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Topic: Secrets Revealed
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (Sep 2, 2010 11:32PM)
Why me? On my side of town there are magicians revealing our secrets. I can not understand why they are giving away free secrets, especially when the economy is so bad.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Sep 2, 2010 11:52PM)
Good question! Is there any profit in it? Perhaps they get paid per click or something? Perhaps we just paid them kinda by clicking on it?
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Sep 3, 2010 05:57AM)
The name says it all - "MYdini". A self-absorbed ass makin' "feel good"...
Message: Posted by: funsway (Sep 3, 2010 09:52AM)
At least the video quality is pretty good ;-)

wonder what he does in real life?
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Sep 3, 2010 11:12AM)
Prob'ly works for the feds with top security clearance...
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Sep 3, 2010 11:14AM)
[quote]
On 2010-09-03 00:32, Dynamike wrote:
Why me? On my side of town there are magicians revealing our secrets: http://www.mydini.com/category/card-magic/ I can not understand why they are giving away free secrets, especially when the economy is so bad.
[/quote]

Hey, Mike you were advised to move years ago... :)
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (Sep 3, 2010 08:16PM)
The only place I would feel comfortable moving to is out of this world.
Message: Posted by: Al Angello (Sep 3, 2010 08:21PM)
What a jerk.
Message: Posted by: danellis (Sep 7, 2010 02:49PM)
Maybe charging $5 for teaching someone how to do a trick is not such a criminal thing... Don't books teach tricks or that guy at the counter at the magic store?

Mydini.com was setup to help people get paid to TEACH someone how to do a trick not simply expose tricks...
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (Sep 8, 2010 06:28PM)
[quote]
On 2010-09-07 15:49, danellis wrote:
Mydini.com was setup to help people get paid to TEACH someone how to do a trick not simply expose tricks...
[/quote]
On the following page I see no fees, http://www.mydini.com/category/card-magic/ Each trick is being exposed for no charge. Danellis, why do you guys believe in doing this? Don't you know you are breaking the "magician's rules"?
Message: Posted by: Al Angello (Sep 8, 2010 07:13PM)
Why would someone go to all that trouble just to be hated?
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (Sep 8, 2010 07:49PM)
That's a good question, Al.
Message: Posted by: Cyberqat (Sep 9, 2010 12:59PM)
Al,

Obviously you have never played an MMORPG.

Google the word "greifer."

Some people are so desperate for attention even negative attention will suffice.
Message: Posted by: Absinthe (Sep 9, 2010 01:20PM)
[quote]
On 2010-09-08 20:13, Al Angello wrote:
Why would someone go to all that trouble just to be hated?
[/quote]

$
Message: Posted by: slyhand (Sep 9, 2010 02:21PM)
On top of revealing them for free, they are done very poorly. Ugghh!
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (Sep 10, 2010 12:31PM)
I would not mind if the tricks were simple self-working kid tricks used for hobbyist. But some of them are sleight-of-hand moves we put a lot of time into. It seems like they want to destroy magic.
Message: Posted by: Laurent van Trigt (Sep 10, 2010 01:02PM)
What mystifies me is that one would think with all the exposure going on that magicians would become more secretive. You would think they would sit on the stuff that is still 'underground' to ensure that won't be exposed too... My observation is that this is not at all what is happening. On the contrary. It seems that anyone with a new idea has to release a dvd the next day. Books and videos on magic which used to be only accessible to members of a magician's club, are now available to anyone with an internet connection. This is not how it used to be. When I joined a magic society back in the 90s it took a long while before I got to learn some fundamental card moves. One had to 'earn' it. We had to learn the basic stuff first and then be lucky someone would introduce us to the next step. I remember an occasion where I was asked to leave the room because a magician was about to explain a trick with elastic bands and I had not been member for long enough. This was normal back then. Nowadays, I have seen magicians get upset because someone would refuse to tell them the secret to a particular routine. (The elastic band trick I was not told back then can now be found online in less than a minute...)
My mentor once told me: "It makes me feel like a magician to have secrets". How secretive are you? Do you have stuff you keep for yourself? Food for thought...
Message: Posted by: Ronin (Sep 10, 2010 02:23PM)
I'm not really very happy about this, either.

But I think we're looking at it the wrong way, in the sense of thinking, "This guy is a jerk, out to expose magic and make things bad for magicians." I think he may really see himself as providing a service to would-be magicians. Which may be even scarier.

When I talk to my younger friends (I'm 45, so I count that as anyone under the age of 30) who are much more immersed than I am in the wired, virtual eWorld out there, I find that they see YouTube as search engine as much as a video viewing platform.

Want to learn how to mix a martini? YouTube! Need to learn how to build a retaining wall? YouTube! Interested in working with papier mache, fixing your muffler or tracking animals in the wild? YouTube!

So, of course, this extends to "learning magic tricks".

To this generation, this type of online video learning isn't any different than the books on magic at the public library we used to check out as kids.

In a recent column, Jon Racherbaumer described the experience of performing "Out of this World" for layperson. Racherbaumer had slipped and revealed the name of the effect, so the layperson whipped out his iPhone and googled "Out of this World card trick" and got a method pretty quickly.

I just don't see any way we're going to be able to stop this kind of thing, and I think we're better off seeing the motivations behind this beyond dismissing the exposers ("he's a jerk"). We can berate the younger generation for this attitude, but it won't change anything.

We're basically left where we've always been: creating our magic as appealing, original presentations of mystery performed by an engaging character, adding up to an entertainment experience that cannot be reduced to a blueprint, schematic, or pair of disembodied hands "teaching" to a webcam.
Message: Posted by: Cyberqat (Sep 10, 2010 03:53PM)
I agree that any magician worth his or her salt ah always made the illusions "their own."

I ALSO agree that this modern world of permanent archiving and instant retrieval is a bit scary.

But then again, the future always has been. :)
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (Sep 15, 2010 11:55PM)
[quote]
On 2010-09-10 15:23, Ronin wrote:
I think he may really see himself as providing a service to would-be magicians. Which may be even scarier.[/quote]
That is what he told me I gave him a call.

[quote]To this generation, this type of online video learning isn't any different than the books on magic at the public library we used to check out as kids.[/quote]
He told me the same thing over the phone. But I still see a difference. If a person wanted to go to the library to learn magic tricks, they would have to use more energy. That type of way they are earning how to perform magic. But over the internet, anybody worthless wanting to be a magician will search for "Secrets of magic".

[quote]I just don't see any way we're going to be able to stop this kind of thing, and I think we're better off seeing the motivations behind this beyond dismissing the exposers ("he's a jerk"). We can berate the younger generation for this attitude, but it won't change anything.
[/quote]
I explained different tips to him over the phone. He thanked me for giving him different suggestions. They are listed below:

1. Make every explanation a paid video.
2. Just give out free explanations to a person if he/she bought so many of them.
3. Make it a forum too. After someone reach so many post, then make the explanations free to that person.
4. Just show easy cheap ones for free.
Message: Posted by: Laurent van Trigt (Sep 16, 2010 03:18AM)
[quote]
On 2010-09-10 15:23, Ronin wrote:
I'm not really very happy about this, either.

In a recent column, Jon Racherbaumer described the experience of performing "Out of this World" for layperson. Racherbaumer had slipped and revealed the name of the effect, so the layperson whipped out his iPhone and googled "Out of this World card trick" and got a method pretty quickly.

I just don't see any way we're going to be able to stop this kind of thing, and I think we're better off seeing the motivations behind this beyond dismissing the exposers ("he's a jerk"). We can berate the younger generation for this attitude, but it won't change anything.

[/quote]

Well, in your example with Jon Racherbaumer, it seems the solution was simple: don't tell them the names of the effects! I have friends who actually name them differently to point them in the wrong direction just in case. And like I said, perform stuff that is still underground and be secretive about it.
Andrew Musgrave has a lot to say about how to deal with exposure on his wonderful blog: http://erlandish.blogspot.com/2006/12/erlandish-master-index.html
(see the chapters "thoughts on exposure")
Message: Posted by: Pakar Ilusi (Sep 16, 2010 02:47PM)
With all due respect...

There are really no "secrets" in Magic, just illusionary techniques being sold.

Anyone can buy that trick/effect or any other trick/effect.

If Magic was really really secretive, no one would sell any techniques. At least not openly.

No Magic Shops. No Internet Dealers. No Conventions. No Classes.

Magicians would exist in some sort of secret cabal. We'd meet like the supposed Illuminati, in shadows, spoken of only in guarded conversations.

No such thing and you know it...

If he sells the secret then it's okay? Why? The secret is still out?

So let's just get on to performing well...

Imho...
Message: Posted by: Laurent van Trigt (Sep 16, 2010 05:00PM)
[quote]
On 2010-09-16 15:47, Pakar Ilusi wrote:
With all due respect...

There are really no "secrets" in Magic, just illusionary techniques being sold.
[/quote]

I may know a secret. Hmmmm, more than one actually...
Message: Posted by: Pakar Ilusi (Sep 17, 2010 02:04AM)
[quote]
On 2010-09-16 18:00, Laurent van Trigt wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-09-16 15:47, Pakar Ilusi wrote:
With all due respect...

There are really no "secrets" in Magic, just illusionary techniques being sold.
[/quote]

I may know a secret. Hmmmm, more than one actually...
[/quote]

Then guard it like it was gold... Imo... :P
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Sep 17, 2010 07:36AM)
Pakar-

As it seems you are cutting and pasting your "apostrophe" in every relevant thread, I feel I must do likewise with my response...

Pakar-

Continuing on the path of all "due respect" ...

BULLPUCKY!

However, on the off chance that you may be correct, could you please explain how Teller does The Rose?

Thanks!

Jim
Message: Posted by: Pakar Ilusi (Sep 17, 2010 08:39AM)
[quote]
On 2010-09-17 08:36, mandarin wrote:
Pakar-

As it seems you are cutting and pasting your "apostrophe" in every relevant thread, I feel I must do likewise with my response...

Pakar-

Continuing on the path of all "due respect" ...

BULLPUCKY!

However, on the off chance that you may be correct, could you please explain how Teller does The Rose?

Thanks!

Jim
[/quote]

Easier than writing it over, mandarin...

Bullpucky! :lol: Never heard that one!

I am right btw... ;)

The Rose? For that, you have to ask Teller... Just because there are no "secrets", doesn't mean what technique there is out there is free...

Which is my point, 99% of this "secret" stuff can be bought. That's no "secret", that's a commodity.

ANYWAYS, it boils down to your point of view really...

With all due respect, of course...

:online:
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Sep 17, 2010 01:00PM)
Yeah, I wish I could tell you what bullpucky actually meant, Pakar, but I just used it 'cause I liked the way it sounded. Was about to go for "hogwash"...

Pakar- you're logic confuses me- if there are "no secrets" in magic what am I buying when I buy information as to how The Rose is done? How is "the unknown method for accomplishing that which almost no one knows how to do" much different from"secret"? How does parsing words help? And, what about the 1% (your estimate) that is NOT for sale? Would that not qualify as a "secret"? Does that fit in with "no secrets in magic"?

Btw, no comment on "apostrophe"? That was my best line!

Jim
Message: Posted by: Pakar Ilusi (Sep 18, 2010 12:12AM)
Hehe... What would you like me to say about the "apostrophe"? :worry:

Really, is it a "secret" or just a "technique"? Think about it...

The way you can get to the techniques in Magic is much like most any other techniques in most other fields of study. The availability of it I mean. Just pay, you get it. Try that with real secrets. Trying paying the Government for their Military Secrets over the counter and see how far you get...

I say it is up to your point of view because you can call anything "yet to be known" a "secret", it just sounds strange when in commerce, which is what it really is here...

I'll give you an example. If you went to learn say... First Aid. It would be very strange if the Instructor kept on calling the techniques being taught a "secret" as opposed to just a "technique"... "Here's the "secret" CPR technique..." :P They COULD call it a "secret", but it would just sound strange...

Just to add, I use First Aid as an analogy because by right you should not then teach anyone else unless you're qualified to teach First Aid, regardless of how well you learned it. People still do however, much like in Magic. I know it's not the same thing exactly, but I hope you get my point...

But I digress...

How is "the unknown method for accomplishing that which almost no one knows how to do" much different from "secret"? The difference is again, a real secret is not available to everyone or anyone who can pay. It would not be a "secret" then...

If you don't agree, I say again, it's a point of view thing.

The 1%? That's just me being PC and covering my bases... :rotf:

Seriously though, there are "secrets" in Magic (yes, I said that...) BUT it is NOT in the techniques to accomplish Magic imho...

What is it?



Shhh... It's a secret. ;)