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Topic: Split dove production-- seriously?
Message: Posted by: Sam Sandler (Oct 19, 2010 06:28PM)
Ok, let me first say I would not call my self a dove worker, although I have produced doves for about 7 years in over 2000 shows. However, recently, I have only been doing non body loads.

As I come back to the dove workings of body loads, I started to look at the split dove.

I have never liked it, and it never fooled me, nor any of my friends I have brought to magic shows.

So, here is the question. For those that do it, HONESTLY, does it really go over well? Does it really fool anyone? And, the whole other side is how violently you mash the doves before the split.

Now, I will say I have no issues with invisible harnesses and quick productions. I am more concerned about this effect looking so bad.

I recently watched countless videos of it, and not one looked good to me.

Where am I wrong? Or, am I?

thanks
Message: Posted by: hugmagic (Oct 19, 2010 08:00PM)
Split doves I think do react on the layman. I think some guys go to the well too often but as a rule it does play.

My only problem with it is the invisible harness. It is hard on the birds. Johnny Thompson has never used one on his any of this birds for that reason.

Richard
Message: Posted by: 1906Alpha1906 (Oct 19, 2010 08:03PM)
In short, the split goes over very well. Laymen gasp when its done, it just depends on how its done and when its done. Try to look at it from a laymen perspective rather than a magicians perspective. *smile* Being in the business for so long, you know what to look for, normal people don't. It all depends on the timing of the split is all.
As for the 'violent' mashing. My doves never touch each other during my split. They don't have to touch each other. I have used different methods of splits also without IH involved. I guess maybe you have seen some pretty bad examples, but for most, the doves are not put against each other as you may think. They really can't be put on each other if you think about it thoroughly.

I like the split, its dynamic and totally takes a regular laymen off guard when it happens - IF done correctly.

Just my 2 cents...but my money isn't worth much anyways! *haha*
Message: Posted by: Sam Sandler (Oct 19, 2010 08:53PM)
I know and knew that some one would point out the magic side verses layman side but still I don't get it:)

and 1906 you are right I am looking at it more like a magician but I just don't get this one

I have watched some of the best in the world do it and does nothing for me

so here is what I am planning
I am going to work on putting it in the show and see for myself what the reactions are. I think this will be the only way for me to really test my thoughts
Message: Posted by: Dave Scribner (Oct 19, 2010 09:01PM)
Sam, as mentioned, it's the surprise factor the impresses the lay audience. You'll never impress yourself with it.

For a comparison, if you haven't seen it already, try to watch the Video lecture tape of Victor and Diamond. They do the split with white rabbits. Now that's impressive but again it's the surprise factor.
Message: Posted by: Sam Sandler (Oct 19, 2010 10:32PM)
Yes yes I agree the audience does not know what is coming therefore magic works
however at least the videos and live performances I have seen well they just were horrible and even my manager was telling me exactly what he did and ask why he would do that

again I need to play with it myself to get some real world reactions
I don't deny it works I just can not seem to wrap my little brain around it:)
Message: Posted by: jasanchez (Oct 20, 2010 02:47AM)
Ill I can say every time I do a show, I always have people asking me how did I split one bird in to two, In my opinion the split dove production is one of the most amazing productions in dove magic, people love it.
Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (Oct 20, 2010 03:11AM)
Sam, we have no control over poorly performed magic tricks, do we.

I first saw this performed by Joseph Gabriel on television. It was truely wonderful effect. On that showing there were certain things that happened that sold the effect to a true split of 1 dove to 2.

This has never been in print to my knowledge or has it been on a DVD teaching video that I know of. So every magicians thinks they can do it, and does it poorly. As usual no thought or practice and how it should be performed properly.

I don't know if it is Joseph Grabriel's original thought, but right after that apppearence by him, everyone was talking about it and I even heard magicians at a convention saying that if you do doves you have to perform this effect. Then every dove magician on was doing the effect.

If done properly, there is no discomfort to the doves, you do not 'smash' them together. This is the kind of thoughts that make people perform it incorrectly.

It is truly to bad!
Message: Posted by: hugmagic (Oct 20, 2010 09:33AM)
Johnny Ace Palmer has been doing it closeup for years.

Richard
Message: Posted by: GrahamFishman (Oct 20, 2010 10:14AM)
Its all about timing the split right.

graham
Message: Posted by: ARNOMAGIE (Oct 20, 2010 04:41PM)
A poorly done dove-split looks like another dove appearance, not a split !

Joseph Gabriel dove split is perfect : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnd2vWk8iBI&feature=player_embedded (at 2 mn).

Like also the Frewin split with a big knife (and a different technique), the knife enhances the idea of "splitting" the dove. Nice thinking.
Message: Posted by: aboycemagic (Oct 20, 2010 06:17PM)
I have never seen a dove split better ,in my opinion, than Joseph Gabriel's.
Message: Posted by: Sam Sandler (Oct 20, 2010 09:15PM)
Ok first off yes it looked nice and apparently I had not seen Joseph perform this before BUT the camera angle helped make it look that much better in my opinion

not trying to take any thing away from his work but I need to see it straight on to compare it to the others I have seen

I have an idea of how I will do it and have put a lot of thought into this

thanks for the comments and video and I look forward to more insight into this effect.

sam
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (Oct 21, 2010 02:37AM)
Sam, check out the kid's reactions on my promo video when I perform the rabbit/ chinchilla split in 1' 30". http://www.detroitmagician.com//index-4.html
Message: Posted by: dahih beik (Oct 21, 2010 05:08AM)
The dove split is one of the strong effects in dove magic .. that is sure . however there are different methods of doing it some are stronger than the other . for example James dimmer does it beginning side ways witch is fine and compliments with his moves on stage , but the best is Andy amyx method that means facing the audience ..one of the most important thing about it is the second or less standing still moment after acquiring the dove before doing the split . you want it to be as clear as possible I don't like some that just produce the dove while bough dove are flattering ..the effect become as another production and not a split , at one second bought doves should be allined like one note should be taken of the wings ..then do the split . dan birch does the best out there .
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (Oct 21, 2010 10:20AM)
The only production higher than the Split Dove Production to me is the Double Dove Production.
Message: Posted by: AnthonytheMagic (Oct 21, 2010 11:09PM)
Sam,
Just to put my 2 cents in I do a dove split, taught to me by the GREAT ANDY AMYX!!!
If you don't like the way they look then don't do one! Why should we try and talk you into doing it.... that's like card guys trying to talk me into all those flouishes.... not going to happen!
Respectfully,
Anthony
Message: Posted by: Sam Sandler (Oct 22, 2010 09:49AM)
Anthony- I am not tryingot get talked into it what I am asking is as I pursure getting backinto steals and body loads I want to do the dove split however I have never liked it w hen I see it.

My goal is to find a way to make it work so I DO like it.

I love the concept just not the presentations.
Oddly enough I actually think I might have Andys video on doves floating around here some where I will have to find it and take a look for the split doves

I appreciate all the those that have chimed in and this is what I wanted to hear as I pursue this.

my expectations is to have the new manip act ready shortly after the new year.

first I need to find a difibular - actaully I just need the paddles and the cord with them. Yes its for the routine:)

sam
Message: Posted by: Michael Trixx (Oct 22, 2010 11:05PM)
People certainly do gasp when I do the split, it surely fools them, however, I think this trick is only effective LIVE it's easily seen on video, But the moment you seperate them LIVE is a magic moment for people.
I have studied with Johhnny Thompson And know he dislikes the I.H but if your going to use them (I do) I highly recommend Tony Clark's , I have used many of them and his seems to be the most comfortable on my birds and it pulls from a center point making it not so rough on the doves.
One of the main prob;lems with the Invisible Harness is that the birds claws poke through the fabric of your dove pocket(this can happen with dove bags too) and if you just Yank the bird out you could take nail right off causing major bleeding . so keep the nails trim , (be carfeul trimming them, or put sand paper on the perches and will file down.) Also, I do a little get ready before I produce the bird, Pulling him about two inches forward which will help make sure the nails are not stuck.
Good Luck Out htere Dove guys!
Message: Posted by: dahih beik (Oct 23, 2010 01:08AM)
I scotch tape a piece of aliminated card in the pocket , for the IH production , and I never had a draging proplem .
Message: Posted by: Michael Trixx (Oct 24, 2010 08:28PM)
That's a great idea,Thanx for sharing. I have black duct tape along the bottom of mine
Message: Posted by: Dave Scribner (Oct 24, 2010 08:53PM)
I mentioned this several times in different topics here but to improve the slide of the dove from the pocket, take a plastic sheet protector available in most office supply stores, cut it a little shorter than the length of the pocket and wide enough to form a U shaped channel in the pocket. Slide this into the pocket and your doves will almost shoot out. A little piece of double sided tape at the edge will hold it in place.

Just make sure you get the heavy duty protector. The ones sold in grocery stores are usually much too flimsy and the birds nails will penetrate them.

Keeping the tip of the nails trimmed is really the key though. Only the very tip needs to be trimmed. One stroke with an emery board on each nail is all that is necessary.
Message: Posted by: John T. Sheets (Oct 28, 2010 03:14AM)
[quote]
On 2010-10-24 21:53, Dave Scribner wrote:
I mentioned this several times in different topics here but to improve the slide of the dove from the pocket, take a plastic sheet protector available in most office supply stores, cut it a little shorter than the length of the pocket and wide enough to form a U shaped channel in the pocket. Slide this into the pocket and your doves will almost shoot out. A little piece of double sided tape at the edge will hold it in place.

Just make sure you get the heavy duty protector. The ones sold in grocery stores are usually much too flimsy and the birds nails will penetrate them.

Keeping the tip of the nails trimmed is really the key though. Only the very tip needs to be trimmed. One stroke with an emery board on each nail is all that is necessary.
[/quote]
Kenrick Ice talks about something simular to this on his dove dvd.
Message: Posted by: Dave Scribner (Oct 28, 2010 05:25AM)
Yes he does. Didn't mean to imply it was my idea. Just passing on some info.
Message: Posted by: Fábio DeRose (Oct 28, 2010 07:46AM)
Ha, I was just watching Dan Sperry's mesmerizing Dove Act, where he does a Dove Split behind his back: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZg6wcAF1nk

Andrély does a great standard Split, too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhK0T2AHKT8
Message: Posted by: briansmagic (Oct 30, 2010 07:18PM)
I think Rick Thomas does a great dove split...probably one of the best. I think if performed properly, it's one of the best dove effects a guy could do...
Message: Posted by: raywitko (Nov 2, 2010 06:16PM)
Misdirection is a wonderful thing. I used to open with my dove act. Close to the end of the act I would do a dove to silk using a tail pocket. I still had about twenty minutes to go and didn't want to keep the dove in the pocket so came up with a way to get rid of it. With the silk I would tie a knot. While I make the knot vanish I would steal an appearing cane from my pocket. I would cover the hand with the cane in it with the silk. Pop the cane open and the silk flys up into the air. As I hand the cane to my assistant I steal a dove from a body load with the same hand holding the silk. Produce the dove and turn sideways to hand the silk to my assistant. As she reaches for the silk I steal the dove from the tail pocket and bring it next to the first dove. I then split the doves. Done in a smooth motion it works great and has good audience reactions.
Ray
Message: Posted by: MagicJuggler (Dec 1, 2010 04:57AM)
I'll just add my two cents as far as layman reaction to a dove split: It gets a good reaction. I have often watched magic shows on TV with family and friends who are layman, and their reaction to dove magic done well is always strong, and they never see the split coming. The split has a very nice look to it from a visual standpoint. Do it or don't, but this has been my observation from seeing many laymen friends react to the trick.
Message: Posted by: itsmagic (Dec 6, 2010 12:11AM)
Just curious if Sam ever decided on his dove split routine?

I saw Anthony The Magic perform this live and it caught me off guard, and also got a great reaction from the audience.
Message: Posted by: sperris (Dec 23, 2010 10:13AM)
Joseph Gabriel.