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Topic: Capitalism America - A Love Story!
Message: Posted by: McAllisterMagic (Mar 5, 2011 11:14AM)
Great film, anyone else enjoy this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeROnVUADj0
Message: Posted by: gdw (Mar 5, 2011 11:39AM)
Problem is, it was not about capitalism, but corporatism/crony capitalism.
Message: Posted by: Payne (Mar 5, 2011 12:42PM)
[quote]
On 2011-03-05 12:39, gdw wrote:
Problem is, it was not about capitalism, but corporatism/crony capitalism.
[/quote]

Unfortunately we have seen throughout history that unchecked capitalism always degrades into corporatism and crony capitalism. The bigger fish eat the smaller fish and eventually dominate their markets. It's how capitalism works. This is why regulation and guidelines are required to maintain a level playing field and in theory prevent the establishment of monopolies and unfair business practices.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 5, 2011 12:48PM)
Love the absolutes LOL.

Let me just guess Payne. You agree with Michael Moore who thinks that companies money is a "national resource" right?
Message: Posted by: gdw (Mar 5, 2011 12:50PM)
[quote]
On 2011-03-05 13:42, Payne wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-03-05 12:39, gdw wrote:
Problem is, it was not about capitalism, but corporatism/crony capitalism.
[/quote]

Unfortunately we have seen throughout history that unchecked capitalism always degrades into corporatism and crony capitalism. The bigger fish eat the smaller fish and eventually dominate their markets. It's how capitalism works. This is why regulation and guidelines are required to maintain a level playing field and in theory prevent the establishment of monopolies and unfair business practices.
[/quote]

We have NEVER seen unchecked capitalism Payne.

"It's how capitalism works. This is why regulation and guidelines are required to maintain a level playing field and in theory prevent the establishment of monopolies and unfair business practices."

I would say it is EXACTLY the opposite. The ONLY way monopolies and unfair practices have come about, and crony capitalism is WITH the collusion of business and state. It is all, undeniably, directly connected to that collusion.
Message: Posted by: RS1963 (Mar 5, 2011 12:51PM)
Moore is an idiot.
Message: Posted by: gdw (Mar 5, 2011 01:01PM)
Moore himself admitted that what he covered in the film was not capitalism.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Mar 5, 2011 02:53PM)
Moore made some good points, but I don't think it's his best film.
Message: Posted by: gdw (Mar 5, 2011 04:10PM)
[quote]
On 2011-03-05 15:53, landmark wrote:
Moore made some good points, but I don't think it's his best film.
[/quote]

Actually, he does make some good points. He also makes some bad conclusions, and frames his points around something he mislabels. This is a very underhanded thing, though I am sure he doe it with good intentions.

The problem is that his attacks against "capitalism" end up dragging along negative views of what an actual free market would be.
Message: Posted by: Payne (Mar 5, 2011 04:21PM)
[quote]
On 2011-03-05 13:50, gdw wrote:

We have NEVER seen unchecked capitalism Payne.

[/quote]

I would say the business world of the late 18th, 19th and early 20th century was pretty much unchecked. There were no protection for the workers, no set standards of quality of products, no environmental standards needed to be met. Scarcely a regulation for the running of a business existed. So yes, I'd say we have pretty much seen what unchecked capitalism leads to. There actually is a reason we developed regulations and standards for businesses to operate under.

[quote]

I would say it is EXACTLY the opposite. The ONLY way monopolies and unfair practices have come about, and crony capitalism is WITH the collusion of business and state. It is all, undeniably, directly connected to that collusion.
[/quote]

I doubt capitalism would work without a State. You need a social organizational system of some sort for it to function. But lacking one the corporations would eventually become the state.
Message: Posted by: gdw (Mar 5, 2011 06:08PM)
"You need a social organizational system of some sort for it to function. But lacking one the corporations would eventually become the state."

I think both of these are very flawed statements, though very understandable presumptions.

A "social organization structure" doesn't have to be a centralized coercive force like we have now. As for the corporations becoming the state, well, yeah, the corporations became so much more powerful in somalia after their government fell. The corporations were/are some of the most vocal and active in trying to get some for of government back in place because they simply do NOT have anywhere near the same power, and have had to actually be accountable to their customers, and have had to maintain a higher quality than they did when they could hide behind regulation and corporatism.
Message: Posted by: critter (Mar 5, 2011 06:28PM)
I enjoy Moore's films, with the knowledge that what he shows is one side of a ginormous polygon. I know that he deliberately edits his interviews and footage in ways that make the situations look much different than how they really happened.
He does show intersting information presented in an interesting way, but I encourage folks to fact check it before going on a tear about all the new stuff that they "know" just 'cause they saw one of his "documentaries."
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Mar 5, 2011 06:29PM)
Dang kid, you are really terrified by this 'force' you believe is out there. I feel bad for you.
Message: Posted by: gdw (Mar 5, 2011 09:59PM)
[quote]
On 2011-03-05 19:29, MagicSanta wrote:
Dang kid, you are really terrified by this 'force' you believe is out there. I feel bad for you.
[/quote]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpsBM1rmx-M&feature=player_embedded
Message: Posted by: Ken Northridge (Mar 5, 2011 10:21PM)
[quote]
On 2011-03-05 17:21, Payne wrote:
I would say the business world of the late 18th, 19th and early 20th century was pretty much unchecked. There were no protection for the workers, no set standards of quality of products, no environmental standards needed to be met. Scarcely a regulation for the running of a business existed. So yes, I'd say we have pretty much seen what unchecked capitalism leads to. [/quote]

And your point is??? I think it lead to the USA being the world model for prosperity! Yes, there are some blemishes, but for the most part, Capitalism works for [i]almost[/i] everyone!
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Mar 5, 2011 10:58PM)
I really cannot see how anyone would be for socialism in this day and age. It doesn't work, it is a failed system. China, the great last stand of communism, is succeeding due to capitalism and I bet they are torn between loving it and hating it.
Message: Posted by: RS1963 (Mar 5, 2011 11:36PM)
True santa but it seems that the U.S. is trying to move more towards socialism at a rather fast clip. True it may have slowed some due to the Republicans taking some power back but still there are too many around that would love to put into effect more socialistic things into our daily lives then there are now.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 6, 2011 09:25AM)
Yea but the little toe in the water dealio that has been the past few years has set the idea back for some time. WAIT till the health care bill comes due and see how many want to keep going at it.

There are some like Payne who are ideologues who won't be persuaded no matter what evidence is mounted up, then cherry pick statistics and quote mine to prove some unprovable point. The simple fact is that it is a failed system and it is always doomed to fail.

Put any name you want on it, but America has been a world leader for quite some time. Will it last? Who knows. My first thought is no. Nothing lasts forever. Are her best days behind us? I personally doubt it.

Norman Thomas once said that the American people would never vote for socialism, but under the name of liberalism they would adopt every fragment of the socialist program. This was a guy who ran for president 6 times, and said it sometime like 1926 or so. He has been sort of proven right hasn't he?

And why not? I mean the way it is all so cleverly framed. "We are for the worker!". Yea great but how do you go about it? Clean water, the environment and yada yada yada it is all framed so nice, but look at the implimentation and what is given up to see why it is dangerous. They count on people only listening to sound bites and not looking any further into facts.

I think things will swing back now, but who knows?
Message: Posted by: gdw (Mar 6, 2011 10:22AM)
[quote]
On 2011-03-06 10:25, Dannydoyle wrote:
Yea but the little toe in the water dealio that has been the past few years has set the idea back for some time. WAIT till the health care bill comes due and see how many want to keep going at it.

There are some like Payne who are ideologues who won't be persuaded no matter what evidence is mounted up, then cherry pick statistics and quote mine to prove some unprovable point. The simple fact is that it is a failed system and it is always doomed to fail.

Put any name you want on it, but America has been a world leader for quite some time. Will it last? Who knows. My first thought is no. Nothing lasts forever. Are her best days behind us? I personally doubt it.

Norman Thomas once said that the American people would never vote for socialism, but under the name of liberalism they would adopt every fragment of the socialist program. This was a guy who ran for president 6 times, and said it sometime like 1926 or so. He has been sort of proven right hasn't he?

And why not? I mean the way it is all so cleverly framed. "We are for the worker!". Yea great but how do you go about it? Clean water, the environment and yada yada yada it is all framed so nice, but look at the implimentation and what is given up to see why it is dangerous. They count on people only listening to sound bites and not looking any further into facts.

I think things will swing back now, but who knows?
[/quote]

In spite of his opinions of me, I quite often agree with Danny.

The only thing I don't agree with here is that it will really swing back. Maybe from the "left" implemented socialism, but the right socializes plenty themselves.
Even if it does swing back from that, I don't think america, or economies in general, including canada ;) will be getting much better anytime soon.
Message: Posted by: gdw (Mar 6, 2011 06:51PM)
You know, I just found out Canadian Bacon was directed by Moore as well. In spite of that, I still rather enjoy that film.

But man, lines like this:
"U.S. President: Jesus, is this the best you could come up with? What about, ya know, international terrorism? General Panzer: Well, sir, we're not going to re-open missile factories just to fight some creeps running around in exploding rental cars, are we, sir?"

Were not exactly meant to be ironic at the time.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Mar 6, 2011 07:07PM)
[quote]
On 2011-03-05 23:58, MagicSanta wrote:
I really cannot see how anyone would be for socialism in this day and age. It doesn't work, it is a failed system. China, the great last stand of communism, is succeeding due to capitalism and I bet they are torn between loving it and hating it.
[/quote]

The last great stand of communism isn't China; it's American college campuses. It's most ardent supporters have one unifying characteristic - They haven't lived under it.
Message: Posted by: critter (Mar 6, 2011 07:11PM)
Didn't you go to college? That's it! You're on my list now, red!
[img]http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/btb/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/mccarthy.jpg[/img]
Message: Posted by: tommy (Mar 6, 2011 08:15PM)
Money is democracy. Them that have the gold make the rules.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 6, 2011 08:44PM)
[quote]
On 2011-03-06 11:22, gdw wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-03-06 10:25, Dannydoyle wrote:
Yea but the little toe in the water dealio that has been the past few years has set the idea back for some time. WAIT till the health care bill comes due and see how many want to keep going at it.

There are some like Payne who are ideologues who won't be persuaded no matter what evidence is mounted up, then cherry pick statistics and quote mine to prove some unprovable point. The simple fact is that it is a failed system and it is always doomed to fail.

Put any name you want on it, but America has been a world leader for quite some time. Will it last? Who knows. My first thought is no. Nothing lasts forever. Are her best days behind us? I personally doubt it.

Norman Thomas once said that the American people would never vote for socialism, but under the name of liberalism they would adopt every fragment of the socialist program. This was a guy who ran for president 6 times, and said it sometime like 1926 or so. He has been sort of proven right hasn't he?

And why not? I mean the way it is all so cleverly framed. "We are for the worker!". Yea great but how do you go about it? Clean water, the environment and yada yada yada it is all framed so nice, but look at the implimentation and what is given up to see why it is dangerous. They count on people only listening to sound bites and not looking any further into facts.

I think things will swing back now, but who knows?
[/quote]

In spite of his opinions of me, I quite often agree with Danny.

The only thing I don't agree with here is that it will really swing back. Maybe from the "left" implemented socialism, but the right socializes plenty themselves.
Even if it does swing back from that, I don't think america, or economies in general, including canada ;) will be getting much better anytime soon.
[/quote]

Yea I have to agree mostly that when in power in too large of numbers, each side right/left does tend to try to "socalize" (for lack of a better term.) as much as they can.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Mar 6, 2011 09:11PM)
[quote]
On 2011-03-06 20:07, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-03-05 23:58, MagicSanta wrote:
I really cannot see how anyone would be for socialism in this day and age. It doesn't work, it is a failed system. China, the great last stand of communism, is succeeding due to capitalism and I bet they are torn between loving it and hating it.
[/quote]

The last great stand of communism isn't China; it's American college campuses. It's most ardent supporters have one unifying characteristic - They haven't lived under it.
[/quote]
I guess you could say the exact same thing about democracy. ;)
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Mar 6, 2011 09:22PM)
Actually since democracies and republics have a far better track record than the socialist or their big brother the communist then I guess it has worked out better.
Message: Posted by: critter (Mar 6, 2011 09:27PM)
I'm gonna' go on the record as saying that I love America. Are we perfect? Nothing is, but we're a *** good country with a lot of *** good people.
And we have the world's largest frying pan so **** you, France.
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Mar 6, 2011 09:30PM)
That was beautiful Critter. Be nice to France, someone may accuse you of being anti Islam.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Mar 6, 2011 09:35PM)
[quote]
On 2011-03-06 22:30, MagicSanta wrote:
That was beautiful Critter. Be nice to France, someone may accuse you of being anti Islam.
[/quote]

Has France declared itself an Islamic republic?
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Mar 6, 2011 09:42PM)
Yes they have! For 20 years now. Sharia law is going to be the new EU policy soon.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Mar 6, 2011 10:24PM)
[quote]
On 2011-03-06 22:22, MagicSanta wrote:
Actually since democracies and republics have a far better track record than the socialist or their big brother the communist then I guess it has worked out better.
[/quote]
Echoing Lobowolf's original line, I was implying that democracy's supporters have never lived under it either, 'cause it doesn't exist as a governmental form.
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Mar 6, 2011 10:29PM)
That is true....see folks? Communication is the key....
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 6, 2011 10:54PM)
Yea we are a represenative republic. Many confuse that with true democracy. I think the last true democratic vote was "Crucify Christ".

Not trying to start a religious war, just showing what true democracy is. (No it is not a perfect example, and maybe not actually the last one.)