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Topic: Zenneth Kok Cups
Message: Posted by: ekins (Dec 2, 2010 08:36PM)
Has anyone seen or heard of these new cups that Denny is selling?

http://dennymagic.com/products/trick/paul-fox-style-copper-cups-and-balls/

-Brian
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Dec 2, 2010 09:03PM)
Yes. I have a set of these, as well as the matching chop cup and the matching solid cup in the cups and balls museum.

They are larger than a standard Paul Fox cup by just a little bit, so that they will accept a tennis ball as a load.

That's the good news. The odd news (not necessarily bad news) is that they are copper plated copper. I don't know why this was done, but that's what they are.
Message: Posted by: fortasse (Dec 2, 2010 09:07PM)
Copper-plated copper? Odd indeed!

Fortasse
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Dec 2, 2010 09:35PM)
I don't get it, either.
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Dec 2, 2010 10:04PM)
Plating might be smarter and cheaper than polishing. Where are these made?
Message: Posted by: dcjames (Dec 2, 2010 11:10PM)
I have a set of these cups as well. Although my set is not bad for the price, the plating was not very well done. There are visible flaws on the saddles of my set where the plating appears to have some sort of debris beneath it.

I understand that quality control was an issue when these were available only on the big, colorful, auction site. I have heard some say that they are great cups for the money while others were not at all pleased with the sets they recieved...

http://www.cupsandballsmagic.com/Zenneth-Kok-Paul-Fox-Type-Cups-and-Kicker-Solid-Cup.html

Posted: Dec 3, 2010 12:15am
I just noticed that the ad on Denny & Lee's site states 'brushed finish' so plating may no longer be an issue.
Message: Posted by: gaddy (Dec 3, 2010 02:34AM)
A different alloy for the finish? Still doesn't make a lot of sense...
Message: Posted by: Andrew Zuber (Dec 3, 2010 07:13AM)
That's quite the glowing review on the web site! I'll be sure and pick up a set on the big site at once!
Message: Posted by: cupsandballsmagic (Dec 3, 2010 07:38AM)
I think they've got potential Andrew, I just think I was sent junk.
Message: Posted by: Andrew Zuber (Dec 3, 2010 08:03AM)
I guess my worry would be that if they damage easily, it could be risky. I think I could drop a Mendoza cup off a skyscraper and it would land undamaged - with a regulation tennis ball underneath and 3 1" balls nested beautifully on the top, of course.
Message: Posted by: Al Kazam the Magic Man (Dec 3, 2010 08:57AM)
I'd be willing to bet a whole lot of moola that they were made in China.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Dec 3, 2010 10:28AM)
That's not a secret.
Message: Posted by: yin_howe (Dec 5, 2010 09:36PM)
I was considering these as well, but not anymore I guess..
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Brown (Dec 6, 2010 01:29PM)
I had a friend who recently went to the Mike Vincent lecture at Denny's in MD. He handled four sets of these. Of that, the first three were damaged either in shipping, or according to Denny were handled by prospective buyers who stacked them or handled them and the cups simply dented and scratched. My friend was convinced that they were just junk cups and Denny wasn't thrilled either. The last set although they had no physically noticeable flaws were less than favorable according to him. They didn't stack properly, rocked when loaded with the balls they came with, and the others- the finish was worn on the beads of the cup, they were dinged up etc etc...he said that they were junk and would never withstand repeated professional or probably even amateur use. I dunno, as I haven't seen a set myself- but this guy is a cups and balls worker and he was not a fan at all of these. Kind of a let down as I actually was hoping for an affordable set of PF style cups...

Jonathan
Message: Posted by: Donnie Buckley (Dec 6, 2010 01:36PM)
They look real nice in the picture. :)

A new set of real PF cups will only set you back $250 these days. Less if you prefer a copper satin finish.
In the scheme of things, that seems pretty affordable for a set of professional quality cups.
Message: Posted by: Kevin Gardner (Dec 7, 2010 12:43AM)
Yes, Murphy's has recently started to carry these, so they are widely available now. For the past year they appeared on eBay by the same vendor in China. I remember reading somewhere that they were packaged very poorly for shipping to the USA, resulting in buyers receiving damaged cups.

For me the original Paul Fox size is perfect, especially when you use Fab Fruit. Tennis balls make for a boring final load and to the lay audience a lacrosse ball looks to be the same size as a tennis ball. Plus lacrosse balls don't leave green fuzz all over your close up mat like tennis balls do. And lacrosse balls are more colorful and solid than tennis balls.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Dec 7, 2010 01:03AM)
I really hate to see these posts that say "I remember reading somewhere" or "I heard that" when there doesn't seem to be any evidence to support the statements. About a year ago, I posted that when I got my set, which was one of the first ones sold, because it had only the small tennis balls, and not the crocheted balls, it had been packed in material that was barely adequate, but that the cups did survive the trip. I don't know that anyone actually received a set that was damaged in transit.

I don't know how a tennis ball would make a "boring" final load, unless you presented the final load in a boring manner.

As far as fuzz coming off the tennis balls onto a closeup mat -- I've never seen that happen.
Message: Posted by: Kevin Gardner (Dec 7, 2010 10:58AM)
[quote]
On 2010-12-07 02:03, Bill Palmer wrote:
I really hate to see these posts that say "I remember reading somewhere" or "I heard that" when there doesn't seem to be any evidence to support the statements. [/quote]

Here is where I read about the damaged Kok cups:
http://www.cupsandballsmagic.com/Zenneth-Kok-Paul-Fox-Type-Cups-and-Kicker-Solid-Cup.html

[quote]
On 2010-12-07 02:03, Bill Palmer wrote:

As far as fuzz coming off the tennis balls onto a closeup mat -- I've never seen that happen.
[/quote]
It's probably the mat's fault, I use a Magic Makers mat.
Message: Posted by: cupsandballsmagic (Dec 7, 2010 11:18AM)
[quote]
On 2010-12-07 01:43, Kevin Gardner wrote:
I remember reading somewhere that they were packaged very poorly for shipping to the USA, resulting in buyers receiving damaged cups.

Here is where I read about the damaged Kok cups:
http://www.cupsandballsmagic.com/Zenneth-Kok-Paul-Fox-Type-Cups-and-Kicker-Solid-Cup.html
[/quote]

Kevin. I think you may be mistaken. These cups were NOT damaged in transit, I have stated that in the review and also stated that I was "sent junk" on this thread, meaning that the cups were obviously sent in used and damaged condition.

The large dent was above the shoulder bead on the centre cup in a stack of 3 and the packaging was unscathed.

I do not live in the USA.

I have also stated both in my review and on this thread that these cups have potential, it was just a shame that I was sent POETS cups.

Bri
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Dec 7, 2010 11:52AM)
I don't think Zenneth knew my buyer name on eBay, so I don't believe he hand-picked the cups. They are better than some, worse than others. I think getting them from a magic dealer is a much safer method, for two reasons. He probably has them packed better for shipping in quantity, and you can return them to most dealers for an exchange.
Message: Posted by: cupsandballsmagic (Dec 7, 2010 12:08PM)
I think you are correct about buying from a dealer Bill. Mine were bought from my better half's account on ebay.
Bri
Message: Posted by: Andrew Zuber (Dec 7, 2010 12:12PM)
[quote]
On 2010-12-07 13:08, cupsandballsmagic wrote:
I think you are correct about buying from a dealer Bill. Mine were bought from my better half's account on ebay.
Bri
[/quote]
I was wondering who'd hacked into my account.
P.S. That skirt you ordered showed up here too. It's super cute!!!
Message: Posted by: cupsandballsmagic (Dec 7, 2010 01:54PM)
Only the best for you baby ;)
Message: Posted by: Kevin Gardner (Dec 7, 2010 08:49PM)
[quote]
On 2010-12-07 12:18, cupsandballsmagic wrote:
These cups were NOT damaged in transit, I have stated that in the review and also stated that I was "sent junk" on this thread, meaning that the cups were obviously sent in used and damaged condition.[/quote]

Sorry about that, I was incorrect.
Message: Posted by: cupsandballsmagic (Dec 8, 2010 02:21AM)
No need for an apology Kevin, I actually would rather someone send out decent cups which were damaged in the mail than send out cups in that condition in the first place!
Message: Posted by: Andrew Zuber (Dec 8, 2010 09:53AM)
It's far easier to beat up the mailman than to beat up the random dude in Nepal who sent you a crummy set of cups.
Message: Posted by: cupsandballsmagic (Jan 6, 2011 08:24AM)
Have you seen the size of my mailman???? :arg:
Message: Posted by: RS1963 (Jan 6, 2011 02:31PM)
I've seen a couple sets of these at Denny's shop in Vegas. There not bad I think the center beads are less pronounced than they should be. But they are usable. I have handled them more than once and haven't seen any plating issues on the sets there. For the price they are worth it.
Message: Posted by: Richard Evans (Jan 15, 2011 09:36AM)
About copper plated copper...
Just wondering why choose this method: Could it be that plating means there's less work to do polishing & buffing the cups?
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Jan 15, 2011 01:48PM)
No, not at all. The plated surface will have all of the bumps and lumps of the surface itself. Plating can make an alloy that doesn't mix properly look all the same color, though. Or it can take three cups that are different colors and make them appear to be the same.
Message: Posted by: Richard Evans (Jan 16, 2011 05:14AM)
Thanks Bill. So, the cups can be made of less high-quality copper?
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Jan 16, 2011 01:38PM)
Yes. To be kinder, I would say "less consistent" copper. You could use copper from two different batches and plate the cups to look alike.
Message: Posted by: cupsandballsmagic (Jan 16, 2011 03:08PM)
It puzzled me for some time as to why they would be plated. I initially thought that it was to save money on polishing, however the plating is dependant on the surface anyway so you'd need a polished finish. Though I noticed the ones advertised by some dealers are satin finish. I think that you have hit the nail on the head Bill, it's the only palusible explanation I think.

Bri