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Topic: Looking for Cups and Balls Suggestions
Message: Posted by: QuailCreek (Aug 22, 2010 04:45PM)
Ive searched the archives of the Caf but didnt find the complete answer so Im posting this one. I have also looked through the cups and balls museum.

I want to start working with cups and balls so I would appreciate some help/suggestions. I believe I want a set of standard size combo cups in bright copper. Other than that Im looking for help. I would like to get a leg-up on making my choice rather than ending up buying three or four sets of cups to determine which ones I like best. Im looking to pick up an entire package cups, balls and wand as well as some DVDs.

I realize that the selection is almost totally a matter of personal preference but with all the experience on the Caf especially where cups and balls are concerned, I would very much appreciate everyones opinion. (And Im sure Ill get it!) Im not a street performer so they would be more for close-up and parlor use. I have been around magic for quite some time and Im not as concerned about the cost as I am in getting what I pay for.

If there is a set of cups that might take some searching to acquire Im open to that too. Although I agree with Bill Palmer, I dont think a set of cups is an investment either.

I would prefer bright copper cups and I thing a combo set would give me a little more versatility. If someone has a suggestion on a four cup set that includes a chop cup, that would be good too. As far a the shape Im thinking the Paul Fox style as apposed to the traditional shape.

Also, as I learn better from a DVD than from reading, the whole left brain right brain thing I guess. I would also appreciate suggestions for some DVDs. I have the Ammar 2 DVDs set already which teach the basics so I would be looking for suggestions on routines.

Thanks,
Tom
Message: Posted by: Tim Dowd (Aug 22, 2010 05:56PM)
Hi Tom,

I had the same question until I started actually performing the cups and balls for real people...

The routine is most important, I started out with the classic from Stars of Magic, Vernon routine. this was an impromptu version using glasses covered in paper ( I even wrote A,B,C on them until I realized this was for demonstration purposes only)

These are the questions I asked myself:

Decide which final loads you want to produce before you buy any cups...

Decide if you want to use a chop cup as part of your cups and balls routine or if you want to do it as a separate effect...

Look in the mirror... is your character a bright copper sort of guy or are you into antique brass, or even plastic?

What will precede and follow the routine? Can you use the props in another setting?

Finally, if you're like most of us here it won't stop with one set :) so it doesn't really matter...

have fun...

Tim
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Aug 22, 2010 06:24PM)
According to that eminent authority on psychology, Jamy Ian Swiss, the whole left brain / right brain thing has been discredited. See the latest issue of Genii for full details.

You can learn from books. You just have to want to. However, the Ammar DVD's are an excellent start.

Regarding cup sets, remember you can always use combo sets as regular cups.
Message: Posted by: Dale Houck (Aug 22, 2010 06:24PM)
The size of manipulation balls you want to use would also be crucial in making a decision. Some will nest three 1 1/8" balls; some will only do that with 1" or smaller; some will only take 7/8". Mini cups might take even smaller balls.
Message: Posted by: Donnie Buckley (Aug 22, 2010 06:28PM)
[quote]
On 2010-08-22 18:56, Tim Dowd wrote:

I started out with the classic from Stars of Magic, Vernon routine. this was an impromptu version using glasses covered in paper ( I even wrote A,B,C on them until I realized this was for demonstration purposes only)

[/quote]
That's very funny!
Message: Posted by: dmueller (Aug 22, 2010 07:09PM)
[quote]
On 2010-08-22 19:24, Bill Palmer wrote:
According to that eminent authority on psychology, Jamy Ian Swiss, the whole left brain / right brain thing has been discredited. See the latest issue of Genii for full details.

[/quote]

As a dyslexic I must humbly disagree with you on this. While the whole "left brain/ right brain" thing may have been discredited, there are still those of us who struggle with learning from reading a book. I have a very high level of reading comprehension unless I am reading instructions. Then I almost always have to have a visual reference. I can not get the signals between my brain and my hands to coordinate when I try learning something from reading it. But with an instructional video, often times I have the mechanics down pat at the end of the first viewing, providing I am watching with my props in front of me.
Message: Posted by: pabloinus (Aug 22, 2010 08:06PM)
Bazar de magia in copper are very good and not so expensive, the penguin cups are ok as well
RNT2 are all very good, any of their cups, the problem is to choose one the selection is huge. Mendoza, Foxy 3, PF, you pick
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Aug 22, 2010 08:21PM)
[quote]
On 2010-08-22 20:09, dmueller wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-08-22 19:24, Bill Palmer wrote:
According to that eminent authority on psychology, Jamy Ian Swiss, the whole left brain / right brain thing has been discredited. See the latest issue of Genii for full details.

[/quote]

As a dyslexic I must humbly disagree with you on this. While the whole "left brain/ right brain" thing may have been discredited, there are still those of us who struggle with learning from reading a book. I have a very high level of reading comprehension unless I am reading instructions. Then I almost always have to have a visual reference. I can not get the signals between my brain and my hands to coordinate when I try learning something from reading it. But with an instructional video, often times I have the mechanics down pat at the end of the first viewing, providing I am watching with my props in front of me.
[/quote]

Dyslexia is not a foreign subject to me. I have what could best be termed "adult onset dyslexia." I had eye surgery about 25 years ago that causes my right eye and left eye to get the signals mixed up quite frequently. As a result, I have to spend an inordinate amount of time correcting things that I post before I hit the button, etc.

For more information about this, read this thread -- ALL of it -- it will do you a lot of good.

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=151715&forum=171&10

Finally, regarding the last post in that thread, the Psychiatric times has published several articles since 2007 echoing exactly what I posted in that very post.

Note: Because of my visual impairment, I had to make 15 corrections in this post before I hit the button. Make that 17.
Message: Posted by: dcjames (Aug 22, 2010 08:57PM)
Hello Tom -

Welcome to the fascinating world of cups and balls!

So, you've already decided on the material and finish you like as well the style of cup you prefer. You also know that you would like a combo set. You're off to a great start.

I have to agree with the advice posted by Tim Dowd & Dale Houck concerning the need to understand what size balls you prefer to use.

For final load balls I think the key is determining what size ball (or other item) you can comfortably & invisibly manipulate.

A good way to understand what size working ball that you can most effectively manage is to learn some routines using small, hard balls like those used for C&B work. Learning a two in the hand - one in the pocket routine as well as the 3-ball routine would be a great start. (There are some really nice things published on these effects by David Roth, Danny Orleans, Scott Guinn, John Luka, Johnny Thompson, etc. Also, L&Ls Worlds Greatest Magic - The Fabulous Three Ball Routine is an excellent DVD on this topic.) Once you have a couple of these routines perfected you will have mastered some of the fundamentals for adequately performing cups and balls before ever having picked up a cup.

After you figure out what size balls are best for you, RNT2 (www.rnt2.com) has a wonderful website that lists the recommended balls to use with each of their cups. The choices are many and I have yet to be disappointed with anything Ive bought from RNT2. Besides that, Donnie is an awesome guy!

Finally, handle all the cups you can before making a decision. If you know anyone who collects cups in your area, ask if you can play with some of their sets. Its really disappointing to buy a set of cups only to find that you just don't connect with them for whatever reason. I assure you that unless you are 100% happy with the cups you purchase, you will not use them and your search will continue.

Best of luck in your hunt for your first set of cups.

Doug
Message: Posted by: kentfgunn (Aug 22, 2010 08:57PM)
Bill,

I've given up telling people that the good stuff is all in print. If they want to learn from DVDs . . . it's their choice. I applaud your efforts, nonetheless. Someone not willing to try to extend their sources of information to the written word will only limit themselves. Whatever restrictions they feel exist are very real to them. Luckily for all of us the Ammar Cups and Balls DVDs are quite good.

Quick Quail

I can't think of a better source of information on the Vernon routine and it's progeny than the Ammar DVDs. They really are quite good. The explanation of several complete routines are in there. You've four or five full routines to choose from. They get progressively more complex.

The cups you choose do not matter. There, I've said it. Neither does the wand. They do not matter one whit. You know you want a combo set in shiny copper. RNT2 is the place for you. Here's the combo cup page.

http://www.rnt2.com/index.php?target=categories&category_id=172

I have a set of the Mendoza cups. I had a set in Aluminum as well. That's a really long story . . . I'd recommend these even more highly than the one's at RNT2. If you want a combo set, you'll have to pay considerably more though!

http://www.sherwoodmagic.com/

I happen to use Mr. Sherwood's cups. I bought them first and got used to them.

For combo routines your choice of Video instruction is severely limited. I'd recommend Charlie Frye's Eccentricks DVDs. You can see this master of all things entertaining here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvc68cKILxg&feature=related

I don't own Mr. John Mendoza's DVDs. I will say he certainly has one of the earliest combo routines in print though!

Good luck in your acquisitions. Don't forget to learn a cups and balls routine when you're through acquiring new toys!

KG
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Aug 22, 2010 10:55PM)
Most people tend to forget that Herb Morrissey INVENTED the combo cup. John Mendoza definitely has the first combo cup routine in print.

BTW, Learning from a book is a completely different process than learning from a DVD. I am posting something here to help serve as a guide:
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=377965&forum=37&0
Message: Posted by: yin_howe (Aug 23, 2010 12:08AM)
All are excelent and relevant advice.

[quote]
On 2010-08-22 21:57, dcjames wrote:

I have to agree with the advice posted by Tim Dowd & Dale Houck concerning the need to understand what size balls you prefer to use.

For final load balls I think the key is determining what size ball (or other item) you can comfortably & invisibly manipulate.
[/quote]

One thing I would like to add to the above is the question: 'Will you be performing standing or sitting?' Which is also a consideration for load sizes.
Message: Posted by: QuailCreek (Aug 23, 2010 02:13PM)
Thanks Doug,
This is some very good information. I appreciate the reply very much.

Tom

[quote]
On 2010-08-22 21:57, dcjames wrote:
Hello Tom -

Welcome to the fascinating world of cups and balls!

So, you've already decided on the material and finish you like as well the style of cup you prefer. You also know that you would like a combo set. You're off to a great start.

I have to agree with the advice posted by Tim Dowd & Dale Houck concerning the need to understand what size balls you prefer to use.

For final load balls I think the key is determining what size ball (or other item) you can comfortably & invisibly manipulate.

A good way to understand what size working ball that you can most effectively manage is to learn some routines using small, hard balls like those used for C&B work. Learning a two in the hand - one in the pocket routine as well as the 3-ball routine would be a great start. (There are some really nice things published on these effects by David Roth, Danny Orleans, Scott Guinn, John Luka, Johnny Thompson, etc. Also, L&Ls Worlds Greatest Magic - The Fabulous Three Ball Routine is an excellent DVD on this topic.) Once you have a couple of these routines perfected you will have mastered some of the fundamentals for adequately performing cups and balls before ever having picked up a cup.

After you figure out what size balls are best for you, RNT2 (www.rnt2.com) has a wonderful website that lists the recommended balls to use with each of their cups. The choices are many and I have yet to be disappointed with anything Ive bought from RNT2. Besides that, Donnie is an awesome guy!

Finally, handle all the cups you can before making a decision. If you know anyone who collects cups in your area, ask if you can play with some of their sets. Its really disappointing to buy a set of cups only to find that you just don't connect with them for whatever reason. I assure you that unless you are 100% happy with the cups you purchase, you will not use them and your search will continue.

Best of luck in your hunt for your first set of cups.

Doug
[/quote]

Thank you very much, Tim. I agree, sometimes getting started and leaning as you go is the best way.

Tom


[quote]
On 2010-08-22 18:56, Tim Dowd wrote:
Hi Tom,

I had the same question until I started actually performing the cups and balls for real people...

The routine is most important, I started out with the classic from Stars of Magic, Vernon routine. this was an impromptu version using glasses covered in paper ( I even wrote A,B,C on them until I realized this was for demonstration purposes only)

These are the questions I asked myself:

Decide which final loads you want to produce before you buy any cups...

Decide if you want to use a chop cup as part of your cups and balls routine or if you want to do it as a separate effect...

Look in the mirror... is your character a bright copper sort of guy or are you into antique brass, or even plastic?

What will precede and follow the routine? Can you use the props in another setting?

Finally, if you're like most of us here it won't stop with one set :) so it doesn't really matter...

have fun...

Tim
[/quote]

Posted: Aug 23, 2010 3:18pm
I find it interesting that my brain (left or right) seems to be more of a topic of conversation that my original questions. Funny how that works.

Thanks Bill for you venerable insight. I will do my best to learn from the written word. All great information from everybody and I appreciate it.

Regards,
Tom
Message: Posted by: MagicBrent (Aug 23, 2010 09:20PM)
Is there no other kit on the market similar to the Andy Comic cups as far as having the cups, balls, final loads, wand and case...hard to find but I like the idea of it all being together versus ala cart
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Aug 23, 2010 09:53PM)
Not in that price range, at least. Remember Andy Comic basically put that together as a budget way to get into a set of busking cups. These cups are no longer made.

Cups are a very personal thing.

BTW, that wasn't actually a case. It was a busking pouch. Okay, it was a fanny pack, but if you think it's a case, you are missing the purpose of it.

Getting back to the cups, though. You can order a set of cups, balls and loads from RnT II. They even have wands. So all you would be missing is the pouch.

Pouches are even more personal than cups.
Message: Posted by: QuailCreek (Aug 23, 2010 10:49PM)
So... Bill. I read your post. When are you going to write a book on cups and balls? I want the first copy. Maybe an old dog can learn some new trix.

Tom

[quote]
On 2010-08-22 23:55, Bill Palmer wrote:
Most people tend to forget that Herb Morrissey INVENTED the combo cup. John Mendoza definitely has the first combo cup routine in print.

BTW, Learning from a book is a completely different process than learning from a DVD. I am posting something here to help serve as a guide:
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=377965&forum=37&0
[/quote]
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Aug 24, 2010 12:27AM)
START SIMPLE... Learn the basic ways to handle the props. Get comfortable with them.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Aug 24, 2010 06:24AM)
I'm working on the book now. It will take about three years for me to finish it.

BTW, there have been several threads about selecting cups, and one of the common ideas in them is that you should start by figuring out what your loads will be. That determines the size of the cups. Then figure out what you will be wearing and what your performing surface will be. That determines the color of the balls.

Now look at several sets that meet your criteria. See what size ball works best with them. Up to a point, larger is better, because it is easier to see.

Remember, color contrast is important. Yellow shows up better against black than any other color. Black shows up against yellow with about the same amount of ease. This is one reason school buses are painted yellow and black.

White and black are your next set of really strong contrasts.

There is a table of color contrasts on the net somewhere.
Message: Posted by: sethb (Aug 24, 2010 07:34AM)
In my experience, the size of your hands determines the size of the balls that you should use. Many C&B sets come with 1" balls, which I found slightly too big for my hands. Most magic shops also carry 7/8" balls, which work better for me, and even 3/4" ones.

Whatever size balls you get, buy a spare set so that when one rolls under the refrigerator or is destroyed by your cat, it's not the end of your act. The Morrissey brand knt balls from Canada are inexpensive, yet well made with a thick wool that helps to prevent the balls from "talking" at the wrong times.

I have had good luck with the Bazar DeMagia cups, which are available in aluminum, brass and copper. I started with aluminum and graduated to brass, which are much heavier and have a nice ring when hit with a plastic wand. They will also take a good-sized final load. These cups are well made, durable, and at about $75, won't cost you an arm and a leg. If you order a straight set and a combo set, you will be able to try routines with and without the chopped cup, and will also have two spares in case of loss or damage. In my opinion, the chopped cup is more trouble than it's worth, but there are others who will disagree.

Many folks subscribe to the "bigger is better" theory for final loads. Just remember that the bigger the load, the tougher it is to load it unseen into the cup. In my experience, a better principle is "the odder the better," meaning a non-congruent final load like a lemon, potato, or even a stack of coins. When I'm pitching the small plastic Royal Magic C&B sets from FUN, Inc., I use a "D" battery as a final load. This lets me end the routine with the gag line "Oh, the battery's dead, sorry, no more magic today!" I have also used a golf ball as a final load, but the battery always gets the bigger and better response.

For DVD teaching, you can't do better than the Ammar 2-disc set. As you know, Ammar emphasizes learning the different moves so that you can construct your own routine. For further study, I'd suggest Bob White's excellent DVD, "A Practical Approach to the Cups & Balls," click [url=http://themagicwarehouse.com/cgi-bin/findit.pl?x_item=DV6856&keyword=BOB%20WHITE]HERE[/url] for more info. Bob is from the Dai Vernon school of thought, and he emphasizes naturalness in his sleights and moves.

Welcome to the wonderful world of the Cups & Balls, and don't be overly concerned about what sort of cups you get. The trick is about you and your presentation, not the cups! SETH

Posted: Aug 24, 2010 11:21am
One more thought. Most C&B balls now come in either white or red, which is great for visibility. However, such bright colors also make a careless flash of a palmed ball much more visible as well.

Before knit balls were the rage, many C&B balls were simply colored black. As Bob White points out on his DVD, this would still be very visible on a white or light-colored background, but would also help to minimize any flashing. In fact, a black ball would be very visible against even a vibrant red background.

I believe RNT offers black C&B balls, and I wish some of the other manufacturers, such as Morrissey, would consider doing the same. Failing that, I imagine you could probably also dye a white knit ball black, but it would probably be a somewhat messy process. SETH
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Aug 24, 2010 12:44PM)
After you have learned the basics, consider BEING DIFFERENT... Check out things like Johnny Paul's routine or Fred Kaps' using sponge balls. And John Ramsay's two cup routine using ice cream cups and/or "Indian style cups".

The list goes on.

BUT FIRST learn and get comfortable with false transfers, cup loads (small and large) and just picking up props with confidence and style.
Message: Posted by: QuailCreek (Aug 24, 2010 12:59PM)
Thanks, Pete.

Man am I learning allot.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Motor City (Aug 24, 2010 01:34PM)
[quote]
On 2010-08-22 19:24, Bill Palmer wrote:
According to that eminent authority on psychology, Jamy Ian Swiss, the whole left brain / right brain thing has been discredited. See the latest issue of Genii for full details.
[/quote]

Bill are you referring to the Aug., 2010 issue or the July, 2010 issue of Genii? Thanks.

John Luka
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Aug 24, 2010 03:39PM)
The August issue. Jamy just mentions it in passing, along with his disdain for NLP and a few other things that he considers "unscientific" and "superstitious."

I never cease to be amazed at the depth of his knowledge. ;)

He must be paid by the word, because he certainly uses a lot of them to review a DVD.
Message: Posted by: QuailCreek (Aug 24, 2010 03:52PM)
Seth,
Excellent input.

I like the idea of the cup ringing when you tap it with a wand. Does the brass make a different sound than the copper?

Tom

[quote]
On 2010-08-24 08:34, sethb wrote:
In my experience, the size of your hands determines the size of the balls that you should use. Many C&B sets come with 1" balls, which I found slightly too big for my hands. Most magic shops also carry 7/8" balls, which work better for me, and even 3/4" ones.

Whatever size balls you get, buy a spare set so that when one rolls under the refrigerator or is destroyed by your cat, it's not the end of your act. The Morrissey brand knt balls from Canada are inexpensive, yet well made with a thick wool that helps to prevent the balls from "talking" at the wrong times.

I have had good luck with the Bazar DeMagia cups, which are available in aluminum, brass and copper. I started with aluminum and graduated to brass, which are much heavier and have a nice ring when hit with a plastic wand. They will also take a good-sized final load. These cups are well made, durable, and at about $75, won't cost you an arm and a leg. If you order a straight set and a combo set, you will be able to try routines with and without the chopped cup, and will also have two spares in case of loss or damage. In my opinion, the chopped cup is more trouble than it's worth, but there are others who will disagree.

Many folks subscribe to the "bigger is better" theory for final loads. Just remember that the bigger the load, the tougher it is to load it unseen into the cup. In my experience, a better principle is "the odder the better," meaning a non-congruent final load like a lemon, potato, or even a stack of coins. When I'm pitching the small plastic Royal Magic C&B sets from FUN, Inc., I use a "D" battery as a final load. This lets me end the routine with the gag line "Oh, the battery's dead, sorry, no more magic today!" I have also used a golf ball as a final load, but the battery always gets the bigger and better response.

For DVD teaching, you can't do better than the Ammar 2-disc set. As you know, Ammar emphasizes learning the different moves so that you can construct your own routine. For further study, I'd suggest Bob White's excellent DVD, "A Practical Approach to the Cups & Balls," click [url=http://themagicwarehouse.com/cgi-bin/findit.pl?x_item=DV6856&keyword=BOB%20WHITE]HERE[/url] for more info. Bob is from the Dai Vernon school of thought, and he emphasizes naturalness in his sleights and moves.

Welcome to the wonderful world of the Cups & Balls, and don't be overly concerned about what sort of cups you get. The trick is about you and your presentation, not the cups! SETH
[/quote]
Message: Posted by: Josh Riel (Aug 24, 2010 03:58PM)
I don't get paid to perform magic, so my opinion is just a little less than relevant. However, I will still give it.

I like White balls with a Black mat, assuming I'm using Copper or Wood (Dark) cups. If I'm using Stainless or Aluminum cups I like to use a darker ball (White and black/red/blue usually) I really like a more vibrant ball seeing as that is the magic (Opinions...). I like fairly big and heavy balls, but not too heavy 1 1/4" with a rubber core is nice for me. Not popular and way too much of a pain to make very many.

Anyway, there is my opinion (It is an opinion that I've reached with the thinking of some other magicians, but nonetheless it is mine now.)

as far as the right/left brain thing, I'm happy if I can get any of my brain to work, I don't dare ask where it lives.
Message: Posted by: QuailCreek (Aug 24, 2010 04:44PM)
Thanks Josh,
I really didn't think about the weight of the balls. I was only concerned with the size. Something that will be easy to play with as the balls are the cheaper part of the setup.

Thanks again,
Tom

[quote]
On 2010-08-24 16:58, Josh Riel wrote:
I don't get paid to perform magic, so my opinion is just a little less than relevant. However, I will still give it.

I like White balls with a Black mat, assuming I'm using Copper or Wood (Dark) cups. If I'm using Stainless or Aluminum cups I like to use a darker ball (White and black/red/blue usually) I really like a more vibrant ball seeing as that is the magic (Opinions...). I like fairly big and heavy balls, but not too heavy 1 1/4" with a rubber core is nice for me. Not popular and way too much of a pain to make very many.

Anyway, there is my opinion (It is an opinion that I've reached with the thinking of some other magicians, but nonetheless it is mine now.)

as far as the right/left brain thing, I'm happy if I can get any of my brain to work, I don't dare ask where it lives.
[/quote]
Message: Posted by: sethb (Aug 24, 2010 04:51PM)
[quote] On 2010-08-24, QuailCreek wrote: I like the idea of the cup ringing when you tap it with a wand. Does the brass make a different sound than the copper? [quote]

I only own the brass cups, so I can't say what sort of sound the copper cups make, but I'm sure other folks will chime in on this (no pun intended). Tapping and ringing the cups with the wand helps to produce that "magic moment" when the balls supposedly appear and disappear. If you're pitching, the noise also helps to attract more people who are curious to find out what all the noise and fuss is about.

BTW, I use a cheap $2 plastic 11" wand for closeup and a 13" plastic one for parlour-type venues. They both look fine, do the job in the misdirection department, and most importantly, don't put any dents in my brass cups. It's too light for a Vernon Wand Spin, but I could never master that move anyway! SETH
Message: Posted by: QuailCreek (Aug 24, 2010 05:19PM)
So after reading through the thread again here’s what I’m leaning towards.

First I’ll be doing my routine standing. I’m thinking that as long as the cups will handle a tennis ball size final load I’m good and 1” balls are a good place to start.

As far as the cups. I’m thinking the Mendoza Combo Cups |Copper |Mirror Finish from RNT. Always good to support the com

Donny, if you would PM me with what you would suggest I would be grateful.

Here’s what I'm going to pick u-p as far as DVDs. Maybe Bill can suggest some books.
Cups & Balls - A Practical Approach - by Bob White $37.46
Cups & Balls - The Greater Magic Video Library Teach-in Sessions $22.46
Elegant Cups and Balls - by Rafael Benatar $26.21
Worlds Greatest Magic - The Fabulous Three Ball Routine $15.00


I also like the Ricky Jay C&B routine. The routine doesn’t look like it's all that tricky but the story and the kicker ending is pretty cool.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hgm4wZCACYg

Tom
Message: Posted by: walid ahumada (Aug 24, 2010 05:36PM)
[quote]
On 2010-08-23 22:53, Bill Palmer wrote:
Not in that price range, at least. Remember Andy Comic basically put that together as a budget way to get into a set of busking cups. These cups are no longer made.

Cups are a very personal thing.

BTW, that wasn't actually a case. It was a busking pouch. Okay, it was a fanny pack, but if you think it's a case, you are missing the purpose of it.

Getting back to the cups, though. You can order a set of cups, balls and loads from RnT II. They even have wands. So all you would be missing is the pouch.

Pouches are even more personal than cups.
[/quote]

besides that, the set also included an interesting chop wand idea ,the floating wand gimmick and a DVD.
Message: Posted by: sethb (Aug 24, 2010 06:16PM)
I think the "Three Ball Routine" is not a C&B effect, it is just three balls in the hands and pocket. A great classic, but not a C&B effect. Were you thinking of making it part of a C&B routine? Now there's an interesting idea!

The Greater Magic Teach-In has one segment by Mike Rogers that is worth the price of the video, in my opinion. I learned how to use a box servante and polished up my final load technique at the same time, then made my own variation using a tabled sign. An idea worth considering if you're doing a stand-up routine -- no pocket loads, and hardly any bad angles!

Also, be creative and try to think outside the box for your routine. Many C&B routines start off with one-ball appearances or transportations and then build to a 2-0-2 move or a "three in the middle" climax before the final loads. That's logical and a standard way to go. But someone here at the Caf' constructed a routine that [i]began[/i] with a three-to-one move. What a great idea, and a great way to immediately grab the specs' attention and show that you know what you are doing! SETH
Message: Posted by: Donnie Buckley (Aug 24, 2010 06:37PM)
Hiya Quail,
The Mendoza Combo cups are a might fine combo cup, no doubt, they have served me well for a long time, but these days I'm totally enamored with the Foxy 3 Combo Cups. They don't look BIG, but they feel BIG. Their shape and proportions makes several moves easier to accomplish. For instance, if you do a Tip-Off move, the mouth bead of the top cup "clears" the saddle of the bottom cup without lifting up the cup. That single proportional design makes a world of difference to me. It may not make that big of a difference to others though. It depends upon what you want to do with the cups...

Also, if you need to work with big honkin' 1 1/8" balls, you need to go with Mendozas. They have a lot of attic space. Since you are leaning towards 1" balls, the Foxy 3 Combos are going to just be perfect.

Both cups accomodate a tennis ball final load, but the Foxy 3 looks like it won't.

I have plenty of both in stock, it makes no difference to me which you choose, but if I was planning a purchase of a full sized Combo Cup set TODAY, I'd be getting the brand new Foxy 3 Combos.

You get 20% off the balls of your choice with a cup purchase and I have that Rafael Benatar DVD in stock too.

I'll PM you with some extras...

Sorry for the shameful self-promotion guys. I really try to stay out of these discussions on "cup suggestions" but it's hard - I'm a magician first, and a vendor second. :)
Message: Posted by: conjurormatt (Aug 24, 2010 06:37PM)
Sethb You should look up a manuscript called Stinger (It's on Lybrary.com). It's a very unique routine for cups and balls, and does indeed include the three ball routine with the C&B.

Another C&B video to consider (and one strongly recommended to me by Denny Haney) is: The Tapestry of Deception part 4 "The Evolution of a Classic" by Michael Vincent.

To get an idea of his routine, check out this link, there is some very slick use of a combo set:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MSKFJtaS5k&feature=related

Cheers!
Matthew Martin
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Aug 24, 2010 07:02PM)
Matthew, that IS impressive. Slow and easy. I like it!

Thanks!
Doug
Message: Posted by: conjurormatt (Aug 24, 2010 07:05PM)
Your Welcome Doug, Oh, one minor typo. The e-book is called The Sting, not Stinger; it's by R. Shane.
Message: Posted by: yin_howe (Aug 24, 2010 08:45PM)
[quote]
On 2010-08-24 17:51, sethb wrote:

BTW, I use a cheap $2 plastic 11" wand for closeup and a 13" plastic one for parlour-type venues. They both look fine, do the job in the misdirection department, and most importantly, don't put any dents in my brass cups. It's too light for a Vernon Wand Spin, but I could never master that move anyway! SETH
[/quote]

Not really. Although I'm just a hobbyest, but I use a cheap plastic wand and do the Vernon Wand spin vanish, it's just a matter of practise. but a wand with a little weight to it does make it slightly easier to learn due to the momentum.
Message: Posted by: QuailCreek (Aug 25, 2010 12:27AM)
Seth,
The three ball routine was a suggestion from one of the posts on this thread as a way to learn better how to handle balls. I just think that sounded like a good idea.

Tom

Posted: Aug 25, 2010 1:35am
Donnie,
I asked your opinion so no self-promotion on your part. We all want to do our small part to support those who support the Caf'.

Thanks,
Tom
Message: Posted by: sethb (Aug 25, 2010 07:05AM)
Tom -- Now you can see why the Cups & Balls has survived for hundreds, if not thousands of years: it's a great and very versatile trick!

Have fun with it, and please let us know how and what you're doing. SETH
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Aug 26, 2010 09:15AM)
QuailCreek,

I like that Ricky Jay routine. That's an example of an original routine. Have you decided on your cups? I've been a few places on the 'net, and can't find a nicer set than RNTII.

Mendoza Combo Cups/Copper/Mirror Finish, yes. If you can afford them, that's the set to buy. And, I appreciate everyone's video additions as well. Wow, what an education on the Cups & Balls.

For beginners on a budget, I have to say, $26 ain't bad for a nice set, at Morrissey Magic.

These are the ones I had for many years (scroll all the way to the bottom, "Cups & Balls Combination-Large Size Aluminum" - $42.00):

http://www.morrisseymagic.com/morrissey_closeup1.htm?zoom_highlight=cups+and+balls

Again, just for beginners on a tight budget. You might want to ask about the correct size of ball you need for those cups (3/4 inch, and 1 inch). You'll find what you need.

Again, if it were me, I'd go with RNTII. Save your money. Get the BEST. Donnie will hook you up.

Doug
Message: Posted by: Woland (Aug 26, 2010 10:48AM)
For an example of an elegant "three ball" routine that uses a single cup, one might consider Sr. Rene Lavand's magisterial performance, which has been posted in this forum before:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqzkGEvOOTc

A nice primer on the basic two-in-the-hand, one-in-the-pocket concept and routine can be found in the Lewis Ganson Teach-In that is available as an e-book from lybrary.com.

Woland
Message: Posted by: QuailCreek (Aug 26, 2010 11:23AM)
Hi Doug,
Thank you for the input. The price isn't that much of an issue. I really just want to make the good choice and then move on from there. Although I'm beginning to see what everybody's been talking about. There are a whole lot of cups out there and they are pretty nice looking. I might end up with several sets in order to make a final decision. Oh well... ;-)

Tom


[quote]
On 2010-08-26 10:15, Dougini wrote:
QuailCreek,

I like that Ricky Jay routine. That's an example of an original routine. Have you decided on your cups? I've been a few places on the 'net, and can't find a nicer set than RNTII.

Mendoza Combo Cups/Copper/Mirror Finish, yes. If you can afford them, that's the set to buy. And, I appreciate everyone's video additions as well. Wow, what an education on the Cups & Balls.

For beginners on a budget, I have to say, $26 ain't bad for a nice set, at Morrissey Magic.

These are the ones I had for many years (scroll all the way to the bottom, "Cups & Balls Combination-Large Size Aluminum" - $42.00):

http://www.morrisseymagic.com/morrissey_closeup1.htm?zoom_highlight=cups+and+balls

Again, just for beginners on a tight budget. You might want to ask about the correct size of ball you need for those cups (3/4 inch, and 1 inch). You'll find what you need.

Again, if it were me, I'd go with RNTII. Save your money. Get the BEST. Donnie will hook you up.

Doug
[/quote]

And the technique is easy to understand and fairly simple to perform, at least the basics. You can go in so many different directions too.

[quote]
On 2010-08-25 08:05, sethb wrote:
Tom -- Now you can see why the Cups & Balls has survived for hundreds, if not thousands of years: it's a great and very versatile trick!

Have fun with it, and please let us know how and what you're doing. SETH
[/quote]
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Aug 26, 2010 11:31AM)
Any chance you can get to a brick/mortar shop? And/or have some friends with cups sets come to a club meeting so you can touch/feel?
Message: Posted by: QuailCreek (Aug 26, 2010 11:45AM)
Great idea Pete. We have several clubs here is the Seattle area. I'll ping some of the guys and see what they can do for me.

Thanks,
Tom

Posted: Aug 26, 2010 1:44pm
Does anyone have a link to or the dimensional stats on these cups?
Copper Princess 2 Cups by RNT2
Message: Posted by: Dale Houck (Aug 26, 2010 12:57PM)
Except for the saddle, these are basically copies of the Sherwood cups. They'll take three 1 1/8" balls nested in the saddle and a tennis ball for a final load. Do you need more specific stats than that?

I own Princess 2 cups, but I wouldn't if I didn't also own Sherwood cups. In fact, I own three sets of Sherwood cups and am on the list for a set of engraved cups as well. Just my opinion, but if you aren't trying to collect a variety of sets, it's best to buy the Sherwood cups because Brett designed these cups and changing the saddle a little bit doesn't really change the fact that it's Sherwood's design.
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Aug 26, 2010 04:44PM)
SEATTLE? Hey I used to work the races at Kent a lot... BTW... Master Payne is in your area... look for him, he's great with cups & balls.
Message: Posted by: QuailCreek (Aug 26, 2010 04:47PM)
Interesting. I can hear the cars racing from my house in Kent. I'll see if I can locate "Master Payne". Thanks Pete.

Hi Doug,
I looked at the Sherwood cups. The look impressive. The price isn't all that bad either. He mentions that they are "heavy". Any comment on that?

Tom


[quote]
On 2010-08-26 13:57, dhouck wrote:
Except for the saddle, these are basically copies of the Sherwood cups. They'll take three 1 1/8" balls nested in the saddle and a tennis ball for a final load. Do you need more specific stats than that?

I own Princess 2 cups, but I wouldn't if I didn't also own Sherwood cups. In fact, I own three sets of Sherwood cups and am on the list for a set of engraved cups as well. Just my opinion, but if you aren't trying to collect a variety of sets, it's best to buy the Sherwood cups because Brett designed these cups and changing the saddle a little bit doesn't really change the fact that it's Sherwood's design.
[/quote]
Message: Posted by: Dale Houck (Aug 26, 2010 05:05PM)
My copper Sherwood cups weigh 6.6 ounces each. Each one weighs the same.

My copper Princess 2 cups weigh 6.0 oz, 6.2 oz, and 6.5 oz.

I guess technically, I own two sets of copper Sherwood cups. I have a silver plated set as well. They weigh 6.2 oz, 6.6 oz and 6.7 oz.

It's not unusual for cups in a set to weigh in at slightly different weights.

Brett Sherwood lowered the price recently on his copper and brass cups from $425 to $300. I think it's a great price.

Dale
Message: Posted by: QuailCreek (Aug 26, 2010 05:19PM)
Me too. I'm waiting for a reply on availability of his combo set. So you figure that's a good fighting weight for cups?

Tom
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Aug 26, 2010 05:24PM)
The greatest thing about Brett's cups is that all the sets weigh just about the same. 6.6 ounces is an excellent weight for a cup.
Message: Posted by: Dale Houck (Aug 26, 2010 05:36PM)
I agree with Bill, 6.6 oz is an excellent weight.

I will also mention, since you're looking at combo cups, the new Foxy III cups from RNT2 are great. They weigh just slightly less than the Sherwood cups and my set will only take three 1" balls for the nest instead of three 1 1/8", but I'm super pleased with them. I think you'll find that both Brett Sherwood and Donnie Buckley at RNT2 are great to work with.

Have fun deciding!

Dale
Message: Posted by: QuailCreek (Aug 26, 2010 05:41PM)
Thanks allot Bill. The price for his combo set is very reasonable.

Nice to be chatting over Bill and Dale.

Sorry, I couldn't resist... maybe I should have tried harder.
Message: Posted by: robbyrob (Aug 26, 2010 07:47PM)
Hey - just thought I'd throw in here. I would highly recommend spending some time on rtt2.com site to get a feel for cup sizes, load capacities, weight, etc.

As far as dvds go, I would highly recommend going to themagicwarehouse.com - they have a deal right now you can get all three World's Greatest Magic DVDs for $50. Also, I would highly recommend the Ammar DVDs. I also like Tommy Wonder's two cup routine on DVD.

Rob
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Aug 26, 2010 09:11PM)
Thanks, Rob! That IS a good price. Magic Warehouse is a great company! The Ammar routine is one of the best. That is, next to the ol' Professor himself! LOL!

Doug
Message: Posted by: QuailCreek (Aug 26, 2010 09:38PM)
Thanks Rob. I actually just picked those three DVDs up at Penguin for $45 along with few others.

Tom

[quote]
On 2010-08-26 20:47, robbyrob wrote:
Hey - just thought I'd throw in here. I would highly recommend spending some time on rtt2.com site to get a feel for cup sizes, load capacities, weight, etc.

As far as dvds go, I would highly recommend going to themagicwarehouse.com - they have a deal right now you can get all three World's Greatest Magic DVDs for $50. Also, I would highly recommend the Ammar DVDs. I also like Tommy Wonder's two cup routine on DVD.

Rob
[/quote]
Message: Posted by: kentfgunn (Aug 26, 2010 10:59PM)
Hey,

What about this guy's DVD?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEYmGnK4K9g

I hear he's still selling it!

Seriously though, this is NOT a good routine to start with. Just kidding.

KG
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Aug 26, 2010 11:40PM)
I know that guy. He stood right next to me during the whole WMS in 2009.
Message: Posted by: Tim Dowd (Aug 27, 2010 05:49AM)
Hi Kent,

I just downloaded your routine and it is fantastic... not for beginners is right... I will be 50 on September 12th and my family have been asking what I want... so now I am going to get a set of cups 'n' balls, plus the rest of the paraphernalia needed to do this routine justice...

hope to be ready for the holiday season this year...

my favorite line in your booklet is "...The cups have to be very short in relationship to how big your balls are..."
Message: Posted by: kentfgunn (Aug 27, 2010 10:28AM)
Bill,

Doing the cups and balls, standing next to the portion of the museum that was in LV, remains a huge highlight for me. I think Auke was to our right. It was a little piece of cups and balls heaven, for me. You were so very gracious. Thank you.

Tim, have fun with that thing. Watch out though, I hear the routine takes some practice to get up and going.

KG
Message: Posted by: Rainboguy (Aug 27, 2010 12:03PM)
Donnie Buckley:

I have been and still am completely happy with both my Mendoza Combo set and my Monti SS Bells of St. Mary's cups....but.....I must say that that new set of Foxy3 Combos on your Website looks pretty tasty!
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Aug 27, 2010 12:35PM)
[quote]
On 2010-08-27 11:28, kentfgunn wrote:
Bill,

Doing the cups and balls, standing next to the portion of the museum that was in LV, remains a huge highlight for me. I think Auke was to our right. It was a little piece of cups and balls heaven, for me. You were so very gracious. Thank you.

Tim, have fun with that thing. Watch out though, I hear the routine takes some practice to get up and going.

KG
[/quote]

Kent:

I enjoyed the whole thing immensely. It was a real hoot to have all of those folks looking at my toys!
Message: Posted by: Donnie Buckley (Aug 27, 2010 01:09PM)
[quote]
On 2010-08-26 18:36, dhouck wrote:
I agree with Bill, 6.6 oz is an excellent weight.

I will also mention, since you're looking at combo cups, the new Foxy III cups from RNT2 are great. They weigh just slightly less than the Sherwood cups and my set will only take three 1" balls for the nest instead of three 1 1/8", but I'm super pleased with them. I think you'll find that both Brett Sherwood and Donnie Buckley at RNT2 are great to work with.

Have fun deciding!

Dale
[/quote]

The Foxy 3 Cups do average 6.3 ounces each, but the Foxy 3 Combo Cups average 8 ounces each.

And thanks for noticing Rainboguy!
Message: Posted by: Donnie Buckley (Aug 27, 2010 03:15PM)
I'm heading out of town this weekend, but just finished up the Foxy 3 Automatic Combo cup.
For your pleasure, here is a picture of it:
[img]http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq211/ddecae/Automatic-Foxy3-600.jpg[/img]
This is, of course, [i]only[/i] for the truly sleight-impared.
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Aug 27, 2010 05:07PM)
Kent, that was a TERRIFIC routine! I assume (whispering), those are the Sherwood Combo's. Beautiful! I love being fooled, and that one fooled me! I think you've got one of the best routines I've ever seen! Hey, I don't get out much, and I've lived in a cave (or darn close to it) for a while.

I'm not exaggerating, when I praise that routine of yours. Truly magical!

Best,
Doug
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Aug 27, 2010 11:54PM)
[quote]
On 2010-08-27 16:15, Donnie Buckley wrote:
I'm heading out of town this weekend, but just finished up the Foxy 3 Automatic Combo cup.
For your pleasure, here is a picture of it:
[img]http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq211/ddecae/Automatic-Foxy3-600.jpg[/img]
This is, of course, [i]only[/i] for the truly sleight-impared.
[/quote]

I know what the switch up top is for. That's the on-off switch. I know what the two switches on the left are. But what are the ones on the right?
Message: Posted by: jazzy snazzy (Aug 28, 2010 05:53AM)
Does that come with an AC adapter?