining his Gypsy Thread handling. He said he had found the best thread and had a bag of it, but he never gave the name. After freeze-framing, I finally made out part of the name, and then spent a long time searching online. Turns out, the stuff was no longer made! Ugh!
Message: Posted by: Dave Scribner (Aug 25, 2010 09:02AM)
Once again, this all comes down to personal preferrence. Some like wire, some like monofilament some like both. Which wire is up to the individual. From my experience, Andy's wire or that purchased from a hardware store are perfect for loops. For use with invisible harnesses however, monofilamet is the way to go.

The use of wire for closing a harness is fine but think of this. You have a stiff piece of piano or guitar wire threaded through the bag. The production is made and that wire drops unseen under the coat where it "can" pierce your clothing or stick you like a pin. The same method of closure can be accomplished using monofilament and a needle to thread it into the bag. Once produced, the monofilament just lays unseen and without any danger to anything.

Just my thoughts here. In dove magic, there really isn't always a black and white answer to what is best.
Message: Posted by: Regan (Aug 25, 2010 09:20AM)
Thanks guys for clearing up the gun blue-black thing. I suspect it is the same thing, but I'll check further one of these days. I think I still have some of my old gun blue dye somewhere around here. If I can locate it I may test it out and see what I can with some of my wire. I have several types, but I forget what they are made from. I have plenty to do some testing with though. I'm glad Bill reminded me about this stuff!
Message: Posted by: tropicalillusions (Aug 25, 2010 06:03PM)
Hey gang, I have always blacked my wire with good ole fashioned black magic marker for years, with no exposure of the line. no glare, always turns out flat black.
Message: Posted by: Dave Scribner (Aug 25, 2010 07:22PM)
Hey Chris, I never heard of blackening the wire with marker but it should be done with monofilament line.
Message: Posted by: tropicalillusions (Aug 25, 2010 10:01PM)
Dave.. it works great on the monofiliment, and also works well on the beading wire as well, no shine... give it a shot. I simply spread the loop between two fingers, mark the parts between the fingers, then move the loop around the fingers until the unmarked part of the wire is exposed, and finish her up. I will have to send you some photos of the loops we build up for our bird family. the loops also have that special magic that help to keep the pocket shut as well until the loop is retrieved, I will have to send the shots to you soon. You may already know of it, but would like to share it with you if not.
Message: Posted by: Dave Scribner (Aug 26, 2010 05:39AM)
I treat my monofilament as you mentioned, Chris. I don't do the entire loop, just dashes but doing the entire loop would for sure eliminate any possibility of flash. I don't use line very often though. Once I started using wire, I never went back.
Message: Posted by: Regan (Aug 27, 2010 10:45AM)
I use marker, but it tends to wear off. The gun blue/black would be a permanent solution for the wire. Too bad it won't work on monofiliment! :)
Message: Posted by: Dave Scribner (Aug 27, 2010 10:50AM)
If you use Andy's wire or the wire from the hardware store, you don't have to worry about the gun blue/black. It comes black and won't wear off.

If you use permanent marker on the monofilament, apply it in dashes, wipe it down and reapply. By the time it wears off, you should be ready to replace the loop anyway.
Message: Posted by: Regan (Aug 27, 2010 11:28AM)
Dave, I use Andy's wire, but the gun blue might be a perfect fix for the braided/wound wire I am experimenting with. I'm not sure what type of metal it is, but I hope it is something that will work with the blueing chemicals.

I usually apply the marker to the fishing line the way you described. You had told me that before, and I remembered it! I use Sharpies, but I am thinking I might need to try a different type. Maybe I'm just paranoid, but it seems the black wears off too soon.
Message: Posted by: 1906Alpha1906 (Aug 27, 2010 01:07PM)
If my loop ever started to shine, or wear, I just used a black sharpie (the fat one) and went across the line with it. problem solved *smile*. My tux has a black shiny lapel on it though, so it blended perfectly.

Message: Posted by: Christopher Moro (Aug 27, 2010 02:08PM)
Great discussion here guys.

Chris Moss - your description of keeping the pocket closed with the loop sounds so intriguing!

Regan - I've used Andy's wire for about 10 years now or so. Occasionally this wire will have the slightest dark brown/bronze color to it and so I've hit it with a light spray of Krylon's Ultra Flat Black Spray Paint. As Dave said, it's not necessary, but good insurance to eliminate visibility. You'd think the paint could chip off, but it hasn't. I have one loop that has never broken nor been replaced in 9 years and the flat black treatment has never worn out.

As for the monofilament, see Tony Clark's video. As Dave mentioned, he dots the line with a black sharpie. He also lightly sands the line to avoid shine. This is a great tip, though I recommend getting a heavier pound test if you do that. Because I kid you not, I did it to 15lb test and it snapped on me in a practice session!

Finally....Bill, Dimmare shot a dove video!!!?? Are you serious? How did I miss this? Where can I find it? He is an amazing performer...and a cool dude too.
Message: Posted by: Dave Scribner (Aug 27, 2010 04:33PM)
When you sand the line, it builds up heat and that weakens it. Probably creates little microscopic nicks it, too. Good thing it broke in practice sessions.

Check this out. I believe disk 2 has Dimmare's dove act.
Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (Aug 27, 2010 05:23PM)
Black, black, black, isn't there any other color then black? It totally not true that black makes you thin.

Anyone try working with doves with any other color then black?

Tux clothing is totally un-acceptable in todays T-Shirt and shorts society. Sloppy looking is the "new" american look. So lowering the best dressed rule; to an all time low of a casual jacket windbreaker, buts you at the top of very well dressed.
Message: Posted by: Christopher Moro (Aug 27, 2010 05:41PM)
Dave, thank you so much for the link. I had no idea about these DVDs! Thank you.

Bill -- well, of course, as you know, some guys who don't wear black are James Ceilen, Jason Byrne, Lu Chen. I am sure there are others I'm not thinking of.
Message: Posted by: Christopher Moro (Aug 27, 2010 05:49PM)
Bill, this topic of dressing differently is of major interest to me too. Just as you said, culture now finds classical tails more out of the ordinary than ever. I've been giving this a lot of thought.
Message: Posted by: Christopher Moro (Aug 27, 2010 05:54PM)
Back to non-black-wearing performers: Kenrick Ice MacDonald, Victor Cephas. Hmmm, this feels like it belongs in another thread....
Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (Aug 27, 2010 06:14PM)
No it does not belong in another thread, as I was refering to the topic. Would you put a black wire on a red jacket? Would you have nylon lines sticking out all over the place when they would surely be more visible. How would a yellow jacket be handled?
Message: Posted by: Christopher Moro (Aug 27, 2010 06:27PM)
I would put black wire over a red jacket....but only at a lecture ;)

I see what you mean. I would imagine you'd want to paint the wire the same color as the lapel or the shirt, depending on where it sits. I have aqua blue lapels and a black vest and I still use the black wire. If I had loops bent over the lapel, I'd probably be in the hardware store looking for matching blue paint. How about you? What color do you wear?
Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (Aug 27, 2010 07:05PM)
Well, my first was a dark green jacket, and then I went back to black. As my post suggest, cloths have totally changed and I for one am uncomfortable with the way people are dressing, I cannot dress that way in public. That is why I am asking.
Message: Posted by: Dave Scribner (Aug 27, 2010 07:33PM)
If you use monofilament line, it doesn't matter what color your clothes are. This hasn't been mentioned but loops do not have to be outside of the jacket or bent over the lapel. In one of my acts, all of the loops are held under the jacket with special holders. That allows a close up performance as the loops are never seen. You could have red loops with a white jacket and it wouldn't make any difference.

In any case, Bill is correct that most of todays modern performers wear more gothic or casual clothes. I couldn't do it and wouldn't want to. My act is a classical act and performed in a full tux. I think the new look comes across as a novelty act where a magician in a tux producing doves portrays the essence of magic. Can you picture Channing Pollock or Lance Burton performing their acts in Jeans and a leather jacket? At the same time, I can't picture Dan Sperry or Ice McDonald performing in a full tux.
Message: Posted by: Michael J. Douglas (Aug 27, 2010 07:38PM)
On 2010-08-27 17:33, Dave Scribner wrote:
Check this out. I believe disk 2 has Dimmare's dove act.

Just a note: This DVD doesn't contain Dimmare's dove act. It contains two steals used by Channing Pollock, his hat steal and a jacket steal. Dimmare includes an overview of the type of holder used, bluing and attaching the wire, and a silk production. It also contains some close-up effects, including an impromptu card rise, a burnt and restored cigarette paper, and ring in salt shaker. Dimmare explains everything very well, but the production values are typical of other IMS videos.
The DVD also includes Kozak's complete Tequila Act, taught in full by the main himself, as well as various close-up items.

And Dave, you beat me to it! I was going to say that the loops don't have to be outside. Greg Frewin's DVDs give a great explanation of how to have the outside of your lapel clean.
Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (Aug 27, 2010 07:54PM)
On 2010-08-27 20:38, Michael J. Douglas wrote:
And Dave, you beat me to it! I was going to say that the loops don't have to be outside. Greg Frewin's DVDs give a great explanation of how to have the outside of your lapel clean.

As well as Shimada's method on this as well, but as in any act, different methods should be used, not all being the same moves when producing 6 doves.
Message: Posted by: Dave Scribner (Aug 28, 2010 06:51AM)
Thanks, Michael. I was guessing at the DVD, as I hadn't seen them myself. I have several of the IMS videos, and I agree they aren't the best. Very highly priced for what you get in my opinion.

Bill, guess Christopher's question comes back to you as to where he gets the Dimmare video of his dove act.
Message: Posted by: Michael J. Douglas (Aug 28, 2010 12:20PM)
I don't think Dimmare ever released a video of his dove act, explanation-wise anyway. The DVD Bill and I were referring to is the one linked to, and in which I described, earlier.
Message: Posted by: Dave Scribner (Aug 28, 2010 04:19PM)
Michael, the only link is the one I provided, and you said that was not a video of the dove act. This is what Bill said in an earlier post, which lead me to believe there is a DVD of Dimmare's act.

[quote]I do know that it was known as "Gun Blue", but when I watched the DVD of of James Dimmare he called it "Gun Black" so I was using his terminology.[/quote]
Message: Posted by: Michael J. Douglas (Aug 28, 2010 04:30PM)
Right, I think Bill's referring to the IMS video, where he discusses bluing the wire along with Channing's steals. I don't recall Dimmare releasing any other video, but maybe I'm confused. I've been wrong before! :lol:
Message: Posted by: Dave Scribner (Aug 28, 2010 07:13PM)
You're probably not confused. This topic has gone back and forth between several subjects. I've never seen a dove DVD by Dimmare. Wish I had.
Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (Aug 28, 2010 10:14PM)
I have answered many requests about the video. It is a video from International Magicians Society. It is a great video. No it is not a video of his act, only Channing Pollock's wonderful methods of producing doves. The one video is sold for $37.50, and also has the Long Salt Pour by Kozak.

These 2 offerings on video are well worth the price asked. Dimmare does demonstrate the handling and you can see it is workable material. My only regret is that I did not have this information when I was developing my dove productions.
Message: Posted by: Christopher Moro (Aug 30, 2010 12:05PM)
I never expected Dimmare to have a video out on dove magic, nor of actually explaining his act. I don't think that would ever happen. But anything that man has to share on doves is something I want to hear.