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Topic: It bothers me
Message: Posted by: Jim Oliver (Apr 9, 2011 12:36PM)
Hello fellow card gurus.

I have been pondering over this problem for a little while and now I have to spew!
Perhaps some of the old timers will agree with me and perhaps some of the younger blood will not, but here's my issue.

There is a magic shop within a 40 minute drive of where I live. I have been there a number of times. Every time I am there the young guys that are behind the counter are usually doing a bunch of fancy cutting of the cards in their hands. After about 30 seconds of this I am ready to fall asleep because it is like watching someone juggle.

Now, I know that these guys can do some card magic, but maybe not very much, but that isn't the problem.
When I talk to them about books on magic, they don't know [b]anything[/b], because they only watch DVD's.

I asked one of them if they know who Juan Tamariz is and he said "I think so?" I'm not sure if he really did or not.

I asked him if he new who Vernon was and he said "He was that old guy, right?" Apparently he doesn't study Vernon.

I asked him if he knew who Ed Marlo was and he said "No." I almost passed out!

Now I know that there are some very nice DVD's out there, but I feel that these guys are missing the boat when it comes to learning the psychology of magic that really is only found in books, along with the history of where it is that their craft came from. It was NOT invented by D&D or any of these others that are all over You Tube land.

They are missing the boat in my opinion.

Jim Oliver
Message: Posted by: Maitre D (Apr 9, 2011 12:43PM)
Welcome to the new generation.

My best advice is... Get used to it.
Message: Posted by: poonchingyip (Apr 9, 2011 12:48PM)
[quote]
On 2011-04-09 13:43, Maitre D wrote:
Welcome to the new generation.

My best advice is... Get used to it.
[/quote]
lol @ "Welcome to the new generation"
I really agree, as a lot of people DO NOT like to read books nowadays.
(I was one of those people when I just started magic 5 years ago; but now I LOVE books =D)

- Arthur
Message: Posted by: Chris Piercy (Apr 9, 2011 12:51PM)
I completely agree that there are members of 'the new generation' who are completely void of any knowledge or history of our great art but as a magician who would probably be considered as part of the new generation I'd ask that we are not all to be tarred with the same brush as although I learn better from dvds I am well read and know that all modern magicians stand on the shoulders of giants even if some of them don't know it themselves.

I also can't flourish for toffee, I'd much rather put a card in a balloon!
Message: Posted by: WilburrUK (Apr 9, 2011 12:54PM)
You did say "behind" the counter? IE serving? In a magic shop? Advising customers? And they don't know / care about Marlo, Vernon or Tamariz?

Nope, I can't get my head round that.
Message: Posted by: jcigam (Apr 9, 2011 12:56PM)
I guess you could try a little mentoring. Try and subtly let them know how cool it would be to truly understand where their hobby came from. Bring up the point people like Dan and Dave idolize those performers you mentioned (I don't know if this is true or not but you get my point).

Also realize, that most magic shops (besides the owners) are manned by young people who are interested in magic. The shop usually can't afford to pay an adult knowledgeable of magic to stand behind the counter. Of course, this is just my experience.

I have friends that are really good performers but don't know anything about where magic started or how it got to where it is. It's a little frustrating but it takes someone who knows and cares to pass it on.

By the way, I am a juggler and "falling asleep after 30 seconds" seems pretty generous.

Jered
Message: Posted by: caruk (Apr 9, 2011 01:09PM)
[quote]
On 2011-04-09 13:43, Maitre D wrote:
Welcome to the new generation.

My best advice is... Get used to it.
[/quote]

The wonderful thing about this new generation(s) is that it will create more work for us older guys.
They will be cookie cutter copies of all the REAL magicians and have no character of their own.
Those of us from the old school will continue to get work because we know what magic is all about.
And this is because we learned and studied it from books.
Message: Posted by: Jim Oliver (Apr 9, 2011 01:12PM)
Well yes, I can get used to it just like some people can get used to losing an arm or a leg!

But, they don't like to [b]read[/b]. I know that it is a different type of technology, trust me I [b]love[/b] my Tommy Wonder DVD's, and my Ed Marlo and Bill Malone and a few others DVD's.

But I also can't wrap my head around the fact that they [b]don't want to read!!! Period!!![/b]

I used to have some really good magic on VHS tapes and now I can't even watch them.
In fifteen years or so will there still be DVD players around that work? Will I have to replace the irreplaceable with the newer technology?

Guess what? After I am long dead and gone, my great grand children will still be able to read my books, if they still teach people how to read.

Jim
Message: Posted by: diehards2080 (Apr 9, 2011 01:18PM)
No surprise there to tell you the truth. The way I look at it they are losing out. But even Marlo and Vernon has a DVD or two out there.
Message: Posted by: RS1963 (Apr 9, 2011 01:32PM)
For them to know know of Vernon, Marlo, etc. Also shows that they may not even be watching videos where any crediting is done at all. We all know the online magic business's that produce such DVD's and leave a lot of information out.

I don't get the "I don't like to read crowd" They have always been around. I knew magicians that were starting out the same time I did. Some didn't like to read but they had too. Books and learning from other magicians was all we had. There were no videos, internet etc.. back then. The kids read in school or at least some do so the I don't read books is just them being lazy.
Message: Posted by: calebjuggles (Apr 9, 2011 01:55PM)
I personally love reading the books. Even though the vids can be a clearer, Im always a little disapointed at the end.
Message: Posted by: caruk (Apr 9, 2011 02:01PM)
[quote]
On 2011-04-09 14:18, diehards2080 wrote:
No surprise there to tell you the truth. The way I look at it they are loosing out. But even Marlo and Vernon has a DVD or two out there.
[/quote]

I think it is great that these old masters are immortalized on film. This is a good thing.
The bad thing is: I have seen young magicians imitating them word for word, inflection for inflection. They had no character of their own. Mere imitators. Yes, this is part of becoming a great performer. But the "imitation phase" will cripple many young magicians because they learn everything from imitation, not innovation.
Albert Goshman (remember him?) said it best when he stated in his book: "I'm selling ME". An image. Not an imitation.
Message: Posted by: Jim Oliver (Apr 9, 2011 02:01PM)
Something funny that I just have to add is that my son in law said "I bet if you sent them
a text message with all that info in it they would read it!"

JIm
Message: Posted by: KyleMacNeill (Apr 9, 2011 02:13PM)
I'm a young magician, and gladly I'm not into that XCM stuff, I try to follow the classics and get up to notch via crediting. :)
I hope I can be classified as my own variation of the 'new generation', I'm sure I am [b]not[/b] as educated as the old generation was at my age, but I try to [b]now[/b] stay away from turning into just a modern magician...

Kyle
Message: Posted by: caruk (Apr 9, 2011 02:15PM)
Good on you Kyle.
Message: Posted by: J.Warrens (Apr 9, 2011 02:33PM)
My solution to the problem is to show them something mind-blowing. When they ask where it's from, I name the book. Repeat ad nauseum.

Eventually they get it.

Cheers,

J.Warrens
Message: Posted by: KyleMacNeill (Apr 9, 2011 02:34PM)
[quote]
On 2011-04-09 15:15, caruk wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-04-09 15:13, KyleMacNeill wrote:
I'm a young magician, and gladly I'm not into that XCM stuff, I try to follow the classics and get up to notch via crediting. :)
I hope I can be classified as my own variation of the 'new generation', I'm sure I am [b]not[/b] as educated as the old generation was at my age, but I try to [b]now[/b] stay away from turning into just a modern magician...

Kyle
[/quote]
Good on you Kyle.
[/quote]
Thanks Carauk! PM'ed ya.

Kyle
Message: Posted by: Jim Oliver (Apr 9, 2011 02:43PM)
Perhaps it is just me, but I guess I'm not through venting yet.

Here's a true story told to me by the owner of a magic shop in Scottsdale, Arizona a couple of years ago.

He said that a number of years ago when Tony Slydini was still alive, he (Slydini) had come into the magic shop and the owner had a young guy working for him at the time. Well the young guy did not know who Slydini was and proceeded to show him a Linking Ring routine. It was not the best. He rushed it and did not pause at all the right moments, etc.

After he finished he asked Slydini what he thought of his routine. Slydini told him that he should slow down, don't move so fast. People can't appreciate what you are trying to show them because you don't take your time.

Dramatic pause here....

After Slydini left, the young guy turned to the owner of the shop and shrugged his shoulders and said "What does that old guy know about it anyway." And then he ran off to help a customer that had just come in.

Lord help us!

Jim
Message: Posted by: Andrew Zuber (Apr 9, 2011 02:50PM)
I love having the books because they're great resources, and I enjoy my collection. It's great when someone says, "Oh, it's in Tarbell on page 37." I have it right at my fingertips. I also love to read in general - a good book will keep you engrossed for hours.

That said, I [b]hate[/b] learning routines in writing. It is very rare that I can fully make sense of something that's written. Throw in all the pictures and descriptions you want - I'm a visual learner. I want to see it performed, see the move explained, and watch someone do it. It's just how my mind works. I also struggle because even though I'm right handed, I perform backwards to what most descriptions state. If it says "hold the ball with your right hand" I'm probably holding it with the left. I've always been that way, so a description can be confusing because every time I see left/right, in my mind I have to reverse that. On video, it's easier for me to make that change.

However, I can't fathom any student of magic not knowing Vernon, Marlo, Tamariz or some of the other greats. That's not just about books, it's about being involved in the magic community and talking to other performers. If these guys really didn't know any of the people you mentioned, their problem isn't simply books versus DVDs. Their problem is they don't truly care about magic.
Message: Posted by: Tom Fenton (Apr 9, 2011 03:13PM)
Jim,

Your story reminded me of a friend of mine who was learning guitar.
He was in his local bar and the barman asked him how he was progressing with the guitar.
He replied that he was having trouble with barr chords.

The fellow next to him at the bar asked what the exact problem was. Bob told him that he got fret buzz as he couldn't get his barring finger straight.
The fellow then gave him some advice about moving his elbow forward so that he changed the angle of his barring finger.

After the helpful man left, Bob asked the barman, "What does he know about guitar playing?"
The barman replied, "Probably more than you, that was Eric Clapton."
Message: Posted by: bozo (Apr 9, 2011 03:25PM)
Horse ****! Take away You-Tube, videos, personal instruction from peers, what do you have left? Books. What do you do, quit magic? [b]No[/b], you learn from a book. Believe it or not, you [b]will[/b] learn magic from the written word. Not only that, but after a while you will learn [b]quickly[/b] from books. You will struggle, you will curse, you will throw the book across the room, but you will pick it up the next day and it will actually make sense. You will begin to think about presentation, alternative ways of accomplishing a particular method. Lordy be, you might even make up your [b]own[/b] trick, based what you read.
By the way, Magic is [b]not[/b] easy. The fact that it has become easy is why 90% of it sucks these days.
Message: Posted by: Jim Oliver (Apr 9, 2011 03:29PM)
Andrew,

You may be quite right, but I do believe that these young men [b]do[/b] care about magic and do respect it.
However, I am only 52, not 80, but in my youth reading was all we had and I still love to read and study magic from books and here is why.

With a video you get to see how THAT person performs it, not how I am going to perform it. I don't want to be an imitator, I want my personality to come through in my performance. But if [b]all[/b] I ever see is how somebody else performs it then I may not be able to get past that only point of reference.
If I read it in a book, without the person standing there, then I can put it into my mind a little bit better without having to filter out somebody's personality that isn't mine.

Also it's kind of like a book verses the movie based on that book. Ever see The Godfather?
Ever read the book? It's like comparing a Locomotive to a tricycle. You can't get [b]all[/b] that subtle information out of the video.

But I do understand.

Jim
Message: Posted by: MickeyPainless (Apr 9, 2011 03:36PM)
Thank You for the Kyle's and Andrew's of the young magic world!

My first brick and mortar shop was Hollywood Magic (unfortunately no longer open) and the main shop help then were Newel "The Janitor" and Luis (who is still a friend and mentor) so I was blessed from the beginning but some of my last visits before they closed was greeted by those that Jim describes!

My 2nd to the last visit I came in with money in my pocket to buy high end coin gaffs and couldn't get help by the youngsters behind the counter doing the latest Buck moves (I've met and love the Twins) and stood unhelped at the end of the counter until Luis came back from lunch! He (Luis) commented to the "kids" that I was one of the Good Guys and that they should have helped me until he arrived and they responded with a shrug and who gives a **** attitude! I went one more time out of need of a prop but swore I'd never spend another dime again in that shop because of my experience!

It has become a sad state of affair but fortunately I know have (for several years) a friendship with Paul Gross of Hocus Pocus Magic in Fresno California and he is both knowledgeable and trustworthy so I spend my money there!

MMc
Message: Posted by: Jim Oliver (Apr 9, 2011 03:52PM)
Thanks Mickey,

I'm glad to see that I am not the only one to experience this situation.

To Bozo: I couldn't agree with you more! Could you imagine being stuck on a desert
island with nothing but a DVD and a DVD player? You would be one screwed puppy.

Put me on that same island with a deck of cards and Marlo Without Tears, and I'm
good to go!

Jim
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Apr 9, 2011 03:59PM)
Interesting, Bozo - all through the decades, all my books - never, ever, heard of anyone having to throw it across the room (except perhaps AT someone)! Never heard anyone cursing over them either - except perhaps to think "Wow, that's **** good! And I can [b]do[/b] the **** thing! ... HL.
Message: Posted by: MickeyPainless (Apr 9, 2011 04:02PM)
Just give me a brick of cards and a Harry Lorayne book and I'd be fine! I admire Marlo's work but after the 27th version of the same move I become bored! ;)

MMc


Posted: Apr 9, 2011 5:07pm
-------------------------------------
FWIW, I had [b]not[/b] read Harry's post prior to writing my last!

I just love and admire HL's work and hope to one day be able to do 20% of it with style and grace!

MMc
Message: Posted by: caruk (Apr 9, 2011 04:10PM)
[quote]
On 2011-04-09 16:13, Tom Fenton wrote:
Jim,

Your story reminded me of a friend of mine who was learning guitar.
He was in his local bar and the barman asked him how he was progressing with the guitar.
He replied that he was having trouble with barr chords.

The fellow next to him at the bar asked what the exact problem was. Bob told him that he got fret buzz as he couldn't get his barring finger straight.
The fellow then gave him some advice about moving his elbow forward so that he changed the angle of his barring finger.

After the helpful man left, Bob asked the barman, "What does he know about guitar playing?"
The barman replied, "Probably more than you, that was Eric Clapton."
[/quote]

Touche.
Message: Posted by: bozo (Apr 9, 2011 04:11PM)
Give [b]me[/b] a brick of cards and a Harry Lorayne book, and I can make you little house with a nice roof.
Message: Posted by: MickeyPainless (Apr 9, 2011 04:13PM)
Huh?
Message: Posted by: diehards2080 (Apr 9, 2011 04:35PM)
[quote]
On 2011-04-09 17:02, MickeyPainless wrote:
Just give me a brick of cards and a Harry Lorayne book and I'd be fine! I admire Marlo's work but after the 27th version of the same move I become bored! ;)

MMc
[/quote]

You know Mickey that was one of the things that I loved about Marlo. He had diffrent versions but I do admit it get a little dull.


Anyways back on topic it is sad that they wouldnt know who Marlo, Vernon, Slydini etc. But it just goes to show you how times are changing along with personal taste and knowledge. In the movie Zombieland the 12year old girl did not know who Bill Murray, Willy Nelson or Ghandi were. Sad things like this is true with todays youth.


Maybe its not their cup of tea, maybe its their lack of exposure to it. We know they are missing out because we know the value of the material. Maybe it should be brought to their attention when we come across them. And just maybe they want to juggle and color change with cards until the sun goes down. Who knows unless you talk to them.

Now the whole book reading thing. I'll just say todays youth should read just a bit more.

Just my opinion

Mike
Message: Posted by: rklew64 (Apr 9, 2011 05:39PM)
Let's be honest here - there will always be 2 groups of magicians, the well versed group and the other is of the ignorant, lazy, delusional and ignorant again types.

You can never teach them to appreciate reading or basically put in the work to these young kids of today, because they were raised by helicopter parents that unfortunately have unleashed a whole generation of arrogant entitled stupid kids/teens/young adults onto the world. I won't even get into their work ethics or more like lack of it completely.
So forget about any clever subversive mini intervention ploys in hopes of them "getting it". They are already hardwired for complacency and apathy. At least more so than ever among the 15-25 year olds demographic. All that is why there are more hack disrespectful magicians out there visiting and working behind the counter.
Message: Posted by: Andrew Zuber (Apr 9, 2011 05:49PM)
The reason I can't believe the guys in that store truly respected and were passionate about magic is that I know [b]tons[/b] of young people in magic, and they know who the greats are. The guys working in the shop may have been interested in magic, but how do you work in a magic shop and not know who Dai Vernon is? It's like a White House tour guide not knowing who the President is. Doesn't make sense to me.

I have learned from books, don't get me wrong. I've also studied acting and have been a performer since I was five years old, so it's never been an issue for me personally when it comes to presentation - I come up with my own. It's how I've always preferred to work. I'm the same way with the routines. I'll learn the basics and have a good foundation, but then I build upon it. I [b]love[/b] the material in the books I have. Stars of Magic is brilliant. I read the Dai Vernon Book of Magic for fun sometimes. The Complete Works of Derek Dingle is another fantastic text. I've learned all kinds of things from these resources, and I'd never give them up...but I prefer learning by watching. It's merely a personal preference and something that comes easier to me.

I love magic, but if I'm ever stranded on an island with nothing but a DVD player, I think I'm gonna have bigger worries than remembering the sequence to the three ball transposition ;)
Message: Posted by: alibaba (Apr 9, 2011 05:51PM)
Book? What means this word? Why everyone say Book? Book, book, book, all the time book. If you're talking about those pre-downloaded and printed-out paper things with letters all over them, me say, what good is book when you got dvd's, television and beer?
Message: Posted by: diehards2080 (Apr 9, 2011 06:03PM)
[quote]
On 2011-04-09 18:39, rklew64 wrote:
Let's be honest here - there will always be 2 groups of magicians, the well versed group and the other is of the ignorant, lazy, delusional and ignorant again types.

You can never teach them to appreciate reading or basically put in the work to these young kids of today, because they were raised by helicopter parents that unfortunately have unleashed a whole generation of arrogant entitled stupid kids/teens/young adults onto the world. I won't even get into their work ethics or more like lack of it completely.
So forget about any clever subversive mini intervention ploys in hopes of them "getting it". They are already hardwired for complacency and apathy. At least more so than ever among the 15-25 year olds demographic. All that is why there are more hack disrespectful magicians out there visiting and working behind the counter.
[/quote]
I deal with entitled arrogant people all day. Most I want to bash in the face honestly. I do agree the work ethics of today youth is horrible and they feel entitled and owed by all they feel is less than them. No argument there

But I don't think of every single one of them to be pure ********. You could tend to tell who you shouldn't bother and prob smash in the face and who you could talk too. I don't try any intervention ploys I just ask.

[quote]
On 2011-04-09 18:49, Andrew Zuber wrote:
The reason I can't believe the guys in that store truly respected and were passionate about magic is that I know TONS of young people in magic, and they know who the greats are. The guys working in the shop may have been interested in magic, but how do you work in a magic shop and not know who Dai Vernon is? It's like a White House tour guide not knowing who the President is. Doesn't make sense to me. [/quote]
It use to be to work places that you familiarize yourself with the products and/or learn some history about what your in. It doesn't look like they follow that practice anymore.

I remember I walked into a magic shop here in Queens, NY asking for some Darwin Ortiz material and the person did not know who the hell he was. I found that really shocking. I just turned and walked out.
Message: Posted by: Alan Munro (Apr 9, 2011 06:57PM)
[quote]
On 2011-04-09 16:25, bozo wrote:
Horse ****! Take away You-Tube, videos, personal instruction from peers, what do you have left? Books. What do you do, quit magic? [b]No[/b], you learn from a book. Believe it or not, you [b]will[/b] learn magic from the written word. Not only that, but after a while you will learn [b]quickly[/b] from books. You will struggle, you will curse, you will throw the book across the room, but you will pick it up the next day and it will actually make sense. You will begin to think about presentation, alternative ways of accomplishing a particular method. Lordy be, you might even make up your [b]own[/b] trick, based what you read.
By the way, Magic is [b]not[/b] easy. The fact that it has become easy is why 90% of it sucks these days.
[/quote]
Exactly! If you want to have original thoughts, turn off the $@&#ed music, computer and TV and allow yourself to actually let a thought hit you. You can't really create without silence.

Sure, I believe that DVDs have a place, but much of my repertoire came from experimenting with what I learned from a book. Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it and many of the new generation lack the observational skills to realize that they're making some major mistakes, that are obvious to the educated magician.


Posted: Apr 9, 2011 8:02pm
-------------------------------------
Part of the reason that some magic shops died is because the owner didn't require the clerks to study. Many major corporations pay for training for their employees - a magic shop should at least have a bibliography for the clerks to get busy on. If a brick and mortar shop wants to get the upper hand on the big internet shops, require your clerks to become students of the art.
Message: Posted by: caruk (Apr 9, 2011 07:44PM)
[quote]
On 2011-04-09 18:51, alibaba wrote:
Book? What means this word? Why everyone say Book? Book, book, book, all the time book. If you're talking about those pre-downloaded and printed-out paper things with letters all over them, me say, what good is book when you got dvd's, television and beer?
[/quote]

Ok. That's funny. Thanks for making me laugh alibaba.
Message: Posted by: Jim Oliver (Apr 9, 2011 08:07PM)
Andrew,

I couldn't believe it either! I really couldn't!

When I was about 17 I had a job at a famous hot dog stand that had a DER in front of it's name.

We had to go through training classes and had to learn some history about the place and other things like that. If you didn't, you simply did not work there.

If your a magician and want to work in a magic shop, should you not know something about 3 or 4 of the greatest magicians ever?

If someone comes into the shop and asks a question about a particular [b]book[/b], you should be able to give them some sort of an intelligent answer, right? Not this uuugh, who's that?

Now, I must also say that if I worked in a magic shop and did not know who D & D, or the Buck twins were, (because I really don't) then guess what? I ask the boss man to clue me in so I don't make his shop look bad when someone comes in and needs our help.

If your going to be in the business, know the business!

Jim

P. S. My daughter is a graphic artist. When she was in school they made her take a lot of [b]art history[/b] classes. You know, study [b]the masters[/b]. Yes it drove her nuts, but it's part of the business.
Magicians are [b]artists[/b]. They should know the [b]history of their art!!![/b]
Message: Posted by: caruk (Apr 9, 2011 08:34PM)
[quote]
On 2011-04-09 15:50, Andrew Zuber wrote:
I love having the books because they're great resources, and I enjoy my collection. It's great when someone says, "Oh, it's in Tarbell on page 37." I have it right at my fingertips. I also love to read in general - a good book will keep you engrossed for hours.

That said, I HATE learning routines in writing. It is very rare that I can fully make sense of something that's written. Throw in all the pictures and descriptions you want - I'm a visual learner. I want to see it performed, see the move explained, and watch someone do it. It's just how my mind works. I also struggle because even though I'm right handed, I perform backwards to what most descriptions state. If it says "hold the ball with your right hand" I'm probably holding it with the left. I've always been that way, so a description can be confusing because every time I see left/right, in my mind I have to reverse that. On video, it's easier for me to make that change.

[/quote]

Good point.
Learning by word is more challenging than learning it visually.
However, unless you are watching someone merely executing a sleight without patter or other influence, you will begin to imitate their persona. Choose your DVD's well.
Message: Posted by: Turk (Apr 9, 2011 09:04PM)
I started out in magic before the age of magic on videos. As a result, I began learning magic mainly through books. Unfortunately, I am a very literal person by training and, as a result, I sometimes found reading magic instructional books to be very frustrating because of bad grammar and poorly written sentences...particularly those with misplaced modifiers and imprecise instructions. (That said, I have a lot of sympathy for magic book writers...particularly in trying to describe complicated moves. (To appreciate the difficulty in this regard, try writing a simple set of instructions describing how to tie your shoe laces.)

When videos came out I was astounded at what I learned and the value of witnessing actual performances. After watching a magic video, I found that a lot of the moves being described in a book became clear(er) to me. In addition, I was able to witness timing, misdirection, and, watching the actual moves being performed confirmed in my mind that "Yes, that move actually does work and flies right by the audience". As a result, the magic I was reading in the books came alive and my confidence (that I too could perform and deceive audiences) grew.

To me, it is not a question of books versus videos. To me, they are complementary to each other and each has its place.

Mike
Message: Posted by: MaxfieldsMagic (Apr 9, 2011 10:24PM)
[quote]
On 2011-04-09 22:04, Turk wrote:
Unfortunately, I am a very literal person by training and, as a result, I sometimes found reading magic instructional books to be very frustrating because of bad grammar and poorly written sentences...particularly those with misplaced modifiers and imprecise instructions. (That said, I have a lot of sympathy for magic book writers...particularly in trying to describe complicated moves. (To appreciate the difficulty in this regard, try writing a simple set of instructions describing how to tie your shoe laces.)

[/quote]

Good analogy with the shoelace thing. And I think I've read some of those same books. You want to whip out the red pen, mark them up and send them back to the publisher. What's really annoying is when a book makes it to the second or third edition and still has mistakes in it. No excuse for that. By contrast, a well-written book is something to be savored.

The current generational bookphobia extends much farther than the magic world. Just this morning, my 16 year old stepdaughter told me she's researching a paper on back problems in horses. I asked whether she'd used any published print sources, or just the Internet. Guess what the answer was. I even offered to drive her to the library, but she looked at me like I had two heads. I'm betting her teacher would fall out of her chair if she ever reviewed a paper without a single wikisomething in the bibliography.
Message: Posted by: stoneunhinged (Apr 10, 2011 05:34AM)
You know, I'm surrounded by young people every day who have something to learn. I kinda figure that...well...maybe they'll learn it, maybe they won't. If they do, way cool. If they don't, that's cool, too. They'll move on to other things.

Going tsk tsk and talking about how shameful it is that they haven't yet learned what they need to learn is a bit, ah, well, premature. We don't look at babies and go tsk tsk because they can't yet walk or talk. Why should it be any different with young people?

Lighten up, folks. They're just kids.
Message: Posted by: Andrew Zuber (Apr 10, 2011 07:41AM)
Turk - I couldn't agree more. I too am a stickler about grammar, spelling, punctuation - you know, the things you learn in about the third grade.

It [b]astounds[/b] me how many badly written things I see in the magic field. Advertising, web sites, regular books, ebooks, instructions...if there's an opportunity for the written word, I've seen someone screw it up in the magic field. If an author has limitations or knows he struggles with spelling or grammar, have someone proof read the book. I've seen people on the forum from time to time, hyping their latest release, and the posts are [b]filled[/b] with errors. I won't buy from a person like that. They may have fantastic ideas, but if they can't write a couple of sentences properly, it's hard to believe that they've taken the time to thoroughly examine what they're selling, not just for spelling errors, but the product as a whole. I even saw an L&L DVD once with a title misspelled, so this extends even to that (although in general I really enjoy the L&L products.)

Sadly, this seems to be acceptable to most people, which is too bad. I must say, some magic books are extremely well written. Anything David Regal puts out is going to be solid - then again, the guy makes his living as a writer, so that's no surprise.

I wonder if this occurs as much in other fields?
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Apr 10, 2011 09:17AM)
Please don't just say "books"! That puts me into that category, and I'm [b]not[/b]. Easily solved, anyway - just buy the books from authors who [b]know how to write[/b], besides knowing how to teach magic - meaning, know how to teach an effect/routine/sleight/idea, etc., without having to show it on a DVD.
Message: Posted by: Merc Man (Apr 10, 2011 09:47AM)
[quote]
On 2011-04-09 13:43, Maitre D wrote:
Welcome to the new generation.

My best advice is... Get used to it.
[/quote]
I'd love to have a magic shop - anyone standing there juggling cards would get dragged round by the scruff of the neck to the nearest pub, thrown in front of a crowd of boozed up blokes and told "there you go - entertain them son"! After they died on their **** I'd give them some advice... 'get used to it'! ;)
Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (Apr 10, 2011 10:18AM)
[quote]
On 2011-04-09 17:02, MickeyPainless wrote:
Just give me a brick of cards and a Harry Lorayne book and I'd be fine! I admire Marlo's work but after the 27th version of the same move I become bored! ;)

MMc

[/quote]
That's because Marlo liked to hide his good suff.

Cheers!
Message: Posted by: MickeyPainless (Apr 10, 2011 11:10AM)
Hey Jim,

I too worked for the DER back around 73! The owner was a stickler to detail and would park his van across the street down an alley and watch us through binoculars! He would put dimes in the nooks and crannies of the bright work to ensure we cleaned every sq. inch! He'd also send spies to make bizarre orders and have them rate our service! We knew he did these things but never when or where so it kept us on our toes and we learned to take pride in our work!

Making Asst. Manager by 17-18 was a [b]big[/b] deal back then, yet you'd probably be ridiculed by your peers today just for working in a fast food joint!

MMc


Posted: Apr 10, 2011 12:13pm
--------------------------------------
I think Barry and I would get along quite well in person!
Message: Posted by: R.E. Byrnes (Apr 10, 2011 12:02PM)
Things were so much better back when Young People read books, revered the Greats, and respected an honest day's work
Message: Posted by: caruk (Apr 10, 2011 12:40PM)
[quote]
On 2011-04-10 13:02, R.E. Byrnes wrote:
Things were so much better back when Young People read books, revered the Greats, and respected an honest day's work.
[/quote]
[b]Amen[/b]
Message: Posted by: Justin W (Apr 10, 2011 12:55PM)
We can file this thread under "Needlessly Redundant".

What do you guys prefer, red or blue decks?
Message: Posted by: Jim Oliver (Apr 10, 2011 04:16PM)
Justin W,

I don't find anything said here to be "Needlessly Redundant".

Do you think practicing a card move to perfection is "Needlessly Redundant"?
Do you think studying the history of magic is "Needlessly Redundant"?
Do you think having people respect you for entertaining them week after week
at the same restaurant or night club is "Needlessly Redundant"?
Do you think giving magic lessons to younger Ed Marlo's and future Dia Vernon's
and little Harry Loraynes is "Needlessly Redundant"?

I don't!

Thank you guys for commenting and giving your thoughts on my little subject.

Jim Oliver

P.S. I was one of those little magicians back in the day and believe it or not, buy the
time I was 17 I knew who Hofzinser was, Ed Marlo, Dia Vernon, Harry Lorayne, Jerry Mintzer,
Robert Houdin, Jimmy Grippo, Paul Harris, Michael Skinner, Chung Ling Soo, Martin Nash and
a whole lot more... and that was in 1976!!!
Message: Posted by: Tim Sutton (Apr 10, 2011 04:46PM)
"needlessly redundant" - at least half of that phrase is redundant.
Message: Posted by: R.E. Byrnes (Apr 10, 2011 04:59PM)
It's redundant to "twist" four aces rather than just one. Is it needless?
Message: Posted by: MaxfieldsMagic (Apr 10, 2011 05:41PM)
[quote]
The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for
authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place
of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their
households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They
contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties
at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.
[/quote]
- Attributed to Socrates by Plato.
Message: Posted by: Justin W (Apr 10, 2011 06:10PM)
I guess after a while it just gets irritating hearing the same stomping and hollering from magicians over this topic. This thread boils down to "*********, this sucks," and happens to show up every other day on every type of magic forum. But oh well. I'll just steer clear and let you guys fume.

Here's something a bit more constructive to add--with the death of printed media, yes, we [b]should[/b] just get used to it. I'm only 20, so it's my generation, and the generation before me, that's getting your guys' goat so badly. I'm just as annoyed as you guys, but we just have to accept that more ebooks and more DVDs means more of the childish ******. Yes, it sucks. But it's just too big of a situation to do anything about. It's something massive affecting the whole world, which in turn affects our small magic world. Instead of getting upset over the deck chairs, let's just enjoy how comfortable they are, eh boys?
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Apr 10, 2011 06:41PM)
Jim, you share my thoughts exactly. The good news is, the DVD guys will never be any good. The bad news is, they show people "magic" and that hurts real magicians. By real magicians, of course, I mean those who have studied and study the art, and one cannot properly be a student of this fine art without its literature.
Rod.
Message: Posted by: Andrew Zuber (Apr 10, 2011 06:57PM)
I wouldn't say "the DVD guys will never be any good." I do think, as someone else said, that DVDs can be good supplements to books, especially for those of us that struggle with learning just from the written word.

Having said that, I fully acknowledge that the work of many of the greats in magic is far more present in literature than it is on tape, and it's important that any serious student of magic look at those resources as well.
Message: Posted by: rklew64 (Apr 10, 2011 07:30PM)
What I want to know is how you would get power on the island to run the dvd and tv?! And what about snacks, you have to have snacks!
Message: Posted by: Brandon Sheffield (Apr 10, 2011 09:43PM)
This whole thread is kind of funny to me. We have to realize a few things first.

1. Not all young guys have little knowledge of the "greats" just like not all old guys hate young magicians. For every young guy out there who is "juggling" cards and doesn't know who Marlo was, I will give you the Buck twins. Two people who have an extreme respect for the classics in magic, not only the magicians but also the books as well. Not to mention they can *** sure juggle some cards ;)

2. There are great performers believe it or not who learned from magic DVDs! I love magic books, I have a nice collection much to the dismay of my wife. But the truth of the matter is I also have a huge DVD collection and I have learned from them equally as much.

3. I guess I might be considered a younger magician??? I'm not sure, I turn 30 in December but if I was younger and I saw the way we talk about younger magicians on some of these forums, I really wouldn't blame them for having a disregard for any kind of history.

4. One last thing, just because a young magician doesn't know who Ed Marlo was, does not mean he doesn't respect magic. Maybe he just respects some one else? What if he couldn't name a magician from the 60's but he could name every Chris Kenner, Josh Jay, Paul Harris, Greg Wilson, and every other wonderful magician since. Does that make him less of a magician? It might make him less of a historian but it doesn't make him disrespectful or less of a performer.

I can only imagine how the older magicians talked about some of you guys when you were young ;)

Brandon
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Apr 10, 2011 11:01PM)
[quote]
On 2011-04-10 22:43, Brandon Sheffield wrote:
This whole thread is kind of funny to me. We have to realize a few things first.

1. Not all young guys have little knowledge of the "greats" just like not all old guys hate young magicians. For every young guy out there who is "juggling" cards and doesn't know who Marlo was, I will give you the Buck twins. Two people who have an extreme respect for the classics in magic, not only the magicians but also the books as well. Not to mention they can *** sure juggle some cards ;)

2. There are great performers believe it or not who learned from magic DVDs! I love magic books, I have a nice collection much to the dismay of my wife. But the truth of the matter is I also have a huge DVD collection and I have learned from them equally as much.

3. I guess I might be considered a younger magician??? I'm not sure, I turn 30 in December but if I was younger and I saw the way we talk about younger magicians on some of these forums, I really wouldn't blame them for having a disregard for any kind of history.

4. One last thing, just because a young magician doesn't know who Ed Marlo was, does not mean he doesn't respect magic. Maybe he just respects some one else? What if he couldn't name a magician from the 60's but he could name every Chris Kenner, Josh Jay, Paul Harris, Greg Wilson, and every other wonderful magician since. Does that make him less of a magician? It might make him less of a historian but it doesn't make him disrespectful or less of a performer.

I can only imagine how the older magicians talked about some of you guys when you were young. ;)

Brandon
[/quote]
It's nothing to do with being a historian.
Message: Posted by: Jim Oliver (Apr 10, 2011 11:12PM)
Rklew64,

That's what the coconuts are for!

Brandon Sheffield,

My point I guess is this. If I were an artist, like someone who paints works that
hang in the art galleries of New York or London, and I did not have a clue as to who
Rembrant or Van Gough were, I would be laughed out of the city!

So yes I think that anybody who considers themselves a CARDICIAN better know who Vernon
or Marlo was, you better believe it!!!

Jim
Message: Posted by: rklew64 (Apr 10, 2011 11:32PM)
Coconuts...Awesome!!
I know not correct to digress on this thread but just to say - Mary Ann.
Message: Posted by: Merc Man (Apr 11, 2011 01:02AM)
My comments were not aimed at younger people - I've known countless older magicians that don't buy magic books and haven't been interested in the history of magic.

However, for the earlier comment about 'printed media' being dead.

Let's remember just one thing; books were around for a bloody long time before videos.....and they are [b]still[/b] being printed long after BetaMax and VHS have long been forgotten. No doubt it will be the same with DVD's as well! ;)
Message: Posted by: Justin W (Apr 11, 2011 01:10AM)
Books will not [b]totally[/b] disappear anytime soon. However, they will become more and more marginalized. This is a fact, and one that cannot be helped (unfortunately). DVDs are not the future of magic--that title belongs to instant downloads.
Message: Posted by: J.Warrens (Apr 11, 2011 03:25AM)
[quote]
On 2011-04-11 02:10, Justin W wrote:
DVDs are not the future of magic--that title belongs to instant downloads.
[/quote]

Actually, not correct. The "future" of magic belongs to those with talent, hard work and dedication. Those who study, practice and think. The medium one uses to study doesn't really matter.

I don't believe that instant downloads are really the way. They're for hobbyists. The real problem is that magic is seen as a "get rich quick" scheme far too often. I think as time progresses, we will begin to see less and less magic being marketed because of the rampant piracy that is so easy with videos. I predict that books (whether physical or electronic) will become the province of the "real work", while amateurs will continue to make amateur creations for amateur money.

That's not to say that all amateurs fit into this category (there are certainly many who don't), but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the one's who do .

Sorry to get off-topic momentarily.

Cheers,

J.Warrens
Message: Posted by: greymagick (Apr 11, 2011 04:25AM)
[quote]Actually, not correct. The "future" of magic belongs to those with talent, hard work and dedication.[/quote]
And even if you don't have any talent, enough hard work and dedication may allow you to do the trick. In more ways than one.

Talent may make things easier, but you cannot go far without breaking a sweat.
Message: Posted by: Justin W (Apr 11, 2011 08:49AM)
What I meant was, with the digitizing of media, eventually magic will go the way of nearly full-on "instant download," just as CDs have all but died as the rise of the mp3 and the iPod keeps growing and growing. I was not commenting at all on the magicians themselves, just the type of medium. I'd hazard that magicians will adapt to learning through this medium if it's the only option. Instant downloads are for the hobbyists NOW, but that might not necessarily be the case in the future. It's easy and comforting to say magicians will remain ardent traditionalists, but if the current and impending generations have taught us anything, it's that our traditions aren't as cast in stone as we'd hope them to be. The consumer culture of magic is no different than the consumer culture of the world at large, which means convenience and immediacy trump quality and reliability any day of the week.

To continue this metaphor, vinyl sounded great, cassettes sounded terrible, CDs were a slight step up from cassettes--but not so hot--and now mp's sound like hell. But that's not stopping the new generations from jumping gung-ho onto the mp3 wagon because you can now fit 40,000 songs on something the size of your palm. Sure you have the vinyl revivalists (I just picked up two Talking Heads records just yesterday--happiest day of my life), but compared to the public at large, they ain't nothing.
Message: Posted by: greymagick (Apr 11, 2011 10:55AM)
[quote]
To continue this metaphor, vinyl sounded great, cassettes sounded terrible, CDs were a slight step up from cassettes--but not so hot--and now mp's sound like hell. But that's not stopping the new generations from jumping gung-ho onto the mp3 wagon because you can now fit 40,000 songs on something the size of your palm.[/quote]
Right, but that is not the point in question. That would be more along the lines of whether the easy availability of 40,000 badly sounding songs has somehow degraded the value of music in the eyes of the owner. Some would say that if cheap music is so easy to get, it won't be appreciated as much. That is certainly debatable.

Easy availability, easy means of production, and lots of options mean that a greater part of the total will be of inferior quality. That I won't dispute. But whether or not each individual can learn to appreciate the underlying values and seek a deeper understanding, that has not essentially changed. I can see why many of us dislike the idea of low-quality magic being available to the 'uneducated masses' because we feel it trivializes something that we have a deep respect for. But we must be aware that magic is trivialized only in the hands of those who don't love it enough and don't have a passion for it. There always will be serious, respectful students. They are easy to pick out from the random noise background. And those will really learn, and keep learning real, quality magic, by any means available, being more able to discern what is of value and what isn't. Things have not changed that much, in my opinion. Only the scale of things has.
Message: Posted by: R.E. Byrnes (Apr 11, 2011 01:56PM)
Magic is in greater peril if those practicing it genuinely take the statement that instant downloads are "the future" to be a statement that videos have somehow supplanted "talent, hard work and dedication."

Also, if the "medium one uses to study doesn't really matter," why would there be an entirely improbable, counter-technology movement by which only books become the repository for "serious work," while abject amateurs are relegated to the inferior instant download medium? how exactly will that completely inorganic separation happen? Lee Asher, for one, disseminates his methods in a hybrid form: essentially electronic books in which what used to be crappy, static drawings are links to videos. it's difficult to see how that's a step backward from the terse text and often completely unhelpful photos of, say, Stars of Magic.

Paper books were radical in their time, and their becoming commonplace was lamented by those who saw them supplanting the Right Way to Learn: face-to-face, mentor to mentee instruction, given only when the newcomer had demonstrated fidelity to the Art. so why not just go full luddite, and insist that we return to that model if we really want to exalt talent, hard work and dedication?

The great moves and effects will always be hard and require years of focus layered on some innate ability and deep interest. Callow 15 year-olds with black cards and incongruous background music doing Zarrow "tutorials" are no more a threat than the many mediocrities who ordered the original Tarbell course, or the wide availability of double-face cards. As with the popularization of books, both of those events were also projected to have dire consequences by people who remembered a better era that just happened to coincide with when they were around 20 years old. There were crappy magicians even when people supposedly had great respect for managers at der Weinerschnitzel, just as there are now; b.f.d. there are probably more great ones, now, than in all the rest of human history combined, and that's partly attributable to technology allowing methods to reach those with exceptional innate talent, desire or interest who, in prior eras, would never have discovered them under past conventions and limitations.

Above all, though, technology will always overwhelm attempts to contain it. Better to light a candle than engage the futility of cursing the darkness.
Message: Posted by: Justin W (Apr 11, 2011 03:14PM)
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Message: Posted by: Andrew Zuber (Apr 11, 2011 03:17PM)
What he said. :)
Message: Posted by: The Burnaby Kid (Apr 11, 2011 03:27PM)
[quote]
On 2011-04-10 06:34, stoneunhinged wrote:
You know, I'm surrounded by young people every day who have something to learn. I kinda figure that...well...maybe they'll learn it, maybe they won't. If they do, way cool. If they don't, that's cool, too. They'll move on to other things.

Going tsk tsk and talking about how shameful it is that they haven't yet learned what they need to learn is a bit, ah, well, premature. We don't look at babies and go tsk tsk because they can't yet walk or talk. Why should it be any different with young people?

Lighten up, folks. They're just kids.
[/quote]

QFT.
Message: Posted by: R.E. Byrnes (Apr 11, 2011 03:34PM)
Seconded
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Apr 11, 2011 03:59PM)
[quote]On 2011-04-11 00:12, Jim Oliver wrote:
If I were an artist . . . and I did not have a clue as to who Rembrant or Van Gough were, I would be laughed out of the city![/quote]
As [i]Andrew Zuber[/i] might write: [i]Rembran[b]d[/b]t[/i] and [i]Van Gogh[/i].
Message: Posted by: R.E. Byrnes (Apr 11, 2011 04:19PM)
Even a tiny misspelling does kind of kill the force of arguments about how it's indispensable to know particular names
Message: Posted by: caruk (Apr 11, 2011 04:27PM)
[quote]
On 2011-04-11 17:19, R.E. Byrnes wrote:
Even a tiny misspelling does kind of kill the force of arguments about how it's indispensable to know particular names
[/quote]

Unless it was done intentionally.......
Not that there's anything wrong with that.
Message: Posted by: MaxfieldsMagic (Apr 11, 2011 04:58PM)
[quote]
On 2011-04-11 16:59, S2000magician wrote:
[quote]On 2011-04-11 00:12, Jim Oliver wrote:
If I were an artist . . . and I did not have a clue as to who Rembrant or Van Gough were, I would be laughed out of the city![/quote]
As [i]Andrew Zuber[/i] might write: [i]Rembran[b]d[/b]t[/i] and [i]Van Gogh[/i].
[/quote]

Actual quote from a song sung by Sycolin Creek Elementary School's (Leesburg, VA) second grade class at this year's annual musical, as they stood there with bandages over their ears:

"Van Gogh!
Though mentally unstable,
He really was able
To see things others couldn't see."

How cute they are at that age.

Back to the thread...
Message: Posted by: MickeyPainless (Apr 11, 2011 05:50PM)
I'm all for proper spelling (but as most know, I am punctually/ (punctuation-ally) illiterate) but when did our discussions become so literate and hyper intellectual? Geez, I need a dictionary, thesaurus and a PhD in English and Philosophy to read half the crap spewed in some of these posts these days!

MMc VMEqD *BFD*
Message: Posted by: caruk (Apr 11, 2011 06:40PM)
[quote]
On 2011-04-11 18:50, MickeyPainless wrote:
I'm all for proper spelling (but as most know, I am punctually/ (punctuation-ally) illiterate) but when did our discussions become so literate and hyper intellectual? Geez, I need a dictionary, thesaurus and a PhD in English and Philosophy to read half the crap spewed in some of these posts these days!

MMc VMEqD *BFD*
[/quote]

It's a result of "book learnin'". What a curse......
Message: Posted by: Andrew Zuber (Apr 11, 2011 07:32PM)
[quote]
On 2011-04-11 16:59, S2000magician wrote:
[quote]On 2011-04-11 00:12, Jim Oliver wrote:
If I were an artist . . . and I did not have a clue as to who Rembrant or Van Gough were, I would be laughed out of the city![/quote]
As [i]Andrew Zuber[/i] might write: [i]Rembran[b]d[/b]t[/i] and [i]Van Gogh[/i].
[/quote]
For the record I would have botched both of those without checking first. God bless Google ;)
Message: Posted by: Jim Oliver (Apr 11, 2011 09:13PM)
Notice I said IF...
Message: Posted by: Jim Oliver (Apr 11, 2011 09:43PM)
Sorry I misspelled both of those names...
But I am not the art history major here.

[b]And[/b] I have seen many a person here spell Marlo with an E & a W at the end...
so lighten up.
Message: Posted by: rklew64 (Apr 11, 2011 09:52PM)
Can we get back to the effing literary nescient younger magicians? puuleasze.
Message: Posted by: R.E. Byrnes (Apr 11, 2011 11:48PM)
Sounds as if elitism, quite possibly socialism, is creeping in
Message: Posted by: terrychylton (Apr 13, 2011 02:04AM)
Great post, this makes me thankful I had no money when I first started or I would have been like this. I always wished at the time I had loads of money, so I could buy all these amazing things that were jumping around, setting on fire, changing colour. Instead I could only afford to buy a couple of books, this I now know was the best thing that could have happened. I got RRTCM and Expert Card Technique. Obviously on opening Expert Card Technique I was thinking this is ridiculously hard and not for me, then I gave RRTCM a go and then a proper step by step read, with hours and hours of practise and I started to build some grounding on which to improve from. Not only that but it made me appreciate what I was holding and then came a love of learning and striving to try and perfect what I was studying. This I think can only really come from sitting down and learning not only the basic moves, but learning to just do it because you love it and you want to better yourself, not because you want to buy a DVD today and tomorrow singe someones eyebrows off and them to love you for it. You have to love it because you love it, not because you love the thought of a certain reaction as soon as possible. A problem with certain people in my generation, is quick gratification, easy quick way to reach a goal and only ever thinking about what is good for them in the next day or week. This is with anything, take my other passion the guitar, you first learn your chords and scales and you sit practising for hours until you feel yourself improving and one day you suddenly learn the amazing feeling that now you can use these tools and basics to put yourself into the instrument and find how you want to play it and let your personality shine through. Without the starting point and the real hard graft however you will either unskillfully imitate great people until you die, give up or wise up and find out you have to go back to the beginning and find your feet all over again. I am however only talking about certain people and obviously not a whole generation, it's just on the increase because these day it is easier to get what you want and get it quick, but some people still do the graft and take pride in their studying and bettering themselves, and I think it's those ones you should be giving your time to, not the others. Sorry for rambling. Cheers.
Message: Posted by: Whit Haydn (Apr 13, 2011 12:52PM)
I don't see any problem. The young people today who refuse to read and study the greats of magic's past, will be the exact ones I [b]want[/b] to have competing with me for work when I am 75.
Message: Posted by: jazzy snazzy (Apr 13, 2011 01:38PM)
That's very true Whit but they will also be running the nursing homes.
A terrifying thought.
Message: Posted by: Vick (May 15, 2011 12:04AM)
Introducing the new Bio-Optic Organized Knowledge device, trade named BOOK.

BOOK is a revolutionary breakthrough in technology: no wires, no electric circuits,

….no batteries, nothing to be connected or switched on!
...
So easy to use, even a child can operate it. Compact and portable, it can be used anywhere — even sitting in an armchair by the fire — yet it is powerful enough to hold as much information as a CD-ROM.




As for the XCM stuff, that's basically juggling. Perhaps challenging to learn or do but it's not magic, nothing magic about it, it's juggling.

Eye candy that holds interest for about 24 seconds.

More and more I am seeing a switch back to learning more from books and learning about how to present the art (even the Buck twins push book learning on their lecture tours).

Videos show .... books teach.
Message: Posted by: Brad Burt (May 15, 2011 08:30AM)
Human teachers show.

Books teach.

Hmmmmmmm..... It would be perhaps more accurate to say that 'some' videos 'show' and some videos 'teach', depending on the focus, knowledge, expertise of the person using 'video'.

Some books are wonderful teaching vehicles and some are not so good. Has no one else here never learned something from a book wrong, simply because what they imagined the move to look like (despite the 'helpful' illustrations) was not actually how the move should look or work? I admit that I was singularly without ANY local shop, helpful older magician, etc. I literally learned everything from books without seeing and example of what I was learning and in one particular case using what is still my all time favorite magic book I learned one particular move so badly that I just couldn't believe the I had in fact interpreted the text and photo correctly. I practiced it 'wrong' for three years and then on the 300th reading of the explanation ..... Eureka! I realized my mistake and it only took me about a year to correct three years of practice!!! IF....I ...... had SEEN the thing done correctly just once...

By the by...the book was the Amateur Magician's Handbook by Hay and the move was the Side Steal. I just simply misread the text and added to it to make up for the misreading...... I knew the entire time that something was wrong, but in my isolation I just had no one to run it by, etc.

Hilariously I can no longer perform the side steal because I took up the guitar. The had callus on the tips of my left finger just slide over the card....no grip! Oh, well................. '-)
Message: Posted by: Whit Haydn (May 15, 2011 12:04PM)
I have "invented" some moves by misreading text. It can be a good thing.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (May 15, 2011 12:19PM)
[quote]
On 2011-04-09 13:36, Jim Oliver wrote:...
There is a magic shop within a 40 minute drive of where I live. I have been there a number of times. Every time I am there the young guys that are behind the counter are usually doing a bunch of fancy cutting of the cards in their hands. After about 30 seconds of this I am ready to fall asleep because it is like watching someone juggle....
[/quote]

What leads you to expect there are that many folks who "get it" about magic and can also "teach it" or write?

I happened to get my start at Tannen's in NYC. You can read about some of that in the Genii article and infer/deduce much more from what's posted here at the Café.

But what leads you to expect that level of sheer talent and expertise and willingness to share will be wherever you go?

Please seek out the people who can help you get to the ideas, books, prop makers and other similarly minded artisans in our craft and ... kindly don't waste your time complaining about those whose only purpose in our craft is to be cash cows - or those who make their living creating/selling product to those cash cows.
Message: Posted by: Jim Oliver (May 23, 2011 10:02PM)
Hey guys,

Let's not forget what my original post was about.

My point was that these young magicians don't have a clue as to who the masters are, or were,
and that (in my opinion) is because they don't read the books.

I am not saying that they should not watch dvd's. Just that in order to complete the circle
they might want to know where the roots of the craft and art come from. This means that they might
have to open a book.

The real corker was that they did not know who 3 of the greatest card workers on this planet were!
That was the frustrating part to me.

Jim
Message: Posted by: stoneunhinged (May 24, 2011 02:30AM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-23 23:02, Jim Oliver wrote:

My point was that these young magicians don't have a clue as to who the masters are, or were,
and that (in my opinion) is because they don't read the books.
[/quote]

And my point is that the young magicians don't know any better, because they are...ah...well...young.

If they stick with it, they'll read the books, they'll learn who the masters are, and they'll find what's useful to them and what isn't.

Yet another observation: maybe some of these young folk will create something astonishingly interesting and new, precisely because they don't have the preconceptions of us old folk.

As I said, lighten up. They're just kids.

Now, if you want a good discussion about some self-proclaimed [b]Master Magician[/b] who doesn't even know Keller from Vernon, then you'll have one. But the kids are just beginning their journeys.

Whether real knowledge is in books or videos is yet another question, I suppose. But youth has nothing to do with such a discussion, IMO.
Message: Posted by: ancientmagic (Jun 1, 2011 05:30PM)
"My point was that these young magicians don't have a clue as to who the masters are, or were,
and that (in my opinion) is because they don't read the books."

Jim, I can empathize with you greatly, I feel the same way! However, most of these kids grew up in a society on visual overload...entertainment, learning communicating etc...has been fed to them through the mega-pixels of a screen versus the letters on page.

It is not just in magic but in all areas of learning. I teach "college" level philosophy classes here in Tucson and I kid you not every semester when I ask the kids(read students here) who is Socrates or Aristotle they draw a blank. A few years ago I could at least use the Bill & Ted movie line, "You know So Crates," to get them to align with me. Now, even that's gone by the wayside.

--Best

John
Message: Posted by: miistermagico (Aug 14, 2017 10:53PM)
Before you can learn from an expert you must decide you want to learn from an expert. Then hopefully you will seek out an expert. Experts are usually professionals and talented amateurs known in their craft by their peers. This may take some time and exploration. Never be in a hurry to learn something new and expect you will make mistakes along the way. It takes a life time to gather knowledge. For myself I have found all media and lectures available to a newbie by experts to be very valuable. There will always be things you will not know or ever know.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 16, 2017 08:07PM)
Better late than never as they say. :)
Message: Posted by: Josh Riel (Aug 20, 2017 10:51PM)
The entire point of being young is to be wrong all the time, as an older fella it's harder to get away with.


Also: Hello 6 years ago! I wonder if I'll read this back then.
Also again: Hello 4 days ago!