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Topic: Unimaginable Exposure
Message: Posted by: Gianni (Sep 19, 2010 04:58PM)
I usually try to settle down after seeing exposure, but it is simply relentless.

I started my computer up and, as usual, the home page came up. It is set to MSN. Also as usual, there are several news stories, sports, etc. that pop up. To my disbelief, up came a series of videos about how to do some magic tricks. There was a complete exposure of a mental card trick with multiple outs, a retention coin vanish, etc., but the biggest shock was a complete reveal of the Chicago Opener/Red Hot Mama, with reveals of the double lift and the Hindu shuffle force. This simply made my jaw drop.

Gianni
Message: Posted by: mavericklancer (Sep 19, 2010 05:21PM)
There's a guy named Greg Solomon on youtube who decided to reveal the method a while ago. He also revealed scotch and soda and a few others as I remember.

I saw a close up restaurant act a while ago, and the magician did the Chicago Opener to the table next to us. The couple was less than amazed, and then asked to see something they couldn't learn on youtube. The only thing stopping me from decking that guy was that fact that I was on a date night with the girlfriend.

I feel your pain.
Message: Posted by: edh (Sep 19, 2010 05:23PM)
I saw the same thing as my homepage is MSN. A shame. :(
Message: Posted by: Oliver Ross (Sep 19, 2010 05:52PM)
Did somebody try to contact this guy and ask him WHY he's doing that ?

I don't use MSN, but anyway I think that this isn't doing good for our magic to bring out exposure videos on the internet. The problem is that today those videos spread faster and wider than before.

THose days when youtube only existed, only curious people would search to find explanation of diffrent tricks.

Today everyone who likes a video on the internet can put it on his wall of facebook, twitter etc...for all his friends to share, so a lot more people got the possibility to see those videos.

The only reason of doing such things is that he's frustrated, but about what ? That magic isn't his full day job ? That he isn't making money with it ? That somebody else was better than he was in a competition ?

Oliver.
Message: Posted by: mavericklancer (Sep 19, 2010 06:56PM)
I watched Greg Solomon's youtube videos again, and it seems that he's doing it because he's annoyed that people are actually selling magic for money. Apparently, he's of the belief that these things should come free.
Message: Posted by: mstgracy (Sep 19, 2010 07:09PM)
Youtube exposure is rediculous I can't stand seeing people ruining magic for everyone.
Message: Posted by: Pakar Ilusi (Sep 19, 2010 07:25PM)
The real question is...

Where do we go from here?

What do we do to cope with this?
Message: Posted by: Double J (Sep 19, 2010 07:29PM)
Who Cares!!!
Message: Posted by: Pakar Ilusi (Sep 19, 2010 07:51PM)
[quote]
On 2010-09-19 20:29, Double J wrote:
Who Cares!!!
[/quote]

Well, that's one way to see it... :P
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Sep 19, 2010 07:54PM)
Everyone who is not an ass...
Message: Posted by: Double J (Sep 19, 2010 07:57PM)
[quote]
On 2010-09-19 20:54, mandarin wrote:
Everyone who is not an ass...
[/quote]

That's not fair. You sir, don't know me.

But really, it's no big deal.
Message: Posted by: mstgracy (Sep 19, 2010 07:57PM)
That is a very logical approach the theraputic then what what do we do about it. COuld it be considered copyright breech to reveal on you tube if so we can flag and make sure moderators of youtube know.
Message: Posted by: Double J (Sep 19, 2010 08:00PM)
[quote]
On 2010-09-19 20:57, mstgracy wrote:
That is a very logical approach the theraputic then what what do we do about it. COuld it be considered copyright breech to reveal on you tube if so we can flag and make sure moderators of youtube know.
[/quote]

I really doubt they care, even a little bit.
Message: Posted by: Pakar Ilusi (Sep 19, 2010 08:00PM)
Nope. Not a Copyright breach. Sorry.
Message: Posted by: stempleton (Sep 19, 2010 08:07PM)
[quote]
On 2010-09-19 20:51, Pakar Ilusi wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-09-19 20:29, Double J wrote:
Who Cares!!!
[/quote]

Well, that's one way to see it... :P
[/quote]

Don't let the innocence of that comment go by. I agree to some degree. Who cares? Think about it. Do you really believe any of our spectators believe we can do magic? They KNOW its a trick. Don't get me wrong; I HATE exposure. But even magicians love watching a master perform-- not just because we're "into" magic, but because we appreciate the entertainment. I think we puff up so much that we forget that the average layman loves entertainment as well, and we believe that all is lost because they have seen some youtube vid that shows us how it happened.

How many times do we need to hear that it is our skills and dedication as performers that allow us to raise our spectators to a level to which the "secret" just isn't the end all after all? I cannot keep my jaw from dropping while watching someone who has his Zombie or Dancing Cane or silk routine, or even a clever, polished sponge ball routine... down solid... in many cases because he/she is doing what I cannot. STOP BEING A MAGICIAN. Once you get to this point, you'll still shake your head at the grunts who minimize the craft to the mere level of knowing the cause and effect, but you'll sleep a lot better at night knowing that it is you, the practiced professional, who can astound in spite of that.

Now, go and amaze.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Sep 20, 2010 07:31AM)
[quote]
On 2010-09-19 20:57, Double J wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-09-19 20:54, mandarin wrote:
Everyone who is not an ass...
[/quote]

That's not fair. You sir, don't know me.

But really, it's no big deal.


[/quote]

I agree with you totally, Double J, please accept my apology. As one who believes apathy should be one of the seven deadly sins, I so strongly feel that the trashing of our art should be met with at least some outcry from the magic community...
Message: Posted by: sanjaya (Sep 20, 2010 10:37AM)
I used to worry about exposure, but I don't any more. On the internet, the only people seeking it out are those interested in magic. As for TV stuff, I'd prefer they not expose it, but, honestly, I don't think people remember what they saw anyway. If a trick you do is exposed by the masked idiot, then don't perform it for a few weeks if you are concerned. Otherwise, it won't matter.

One of the most exposed tricks out there is a TT vanish of a silk, but I'll bet most of us can still fool most laymen with it, if it's performed properly. Also, most people have heard of palming and have an idea what it means. Does that mean you can't fool someone with it?

I don't care for exposure, but life's too short.
Message: Posted by: Payne (Sep 20, 2010 02:04PM)
[quote]
On 2010-09-20 08:31, mandarin wrote:

I agree with you totally, Double J, please accept my apology. As one who believes apathy should be one of the seven deadly sins, I so strongly feel that the trashing of our art should be met with at least some outcry from the magic community...

[/quote]

But isn't apathy the better way to respond to exposure. To do otherwise is to draw further attention to it and give it false value. If we treat it in a blasé manner then it will quickly fade away and give the exposer little reason to expose more.

But if we play into their hands and get all worked up about it then more attention is aroused and the exposer given motivation to continue in his endeavors.

Since there is nothing we can really do to prohibit or punish exposure isn't it better to take the high road than to end up looking foolish by wailing and gnashing our teeth?
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Sep 20, 2010 02:27PM)
To me, apathy is not better. I believe history points our rather clearly that apathy leads to many bad ends. Not much gets better by being ignored...
Message: Posted by: stempleton (Sep 20, 2010 03:17PM)
Perhaps "apathy" is too much to the extreme. Mandarin, I know by reading your posts you are a true champion against exposure. I applaud that. I believe we should safeguard with the utmost diligence the craft we love.

In the past, the knowledge was passed down by mentors to students, those deemed worthy to entrust the secrets we hold dear. The current state of commerce, combined with the free flow (or free "fall," as I call it) of information and the all-but-forgotten model of the mentor/student relationship has helped open the floodgates of exposure. Add to that mix those that do not share the moral or ethical standards we do, and you have the current state of affairs.


Accept it? Not at all. We continue our due diligence, but we don't allow the masked idiots of tv or the unmasked morons of the internet to lead us to an early grave. Perfection in our performances, originality in our presentations and marketed effects, unwavering in our own individual ethics and standards...in m opinion that is the high road that will guard our craft and our blood pressure.

Then again, maybe I'm just being naive.
Message: Posted by: Cyberqat (Sep 20, 2010 03:55PM)
If you dislike this, you might want to change your homepage. Then write MSN and tell them why.
Message: Posted by: The Burnaby Kid (Sep 21, 2010 04:27AM)
[quote]
On 2010-09-20 15:04, Payne wrote:
But isn't apathy the better way to respond to exposure.
[/quote]

Apathy is better when compared to kicking up a big whiny fuss... However, I'd argue that the best way to deal with exposure is to be proactive about it -- figure out the knowledge that's out there, figure out whether or not you're going to get busted on your routines, and then alter the construction or improve the method as necessary. Finally, when you've done that, keep your improvements made to yourself!

(Not speaking to you specifically, Master Payne.)
Message: Posted by: Pakar Ilusi (Sep 21, 2010 05:21AM)
[quote]
On 2010-09-21 05:27, Andrew Musgrave wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-09-20 15:04, Payne wrote:
But isn't apathy the better way to respond to exposure.
[/quote]

Apathy is better when compared to kicking up a big whiny fuss... However, I'd argue that the best way to deal with exposure is to be proactive about it -- figure out the knowledge that's out there, figure out whether or not you're going to get busted on your routines, and then alter the construction or improve the method as necessary. Finally, when you've done that, keep your improvements made to yourself!

(Not speaking to you specifically, Master Payne.)
[/quote]

I agree.
Message: Posted by: Double J (Sep 21, 2010 06:39AM)
[quote]
On 2010-09-20 08:31, mandarin wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-09-19 20:57, Double J wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-09-19 20:54, mandarin wrote:
Everyone who is not an ass...
[/quote]

That's not fair. You sir, don't know me.

But really, it's no big deal.


[/quote]

I agree with you totally, Double J, please accept my apology. As one who believes apathy should be one of the seven deadly sins, I so strongly feel that the trashing of our art should be met with at least some outcry from the magic community...
[/quote]

Although it is unfortunate, there is absolutely nothing anyone can do about it. Hence the "Who Cares".

Apology accepted.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Sep 21, 2010 06:58AM)
Thank you, JJ.

Now for some reasonable discourse-

I do not understand how one can KNOW "there is absolutely nothing anyone can do about it"? What have you done "about it" when you seem not to care enough to even raise a voice in protest?

I will not restate previous posts, but I could not disagree more with your position- a position I find running rampant in many areas of society. I find caring to be invigorating!

For the record, I care. About a lot of things. I doesn't make me tired, or angry- it makes me feel alive, worth the salt. Otherwise I would not even post. Which, of course, begs the question of why post if there is no care.

Speaking just for me, I would rather care. Quoting Mr. Donne:

"... for I am involved in mankind..."

Jim
Message: Posted by: magicgeorge (Sep 21, 2010 10:19AM)
I think the point is that yes it's good to care but by actively caring and doing something about it often makes the problem worse.

I'm always amazed about how people post a link to exposure videos before complaining. This only makes the video they're complaining about easier to find online.

As soon as fuss is kicked up about anything like this then the exposure will get more exposure.

I make my point by not watching these videos and switching of the masked magician, I can't really think of anything else I can do.
Message: Posted by: Double J (Sep 22, 2010 12:23PM)
[quote]
On 2010-09-21 07:58, mandarin wrote:
Thank you, JJ.

Now for some reasonable discourse-

I do not understand how one can KNOW "there is absolutely nothing anyone can do about it"? What have you done "about it" when you seem not to care enough to even raise a voice in protest?

I will not restate previous posts, but I could not disagree more with your position- a position I find running rampant in many areas of society. I find caring to be invigorating!

For the record, I care. About a lot of things. I doesn't make me tired, or angry- it makes me feel alive, worth the salt. Otherwise I would not even post. Which, of course, begs the question of why post if there is no care.

Speaking just for me, I would rather care. Quoting Mr. Donne:

"... for I am involved in mankind..."

Jim
[/quote]
I don't consider this to be much of a problem. I haven't heard of any solutions from those of you who think it is a problem. Probably because, like I stated before, there is absolutely nothing anyone can do about it. And Yes, I do know that there is nothing anyone can do about it. The only thing you can do, is make it worse. So why waste your energy?? That's not apathy on my part, just common sense.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Sep 22, 2010 06:10PM)
So, you think protest by itself always "makes it worse"?
Message: Posted by: Double J (Sep 22, 2010 09:25PM)
[quote]
On 2010-09-22 19:10, mandarin wrote:
So, you think protest by itself always "makes it worse"?
[/quote]
When it falls on deaf ears and you don't have numbers. I'll call that a losing battle. Are you going to protest to the same people that are revealing the magic tricks? Pretty sure they don't give a ****. In fact, most will likely continue exposing much more as long as they know it's p*ssing off you so called magicians. Maybe you can get Obama to give a speech from the White house lawn stating how unethical it is for non magicians to give away secrets. Yep, that should do the 'trick'.

He can take care of that right after He locks down our borders from all the Illegal Immigrants coming in and trashing this country. Oh, sorry! I have my priorities mixed. Let's 1st take care of this HUGE problem of magic exposure.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Sep 23, 2010 08:59AM)
I would think waiting until you "have numbers" qualifies as protest about as much as your sarcasm qualifies as reasonable discussion. So long ...
Message: Posted by: Double J (Sep 23, 2010 12:27PM)
[quote]
On 2010-09-23 09:59, mandarin wrote:
I would think waiting until you "have numbers" qualifies as protest about as much as your sarcasm qualifies as reasonable discussion. So long ...
[/quote]

No need to be upset. Just putting it in perspective for you. If magic exposure is still high on your list of subjects to protest, I have the answer for you. Make your routines more entertaining and the method will become secondary to whoever you're performing for. Remember, to me, it's no big deal!!

There was much more to my last post than Sarcasm. You should go re-read it.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Sep 23, 2010 04:16PM)
Well, dad always told me go with my first impressions...

FTR, I am not the least upset. When I said "so long" that meant I did not want to converse with you any longer. Please respect my wishes, and allow me to put things in my own perspective without your assistance... or do you expect thanks for your career advice regarding my shows?

I did re-read your post, and you are correct- I have amended my comments as follows:


I would think waiting until you "have numbers" qualifies as protest about as much as your INSIPID sarcasm qualifies as reasonable discussion. So long ...
Message: Posted by: The Burnaby Kid (Sep 23, 2010 08:33PM)
A few years ago I was part of a movement from Magic Video Depot that tried to put together a petition to stop exposure on Youtube. I tried to argue on its behalf over here at the Café -- I did so as "erlandish", maybe it'll come up in the search function (I personally can't be bothered to search it myself, that's how annoyed I was with the outcome of that whole event). Despite the efforts of those who wrote it, and those who argued on its behalf, the thing went nowhere as magicians with competing philosophies got bogged down in minutiae.

I realized then that it would be a waste of time waiting for a macro solution to the problem. Some will argue that it's too strong, others will argue that it's not strong enough, still others will argue that exposure is actually good, and the egos in the magic industry will almost certainly cause those who didn't write it themselves to object over anything right down to a misplaced semi-colon. To say that magicians can be a flaky bunch is a gross understatement.

After that realization, I got introspective, and realized that while we might not be able to solve it on the broad scale, we can deal with it in our own personal performing situation. The result was a ten-part blog about exposure, which ended up getting picked up by Ellusionist.

http://blog.ellusionist.com/paid-gigs-change-magicians-views-on-exposure/

I offer this specifically to point out that some of us who think that large scale efforts to deal with exposure are useless DO take exposure seriously -- we just handle it in our own way.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Sep 24, 2010 09:21AM)
Andrew-

Thank you for an enlightening post. Interesting reading, your link, with great ideas about how to circumvent the negative effects of the exposure we face these days.

Your experiences, in concert with many of the opinions toward the subject posted on the Café, have convinced me the magic community is ambivalent to the issue at best.

I am not The Man of La Mancha, but feel an obligation to the profession to speak to the issue when it comes up. Most all of my posts have been in response to a thread, like this one, from someone else who is nonplussed by exposure, rather than an issue I keep bringing up.

I feel I have a duty to respond, to say I do not support exposure, to say I care.

Jim
Message: Posted by: Double J (Sep 25, 2010 01:27PM)
[quote]
On 2010-09-23 17:16, mandarin wrote:
Well, dad always told me go with my first impressions...

FTR, I am not the least upset. When I said "so long" that meant I did not want to converse with you any longer. Please respect my wishes, and allow me to put things in my own perspective without your assistance... or do you expect thanks for your career advice regarding my shows?

I did re-read your post, and you are correct- I have amended my comments as follows:


I would think waiting until you "have numbers" qualifies as protest about as much as your INSIPID sarcasm qualifies as reasonable discussion. So long ...
[/quote]

As I thought, You have totally missed the point. Doesn't surprise me. But you are welcome for the career advice. Put it to good use.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Sep 28, 2010 05:21PM)
[quote]
On 2010-09-25 14:27, Double J wrote:...

As I thought, You have totally missed the point. Doesn't surprise me...
[/quote]

First, since when is there one point to a thing? Arguments like coins have two sides (at least). As a magicians it seems rather silly to write a claim that what one imagines is the only thing anyone could imagine.

Perhaps you could work on making your arguments in a way that your intended reader could consider. Then perhaps they would be in a position to make a reply that keeps the discussion moving in productive directions.

Whoops - just exposed a secret of communication. Do we have to move this thread to secret sessions? ;)
Message: Posted by: funsway (Sep 30, 2010 06:20AM)
No Jonathan -- not secret enough. You would have to go deeper in explaining that when a antithesis is offered a dialectic is formed in which the final balanced pronouncement from their lips is what you wanted all along -- the secret being that what you originally offered is not your objective "point" at all.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Sep 30, 2010 04:21PM)
In jest: "How would you know if that's really your point if it has no dimensions and neither of us lives in the neighborhood nor are ware we an epsilon or a delta?" ;)

Sorry, my capacity for tolerating facetious dialectics is lacking today. So rather than post the obvious from a quality perspective I'll leave the facile to chase the specious all the way to the spurious if they so choose.