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Topic: Golden touch Craps scam?
Message: Posted by: blackeagle (Aug 30, 2010 07:39PM)
So before we even begin I know that Steve Forte mentions that it is impossible for someone to control the roll of a pair of dice while at a casino craps game. However, this site claims that controlled shots are possible at the casino table. I will post a link at the bottom. I was able to acquire a copy of their "Training" dvd and they are very serious their technique. So my question is, does anyone have any comments on the legitimacy of this product. They claim a controlled dice shooter see's improvements in about 3-6 months.

http://www.goldentouchcraps.com/GTCDVD.shtml
Message: Posted by: iamslow (Aug 30, 2010 08:57PM)
That guy Frank is an awesome story teller...
Message: Posted by: Maitre D (Aug 30, 2010 10:17PM)
It's a bunch of bull****, and you should demand a refund for your time and money. You should know better.
Message: Posted by: Clock (Aug 30, 2010 10:23PM)
Dice setters!

Weird, I just deleted the video files off my computer not 30 minutes ago. :)

I was also curious about the tape, as Frank told me that there many slow motion shots in the video from multiple angles.

Their theory is that when simultaneously 'back spinning' both dice on a pre-set axis, the better chance those dice will stay on axis after they hit the layout and kiss the back wall. Frank Scoblete argued with me that Steve's test was not a true test because the dice were just 'dropped'.

After watching the tape, the conclusion I quickly made (along with countless others) was that it's all a clever mix of psuedo-physics and self deception (not to mention clever marketing). In other words...

Complete baloney.

All the facts of 'golden touch' dice control can be considered TRUE up until the moment they hit the layout. After that... game over. But what about after they hit the layout? What keeps them on axis? The video has a lot of great explanations such as...

"...the dice should land soft."
"...minimal bounce."
"...brush the back wall and die."

Like many scientific theories it all looks and sounds good. When examined closely, though, there really is no science to it.

The slow motion shots were ridiculous. Many were from far away, the close-up ones were blurry, and they used the same shots over and over; the ones that 'looked good'. That's how they seem to judge if it held up... if it looked pretty.

Out of curiosity, I filmed some throws with a high speed (slow motion) camera. They were true, non blurry, super slow motion shots of the dice back spinning; hitting the layout PERFECTLY; then flailing about wildly on all different axis'... no control.

Don't ask me why I did this. I knew it was baloney from the start... I just wanted to have a 1 up on the people who just spit out what other people tell them.

But at they end of the day, they don't care. They smile and say "The more people that don't believe the better for us..."

Suck down that delicious Kool Aid. I won't stop you. As for certain other forms of dice control though... :devilish:
Message: Posted by: Clock (Aug 30, 2010 10:24PM)
I don't think it needs to be said whether or not I purchased the tape. :)
Message: Posted by: blackeagle (Aug 31, 2010 01:35AM)
Trust me, I didn't purchase these items.
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Aug 31, 2010 02:54AM)
It's fairly easy to determine if you're exerting any real control over the dice. Set and throw them 1,000 times and see if you can get the results to fall outside 3 standard deviations.

If you're within 3 standard deviations, then your outcome is almost certainly the result of pure chance. If you do manage to get results that fall outside of 3 standard deviations, then I'm interested.

Jason
Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 31, 2010 05:07AM)
I don’t know as I don'y play the game but I think Backgammon is a more interesting proposition for, not this, but for this kind of thing and I don‘t find it altogether uninteresting.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Aug 31, 2010 05:43AM)
[quote]
On 2010-08-30 20:39, blackeagle wrote:
So before we even begin I know that Steve Forte mentions that it is impossible for someone to control the roll of a pair of dice while at a casino craps game.
[/quote]

Where did he ever say that?

On the contrary, on pg. 274 of Casino Game Protection he says "Yes, it is, unquestionably, possible to control the dice on a regulation casino crap table."

You are misquoting him and his commentary on the subject of dice setting.
Message: Posted by: splice (Aug 31, 2010 06:59AM)
Didn't Steve set-up a test where he dropped dice from the same height repeatedly, recorded the results (something like 5, 6 thousand times), and found that they didn't fall outside the expected results, IE, that of random numbers? I thought from this he concluded that there wasn't much value in the "dice setting" method. Other methods of controlling the dice, sure, but not dice setting.
Message: Posted by: kcg5 (Aug 31, 2010 10:34AM)
I also wondered where SF said that.. And I do believe he made a several thousand drop test and concluded that setting did nothing.

If I'm not correct, many of the casinos don't care if you set the dice at all.
Message: Posted by: Clock (Aug 31, 2010 10:51AM)
[quote]
On 2010-08-30 20:39, blackeagle wrote:

...Steve Forte mentions that it is impossible for someone to control the roll of a pair of dice while at a casino craps game.

[/quote]

Z is simply saying that Blackeagle misquoted SF on the subject of dice control in the casino in a couple of ways. Dice control should not be confused with dice setting.

-SF mentions a controlled throw is possible a casino craps table (not dice setting).
-SF doesn't say dice control (dice setting) is "impossible", but from his tests no evidence warrants further research on his part. He is yet to be a believer.

No big deal. Just needed to be cleared up.
Message: Posted by: Bret Maverick (Aug 31, 2010 11:29AM)
[quote] On 2010-08-30 20:39, blackeagle wrote:
So before we even begin I know that Steve Forte mentions that it is impossible for someone to control the roll of a pair of dice while at a casino craps game. [/quote]

[quote] On the contrary, on pg. 274 of Casino Game Protection he says "Yes, it is, unquestionably, possible to control the dice on a regulation casino crap table."

You are misquoting him and his commentary on the subject of dice setting.
[/quote]

As Z pointed out, blackeagle, you are confusing Steve Forte's views on dice setting (on pages 294 - 297 of CGP) with controlled dice shots, which are two completely different animals.

Dice, as anyone who has seen Steve (as well as Z and a few other members) throw the dice will attest to, can be controlled by a talented and well-practiced scooter or spinner.

Dice Setting systems start with the premise that “setting” the dice and holding them so that the spots are aligned in a specific pattern as they are released will favor desired numbers. One preferred alignment is the Three Vee, wherein the threes are positioned on top of the dice forming a Vee shaped Hard Six; a six on the front comprised of the 5 and 1; an eight on the back comprised of a 2 and 6; an eight on the inside comprised of a 6 and 2; a six on the outside walls comprised of the 1 and 5; and a Hard Eight (two fours) on the bottom. A seven allegedly cannot be rolled with this set-up when the dice are expertly tossed.

A few of the system-sellers tout the power of the human mind in controlling dice, while others focus on the muscle memory developed through the consistent “setting” and tossing of the dice resulting in the development of a skill akin to throwing darts at the competitive level. With a degree in physical education and as a former Division I college baseball pitcher I certainly appreciate the role that mental concentration plays in the development and execution of human motor skills. Nevertheless, no one will ever convince me that the power of suggestion or “mind-control” will affect the roll of the dice once they leave the shooter’s hand, as alleged by several dice control hucksters plying their wares to the gullible on the Internet. Therefore, I’ll limit my comments herein to those touting legitimate elements of skill in setting and rolling the dice, where the object is to gain an advantage over the house by rolling more sevens and elevens than probability dictates on the come-out roll, and fewer sevens than should be expected after a point has been established.

Steve Forte recorded the results of twelve thousand outcomes during tests wherein two dice were held in an identical manner (the alignment of the six facing upwards and the five facing him, and the gripping of the fingers were precisely matched to ensure consistancy) and were dropped straight down onto a felt covered table from an identical height of ten inches. During his experiment Mr. Forte reasonably expected that, if the dice-control proponents were correct and certain numbers on each die can be rolled by holding and throwing the dice the same way and ensuring that they landed similarly, the outcomes obtained in his test where the dice were dropped straight down, flat against the table would reveal biases defying “the laws of probability” more definitively than would the throwing of two dice across the length of a regulation craps table.

Mr. Forte’s dice-dropping method also eliminated the requirement that the dice hit the angled rubber padding at the bottom of the craps table’s diamond-shaped side walls designed to thwart controlled dice shots. (As the Dice Setting system sellers all admit, once a die hits the sidewall’s rubber diamonds, what was intended to be a controlled dice shot will result in a random outcome, meaning that, even if the shooter’s desired number is rolled after hitting the diamonds, the outcome was the result of chance, and not the skill of the shooter.) To control the dice, one must hit the angled padding just below the diamonds, or not hit the sidewall at all, a roll that will likely draw heat when it's painfully obvious what the shooter is attempting.

Mr. Forte’s tests indicate that setting the dice and dropping them onto a felt-covered tabletop did not reveal any statistical anomalies supporting the position that certain numbers will roll more frequently than probability suggests. Based upon the results of his experiment, Mr. Forte maintains, until empirical evidence proves otherwise, that dice control remains one of casino folklore’s unproven myths.

Interestingly, gaming guru Stanford Wong entered the dice setting ring and, surprisingly in my view, touted the possibility of such control, although the number of test rolls was unconvincing. According to Mike Shackleford on his Wizard of Odds website, blackjack guru Stanford Wong (John Ferguson) became interested in “dice setting” after attending a four day conference in 2004 and, after rethinking his earlier conviction that dice control was impossible, bet a non-believing professional gambler that he and a dice-setting partner identified only as “Little Joe” could roll fewer than 79.5 sevens in five hundred rolls of the dice. Here’s Mr. Shackleford’s account of the action:


[quote] From Wizard Of Odds
Stanford Wong Experiment
In August 2004 debate was still raging at Stanford Wong's site bj21.com about dice setting. The discussion can be found under the member's only Green Chip section on craps. A professional gambler there challenged Wong to a bet. The terms of the bet were whether precision shooters could roll fewer than 79.5 sevens in 500 rolls of the dice. The expected number in a random game would be 83.33. The probability of rolling fewer than 79 or fewer sevens in 500 random rolls is 32.66%.

I was asked to be a monitor for the event but was out of the country at the time. However I did make an $1800 bet on the over with a well known gambling writer. The dates and locations of the event were kept very quiet and are not being made available to the public. The shooters were Wong himself and someone known only as "Little Joe." According to Wong the experiment went well and not one roll was called dead nor disputed by the two sides of the bet present at the event. The following table shows the results by shooter.

Wong Experiment Results
Shooter Total Rolls Total Sevens Percent Sevens
Wong 278 45 16.19%
Little Joe 222 29 13.06%
Total 500 74 14.80%

Congratulations to Wong on winning with five sevens to spare. The probability of rolling 74 or fewer sevens in 500 random rolls is 14.41%.

Combined Results
Looking only at the non-come out rolls where the goal is to not roll a seven there are 579 rolls between the two experiments and 88 sevens for a seven rate of 15.20%. Assuming this rate continued it would take at least 5000 rolls to make a solid case that the dice are in fact being influenced, in my opinion. The probability of 760 or fewer sevens in 5000 random rolls would be 0.29%. I hope to add more rolls to this ongoing study in the future.[/quote]

Whether or not dice can be influenced to tilt the odds in the shooter’s favor sufficiently to gain an edge will likely remain the subject of many debates as long as people keep the sellers in business. Like Steve Forte and The Wiz, though, I question the validity of an experiment comprised of only five hundred rolls; certainly the five thousand rolls The Wiz recommends, or the twelve thousand rolls in Steve Forte’s test would yield more accurate data.
Message: Posted by: MickeyPainless (Aug 31, 2010 12:57PM)
Very cool info Bret, thanks for posting it!

MMc
Message: Posted by: blackeagle (Aug 31, 2010 01:30PM)
[quote]
On 2010-08-31 06:43, Mr. Z wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-08-30 20:39, blackeagle wrote:
So before we even begin I know that Steve Forte mentions that it is impossible for someone to control the roll of a pair of dice while at a casino craps game.
[/quote]

Where did he ever say that?

On the contrary, on pg. 274 of Casino Game Protection he says "Yes, it is, unquestionably, possible to control the dice on a regulation casino crap table."

You are misquoting him and his commentary on the subject of dice setting.
[/quote]

I guess you do not know the difference between quoting and paraphrasing. Before saying I "misquoted" (and yes this would be a prime example of quoting) him, you must understand that I never used quotation marks thus making quoting impossible.

Read up on some English techniques.
http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/563/01/

Now that the English 101 lesson is finished, we can continue with the topic. From my understanding, Steve Forste mentioned that it was nearly impossible to control dice via dice setting. That's what I was told at least.
Message: Posted by: silverking (Aug 31, 2010 02:04PM)
If Mr.Z has any questions he needs to ask Mr.Forte, he just needs to look over his mug of beer and ask him.

Further, I too read your post as if you were attempting to quote Mr.Forte......regardless of how you want to paint it now, that's what you were obviously doing.

(If you want to teach [i]me[/i] some lessons now.....I'm ready).
Message: Posted by: splice (Aug 31, 2010 02:18PM)
That's a dick move, blackeagle. What you're saying now is not what you said originally. Not to mention that paraphrasing means restating something in your own words. You should read that again: RESTATING, not REINTERPRETING.

[quote]I know that Steve Forte mentions that it is impossible for someone to control the roll of a pair of dice while at a casino craps game.[/quote]

Read that again, and a second and third time too. Where in that paraphrase do you even mention dice setting? You say right out "it is impossible for someone to CONTROL THE ROLL OF A PAIR OF DICE WHILE AT A CASINO CRAPS TABLE." That's not what Steve says at all, so you're not paraphrasing, you're reinterpreting.

Stupid little grandstanding aside, the simple fact that you're speaking to Mr. Z that way is sure to make you absolutely no friends here. Have some respect, and grow enough of a pair that you can accept it when you make a simple, stupid mistake.
Message: Posted by: kcg5 (Aug 31, 2010 02:39PM)
[quote]
On 2010-08-31 14:30, blackeagle wrote:
From my understanding, Steve Forste mentioned that it was nearly impossible to control dice via dice setting. That's what I was told at least.
[/quote]

So now it goes from "Steve Forte mentions that it is impossible for someone to control the roll of a pair of dice while at a casino craps game" to him mentioning, as someone you know told you, that it is NEARLY impossible to control dice with SETTING?


And purdue sucks.
Message: Posted by: Clock (Aug 31, 2010 02:50PM)
[quote]
I guess you do not know the difference between quoting and paraphrasing.
[/quote]


You didn't paraphrase. You paraphrased a quote out of a book incorrectly so it can be interpreted another way... misquoting. Journalists write public apologies all the time for 'misquoting' someones views when no quotations are involved. The term misparaphrasing isn't a word.

Who cares?

I was simply trying to clear things up. What you said could have been interpreted a couple of different way's. Because you haven't been fortunate enough to read the book... I was just trying to help.

I'm sure Mr. "Forste" would agree you should probably read up on some English lessons before any of us.
Message: Posted by: Clock (Aug 31, 2010 02:57PM)
Back in 82, I could throw a pair of cubes over a quarter mile and have two 6's hold up.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Aug 31, 2010 03:28PM)
Blackeagle speaks with forked tongue.

[quote]
On 2010-08-31 15:57, Clock wrote:
Back in 82, I could throw a pair of cubes over a quarter mile and have two 6's hold up.
[/quote]
Ha. That is nothing I can hit a golf ball over 500 yards with a 5 iron and have done it several times. No hills or cliffs. No trick ball or club. Also I can teach you how to do it. It works better than this dice control thingy.
Message: Posted by: splice (Aug 31, 2010 03:47PM)
Yeah, and I can heave a pumpkin over a two-story building.
Message: Posted by: blackeagle (Aug 31, 2010 04:08PM)
I should actually apologize. I am kinda sick and kinda snapped for some odd reason. I will admit when I am out of line.

Posted: Aug 31, 2010 5:25pm
Also what I did was paraphrase.

If anyone cares, here it is.
Paraphrasing involves putting a passage from source material into your own words. A paraphrase must also be attributed to the original source. Paraphrased material is usually shorter than the original passage, taking a somewhat broader segment of the source and condensing it slightly.

Also, I knew what dice controlled shots were, however I did not know the name of this dice setting. I knew it was different than controlled shots, but I didn't know what to call it. I just classified it under the same category but to insure difference I just added "while at a casino craps game." So its Dice setting. Got it!

And hypocritically, I have somewhat terrible English. Even though I go to one of the most prestigious Engineering schools in the nation, my specialty is math. English just doesn't pay off as much now a days.
Message: Posted by: silverking (Aug 31, 2010 04:29PM)
[quote]
On 2010-08-31 17:08, blackeagle wrote:
I should actually apologize.
[/quote]
Well go ahead then, apologize!

Saying [i]"I should actually apologize"[/i] is different from saying [i]"I was a dick, sorry Mr.Z"[/i].

Quit being a dick.......there's a club here for dicks, it's called the Vent'n'Dummy forum.
You may be asked to head on over there pending a proper apology to those you insulted with absolute intent.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Aug 31, 2010 04:35PM)
Splice,

It seems like you do not believe me. This is the Honest to God Truth. Also I can teach you how to do it. If I teach you here on the open forum will you send The Café a $5.00 donation if you agree that it works? If after I teach it to you and it does not work I will send The Café a $5.00 donation. All this depends on you being able to strike a golf ball like a fair player. Someone who shoots in the 90's or low hundreds. I am sure after I teach you the secret all the golfers here will agree and most if not all will be able to do it.
Message: Posted by: blackeagle (Aug 31, 2010 04:35PM)
Sorry Mr. Z, the next time we hang out ill buy you a beer.
Message: Posted by: splice (Aug 31, 2010 04:42PM)
Aces, I believe you, and the place I read how to do exactly what you said, I read how to do exactly what I said. Sorry for the wording, but yeah, I really can heave a pumpkin over a two-story building. Also, same guy originated both bets (or at least the way I'm reading it).
Message: Posted by: acesover (Aug 31, 2010 04:49PM)
Splice,

I figured you would probably know the secret. Maybe we should tell Tiger about it. Just thought I would have a little fun.

I have to think about the pumpkin throw. Ha, ha. Not sure how to do that ...yet.
Message: Posted by: blackeagle (Aug 31, 2010 04:51PM)
Hey stop it guys your picking on me !!!! ha ha
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Aug 31, 2010 05:48PM)
[quote]
On 2010-08-31 17:35, blackeagle wrote:
Sorry Mr. Z, the next time we hang out ill buy you a beer.
[/quote]

Cute. And no worries.
Message: Posted by: Maitre D (Aug 31, 2010 08:17PM)
Lucky. I wish Master Z would call [i]me[/i] cute.
Message: Posted by: kcg5 (Aug 31, 2010 09:00PM)
Splice, did you ever see that golf movie with Kevin Costner and don Johnson ? (forgot the name)

I think they do your 500yd drive
Message: Posted by: iamslow (Sep 1, 2010 03:43AM)
[quote]
On 2010-08-31 22:00, kcg5 wrote:
Splice, did you ever see that golf movie with Kevin Costner and don Johnson ? (forgot the name)

I think they do your 500yd drive
[/quote]
Tin Cup?
Message: Posted by: MickeyPainless (Sep 1, 2010 10:04AM)
Good movie!
Message: Posted by: kcg5 (Sep 1, 2010 10:47AM)
Yep, that's the one. One of them drives it for a loooooong way
Message: Posted by: gadfly3d (Sep 6, 2010 09:47AM)
"As the Dice Setting system sellers all admit, once a die hits the sidewall’s rubber diamonds, what was intended to be a controlled dice shot will result in a random outcome, meaning that, even if the shooter’s desired number is rolled after hitting the diamonds, the outcome was the result of chance, and not the skill of the shooter."

Doesn't this quote from Brett Maverick mean that you can't control the dice in a casino game? Or have you found casinos were they don't require you to hit the wall?
Message: Posted by: kcg5 (Sep 6, 2010 10:22AM)
As I understand it, casinos don't.... ah, forget it. Dilettantes.
Message: Posted by: Cyberqat (Sep 13, 2010 11:08AM)
[quote]
On 2010-08-31 17:42, splice wrote:
Aces, I believe you, and the place I read how to do exactly what you said, I read how to do exactly what I said. Sorry for the wording, but yeah, I really can heave a pumpkin over a two-story building. Also, same guy originated both bets (or at least the way I'm reading it).
[/quote]

Well, all you need to do is launch it from an appropriately higher building at an appropriate distance, right?
Message: Posted by: splice (Sep 13, 2010 11:34AM)
No, I meant from ground level, and the building isn't sunken or anything tricky like that.
Message: Posted by: kcg5 (Sep 13, 2010 11:46AM)
20 ft? they make pumpkins that are hand sized..
Message: Posted by: Tony45 (Nov 25, 2010 01:36AM)
I was searching for dice threads and saw this one and I almost fell out of my chair laughing and decided to throw this out for you guys.


Let me give a brief bio of myself : I started in magic in the mid 70s till about 81-82 more or less. In 82 I went to work as a crap and 21 dealer in the NY city area, I was taught by a friend of mine on the job, so to speak. I worked under ground for 6 years till I moved to Vegas in 88 and am still a crap, 21, roulette dealer. Now this shot cant possibly work and I have seen literally 100,s try it, lol. The main reason is the alligator, the thing on the back wall with all the grooves and it ends near the bottom of the table with a sharp lip that would negate anything you tried to throw at it. Trust me, I tried for years to : GET IT ON ! lol

Now before I learned to deal I had bought all the books I could find on dice and learned to switch,palm and thumb. The drop shot, the spin shot, the greek shot, the blanket roll, etc.. I did a lot of things I'm not proud of but I attribute it to being young and stupid, whatever. I also had a very good teacher who was an old time mechanic/magician/shylock, lol. I miss him to this day, name was Tao.
Anyway, I worked all sorts of games back there, cash games, Vegas style games, chop games, I did very well, especially for a kid. Well, I'm working this game for this guy I had worked for on and off for a while and he had games running 6 nights a week, 5 nights a week in the Jewsish synagagues,different ones and the friday night game was in a Catholic church and he never got popped and this went on for years ! Shows you the power of Religion, eh ? lol. Anyway, our crap tables were take apart style meaning they were like boxes on top of a double sided folding table, its tough for me to describe so I'm not going to try, anyway on these tables the alligator didn't go all the way to the bottom, it stopped about 4 inches short and didn't have the curved lip as the Vegas tables all do ! I used to fool around before we opened throwing the greek shot at it and connecting a good part of the time. So one friday night at the Church, I'm on the stick and this guy who I never saw before and was standing on my left gets the dice and bets 11/12 for $10 each and shakes the dice and shoots and my eyes almost bugged out ! He was using the lock grip which caught my eye right away because of the outstretched knuckles and the sound and I watched the dice hit the bottom perfectly, he held up a 6 and the other one went flying ! I started smiling and watched what he did next, placed the 8,9,10 and bet the 11/12. I forget what the rolls were as this was a long time ago but after the third shot I whispered to him "that's the greatest shot I ever saw". The guy almost turned white ! He looked at me and I knew what he was thinking, but I said its all right, do what you got to do. And he did ! So I go on break and we had a long table with coffee and cake and he came over 5 mins later and we made small talk, he said I was the first guy to ever spot him and thanked me for not turning him in or making a wave. I laughed and said something like birds of a feather should stick together, lol. He came back regular after that and I always got a little present from him. Nice guy.
I got a lot of stories about those times and I got to say those were the best times I ever had.
But any of these guys who tell you they can control dice on a regular table, the only way that's going to happen is if they don't hit the wall and slide them and I caught a few of those mopes also. I might as well mention that I was one of those mopes myself who took the shot in AC quite a few times till I got a little heat and figured this aint worth it.

Oh, before I forget, there were two supply houses in Manhattan back then that I would pick tuff up from, paper, T,s, whatever. One was on 8th ave inbetween 36th and 37th or 37th and 38th, and one was on w39th between 8th and 9th. The one guy I used to know was called Abe or Abie at the place on 8th, he was in his late 70,s or early 80,s back then and he used to tell me stories once in a while after I was introduced to him. Does anyone here remember either of those places ? I have been looking for a set of drug store 2-3-6,s to use in a routine I'm working on and cant find anyone who deals online.

Sorry to ramble on but this seems like the place to tell war stories and I got tons, lol.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 25, 2010 08:06AM)
I have a question. I know the guy on that web site had written a book "How to Beat the Craps Out of the Casinos" (I believe that was the title.

I always thought of him as a story teller. Every time I saw him he never managed to back up anything he said, and much of what he said made no mathmatical sense in the least.

I want to understand, are people saying the system is good or bad. (Just to clarify I am sorry.) I know at some point the discussion is about "dice setting" vs. "controled throws" right? So would someone with more smarts than I (which from what I can tell is ANYONE who has posted so far.) sort of run a summary?

I was just curious if Frank was actually a charlitan or not.
Message: Posted by: iamslow (Nov 25, 2010 11:09AM)
[quote]
On 2010-11-25 02:36, Tony45 wrote:
I was searching for dice threads and saw this one and I almost fell out of my chair laughing and decided to throw this out for you guys.


Let me give a brief bio of myself : I started in magic in the mid 70s till about 81-82 more or less. In 82 I went to work as a crap and 21 dealer in the NY city area, I was taught by a friend of mine on the job, so to speak. I worked under ground for 6 years till I moved to Vegas in 88 and am still a crap, 21, roulette dealer. Now this shot cant possibly work and I have seen literally 100,s try it, lol. The main reason is the alligator, the thing on the back wall with all the grooves and it ends near the bottom of the table with a sharp lip that would negate anything you tried to throw at it. Trust me, I tried for years to : GET IT ON ! lol

Now before I learned to deal I had bought all the books I could find on dice and learned to switch,palm and thumb. The drop shot, the spin shot, the greek shot, the blanket roll, etc.. I did a lot of things I'm not proud of but I attribute it to being young and stupid, whatever. I also had a very good teacher who was an old time mechanic/magician/shylock, lol. I miss him to this day, name was Tao.
Anyway, I worked all sorts of games back there, cash games, Vegas style games, chop games, I did very well, especially for a kid. Well, I'm working this game for this guy I had worked for on and off for a while and he had games running 6 nights a week, 5 nights a week in the Jewsish synagagues,different ones and the friday night game was in a Catholic church and he never got popped and this went on for years ! Shows you the power of Religion, eh ? lol. Anyway, our crap tables were take apart style meaning they were like boxes on top of a double sided folding table, its tough for me to describe so I'm not going to try, anyway on these tables the alligator didn't go all the way to the bottom, it stopped about 4 inches short and didn't have the curved lip as the Vegas tables all do ! I used to fool around before we opened throwing the greek shot at it and connecting a good part of the time. So one friday night at the Church, I'm on the stick and this guy who I never saw before and was standing on my left gets the dice and bets 11/12 for $10 each and shakes the dice and shoots and my eyes almost bugged out ! He was using the lock grip which caught my eye right away because of the outstretched knuckles and the sound and I watched the dice hit the bottom perfectly, he held up a 6 and the other one went flying ! I started smiling and watched what he did next, placed the 8,9,10 and bet the 11/12. I forget what the rolls were as this was a long time ago but after the third shot I whispered to him "that's the greatest shot I ever saw". The guy almost turned white ! He looked at me and I knew what he was thinking, but I said its all right, do what you got to do. And he did ! So I go on break and we had a long table with coffee and cake and he came over 5 mins later and we made small talk, he said I was the first guy to ever spot him and thanked me for not turning him in or making a wave. I laughed and said something like birds of a feather should stick together, lol. He came back regular after that and I always got a little present from him. Nice guy.
I got a lot of stories about those times and I got to say those were the best times I ever had.
But any of these guys who tell you they can control dice on a regular table, the only way that's going to happen is if they don't hit the wall and slide them and I caught a few of those mopes also. I might as well mention that I was one of those mopes myself who took the shot in AC quite a few times till I got a little heat and figured this aint worth it.

Oh, before I forget, there were two supply houses in Manhattan back then that I would pick tuff up from, paper, T,s, whatever. One was on 8th ave inbetween 36th and 37th or 37th and 38th, and one was on w39th between 8th and 9th. The one guy I used to know was called Abe or Abie at the place on 8th, he was in his late 70,s or early 80,s back then and he used to tell me stories once in a while after I was introduced to him. Does anyone here remember either of those places ? I have been looking for a set of drug store 2-3-6,s to use in a routine I'm working on and cant find anyone who deals online.

Sorry to ramble on but this seems like the place to tell war stories and I got tons, lol.
[/quote]

I think you're full of S(-)!T ... For someone that's "apparently" a dealer since the 80's.. you're telling a story about someone placing the 8,9,and10 and holding up a six and you don't remember what rolled???? yet, you told the guy that was one of the best shots you've seen... YOu gotta be Fu(&!n Kidding me...
Message: Posted by: Tony45 (Nov 25, 2010 12:36PM)
[quote]
On 2010-11-25 12:09, iamslow wrote:

I think you're full of S(-)!T ... For someone that's "apparently" a dealer since the 80's.. you're telling a story about someone placing the 8,9,and10 and holding up a six and you don't remember what rolled???? yet, you told the guy that was one of the best shots you've seen... You gotta be Fu(&!n Kidding me...
[/quote]
Hey imslow, it was over 25 years ago this happened, would it have made you feel better if I said it was a 12 that rolled ? What I remember was watching the bottom die go off the wall and land an inch or two away. Try not to think too much, you're living up to your name.

[quote]
On 2010-11-25 09:06, Dannydoyle wrote:
I have a question. I know the guy on that web site had written a book "How to Beat the Craps Out of the Casinos" (I believe that was the title.

I always thought of him as a story teller. Every time I saw him he never managed to back up anything he said, and much of what he said made no mathmatical sense in the least.

I want to understand, are people saying the system is good or bad. (Just to clarify I am sorry.) I know at some point the discussion is about "dice setting" vs. "controled throws" right? So would someone with more smarts than I (which from what I can tell is ANYONE who has posted so far.) sort of run a summary?

I was just curious if Frank was actually a charlitan or not.
[/quote]
Danny, I have yet to see anyone make it work on a REGULATION crap table, they're designed too well to allow it to happen. Over the years I have seen a ton of guys side up to players and try to sell them on all kinds of sure fire can't miss systems and they all crow when they work for a little bit but they disappear when they don't, and I've seen more disappearing than crowing, lol.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 25, 2010 02:59PM)
I have also seen my share of losers with systems, but that is simply anticdotal evidence and not really math.

I am not familiar enough with the game, and how much being able to place "odds" wagers changes it. Some places offer 100X odds and that may change things enough to eek out a small advantage on certain bets, and IF someone can "control throw" the dice enough to tip that a bit more who knows?

This is why I am wondering. My sphere of knowledge is far from complete and I was looking for a bit of an education. My "inclination" is no it is not possible, but that is not based on anything certain. It is an educated guess. I also know that just because I can not do it or figure out how it could be done by no means speaks to whether it can or can not be done.

Thanks for the response.
Message: Posted by: iamslow (Nov 25, 2010 07:48PM)
[quote]
On 2010-11-25 13:36, Tony45 wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-11-25 12:09, iamslow wrote:

I think you're full of S(-)!T ... For someone that's "apparently" a dealer since the 80's.. you're telling a story about someone placing the 8,9,and10 and holding up a six and you don't remember what rolled? yet, you told the guy that was one of the best shots you've seen... You gotta be Fu(&!n Kidding me...
[/quote]
Hey imslow, it was over 25 years ago this happened, would it have made you feel better if I said it was a 12 that rolled ? What I remember was watching the bottom die go off the wall and land an inch or two away. Try not to think too much, you're living up to your name.
[/quote]
You are almost as good a story teller as Frank...I'm not thinking too hard, I'm just observing little things that other Bull$(-)!tters have posted here throughout the days... When you been dealing dice that long, specially in a joint??? As far as I know, if someone went up to me and told me what you told that dude, you would have gotten punched in the mouth repeatedly and mabee stomped in the head a few times... and I couldn't give a FU[K who or how big you are... the bottom line, "it's on".. I got nothing against you personally, just pointing out things I notice... the same thing I've been doing to a lot of the Bu!!s(-)itters here. The latest one I like to point out is panlives, who told me in another thread he went to a great dealing school that went beyond shuffle mechanics, yet when asked the name of the school, he all of a sudden avoids the topic and doesn't respond. I can't remember the other names from the top of my head, but there's quite a few in here over the years. That's why most of the old guys don't post here anymore. It gets to you when that much BS is floating around. sorry guys.

Posted: Nov 25, 2010 9:15pm
Oh yeah, here's the link to the other topic I was speaking of from another area here... http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=389667&forum=2&15
Message: Posted by: Tony45 (Nov 26, 2010 12:45AM)
Well firstly, you shouldnt try to sound like a tough guy online, only makes you look foolish. Secondly, you raise your hands in that type of place, you are going to have a serious problem and quickly. If you had the type of street smarts that you try to make yourself out to have,i wouldnt have to tell you this.
But that aside, theres nothing unbelievable in the story I told, you make it sound like I was making outlandish claims of super natural ability. I understand people tell tales, trust me, this I know real well, but this happened.
Anyway, I did read that other thread and I'm wondering myself what 'Shuffle mechanics" this guy was taught. You go to work in a hotel, you shuffle the way they tell you and that's it.
By the way, Slow, whats your claim to fame ? Betting $10 on the do and $10 on the don't and getting a point and picking up the do bet ?
Have a nice day bro.
Message: Posted by: iamslow (Nov 26, 2010 09:13AM)
HI tony45, I apologize for trying to look foolish as I allready am a foolish prick...I was also kidding about the head stomp, but the punch in the mouth would likely still happen in that siuation where I worked... I should have read your post again, I forgot, you were playing in church.."there will be no fighting in church young man!"....Now that I have read your story, I now believe the story as there is nothing unbelievable about rolling a 6,x and then betting 8,9,10 and et.. but you forgot the outcome and 3 rolls later, that's the greatest roll you,ve ever seen?? which roll?? the first second or third?? or all three?? dude, I know Ive smoked a lot of wacky tabacky in my day, but was that you first day dealing dice?? I mean come on, I could shove the dice in my mouth and spit it across the table and roll 3 numbers... would you be impressed? Then you go on "break" with the guy??? then he thanks you for not being a rat?? What the Fook was the box doing?? sleeping?? what about second and third base before break??So I'm also assuming this person was winning because he was bringinging you presents?? Wait..W.T.F.??? You're allowed to accept presents at work???? And no one got jealous? ARE YOU FORKING KIDDING ME?? And no, that's not my claim to fame, because you can't pick up your ASS LINE bet once you gots a numero.... peace in the middle east...bye
Message: Posted by: silverking (Nov 26, 2010 09:28AM)
Iamslow is legitimately pointing out that some parts of your story seem somewhat incongruent with "real life" Tony.

Note that he doesn't look foolish at all, and as a matter of fact has pointed out numerous elements of your story that, quite frankly, you seem totally unable to address with any sort of sensible answer.

If you're going to kick-in with a somewhat over the top tale, don't be so surprised when some of the regulars around call you out on some of the more "interesting" elements of your purported adventure.
Message: Posted by: Tony45 (Nov 26, 2010 12:38PM)
[quote]
On 2010-11-26 10:13, iamslow wrote:
HI tony45, I apologize for trying to look foolish as I allready am a foolish prick...[/quote]

Well, at least we agree on something.
And you cant pick up your pass line bet after you got a point ? Gee, thanks for telling me that. As for the rest, believe what you want to, if I wanted to create a tale I could have done a lot better if I wanted to bs.
Stay well.
Message: Posted by: stoneunhinged (Nov 26, 2010 12:48PM)
Since I crave entertainment, I would love to hear more of your stories. Keep'em real as you can, and don't worry about us picking 'em apart.

I myself haven't the slightest idea of how things were back in the day. So tell your stories, please.

What is the old expression? Kill'em all and let God sort'em out?

Tony45, keep posting like the wind, and let God sort your posts out.

Of course, don't be offended if we turn on you because you've shown yourself to be an imposter. It's your risk--and hell, it's an Internet forum!, so the risk is low--so have at it.

If you're the real deal, take some time to convince us. If not, then post your fantasies. Why not? Everyone else does.

(Which is what iamslow objects to. And he's got a valid point.)

That's the lay of the land in this forum, as clear as I could make it.

You're welcome in advance!
Message: Posted by: iamslow (Nov 26, 2010 04:28PM)
[quote]
On 2010-11-26 13:38, Tony45 wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-11-26 10:13, iamslow wrote:
HI tony45, I apologize for trying to look foolish as I allready am a foolish prick...[/quote]

Well, at least we agree on something.
And you cant pick up your pass line bet after you got a point ? Gee, thanks for telling me that. As for the rest, believe what you want to, if I wanted to create a tale I could have done a lot better if I wanted to bs.
Stay well.
[/quote]

Yes, that's what everyone here agrees on... I am a prick.. and thanks for telling you about the pass line??? Dude, read your last question about my claim to fame... remember, you asked and I just answered... Or did you not know you cant pick up the pass line before my last post?? Tell us more stories please... I promise I'll leave you alone... bye



j
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Nov 26, 2010 07:46PM)
I'm lost as to why some find Tony's story to be so suspect. There is nothing in there that I find hard to believe.

iamslow, read the story again, the thing with the guy throwing a shot took place AT AN ILLEGAL ROUND TABLE GAME HELD IN A CHURCH BASEMENT, so you can throw all your casino procedures, protocols, etc... out the window. They don't apply there. Was there even a boxman? Why couldn't he accept a little cash on the side for looking the other way? Are there even two base dealers?

I've dealt on those break-down tables, most are so small you either have an outside stickman and one guy working base or it's dealt the same way as a one-man tub with one dealer working inside stick and dealing base all by himself.

Also don't compare your experiences in 2010 Canada versus what was going on in NYC in the 1970s. It could be night and day.

Sadly when we get into these dick-measuring contests it only shows who can BE the bigger dick!

Posted: Nov 26, 2010 9:07pm
Also this whole notion of "if you nailed my move I'd kick your ass" goes against much of my knowledge and experiences. That is the type of thinking of a guy who's never spent time around hustlers.

I think many would agree if the guy is sharp enough to nail the move why not cut into him about doing some business, if he doesn't go for it then ok I know this spot is burned and can't come back to it.

But your mileage may vary.
Message: Posted by: Tony45 (Nov 27, 2010 03:09AM)
Let me add a last reply to this and hopefully move on. As two guys here pointed out, I should expect to be called on things if I post something, that's fine, I don't mind being called or questioned on anything, glad to in fact.The thing is don't look like a 10 year old with the name calling and the Internet tough guy routine cause frankly, its boring. Especially when it comes from someone who doesn't know left from right as it is, from someone who thinks he is going to give a beating to someone whos working in a game in NY for the simple statement of "that's the best shot I ever saw", for that youre going to crack someone in a game ? LOL, junior, don't you think it would make more sense to just look back at the guy and say " What are ya talking about?" And that's it, whole thing is over with. No, you are going to beat on a guy who just because youre naive enough to think its in a church, that the church is running it ? You wouldnt have ever made the street in one piece, that's fact.
Let me clear up a few things though and keep it civil : If you go back and re-read my story, the guy nailed himself with the lock grip as if he didn't do that I probably wouldnt have even noticed the shot , but as I pointed out, if any of you bothered to read what I wrote, that I myself fooled around practicing shots on the table myself and know what that grip looks like. Its an un-natural sound when you shake dice that way also, try it yourself and tell me. If the guy just set them and made the shot I doubt I would have noticed it.
Now also let me add what else we had going on in the room or auditorium, if you will. We ran 2 crap games, about 10 BJ,s, 2 wheels and 5-6 poker tables, we had a lot of people in there, usually between 200-300 on any given night, give or take. Now there was no break room so to speak, just a small area where whoever was on break sat at a folding table so it wasnt out of the ordinary to bs with some of the players if they sat with us for a few mins, happened all the time. So I spoke to the guy while getting coffe, big deal, we didn't stand there for the whole 20 yapping, just about 5-10 mins more or less and wehat the guy did was maybe 2-3 weeks later, he made a small score and asked me for a smoke when I was on break, nothing sinister there, but when he handed me back the pack he also handed me back HIS matches which had a folded $100 bill in it and winked at me. Hey, like I said, we all got to eat, lol.
Now I'm slow also added, what was the box and two base dealers doing ? What the hell you want them to do while this was going on if they had no clue as to the shot the guy took ? How can you act on something if you don't know it just happened ?? Clear that one up for me and even I will be impressed ! Also, to tell the truth, the boxmen we had working there had enoug of a problem just putting the cash in the box, never mind watching the game,lol, and most of the time the dealers were half high from burning one in the parking lot themselves, yours truly included.
Not for nothing, but its a simple story, no big deal really. Now if I had something like "Well one night I nailed a guy ripping in T,s or I myself had gone to game and used a control **** and won a ton", then I could see the skepticism, but this is just something I was familiar with from having read on it and practiced the moves myself so often.
But believe what you want, I'm not one for telling tales, but at least question someone with a half respectful tone at first, not like some 1/2 assed wannabe, that's all.
Btw- imslow, youre a dealer in Canada ? that's not exactly something I would brag about out in the open if you know what I mean. Canada ?? ROFl.
Oh and for the record, the pass/dont pass line remark was sarcasm which you didn't catch. You do live up to your name, don't you ?
Message: Posted by: iamslow (Nov 27, 2010 05:49AM)
[quote]
On 2010-11-26 20:46, Mr. Z wrote:
I'm lost as to why some find Tony's story to be so suspect. There is nothing in there that I find hard to believe.

iamslow, read the story again, the thing with the guy throwing a shot took place AT AN ILLEGAL ROUND TABLE GAME HELD IN A CHURCH BASEMENT, so you can throw all your casino procedures, protocols, etc... out the window. They don't apply there. Was there even a boxman? Why couldn't he accept a little cash on the side for looking the other way? Are there even two base dealers?

I've dealt on those break-down tables, most are so small you either have an outside stickman and one guy working base or it's dealt the same way as a one-man tub with one dealer working inside stick and dealing base all by himself.

Also don't compare your experiences in 2010 Canada versus what was going on in NYC in the 1970s. It could be night and day.

Sadly when we get into these dick-measuring contests it only shows who can BE the bigger dick!
[/quote]
There a lot of misunderstanding here Z, I didn't think you guys would take the beating seriously, that's why I posted again it in my second post... and said not head stomp, just a mouth punch... I'm not trying to be a tough guy, but I will stand with what I said as I've seen a dealer get punched for joking to a player that he's flashing his hole cards... again, if you read my second post, I stated that I re read Tony's original post and forgot it was a church game... Also, I wasn't trying to bust casino procedures, I'm just basing it on my experience dealing underground... As far as a boxman, My boss always sat box, because its all his money... he didn't even once get up to **** all he did was snort coke on styrofoam plates all night.... again that's just my experience... Also, all the dice joints I worked had only had one table... One place actually had a real dice table and the other dice joint, we just dealt on 4 folding tables put together and both base dealers dealt face to face which allowed us up to 20 a side... there was no back wall... dice were rolled on the table... we also used a blank felt as a layout and a piece of tape as the pass line and pennies lying around for the wrong bettors..Also mr.Z, I wasn't comparing this to 2010 Canada vs 70's NYC because I dealt dice from 95 till 2003 at the joint... And if you read his post, he said he dealt from 82-88 which makes it the 80's... not that I would have known around that time, as I didn't start my first job till 91 when I was 17... As far as believing the story completely, I don't know... but I'll leave it at that.. And as far as accepting money too look the other way, its something that just doesn't happen where I worked as I feared my boss more than any person there.. even though my boss only had one leg.

[quote]
On 2010-11-27 04:09, Tony45 wrote:
Let me add a last reply to this and hopefully move on. As two guys here pointed out, I should expect to be called on things if I post something, that's fine, I don't mind being called or questioned on anything, glad to in fact.The thing is don't look like a 10 year old with the name calling and the Internet tough guy routine cause frankly, its boring. Especially when it comes from someone who doesn't know left from right as it is, from someone who thinks he is going to give a beating to someone whos working in a game in NY for the simple statement of "that's the best shot I ever saw", for that youre going to crack someone in a game ? LOL, junior, don't you think it would make more sense to just look back at the guy and say " What are ya talking about?" And that's it, whole thing is over with. No, you are going to beat on a guy who just because youre naive enough to think its in a church, that the church is running it ? You wouldnt have ever made the street in one piece, that's fact.
Let me clear up a few things though and keep it civil : If you go back and re-read my story, the guy nailed himself with the lock grip as if he didn't do that I probably wouldnt have even noticed the shot , but as I pointed out, if any of you bothered to read what I wrote, that I myself fooled around practicing shots on the table myself and know what that grip looks like. Its an un-natural sound when you shake dice that way also, try it yourself and tell me. If the guy just set them and made the shot I doubt I would have noticed it.
Now also let me add what else we had going on in the room or auditorium, if you will. We ran 2 crap games, about 10 BJ,s, 2 wheels and 5-6 poker tables, we had a lot of people in there, usually between 200-300 on any given night, give or take. Now there was no break room so to speak, just a small area where whoever was on break sat at a folding table so it wasnt out of the ordinary to bs with some of the players if they sat with us for a few mins, happened all the time. So I spoke to the guy while getting coffe, big deal, we didn't stand there for the whole 20 yapping, just about 5-10 mins more or less and wehat the guy did was maybe 2-3 weeks later, he made a small score and asked me for a smoke when I was on break, nothing sinister there, but when he handed me back the pack he also handed me back HIS matches which had a folded $100 bill in it and winked at me. Hey, like I said, we all got to eat, lol.
Now I'm slow also added, what was the box and two base dealers doing ? What the hell you want them to do while this was going on if they had no clue as to the shot the guy took ? How can you act on something if you don't know it just happened ?? Clear that one up for me and even I will be impressed ! Also, to tell the truth, the boxmen we had working there had enoug of a problem just putting the cash in the box, never mind watching the game,lol, and most of the time the dealers were half high from burning one in the parking lot themselves, yours truly included.
Not for nothing, but its a simple story, no big deal really. Now if I had something like "Well one night I nailed a guy ripping in T,s or I myself had gone to game and used a control **** and won a ton", then I could see the skepticism, but this is just something I was familiar with from having read on it and practiced the moves myself so often.
But believe what you want, I'm not one for telling tales, but at least question someone with a half respectful tone at first, not like some 1/2 assed wannabe, that's all.
Btw- imslow, youre a dealer in Canada ? that's not exactly something I would brag about out in the open if you know what I mean. Canada ?? ROFl.
Oh and for the record, the pass/dont pass line remark was sarcasm which you didn't catch. You do live up to your name, don't you ?
[/quote]

Tony, first of all, now your doing the name calling and telling me I don't know left from right?? I'm lost here... As far as I understood, you called the man out... from what I learned, when you saw something, you just stfu or you call it out and **** might hit the fan with the boss... again, I'm speaking on experience dealing to bad people with lots of money and not hustlers... these guys didn't need to hustle at dice because they already walked in with bags of cash...just wanted to make it clear.. again, Im sorry as I forgot you mentioned this was in church for low stakes... the games I dealt had a limit of 100-5000 (there were a few old guys that were allowed to be 50) and it was a little more tense... I had to shut up and deal, and I know for a fact that if I made any remark, I would get slapped or at the bare minimum get yelledat..(most of the insanity came from the nammers)... I still had to be professional even though its a joint... now about your coffee break, now you explain what the guy did in this second post which I would have believed if you explained the same way in your original post... you just stated he was bringing you presents? I assumed a box with a ribbon.. As far as the box and base dealers, my apologies for assuming that they are sharp to catch on to everything... you are right, if the box is a weak and the base is weak, then who needs to even worry... the guy could have probably layed the dice down in front of him and no one would catch on and it would still be a roll... what do I know, this was in the 80's... everything happened then.. Again, I'm sorry for being a half assed wannabe... I forgot I'm in Canada eh? our casinos here are apparently dinky compared to Vegas, and our dealers suck. Yet I would like you to name any casino in Vegas right now that's packed to the tits with players from Sunday to Sunday... also if you go to my casino, our high limit room has 16 baccarat tables full everyday with players playing 9 spots at 5k a spot(that's 45k a hand!!)... I'm sure you guys got that action at your casino since it is vegas right... and why are there always head hunters from Vegas at my casino offering our players free everything just to play in Vegas?? yet we don't even give comps at my casino...lol you gotta pay for you drinks here... and yet they keep coming back here. I don't know which casino in vegas you deal at... maybe you can enlighten us. I don't get it, being a dealer in Canada is nothing to brag about, but is being a dealer in Vegas something to brag about? Are you saying Vegas dealers are better than Canadian dealers?? even though the rules and training are pretty much identical?? I dare you to prove it.. So I don't get what the rofl was all about... I don't even remember seeing any good and FAST dice dealers in Vegas nowadays. As for the pass and don't pass remark, how did I not catch it?? I know it was sarcasm, but I still answered your question just to be complete... B.T.W. I'm in the process of shopping for a house in Vegas as a rental since Vegas is making sooo much money that everyone can afford to sell their houses for half price. Maybe I'll come visit you and say hello. I'm out.
J
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 27, 2010 07:45AM)
Any man who can take off his leg and hit you with it is a man to be feared.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Nov 27, 2010 08:12AM)
[quote]
On 2010-11-27 08:04, iamslow wrote:
I don't even remeber seing any good and FAST dice dealers in vegas nowadays..
[/quote]

Dice ain't what it used to be, hasn't been since the 70s. Very few take any pride in it anymore and I can't imagine how well they are teaching it to the break-ins now. The quality of the dealing schools has really declined too.

Plus most of your Strip dealers in the high-end joints have been there so long they get real comfy and complacent.

Go watch the old farts at Caesars lump around the table. It ain't pretty but they're still pulling down close to six figures annually.

It is always interesting to hear about other dealers from other jurisdictions outside Vegas. In the old days the AC dealers always used to brag about how much action they dealt to, yadda yadda. Same thing when Connectiut opened up. I work with a kid who started in Indiana and he's always saying how well they were trained and how crazy the games got.

But, at the end of the day, put me on a crew with some old-timers who worked table for table back in the old days. Some of these guys could draw blood from a stone.

All that said though I know the greatest craps guy around who will make anyone realize they know nothing about the game. Pretty humbling to be in his presence and get a sense of how his mind works.
Message: Posted by: iamslow (Nov 27, 2010 08:21AM)
Tony45, love the name by the way! I also love the story. I also forgot to ask, if you were running 5-6 days a week (I'm assuming Sundays were off because of mass) then how did they mask the noise of having 200-300 people gambling? I was also very curious about the tables? were all the tables mini/foldable/collapsable like the dice table you mentioned in another post?? how much room did those tables(2 crap games, about 10 BJ,s, 2 wheels and 5-6 poker tables) take up?? Also, did you have to do set up and tear down every day or was the tables just left in the room and locked up??I can just imagine how crappy it would be having to set up and tear down everyday... then stacking chairs...that would suck... now I understand why you went on break with that guy, with that many tables and that many people, there's was probably no room for even the players to take a break, so they had to go on break with you,or go outside am I correct? Also what I really really wanted to know and was hoping you could answer was did you ever have a game while there was service going on upstairs/next door? If you did, how did you guys deal with parking? did anyone get any parking tickets?? did anyone get towed? Wait, did they tow cars back during that time? Also, how was the wacky tabacky back then? Anyway, I just finished work and I'm falling asleep. Till next time.

your pal,
iamslow

[quote]
On 2010-11-27 08:45, Dannydoyle wrote:
Any man who can take off his leg and hit you with it is a man to be feared.
[/quote]
lol, but he never wore a fake one, but he did have a cane.
Message: Posted by: Tony45 (Nov 28, 2010 03:24AM)
Slow, the Canada remark was to irritate you a little which, it apparently succeeded in doing judging from your reply, no harm meant,just firing back a little. But as Mr Z said, the difference between the crap dealers here and there is the older ones here who were crew for crew or shift for shift pit for pit, at least could make money off the players instead of standing around going "I can pay the line in 3 moves" or whatever, understand ?
Also as far as your casino not giving comps and being jammed all the time, youre the only place running in your area, correct ? Its the same situation that Resorts was in when it first opened or Foxwoods, why give anything away when your the only game in town ? Im assuming theres no other place close to you but I'm not familiar with where you are, but that's my thought on it.
Okay, now that we are at least on a semi- civil basis, I will answer what you asked.
How did we mask the noise ? When youre in a gym or the banquet room as were and away from the street, its not too tough to conceal anything but as you did point out, parking was always the main problem. We had 3 Synagagogues and 1 Church, they all had ample parking lots but not enough to hold say 250 cars, if I had to guess, I couldn't give you a definitive answer as I'm not sure what they held, but my boss did have 4 valet guys working and they would take care of peoples cars and park them a few blocks away, one place they used was a municipal parking lot and there was the college across the parkway which they made use of, which was convenient but they found places. These guys did well also and I remember the boss was always !@#$%ing about having to pay the extra expense of having them. Guy had two bags of groceries under each arm and was complaining all the time he was hungry, lol. We started at 8 at night, services in Synagogue ended early as I remember and Sunday was always in Synagogue. We got there at 7 and set up, I got paid like $20 extra at the time for being there for early set up, the tables all had the folding legs under them and they were sit down and deal, the 21,s and poker, naturally.Youre right it was a pain and everyone had to kick in at the end stacking chairs and folding tables. This guy had to have over $50,000 in just equiptment alone and he was always crying the blues but his partner who I was friends with always used to smile and say "Pay no attention to Scrooge there, if I had his money I would burn mine". lol
I don't recall anyone getting towed although people did get ticketed for bus stops constantly. Funny thing now that you reminded me, we're dealing one night and this kid goes on break and goes outside and says I'll be back in bit, which translated to the rest of us that he was going outside and down the block to burn one. So 20 mins comes and goes and he don't show,in fact he don't show up for the rest of the shift. Turns out he comes in whenever he was scheduled next and says he got pinched,lol. It was winter time and he goes down the block and right on the corner he lights up and as he put it "This cop comes from out of no where and grabs me before I can do anything and takes me in and is asking me all kinds of questions,blah, blah," He had to pay a fine or something, lol. The boss got ****ed at him for being stupid and whatnot but paid him for the night anyway. This is the kinds of intellect we had working then for us. We had a few ex -Vegas guys, guys who just wanted to make a few extra bucks and people who knew someone and wanted to learn to deal.
I worked as I said for about 5-6 years with this guy ands also worked the after hours clubs which is where I made good money. As far as the scams went, the guy with the shot and another incident with something else is all that I remember happening, aside from the usual shot takers and bs artists. I did have a lot of fun though, that I cant deny, some of the stuff that went on was just hilarious, guys nodding off on the base, arguments with players, etc.. I should have wrote it all down, would have made a great comedy.
Message: Posted by: mrcraps (Aug 27, 2014 05:04PM)
I was doing some research about the subject of dice control and have an interest in learning but not sure if it is even possible to control the outcome of the dice. I then came across the golden touch craps website and after searching some more I found this forum post! so as you can imagine I had to register in order to get in on the topic :)

I found also another link on google that was an interesting read. http://www.crapspit.org/golden-touch-craps-review/ I used to think craps dice control to win at the casinos MAY be possible but then I read the article and well I was not so sure anymore. What they talk about actually make sense so I decided to hold of on spending money on GTC for the time being.

Perhaps some casinos have some old craps table that don't affect the dice throw like perhaps newer craps tables as mentioned in the article above? I mean that is not something a good dicethrower can beat.... or?
Message: Posted by: mrcraps (Aug 27, 2014 05:05PM)
Wooops just realized this post I replied to is really old :o
Message: Posted by: magic4545 (Sep 4, 2014 05:00PM)
Misconceptions by the uninformed:

1. The widely held belief that the dice MUST hit the back wall. Physics say otherwise. Rules say that the dice must hit the back wall, but rules are broken.

2. The widely held belief that the casino personnel with chide and torment if one of your dice doesn't hit the back wall. I was able to roll, and hit the wall with both dice, approximately 85 percent of the time. The other times one or both of the dice fell short of the wall. I was asked to have both dice hit the back wall ONCE in a couple of days of full action at this rate.

Once. And it was by the stickman, not by the boxmen that were present and watching.

3. The widely held belief that you'll be taken to a room and held or given a 'good talking to'. I've played a LOT of craps, lived in Vegas, and I've NEVER experienced anything like that.

In my extensive experience, the casino personnel have NEVER reversed a roll because one or both dice did not reach the back wall. They have NEVER asked me to leave the casino because I wasn't hitting the back wall every roll. I HAVE been asked to leave because I was winning. Back in the late 90's, I was banned from the California, Las Vegas Club and Mandalay Bay. But, I've returned and gambled in all of these since.

Last weekend, I had a LOT of action at empty tables where I was able to roll alone, without having to wait for dice to pass back around. I got a lot of action, and I made about $500 while having a blast getting that action.

I've rolled dice a LOT in my life, and I've made some money. I used to lose when I bet on others rolling. When I roll, I win. I'm patient now, and I wait for my spots, where there are empty tables for me to get into my groove, and not a lot of tourists to disturb me. And I only play low minimum tables.

You don't have to alter your rolls very much to overcome the tiny casino advantage when betting on the pass and come bets with odds.

If you can roll in a manner that only works 10 percent of the time to eliminate a couple of the 7's, then you're still changing the percentages enough to have an advantage over the casino.

My rolling works much more often than that. Not perfect, not every time, but effective enough to give me 10, 15 minute, and longer rolls. I play a simple strategy of one pass line bet and two come bets, all with double the $5 minimum odds. I top out at $45 on the table at any given time, and I only play a $5 minimum table.

I would love to show everyone my work, but it's very difficult and time consuming to wait for the right situation and most people don't want to watch for that long.

I have a few magician friends in Vegas who have witnessed this, but I don't think that they watched for long enough to say that there was a big difference. They just saw me make money. Not a whole lot, about $50 in a few minutes, but they got a taste.
Message: Posted by: silverking (Sep 4, 2014 11:52PM)
That a pair of dice can be controlled somewhat when they don't hit the rubber is hardly newsworthy.

I find when magicians take the time to tell us all how fabulous they are in a casino, and detail how many casinos they've been "banned" from, what they're actually doing is trying to [i]advertise their magic act[/i]!
The magician being banned from the casino for their amazing skills is as old and boring a tale as a typical magic hack can tell.

Regardless, can you clarify that the story you're telling is that you occasionally don't hit the rubber, and at those times you execute a controlled shot such that you alter the odds ever so slightly further in your favor?
Or are you saying you can play for hours, never hit the rubber, and the Box doesn't say "boo" to you about it.
Or are you saying you can control any shot, whether it hits the rubber or not, and can do so consistently such that you maintain a constant advantage?

I ask the above questions because your post reads as 90% braggadocio, with no details to indicate what it is [i]you're actually trying to say[/i].

Also, perhaps could you clarify for us whether you're talking about a controlled shot, dice setting, or a combination of both.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Sep 5, 2014 12:20AM)
Come on Silver, fifty bucks! Top-notch pro.