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Topic: Source for large loads
Message: Posted by: Joshua Lozoff (Oct 13, 2010 11:17AM)
Hi folks,

Looking for a source for large red knit(crochet) balls that match small balls. Like 2.5" or 3", I guess. I've been looking all over. Thanks
Message: Posted by: Larry Barnowsky (Oct 13, 2010 11:50AM)
Try
http://sherwoodmagic.com/

He has tennis ball size knit load balls
Message: Posted by: DLarkins (Oct 13, 2010 02:37PM)
Also, JamesTong on this forum makes nice ones. Although, several folks have commented lately that they haven't been able to reach him.

His website is:

http://www.uniquemagicballs.com
Message: Posted by: Woland (Oct 13, 2010 02:45PM)
I think RNT2 has 1 7/8 inch balls that match at least some of their manipulation balls. I have no experience with these, but the regular manipulation and chopped RNT2 crochet balls are excellent.

Woland
Message: Posted by: Donnie Buckley (Oct 13, 2010 06:26PM)
I can make these.
But there's a big difference between 2 1/2" and 3". A ball that is exactly 2 1/2" is pretty much impossible. I can find 2 1/2" cores all day and knit a jacket over them, but they will come out to be 2 5/8".
What cups are you using them with?
Would you prefer them light or heavy?
They take time to make and you want to get the best fit.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Oct 13, 2010 11:33PM)
Josh:

Find a ball that will fit in your present cups with a clearance of 1/8 inch all the way around. Then Donnie can work with it. I have several custom balls that he has made.

But you need to be very specific about the size you want.
Message: Posted by: Joshua Lozoff (Oct 14, 2010 09:30PM)
Thanks for the resources. A few years ago, it was as simple as ordering a stock item from a catalog. The ones I have now were definitely not pre-measured, nor custom made. They are crochet over something rubber and bouncy. They appear to be 2 1/2 inch diameter, but might be 2 3/4.

Sherwood's look just like ones I have, but they have a cork inside. Mine are rubber, and I sure like being able to bounce them on the floor after I produce them. But then again, that's probably why they are starting to get a little grubby, hence the need for new ones.

Anyway thanks for all the guidance.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Oct 15, 2010 12:12AM)
A tennis ball makes an excellent center for a load. Morrissey used to make fairly large loads.

I lucked out at the IBM convention in San Diego. A friend of mine had several containers of crochet balls he was selling for very low prices. Among them were some tennis ball sized crochet balls. I bought almost all of them that he had.
Message: Posted by: yin_howe (Oct 15, 2010 01:10AM)
[quote]
On 2010-10-15 01:12, Bill Palmer wrote:
A tennis ball makes an excellent center for a load. Morrissey used to make fairly large loads.

I lucked out at the IBM convention in San Diego. A friend of mine had several containers of crochet balls he was selling for very low prices. Among them were some tennis ball sized crochet balls. I bought almost all of them that he had.
[/quote]

Wow..Just curious Mr Palmer, what do you do with hundreds/thousands of final loads?
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Oct 16, 2010 01:15AM)
A very long cups and balls routine.

Actually, I think every set should have the requisite set of balls and loads.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Dec 21, 2010 05:14PM)
[quote]
On 2010-10-14 22:30, Joshua Lozoff wrote:
Thanks for the resources. A few years ago, it was as simple as ordering a stock item from a catalog. The ones I have now were definitely not pre-measured, nor custom made. They are crochet over something rubber and bouncy. They appear to be 2 1/2 inch diameter, but might be 2 3/4.

Sherwood's look just like ones I have, but they have a cork inside. Mine are rubber, and I sure like being able to bounce them on the floor after I produce them. But then again, that's probably why they are starting to get a little grubby, hence the need for new ones.

Anyway thanks for all the guidance.
[/quote]

No, it really wasn't. For example, Mike Rogers' large baseball loads were not really the right size for a set of Paul Fox cups. They were a little small. He had the same problem that Donnie has expressed. He could not find a 2 1/4" ball to use as a core for a baseball. I found several, sent them to him and got the first set of Mike Rogers baseball final loads that were exactly the right size for a Paul Fox cup.

Many cups look like they are exactly the same dimensions, but they aren't. For example, the Johnson cups, which are based somewhat on the Paul Fox cups, will actually take a slightly larger load.
Message: Posted by: cdmdu (Jan 14, 2011 03:59PM)
At this address: http://danis-magic.com/cariboost1/crbst_2.html are final load 2.51"
These are crocheted balls of great quality and a quite big choice of colours. You can ask Pascaline and François for any question, they always will try to give satisfaction to you.

I just have a question about it: my beautiful 2.51" loads balls are too big for my bazar de magia copper cups (1 or 2mm bigger, alas!)
My Morrissey cups are even smaller.
Do you know some cups having the right diameter for this loads (and tennis ball too)? I secretly dream about Sherwood's nickel plated cups but I fear these could be to large and my loads should appear ridiculous.
I have the same problem with my RNT II Don Alan chop cup, which overwhelm even a official sized baseball.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Jan 14, 2011 05:27PM)
If your final load balls are too big, you need to get smaller balls, not bigger cups. BTW, if you are worrying about the loads being too small for the cups, you don't understand why final loads work. They do NOT have to be so big that they look like they won't fit into the cup. They just have to be big or different. The size illusion is peculiar to the Paul Fox cups. It doesn't work well with some others.

A regulation tennis ball is between 2.5" and 2.625". The Sherwood cups are MADE for this size load. The Sherwood crocheted load balls are made for these cups. You can't get a bigger ball into that cup. The size illusion works well with these.

Regarding the Don Alan Chop Cup -- the standard DACC was made for a Cressite® rubber ball that was nominally 3" in diameter. The actual size is closer to 3.1". These were dog toys. You may be able to find one of these in France or England. I haven't found any in the US in many years, since PetSmart and Petco took over the pet industry. However, I believe you are exaggerating when you say that the DACC "overwhelms" a regulation baseball. A regulation baseball is an impressive final load.

Also, there are ways to produce loads that will not fit into the cups. I can't go into that here, because this is an open forum, but once you have 50 posts, you will be able to locate some information on that.

BTW, a word about the "size illusion." It's important if you are a washed-up former sleight of hand star who is using it to cadge drinks from unsuspecting bystanders at bars. But it's not nearly as important if you are a cups and balls performer, per se. The size of the final loads is surprising. If you worry about whether your "load" is big enough, this worry will transmit itself to your audience, and you will be unable to perform. ;)
Message: Posted by: cdmdu (Jan 15, 2011 04:22AM)
Thank you for all these informations.

I actually was exaggerating when writing about the DACC and a baseball load, since it is an impressive final load but not very "expressive" one in France. And my tennis sized ball is of course impressive too. My main problem is in fact the big sized of the cup, which has a beautiful visibility upon my table but is quite not very practical in close-up conditions (with my low magic level). My question is instead "Do you know some smaller chop-cup fitting with tennis-ball load?"
I didn't know anything about Cressite(R) ball but this seems to be interesting. I will explore nearby pet-shops.

To produce loads bigger than the mouth cup, I have information in Paul Gertner's and Takagi's book and also in Chelman's video. I don't know if better description exists, but these are sufficient for me and my poor magic level.

In fact, my question should better have been written like this:
"I'm looking for a new set of cups and I wish I could use my tennis sized loads with it (trying to reach two goals in one). Could you give me some advice? Sherwood's cups are very pleasant to me and I think that the combo set could give satisfaction to me for chop cup effects as well as classic cups and ball routines. Having only cooper cups, I am attracted to silver/steel/nickel colored cups. Perhap's the mikame cups (though I far as I know, Mikame combo doesn't exist)could be a good choice too?"



Please don't care about my poor English, my questions aren't perhaps very clear.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Jan 15, 2011 04:31AM)
No problem with your English. It's much better than my French. ;)

The older Sherwood chop cups (which match the standard Sherwood cups) would not accept a tennis ball and sit perfectly flat on a table. The newer ones will. However, unless you are using these as part of a combo set, they really look somewhat out of place. Some people use them by themselves, though.

Mikame made some wooden cups in which all three cups were given the chop cup gimmick. They were too small to take a tennis ball, though.

If you are seated, there should be no problem loading a tennis ball into a chop cup.

Before you go any farther, though, I think you should send an e-mail to curator@cupsandballsmuseum.com and get a username and password. Then you will have a chance to see more than 350 chop cups. It's free.

Also, please post often enough that you can get your post count up past 50. There is a whole thread about final loads in the Secret Sessions. You can't access the secret sessions until you have 50 posts.
Message: Posted by: cdmdu (Jan 15, 2011 07:15AM)
Thanks a lot.
You already sent me a username and password (showing that your French is not so bas as you can say ;-)) for your museum for a few weeks. Still rubbing my eyes! it's astonishing!

Posting more than 50 messages is difficult for me as I don't know enough to give really interesting advices and even more because English is not my own language and that I'm not inform about magical thinking and magical knowledge in the US. For example, I don't know anything about magic TV shows or "fashionable" magical effects in the US, so I can't be very "congruent" in my answers (for example, I have no idea of my vocabulary: do I use a common language or a medieval one, or a mix of two?). Also I always fear asking something many times answered because my vocabulary stop me from correctly using the search item.

I have a poor quality wooden three cups set (and a fourth solid one) and using it correctly needs still practising hours and hours.
I am currently looking for a "grey metal" coloured set and since I will buy a set of cups, I prefer as well choosing a quality one and having no regrets. Better is that I could use a chop-cup with it instead of needing a new set if I want to change my routine.
Message: Posted by: dcjames (Jan 15, 2011 07:36AM)
Cdmdu -

I highly recommended RNT2 as for quality cups of many sizes, metals, and finishes.

http://www.rnt2.com/

In my experience you will get great customer service and quick responses to any questions you may have.

Donnie has a terrific site that clearly lists the average weight, working ball size, final load size, etc. for every cup in his line.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Jan 15, 2011 01:50PM)
I agree with this completely.

@cdmdu -- you can post in some other parts of the Café where you have interests, even if the interests are somewhat slim.

Asking a question is a good way to build up a post count. Don't worry about your English. It's better than the English of some of the people who grew up here!!!!!
Message: Posted by: cdmdu (Jan 15, 2011 02:59PM)
Thank you for praising to the skies my English as well, but it's a sort of magical effect of the computer: you can't see me losing time over my Harap's dictionary looking for the correct word.

@dcjames -
I now know every secret (not at all, of course ;-) ) of the RNT II site, because I have spend a lot of time dreaming of this beautiful cups.
I bought an aluminium Don Alan CC three months ago aiming to see the quality of the products. And I confirm it is great work. Donnie send me a free gaffed set of 2 green-water balls with the cup and these are beautiful too.

I like Foxy 3, PF, obviously (but these haven't got an associated chop cup) and shibby also are pleasant to me.
I secretly had a dream about the mini combo PF but today, like the foxy 3, it doesn't exist with white chrome finition (the most impressive to my eyes).
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Jan 15, 2011 06:07PM)
Re: the mini pf combo set, I think this is what you are looking for http://www.rnt2.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=30332

If you want to produce a tennis ball from a chop cup, http://www.rnt2.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=29953 should be about right.

It's also available in bright chrome.
Message: Posted by: asgar (Jan 17, 2011 08:31AM)
I know a guy using fairly large balls for chop cup routine on stage.It's probably 1-1.5 inch.It's a pretty good idea for stage.He told me he bought it from England where it was sold as loads for cups and balls.He just did some moderation.
So where can I get some cheap 1.5 inch crochet balls to use in my routine?I have some yellow crochet sponge balls but they are probably 2'' and just don't feel right.
Message: Posted by: cdmdu (Jan 17, 2011 01:02PM)
I most of time use 1 inch crocheted ball too.

1 inch balls are available from bazar de magia: http://www.bazardemagia.com/home.php?p=prod_detalle&idProducto=1776
They are very cheap and correctly finalized for their price, but I can't say that they are the top of the top. Surprisingly, I bought 2 different cups sets from Bazar and, 6 years after the first purchasing are the balls quite different, more finely crocheted.

In Europe, but in France, not England, I know Pascaline et François Danis: http://danis-magic.com/cariboost1/crbst_2.html
They are selling very beautiful crocheted balls and you have a great choice of colours. They are sincerely nice and they answer to every question you should ask. Your wanted 1.5 inch should be feasible without problem.

Any magic boutiques also sell a lot of balls, crocheted or not.

Just the few help I can give.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Jan 17, 2011 01:57PM)
I have obtained many sets of balls from Pascaline and François. They have all been extremely high quality.

Regarding the balls from RnT II -- they basically have kept the same consistency of product that Rings and Things had years ago. I don't recall Rings and Things (I) ever making load balls. There was no reason to. Harry Monti specified the size of his cups so that they would fit a fairly common rubber ball that was available from any toy store. The Don Alan cup was built to take the Cressite® play ball for dogs.

Morrissey has been making excellent balls for decades.

Unfortunately for us, the high volume makers have found that certain colors of wool are no longer made or their suppliers no longer stock them. A few years ago, you could get many different colors of ball from Morrissey. Now they are down to three or four. That's not a good sign. They use only wool yarn.

RnT II, on the other hand, is very responsive to the needs of cups and balls workers, and Donnie is now making a much wider selection of ball than has been previously available.

There was a period of time about 15 years ago, when there was basically only one place in North America that supplied crochet balls. That's changed. It wasn't a matter of being easier to find a large load ball that would fit your cup. There was just a restricted choice.

Martin Pacheco at Bazar has been making improvements in the quality of his products. I think his current crop is very good. However, they won't work with ALL cups. Those of you who have seen my posts about the way these things are made for chop cups realize that there are two basic ways to make these. Bazar chop balls have S***s. RnT II's have M*****s. The ones with M*****s will work in more sets than the others. Also, the others must, by their very nature, be much lighter.
Message: Posted by: cdmdu (Jan 18, 2011 05:32PM)
On the other hand, Bazar chop balls with S***s could be "choped" from both sides. It allows one or two specifics moves... not of really common use, so most of time it doesn't matter.
But I began with this Bazar balls and when I got other gaffed balls, I was surprised at not being able to do these moves.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Jan 18, 2011 10:38PM)
On the other hand, certain other moves that are possible with the other type of ball don't work very consistently with the Bazar balls.