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Topic: When someone doesn't play by our rules...
Message: Posted by: Pakar Ilusi (Sep 15, 2010 07:38PM)
I see a lot of Magicians clearly and openly break our "ethics" rules regarding copying the acts of other Magicians... Amongst other "ethics" violations...

Nothing really happens to them.

Can "we" really do anything?

Other than complain and not like them, that is...
Message: Posted by: Payne (Sep 15, 2010 10:22PM)
And you would suggest what type of reprimand or punishment enacted by who?

Your ethics might not be my ethics and what are these "rules" you speak of?

I've never been given a rule book nor taken an oath to abide by some arbitrary ethical standard.
Message: Posted by: Pakar Ilusi (Sep 16, 2010 01:52PM)
[quote]
On 2010-09-15 23:22, Payne wrote:
And you would suggest what type of reprimand or punishment enacted by who?

Your ethics might not be my ethics and what are these "rules" you speak of?

I've never been given a rule book nor taken an oath to abide by some arbitrary ethical standard.
[/quote]

This is exactly my point. I actually agree with you Payne.

Ethics in Magic is purely academic.

Nothing can and has been done other than excluding those we don't prefer from our midst (banning from IBM etc..).

Look at the Masked Magician, for all the ranting we do... Nothing happens to him.

If nothing can or will be done, discussing it is really for naught... Imho.
Message: Posted by: Payne (Sep 16, 2010 03:30PM)
I don't see how banning folk from clubs and orgainisations they more than likely don't have memberships in is going to solve anything.

I myself do not belong to any national or international orgainisations. So if I decided to go on a exposure rampage there would be very little anyone could do about it.

Apart from banning me from the Café. Big threat there :)
Message: Posted by: Pakar Ilusi (Sep 16, 2010 03:34PM)
Ditto.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Sep 16, 2010 09:10PM)
Well, turning a blind eye certainly has worked throughout history, so let's try ignoring it and it will go away... Sort of like a chest pain...
Message: Posted by: Pakar Ilusi (Sep 17, 2010 02:00AM)
[quote]
On 2010-09-16 22:10, mandarin wrote:
Well, turning a blind eye certainly has worked throughout history, so let's try ignoring it and it will go away... Sort of like a chest pain...
[/quote]

I have to disagree. We have never turned a blind eye. It is surely happening as night and day. I fully realize that.

It's just that nothing can be done about it. Or is being done about it.

People who blatantly expose, distribute or copy (with malice even) just get to go on their merry way...

If nothing can be done, then what's the point of discussing it?

Other than it becomes Group Therapy for us all... :P
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Sep 17, 2010 07:24AM)
OK, I give. So, what would you like to talk about?
Message: Posted by: Pakar Ilusi (Sep 17, 2010 08:48AM)
[quote]
On 2010-09-17 08:24, mandarin wrote:
OK, I give. So, what would you like to talk about?
[/quote]

How about positive reinforcement?
Message: Posted by: Steve_Mollett (Oct 3, 2010 08:40AM)
Hey! You can't perform the vanishing birdcage--that belongs to Bautier DeKolta!!!
Message: Posted by: David Alexander (Oct 5, 2010 03:33PM)
People forget that the beloved Professor Hoffmann was once viewed as the arch exposure of his day. There was some controversy about a guy named "Tarbel" who wanted to market a home-study course in magic.

Some of the biggest "exposures" are by poor performers who go on stage un-practiced and un-rehearsed and denigrate the hobby they claim to love by doing a bad performance. Magic would be better off if these people were given honest feedback instead of the usual blather.
Message: Posted by: Pakar Ilusi (Oct 6, 2010 12:00AM)
The problem with feedback is this...

Who has the right to do so? And will said person's advice be listened to?

For almost any Art, even badly executed/performed ones, you can always find supporters.

Take Criss Angel for example, some LOVE him, some HATE him...

He can always choose to listen only to the ones who support him.

I will agree with you in that performing completely bad technique thus clearly exposing the gaff is wrong BUT, here is this threads question, what do we do if they then don't want to listen when we tell them it is wrong?

What can be done when they don't play by our rules?
Message: Posted by: edh (Oct 6, 2010 09:51PM)
Nothing! :)
Message: Posted by: preston eakins (Oct 7, 2010 11:44AM)
Honestly I know haw frustrating it is to give some one advice on a move and have them roll their eyes at you . or to invite them to a lecture and they never show up and yet they think they are the best. imho no matter how good you are you can get better you should always learn from others. so when you feel very frustrated over people who are so bad they expose instead of entertain. try to remember you can always learn from anyone even if your learning how not to do something. I keep trying to tell myself those things but I still get very frustrated. as far as exposure on any magic secret I have come to the conclusion that most lay audiences even those that have watched the masked dude they forget very quickly since they really have no true interest in magic now and then you get a engineer type that really want to know how to do those things are done purely from an engineers point of view. they are not likely the ones that are going to out you during a show furthermore I suggest you watch as many of those shows as possible so you can see what is being revealed so you don't to the exact same illusion the same way remember for any effect there is more then one way to pull it off so if your just a tad different the lay public will still be amazed again just my humble opinion
Message: Posted by: Pakar Ilusi (Oct 10, 2010 03:24AM)
Thanks preston eakins...

You might want to paragraph your thoughts my friend... Makes it easier to read for the rest of us to read it. ;)

:online:
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Oct 11, 2010 01:10AM)
Actually, from my personal opinion, some of the biggest exposures are from some of the more known and famous magicians. The little guys are considered the scum because no one knows of them so it's safe to go after them. The big guys however, are supposed to be untouchable. Lord forbid if you exposed the decieftfulness of one of our top names. That will get you banned from social groups.
Message: Posted by: Pakar Ilusi (Oct 11, 2010 03:54AM)
[quote]
On 2010-10-11 02:10, Gospel Dan wrote:
Actually, from my personal opinion, some of the biggest exposures are from some of the more known and famous magicians. The little guys are considered the scum because no one knows of them so it's safe to go after them. The big guys however, are supposed to be untouchable. Lord forbid if you exposed the decieftfulness of one of our top names. That will get you banned from social groups.
[/quote]

There is some truth there... ;)
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Oct 11, 2010 04:01PM)
Well, Val Valentino, and Bruce Nash are the culprits who started this mess. Want to see the damage done? Someone tell me no one watches:

http://www.themaskedmagician.com/biography.htm

'Nuff said...

Doug
Message: Posted by: edh (Oct 11, 2010 06:52PM)
[quote]
On 2010-10-11 04:54, Pakar Ilusi wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-10-11 02:10, Gospel Dan wrote:
Actually, from my personal opinion, some of the biggest exposures are from some of the more known and famous magicians. The little guys are considered the scum because no one knows of them so it's safe to go after them. The big guys however, are supposed to be untouchable. Lord forbid if you exposed the decieftfulness of one of our top names. That will get you banned from social groups.
[/quote]

There is some truth there... ;)
[/quote]

There's a WHOLE lot of truth there... ;)
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Oct 21, 2010 06:23AM)
Personally I think the Masked Magician was one of the best things to happen to magic in the past two decades, and we all owe him a debt for the public awareness he brought to our art.

And I have no ethical issues with exposure.
Message: Posted by: Andrew Zuber (Nov 25, 2010 04:30PM)
[quote]
On 2010-10-21 07:23, TonyB2009 wrote:
Personally I think the Masked Magician was one of the best things to happen to magic in the past two decades, and we all owe him a debt for the public awareness he brought to our art.

And I have no ethical issues with exposure.
[/quote]
Is this a joke post, or...?
Message: Posted by: Pakar Ilusi (Dec 1, 2010 05:20AM)
I think he was being serious.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 1, 2010 08:08AM)
[quote]
On 2010-10-11 17:01, Dougini wrote:
Well, Val Valentino, and Bruce Nash are the culprits who started this mess. Want to see the damage done? Someone tell me no one watches:

http://www.themaskedmagician.com/biography.htm

'Nuff said...

Doug
[/quote]

Really? All magic and the so called "secrets" were kept under lock and key and guarded by a troll till this came along? Seriously? You are going to tell me that ciggarete companies didn't post solutions to the Vanishing Bird Cage on the back of packs?

What are the secrets of magic anyhow guys? I mean the secrets that entertain people? Is it about the aparatus? If so then the Masked dude would still have a show wouldn't he? Come on guys if exposure hurts you that much on a professional level, I suggest more practice.
Message: Posted by: Andrew Zuber (Dec 1, 2010 08:20AM)
A "magician" with no ethical issues with exposure. Interesting.
Yeah, I certainly enjoyed the Masked Magician doing that card trick on TV, which he completely blew. That brought all kinds of good praise to what we do....
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 1, 2010 08:33AM)
Wow is that what you got from what I said?

First of all, hate to break it to you but "ethics" are arbitrary and subjective. For example do you cry so loudly about Vernon exposing a fake take away in his cups and balls? I should imagine like 99% of magicians you let it pass. Well it should not pass for it is an EXPOSURE of a method! He should be the subject of all the hatred and venom. He did it on national television. Yet somehow he is the professor! Go figure.

Why is one person not held to the same standard as the next? Oh wait that is what makes it arbitrary. Got it. Oh it is also what makes it SUBJECTIVE. Got it.

Now here is the dealio. When you walk into a magic shop, what is the requirement to purchase a trick? I mean a full blown sub trunk! What test am I given, what oath must I take, what do they do to make certain I am a magician in the first place? How about off the internet? What check and balance is in place so the secret is kept safe? What precaitions do magicians take to guard those oh so precious secrets in the first place? Then get back to me about if I have an ethical problem with anything.

(By the way the answer is if you have the cash or the credit card clears.)

As for your sarcastic barb about a "magician", ummm you list lots of professions on your web page and magician isn't even one of them!
Message: Posted by: Pakar Ilusi (Dec 1, 2010 11:14PM)
When someone doesn't play by our rules...

I conclude we can do nothing about it.

Sad really.

:(
Message: Posted by: Andrew Zuber (Dec 2, 2010 07:04AM)
[quote]
On 2010-10-21 07:23, TonyB2009 wrote:
Personally I think the Masked Magician was one of the best things to happen to magic in the past two decades, and we all owe him a debt for the public awareness he brought to our art.

And I have no ethical issues with exposure.
[/quote]
Sorry Danny, seems there was some miscommunication - I had no issues with what you wrote. I was referring to the post I quoted above...not yours. I should have quoted it when I made the first comment to avoid confusion. My bad.

Thanks for the jab at my site though :) The reason I haven't yet listed "magician" is because I don't feel accomplished enough as one. I spent too much time in L.A. talking to people who were "actors" (read: go to lots of acting classes but never work) and "screenwriters" (read: wrote a screenplay that no one read) so I take the whole title thing more seriously than just throwing it on there simply because it's a hobby. Once I'm consistently booking gigs that are exclusively magic (not just stand up comedy with magic included,) I'll list that on my site as well. :)
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 2, 2010 09:41AM)
Paul, all you can do is make your show better. What else can you ask for? Do you want someone imposing rules on you? I doubt it.

Andrew, sorry thought you were taking a shot at me. I wish more would take the time to learn the craft before making the claim to be a magician. That ALONE would solve most of the problems that the OP has with this topic!
Message: Posted by: Pakar Ilusi (Dec 3, 2010 11:54PM)
Yes it would Danny imho... ;)