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Topic: Magic Cup sizes categorization nomenclature with examples
Message: Posted by: Magic.J.Manuel (Feb 24, 2011 06:05PM)
While the three general sizes are generally accepted, there are some important restrictions resulting in the small variety within these catagories so I found it helpful to determine more precisely some subcategories, like, does the mini cup load a golf ball or not.

General Size categories;
Mini: <2”(golf ball),
Standard: 2”-3”,
Jumbo: >3”(baseball)

Name Inside Diameter Example loads Maker:cups
Thimble Less than Ύ inch peas
Micro Ύ - 1” grapes, working balls MM: brass-combo
Mini 1 – 1.5" cherries RNT2:Mini-Monte,
Golf 1.75 – 2” Golf ball RNT2: Mini-PF, GA: golf
Midi 2” – 2.25” hand ball JR: midi
Close up 2.25” - 2.5” Billiard ball RNT2: Monte,
Paul Fox 2.5 – 2.75” Lacrosse ball RNT2:Foxy 2.5,Sisti,Sherwood
Tennis 2.75 - 3” Tennis ball JR: standard, RNT2: Trad
Street /stage 3-3.25” Baseball JR:jumbo,GA:babes,GA:Animals
Lg Street 3.5” Lg orange GA:Gazzo,
Chick Cups > 3.5”(taller) baby birds Galli-Galli, RNT2:chick
Jumbo ? Van Donkkum, Morrissey

RNT2:Rings and Things II; PF:Paul Fox; JR:James Riser; GA:Gary“Animal”; MM:Magic Makers;

These are just some examples of cups and not meant as an endorsement of any maker.
All of the makers make or have made too many various other varieties to list here.

So here is a stab at putting maybe too much detail into the subject.

It has also been noted that the name of the cup is not just a factor of its size, but also function and history.

I created this list from memory, and do not claim any authority other than I do own most of the cups on the list, It is intended as a quick reference for people interested in the varity of cups available either new or often on an auction.

Message: Posted by: fortasse (Feb 24, 2011 07:41PM)
Not sure you really need all these categories. For example, the difference between your "lg. Street" and "Chick" seems very slight. These two could probably be combined into a single category. Ditto your "midi" and your "close-up" cups.

Message: Posted by: Dave V (Feb 25, 2011 12:34AM)
There's usually a significant difference in looks between LG Street and Chick. Chick cups are typically quite taller. My thoughts were sort of like the McDonalds drinks getting larger and larger. A "Medium Drink" seems to be what we used to call a "Large."

I'd like to see "Standard" cups around the Tennis Ball size range. Or, we just name them after the sports ball that fits.

Posted: Feb 25, 2011 1:41am
We would have:

That would pretty much cover the generally available load sizes without getting into specifics. We could always describe them based on that. "Takes a Golf ball with room to spare, but not a Racquet ball..."
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Feb 25, 2011 01:55AM)
@J. Manuel:

Morrissey only makes one jumbo cup. That's their Mega cup. The rest of their cups are much smaller. Their only copper jumbos were prototypes.

Van Dokkum (please get the spelling right on this) makes seven different sizes of cups, ranging from his micro cup to his monster cup.

Neither Rings and Things nor RnT II EVER made a cup called the Monte cup. The cup was designed by Harry [b]MONTI[/b]

Normal tennis balls are not 3" in diameter. They are 2.575" to 2.700" in diameter, according to the ITF regulations.

Sherwood cups were built SPECIFICALLY to take a tennis ball.

Paul Fox cups will not take a 2.75" ball. The Paul Fox design actually refers to a shape. Genuine Paul Fox cups will take a ball that is just barely over 2.47" in diameter. This is the lower limit of the size of a regulation lacrosse ball.

The early street cups were used in the 19th century, and were not very large. They were rather tall, though, about 4 1/2" or so tall. They had narrow saddles to make the loads appear to be much larger than they actually were.

Cups made to take chick loads vary from the Bertram Cups, which were the inspiration for the Phoenix Cups (or for the cups that inspired the Phoenix Cups). These were very heavy copper cups, which Ross Bertram designed so the chicks couldn't move the cups around.

Danny Dew's chick cups and stage cups were the same size as far as the load sizes were concerned. The saddle of the stage cups was narrower than the saddle of the chick cups. This was to display the final load better.

If you are going to construct a cup nomenclature built around load sizes, etc., please spell the names of the manufacturers correctly and get the size of the balls the various cups take correct. And make sure that you really understand the historical background of all of these.

In other words, don't just go making things up.
Message: Posted by: Magic.J.Manuel (Feb 25, 2011 09:17AM)
Thanks for the feedback, I agree that the sports balls categories would provide a good simplified scheme, but I was also trying to include the names that are being used.

I did not make up these various names, but I am trying to help others understand them.

I also know that some of the dimensions were skewed to the large size. I understand Mr. Sherwood has recently adjusted his design to allow a cup with a tennis ball to fully sit flat so I agree that it should be in the larger class size.

As I said companies like Morrissey and Van Dokkum (sorry about the misspelling above) make many other types of cups, but they are the only ones that I know of that make any extra-large, quart size, cups.

When I purchased my first cups they were referred to as "The Rings and Things Copper Cups" as far as I know. Currently they are similar to the current RNT2 Monti cups.

I do not think that I am making this information up as much as trying to document what is already in use. Since I did most of it from memory, I expected some errors and do appreciate everyone's contributions.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Feb 25, 2011 02:22PM)
If you aren't making it up, you are certainly misquoting it. With the exception of his chop cups, ALL the Sherwood cups have ALWAYS accepted a tennis ball. The adjustment in size was in the chop cups.

Brett built his cups around the tennis ball.

Rings and Things has ALWAYS referred to that cup design as the Monti cup. They had a big splash announcement about them in the various magic magazines in the early 1970s. Harry Monti was a partner in Rings and Things at the time. He designed those cups. If some dealer sold you those cups as Rings and Things copper cups, then it was the dealer who erred and not Rings and Things.

Your mention of the Morrissey cups under jumbos is really confusing, because if people who are unfamiliar with the cups read your list, they will assume that Morrissey cups are generally large, which they are not. Morrissey makes ONE jumbo cup. That's it. Period.

Ickle Pickle made the LeJumbo cup which is much larger, anyway.

Why do this from memory when it is so easy to check this information on the internet?

Basically, your list is obfuscatory.

For example, how large is a golf ball? Do you really know? Obviously, you don't. So, you are making this up.
Message: Posted by: kentfgunn (Feb 25, 2011 03:28PM)
This is why I never talk about cup design here. I might ask Bill a question now and again. He's the expert on the cups and balls. He's the go-to guy on historical references and terminology.

Bill, I've seen the Cups presentation that year you let me share your booth in the dealers room. You make your wonderful collection available to anyone who can remember a couple of obscure words. Have you considered a paper and ink history or catalog of the cups?

As an aside,

The last couple of posts made these two takes on expertise come to mind.

An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made, in a narrow field.
Niels Bohr

In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's mind there are few.
Shunryu Suzuki

Message: Posted by: Magic.J.Manuel (Feb 25, 2011 03:58PM)
British or American? 1.68 inch, hence a golf-ball cup must be larger than the ball to allow loading. So I picked 1.75 inch as a minimum size for the "Golf Size" cup allowing for a smaller class of "Mini Cup" like the Mini-Monti.

Another correction noted that it was the Ickle Pickle LeJumbo I was thinking were made by Morrissey. Not to imply that it is the only thing Ickle Pickle makes either.

Ok, I will try and take a PC point of view when interpreting the feedback so far. I did make up the list on a snowed in afternoon, and did not do much research. I thought it would be a fun thread and maybe something useful could come out of it. I did want it to be a buyer’s guide of sorts without getting into the politics between the dealers, but it made the list too complex.
So I just listed the cup’s inside diameter , name and loads.

I.D. Name--- Example loads
<.75” Thimble--- peas
.75 - 1” Micro--- grapes, working balls
1 – 1.5" Mini--- cherries
1.75 – 2” Golf--- Golf ball
2 - 2.5” Close up--- Billiard ball
2.5 – 2.75” Standard--- Lacrosse ball
2.75 - 3” Tennis ---Tennis ball
3-3.5” Street /stage--- Baseball
>3.5” Chick Cups ----Lg orange, baby birds
Jumbo ?

Sometimes less is more.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Feb 25, 2011 06:22PM)
It is not the size, but the weight that makes a chick cup a chick cup.

Posted: Feb 25, 2011 9:15pm
It only takes a few thousandths of an inch clearance to allow a ball to fit into a cup.

The Michael Lee Millenium Cup is rather large. It is still manufactured on a short run basis.

I would suggest that when you start classifying cups by size referring to the manufacturer, that you specify which model of cup you are referring to.

I would also suggest that you check with my web site to see what takes what. This will reduce the amount of "ex posteriori" knowledge.