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Topic: Cone and ball presentation
Message: Posted by: conjurormatt (Mar 26, 2011 10:36PM)
For those of you looking for a way to justify your cone in a cone and ball effect, see the following link. It turns out that during the 1900's a version of the cup and ball game was played with a spring loaded cone:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Victorian-Era-Paper-Mache-Cup-and-Ball-Toss-Game-w-Box-/270724794404?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f08748824#ht_500wt_1156

this fact might be useful for scripting the routine.

Cheers!
Matt M.
Message: Posted by: Harry Murphy (Mar 27, 2011 06:38AM)
Thanks! You're right this can give motivation to the story line.
Message: Posted by: jazzy snazzy (Mar 27, 2011 07:29AM)
Good catch Matt.
Wonder if that game ever made it to the U.S.?

I'm still searching for the best ball/cone size ratio.
1 3/4 Fakinis are next. Billiard balls are a bit too big for me.
Message: Posted by: Mark Ross (Mar 27, 2011 08:16AM)
In his book "Vortex", Tom Stone says he uses 1 3/4" superballs, or similar, and tells how to paint them any color you would want. He, also, found billiard balls a bit large, and harder to keep from flashing. I recommend the leather cone from Ambitious Card.

Mark
Message: Posted by: jazzy snazzy (Mar 27, 2011 08:31AM)
Thanks, Mark. Vortex just arrived in the mail. Great book!
Also, George Millward produced a DVD on the effect. Unfortunately it is no longer available from Norm Nielsen.
I've heard that this DVD has a great wand spin tutorial as well.
Message: Posted by: Mark Ross (Mar 27, 2011 01:09PM)
Here is contact information for George Millward, who I believe has the DVD still available, perhaps in limited quantities.

"I have both the dvd and printed instructions if you want them send $3O.OO to George Millward 4735 Deckow Ln 2O Las Vegas Nv 89169" His e-mail is ghmmagic@hotmail.com

Mark
Message: Posted by: jazzy snazzy (Mar 27, 2011 02:45PM)
Thank you so much Mark!
My long search may be over.
His great Youtube clip of this is no longer available.
Wish everyone could see it.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Mar 28, 2011 07:47AM)
Aldo has a complete set for $10, and a DVD for the reading impaired.

Both are excellent but use a cardboard cone --after all, wasn't the original a Thread Spool?
Message: Posted by: Thomas Wayne (Mar 28, 2011 11:32AM)
[quote]
On 2011-03-27 08:29, jazzy snazzy wrote:
I'm still searching for the best ball/cone size ratio.
1 3/4 Fakinis are next. Billiard balls are a bit too big for me.
[/quote]

Regarding pool balls, there are MANY different sizes available, if you're willing to do a little looking around. For example, Mueller offers these:

http://www.poolndarts.com/p-3590-Miniature-Pool-Balls/

Those in the above ad are 1 1/2 inches diameter. I personally have seen them range from 2 1/4 inch down to marble size.

TW
Message: Posted by: jazzy snazzy (Mar 28, 2011 04:11PM)
Thanks gentlemen. I'll try those as well.

An 18" Slydini silk seems to work well for this since it is more opaque.
My cone came from Frank's.
Those cardboard cones are available at Michael's craft store.
Message: Posted by: Bapu (Mar 31, 2011 02:15PM)
[quote]
On 2011-03-27 08:29, jazzy snazzy wrote:
Good catch Matt.
Wonder if that game ever made it to the U.S.?

I'm still searching for the best ball/cone size ratio.
1 3/4 Fakinis are next. Billiard balls are a bit too big for me.
[/quote]

Hey Jazzy, vintage (and new) snooker balls (sets and singles and in various sizes) appear regularly on the big auction site. Two inch balls seems the most common size but 1 3/4 inch balls sometimes appear. Most often the sellers are in the UK or Australia so shipping to the USA is high, but if you are patient they turn up in the US as well. I've been after some just to try out. You can usually find decent sets for around twenty buck plus shipping. A set consists of ten red balls, one white ball, and six colored balls. Plenty of balls to play with for not much cash outlay. Sweet.
Message: Posted by: Nate Green (Apr 10, 2011 10:04PM)
Matt,

It was great that you found this on ebay. Does anyone know if the "Paper Mache Cup and Ball Toss Game" went by another name in the Victorian era?
-Nate
Message: Posted by: Thomas Wayne (Apr 11, 2011 10:35AM)
[quote]
On 2011-04-10 23:04, Nate Green wrote:
Matt,

It was great that you found this on ebay. Does anyone know if the "Paper Mache Cup and Ball Toss Game" went by another name in the Victorian era?
-Nate
[/quote]

Yes. The game was called "Wiffling the Blodgett".

TW
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Apr 11, 2011 11:07AM)
[quote]
On 2011-03-27 09:16, Mark Ross wrote:
In his book "Vortex", Tom Stone says he uses 1 3/4" superballs, or similar, and tells how to paint them any color you would want. He, also, found billiard balls a bit large, and harder to keep from flashing. I recommend the leather cone from Ambitious Card.

Mark
[/quote]
Vernon used a larger ball than that. I prefer a 2 1/8" snooker ball, but a 2" ball also works nicely.
[quote]
On 2011-03-28 08:47, funsway wrote:
Aldo has a complete set for $10, and a DVD for the reading impaired.

Both are excellent but use a cardboard cone --after all, wasn't the original a Thread Spool?
[/quote]
That depends on what you consider the original. Those conical cardboard thread spools aren't really as good as a leather cone. The thickness of the cardboard actually interferes with the moves.
Message: Posted by: Nate Green (Apr 11, 2011 10:08PM)
Thomas,

Thank you for the info. Where can I find more information about this game? I tried to look it up with no luck.
-Nate
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Apr 12, 2011 02:17PM)
I don't think you will find it on Google or Bing.

You might find it here http://tinyurl.com/4yk9kza
Message: Posted by: Nate Green (Apr 12, 2011 06:08PM)
Thanks for the tip, Bill. Unfortunately, no luck!
Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (Apr 20, 2011 11:26AM)
Just found this web site that has Paper Mache Cones, in several sizes. I know leather is best to use.
http://www.thecraftshoppe.com/papermache.html
[quote]
On 2011-03-26 23:36, conjurormatt wrote:
For those of you looking for a way to justify your cone in a cone and ball effect, see the following link. It turns out that during the 1900's a version of the cup and ball game was played with a spring loaded cone:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Victorian-Era-Paper-Mache-Cup-and-Ball-Toss-Game-w-Box-/270724794404?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f08748824#ht_500wt_1156

this fact might be useful for scripting the routine.

Cheers!
Matt M.
[/quote]
This actually is a game/toy for children still sold today for children summer fun. They come in large plastic basket type cones with a trigger that shoots the balls out. It is just another form of catch.

I think a lengthy explaination would slow down the magic to much. If you must justify the cone, just say, I bought this cone at the local craft store, and at the checkout counter, I picked up these balls as well. Let me show you some magic with these simple items. Continue with the effect.
[quote]
On 2011-03-27 14:09, Mark Ross wrote:
Here is contact information for George Millward, who I believe has the DVD still available, perhaps in limited quantities.

"I have both the dvd and printed instructions if you want them send $3O.OO to George Millward 4735 Deckow Ln 2O Las Vegas Nv 89169" His e-mail is ghmmagic@hotmail.com

Mark
[/quote]
Thanks Mark for the info, good thing I emailed George Millward, as his address has changed from the one you posted, still the same city. He said the price is $15.00 postage included. Sending a check off today.

I contacted Nielsen Magic and they said they could not get the DVD and did not know how to contact George and that he was performing someplace. George did respond to my email with a mobile device, so this may be somewhat true.

Posted: Apr 23, 2011 4:27pm
Just received the Paper Mache Cones today. They look good for cardboard wrapped in brown paper. Now to decide how to cover them. I was thinking black contact plastic, or I have some leather left offer from an old project. I should have bought more then just 2 as I see I will have to make several to see what looks best.

Paint is an option, if the paper is primed with 'Bin' primer 1st. I have some 2" wood balls I got at the wood working shop. Now all the detail work.
Message: Posted by: bunkyhenry (Apr 25, 2011 03:44PM)
I couldn't resist. I have 5 original Hubley cones. He is the "Cone Genius"
Unfortunately his diabetes affected his eyesight and he retired from the work.
2 plain and three magic cones.

Posted: Apr 25, 2011 4:54pm
http://s443.photobucket.com/albums/qq151/chopsueycandy/Hubley/

Posted: Apr 25, 2011 4:55pm
Nice?

Posted: Apr 25, 2011 5:12pm
There is some meaning to the designs...here is John Hubleys letter

I'm off to Martha's Vineyard this weekend for a company party (Fri to Sun), but I'll doodle some designs on the boat and cut next week.

Yes, the letters are runes, Mordac (Norse that settled in Slavic lands in far Eastern Europe around 900 BCE) alphabet with my best estimate of the pre-Cyrillic spelling of a Slovak word "kla'klam" that essentially means "almost there, but not quite, maybe tomorrow, for sure by the next day, perhaps." I think it was actually somebody's name at one time (like Murphy's Law). My Grandmother used it to describe the way a little boy is always just about to do his chores, but never quite gets to it on his own. I stretched the idiom to mean "illusion" The literal Slovak words for illusion are ilu'zia, or prelud, or mylna' predstava, or iluzivny depending upon how it is being used, which of course as a uni-lingual, third generation (on that side) American, I have no idea which is correct when describing a magic trick. I used the idiom because in the Mordac tradition, it is supposed to be a "power" word.
Message: Posted by: Mark Ross (Apr 25, 2011 04:32PM)
Very nice indeed.

Mark
Message: Posted by: Bapu (May 3, 2011 03:38PM)
[quote]
On 2011-04-11 12:09, Bill Palmer wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-03-28 08:47, funsway wrote:
Aldo has a complete set for $10, and a DVD for the reading impaired.

Both are excellent but use a cardboard cone --after all, wasn't the original a Thread Spool?
[/quote]

That depends on what you consider the original. Those conical cardboard thread spools aren't really as good as a leather cone. The thickness of the cardboard actually interferes with the moves.
[/quote]

Now I stumble across this post, after I just "won" a couple of the cardboard cones on the big auction site! Oh well, less than three bucks with shipping. Where have all the old hippie leather crafters gone now that I really need one?
Message: Posted by: Dave V (May 5, 2011 12:22AM)
I think there are at least two people making leather cones. Frank Starsini is one of them. George Millward is another.
Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (May 5, 2011 01:25PM)
Found a Ball and Cone from East Coast Magic for only $42.50 plus postage. Looks like it may have come from Mak Magic, but for a complete outfit that is a great price. I emailed the store and it comes with 2" balls. See picture below.
---------------------------------------------------
As for paper cones, I have gotten paper mache cones from this site:
http://www.thecraftshoppe.com/papermache.html

I purchased the 7"x3" cone and just today received the 9.5" Fiberboard cone. They give fast service and both orders were under $5 each.

The paper mache is a stiff chipboard material, about 1/16" thick, the Fiberboard is almost an 1/8" thick. I bought the Fiberboard because when I cut the top on the chipboard so the ball can set on top, it got a little short looking.
----------------------------------------------------
If any of you are interested I started a topic on this subject in stage manipulation section of the Café here: http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=414173&forum=10&16&start=0#15

It seems that this was originally published in "The Dai Vernon Book of Magic" as a close-up trick, even though it was never performed in public as such a trick. Dai Vernon did lecture in the 1950's on this subject from his lecture notes of that time, but I find presentation of most lectures are not really close-up demonstrations. Do to the open left angle side of the trick, I do not see how this could really be considered a close-up trick in the full sense of the word. Vernon's notes are just that, an outline of the effect. Ganson does not go into the use of the effect as a close-up trick in the book.

Having said that, it may be a "retension of vision" vanish from that side if the move is expertly executed.

If someone has mastered this effect, it would be good to hear your experiences performing this excellent effect in a close-up environment. Anyone!!
Message: Posted by: jazzy snazzy (May 5, 2011 02:40PM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-05 14:25, wmhegbli wrote:
If someone has mastered this effect, it would be good to hear your experiences performing this excellent effect in a close-up environment. Anyone!!
[/quote]
Nooooo, not yet. This one will take a while.
Good to see you're so excited about this.
Message: Posted by: Carnac (Jul 6, 2011 08:07PM)
If you're looking for the George Millward DVD on Ball and Cone, try Denny's. I've seen it on his site. Very pretty routine....