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Topic: Dove Pockets
Message: Posted by: g0thike (Jul 28, 2003 02:41PM)
I just wanted to get people’s opinion on dove pockets. I currently use the flat pockets and I have never used the box-square dove pockets.

Is their any difference between them, which ones work better for barehanded productions and/or to hide the loads?

Message: Posted by: Dave Scribner (Jul 28, 2003 02:54PM)
Square or flat has no bearing on hiding the loads. Your doves should be positioned far enough inside the pocket so they do not flash. The weight of the bird is going to make the pocket sag like a hammock in either case. I personally use the flat, Tony Clark and Gen Grant type holders. They lay flat after the production and provide sufficient cover while the doves are inside.
Message: Posted by: g0thike (Jul 28, 2003 04:18PM)
But have you ever used the square ones because I use the flats ones and I wanted to know the con's and pro's between each?

I am asking because I had the theory that the square ones keep the bird from moving more than the flat ones. I could be wrong.

I am just asking because sometimes even the trained birds get moody and move around and the loops go inside the pocket and you have to fish around on stage and it looks really bad. I use barehanded productions primarily.

Message: Posted by: Dave Scribner (Jul 28, 2003 07:54PM)
I personally have not used the square ones but have seen them. Doing barehand productions does allow the bird to move a little bit more than if it were in a holder but I've always found the once they are in the pocket and in the dark, they settle down. You are correct that they can be moody at times though.
As for the loops sliding into the pocket, if you are having that problem, you want to try a different method of securing it. It should be held ready for you regardless of the type of production you are doing. If you don't mind saying, how to do hold the loops in place now?
Message: Posted by: DaveWomach (Jul 28, 2003 07:59PM)
I use the square pockets, mainly because it's less tension and stress on the dove when it's loaded. I've found that on occasion, my doves would get "pinched" in my flat pockets. The square ones do lay flat after the production.

Have you tried square ones?

Hope this helps!

Message: Posted by: Dave Scribner (Jul 28, 2003 08:11PM)
I've never thought about pinching the doves. I've never had it happen but it's good to know about. Thanks Dave.
Message: Posted by: g0thike (Jul 28, 2003 11:15PM)
All my productions are barehanded and I use black wire and just bend the loop around the lapel. I like the control black wire gives especially when doing splits. Im am currently adding velcro to my harness and the inside jacket edge so the loops can be hidden.

I taught about using loop connect and dove retainers like Ice McDonald. It might be a possibility.

Dave I have never used the square ones. I do have the "glove to doves" square sleeve pockets from that Millard (sp) guy.

Nice video by the way I mainly bought it for the parrot and parakeet info. But overall it was good.

Message: Posted by: R2 (Jul 28, 2003 11:45PM)
One of Kendrick's Parrot's claw nails remained stuck in the production foulard during the "Souldiers of Sorcery Gala"....at the close of his performance.

I felt so bad for him because it toom him the better part of five seconds to free it and make the steal...

Everyone in the audience was kind to him as it was mostly a room full of performers...

I post this as a reminder to remember to clip your bird's claw nails....keep them trimmed....

Here's another hint.
I used to duct tape the inside of my harnesses to make them smoother on the feathers during the steals.
Try it....!~rr
Message: Posted by: Dave Scribner (Jul 29, 2003 04:25AM)
Since we're talking about making a smooth steal, I line some of my pockets with plastic. I use the plastic sheet protectors from the stationery store. The steal is so quick, you'll surprise yourself. The birds almost come out by themselves. It takes some getting used to though. Bend over too much and you'll have a true barehand production.
Message: Posted by: g0thike (Jul 29, 2003 01:38PM)
Anyone use loop connect. If so what are the pro's and con's?

Message: Posted by: DaveWomach (Jul 29, 2003 11:34PM)
Thanks! Glad you liked the video! :dancing:

What do you mean by loop connect? I use Satin Tape, and have had great success with it... another option is velcro, but I found that my loops got pulled in through the velcro, and into my jacket... lost for ever. :bawl: I've had to skip my dove split before, because of that.

Dan Sperry has the best loop holders. He shared them with me a while back in Las Vegas... I'm not sure if he'd like me to share them or not though. Please check with him if you're interested! Very good idea he has. http://www.DanSperry.com
Message: Posted by: Dave Scribner (Jul 30, 2003 04:36AM)
Dave, loop connect is the term "Ice" McDonald uses for his loop holders. It's basically a velcro tab.
I've never seen Dan Sperry's holders but if you use wire loops, Peter White from P&A silks has an excellent holder. I use them all the time. The loop "cannot" slip back or out of postition. He describes how to make them on his video and lecture notes. They don't work for nylon loops though.
Message: Posted by: DaveWomach (Jul 30, 2003 04:51AM)
Hi Dave,

I'm thinking it could be the same thing that Dan showed me... it may not be his own. Does it involve a bit of wire, running through a hollow tube and bowing out at the ends?

I believe that Dan said he got it from someone, but I can't remember... so I don't want to give away too much, since it's not mine to give away.

When I was using my tux in the show, I had one of these holders on my dove for the split. He always tried to pull his way back, and this kept him from moving too far. I think we might be on the same page...


Message: Posted by: Dave Scribner (Jul 30, 2003 05:11AM)
Yup, you got it. We're talking about the same thing.
Message: Posted by: g0thike (Jul 30, 2003 01:01PM)

Loop connect is the name Ice McDonald gave to his loop holding gimmick. The gimmick is an aerospace, brush bristle, Velcro tab like plastic thing that keeps nylon loops in place and it stops them from moving back. He told me that a few of the top guys like Amos Levokovich (sp) and others use it. It is only $10.00 per tab so it is worth it to buy one just to check it out. I love it myself but I use wire.

He can be reached at:

Ice McDonald
P.O. Box 341034
Los Angeles, CA 90034

Additionally, Where can I get the Peter White from P&A silks excellent wire loop holder? Or lecture notes?

Message: Posted by: Dave Scribner (Jul 30, 2003 02:43PM)
gOthike: FYI: Amos Levkovitch uses scotch tape most of the time. You can order Peter White's notes directly from him at http://www.pasilks.com or from Denny and Lee and http://www.Dennymagic.com.
Message: Posted by: Xavier (Nov 30, 2010 06:57AM)
Sticky tape has always worked for me. Just a small tab will do to hold the wire in place.

You can also get great wire from bead shops that is used to make jewlery. It comes in almost every colour to match any costume.

Also, you can use a small silk wrapped around the dove and closed with a small tab of sticky tape. This is great for a one handed production and has saved the day when I left my harn***** at home.

All these ideas can be found in Ian Adair's Encyc. of Dove Magic. A must buy for anyone thinking of working with doves IMO.
Message: Posted by: Bob Sanders (Nov 30, 2010 12:25PM)
The pockets I use are flat on one side and pleated on the other. They don't wrinkle the coat and flatten when the load is removed.

Catch me in a coat (almost anywhere) and I can show you.

Bob Sanders
Magic By Sander