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Topic: Overkill
Message: Posted by: CardC (Jul 3, 2011 01:19PM)
I was wondering what kinds of reactions have you guys gotten from this effect? As a magician it seems almost too simple, but usually those are the effects that crush the pulp out of layfolks...

I want to try performing this but I want to get it more natural first.

Just curious :)
Message: Posted by: Dr. JK (Jul 3, 2011 03:04PM)
The reactions are awesome. And don't be afraid to give people explicit instructions on counting out the cards in their hand (if you know what I mean). They'll never remember. Trust me.
Message: Posted by: MagicJuggler (Jul 6, 2011 03:52AM)
I once did the effect as my opening trick working a party at realty firm, simply naming the card got once person to curse loudly, the multiple revelations afterward simply increased the overall reaction from the whole audience, leading to some very enthusiatic applause. Of course I also started my card stuff with a deck that was conveniantly handed to me that was sealed and wrapped in celophane. So that my have helped a bit. :)
Nice thing about overkill, is you can stack the deck for Vernon's poker deal, and do overkill without disturbing the stack on the bottom.
Message: Posted by: Mike Maturen (Jul 8, 2011 07:17AM)
CardC....

You are correct that it is often the "simple" tricks that fry the audience...just look at the Sponge Bunnies for crying out loud!

We as magicians seem to want to look at method. Let's face it...we are geeks (but at least we're "cool" geeks!).

I would much rather find a simple method for a great effect, simply so I can concentrate on presentation. A technically great trick perfectly performed can still suck in a spectator's mind if it doesn't connect on some level with them.

That's why they call us entertainers!
Message: Posted by: Louis Lu (Aug 11, 2011 05:01PM)
It's a great trick, and I love it.

Beware of those over analytical people though. I performed it for someone who refuses to be fooled or entertained by magic. Once he reasoned the selection was forced, the multiple revelations lose their impact.
Message: Posted by: Vlad_77 (Aug 11, 2011 10:00PM)
[quote]
On 2011-08-11 18:01, Louis Lu wrote:
It's a great trick, and I love it.

Beware of those over analytical people though. I performed it for someone who refuses to be fooled or entertained by magic. Once he reasoned the selection was forced, the multiple revelations lose their impact.
[/quote]

Obviously Louis would know this, but, if the force fails, do another effect. Also, if you ascertain that one of those overly analytical people are there, do one of those effects where the conditions imposed are SO impossible that when you fry him, you have him and the rest of the audience PRIMED for anything you want to do to them - magically of course.

Overkill is a powerful effect but it is one of those - at least for me - where I pick my spots. This effect IMHO requires no interruptions so I would never do it in an environment such as a restaurant. But YMMV.

Ahimsa,
Vlad
Message: Posted by: Blueroyalty (Aug 12, 2011 12:09AM)
Louis if you know the type of person they are, why would you even perform for them?
Message: Posted by: Louis Lu (Aug 12, 2011 05:58PM)
[quote]
On 2011-08-12 01:09, Blueroyalty wrote:
Louis if you know the type of person they are, why would you even perform for them?
[/quote]

Well, I didn't know he was that type, and yes, lesson learned. This person also happens to be my manager, and after performing a couple of effects for him and seeing his reaction, I won't be showing him any card tricks in the near future.
Message: Posted by: Vlad_77 (Aug 12, 2011 06:57PM)
[quote]
On 2011-08-12 18:58, Louis Lu wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-08-12 01:09, Blueroyalty wrote:
Louis if you know the type of person they are, why would you even perform for them?
[/quote]

Well, I didn't know he was that type, and yes, lesson learned. This person also happens to be my manager, and after performing a couple of effects for him and seeing his reaction, I won't be showing him any card tricks in the near future.
[/quote]

Haha, I would LOVE a shot at your manager!! Analytical people (engineers are a GREAT example) are easy prey man!! Throw in a few red herrings and you got 'em. MMDV!!

Ahimsa,
Vlad
Message: Posted by: J.Warrens (Aug 30, 2011 04:21AM)
I had an engineer nail me on Card Warp once. He said "that's easy..." and then immediately told me in great detail how it worked - correctly.
Thankfully, he did this in private when nobody else was around. He said that his job granted him a keen eye for spatial relationships. LOL

Anyways, back on track: Overkill, is great - but as has been mentioned already, you have to pick your audience right for this one.

Wait a minute..what am I talking about? That actually applies to ANY effect in magic...!

Cheers.
Message: Posted by: Calvin826 (Apr 30, 2016 08:58PM)
Amazing effect- in fact, I HATE how such a self-working procedural gets better reactions than the knuckle-busting stuff I do.

That being said, my presentation is a bit different than the original- I mixed up the order of the reveals a bit, threw in a red herring, added a nice kicker and raised the stakes in the form of a small wager. Never fails, and I haven't been called out once.
Message: Posted by: Terrible Wizard (May 1, 2016 07:51AM)
Fantastic effect :)

Never underestimate 'self-workers'.
Message: Posted by: NotThatLarson (Jun 30, 2016 07:52PM)
Maybe I'm an idiot, but I'm not sure what effect we are talking about here.
Message: Posted by: alondon (Jul 19, 2016 11:40AM)
Can someone give me the reference for overkill
Thanks
Message: Posted by: warren (Jul 20, 2016 04:24AM)
It can be found on The Stars Of Magic dvd's volume 1 and I believe its also in Paul Harris's Art Of Astonishment books.
Message: Posted by: ejohn (Jul 20, 2016 02:17PM)
For those who think Overkill may be a little, ah, overkill, check out Under Overkill on YouTube.
Message: Posted by: warren (Jul 21, 2016 01:06PM)
I checked out Under Overkill and all I saw was a tutorial by someone who's constantly exposing other magicians work ( which I detest ) going back to the actual effect though personally I didn't like it as it had very unnatural card handling and isn't a patch on the original routine.
Message: Posted by: terrillific (Jul 23, 2016 02:56AM)
Here is Paul Harris teaching Overkill. https://youtu.be/vGkKWy4EZWM
Message: Posted by: warren (Jul 24, 2016 12:14PM)
I'm sure Paul Harris would be pleased to see his work being exposed on youtube !!
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 20, 2016 06:19AM)
[quote]On Jul 20, 2016, ejohn wrote:
For those who think Overkill may be a little, ah, overkill, check out Under Overkill on YouTube. [/quote]
No. Please no.
Message: Posted by: SamChak (Aug 21, 2016 08:29AM)
[quote]On Jun 30, 2016, NotThatLarson wrote:
I'm not sure what effect we are talking about here. [/quote]

The [b]"Overkill" Card Trick[/b] (credited to Ackerman, Emberg, and Marlo) is a self-working routine with minimal setup that involves multiple phases (mind-reading, prediction, color change, and match-a-card).

For better understanding, watch a performance video by Paul Harris or read his book "[b]The Art of Astonishment (Book 2)[/b]".
Message: Posted by: SamChak (Aug 24, 2016 03:59AM)
[quote]On Aug 11, 2011, Louis Lu wrote:
Beware of those over analytical people though. I performed it for someone who refuses to be fooled or entertained by magic. Once he reasoned the selection was forced, the multiple revelations lose their impact. [/quote]

If you start the performance (1) [b]without shuffling the deck[/b], (2) [b]count the specific number[/b] of the 20 cards displayed on the table, and (3) [b]reveal the only red-back[/b] strange card in the blue deck, an [b]observant spectator[/b] may reconstruct the effect and suggest that her selection was predetermined and forced. Critically contemplation of the phases in the routine may further reinforce the suggestion that the routine and the prediction found written on the flap were setup.

The handlings of most self-working effects are flexible and can be modified to suit the magician's presentation style and to eliminate unwanted suspicions. For example, the mind-reading phase can be performed convincingly using a blindfold as seen in Joshua Jay's [b]Out of Sight[/b], and the prediction can be revealed "magically" with Christopher Wiehl's [b]Burn Notice[/b] concept. The blindfolded magician may combine the ideas of [b]Lucky Cut[/b] plus [b]Spectator's Age[/b] plus [b]"Blank" Deck[/b], and ask the spectator to flip over the card that corresponds to the number of cards in her initial packet cut.

[youtube]FKgpK5V2iTQ[/youtube]

[youtube]c4LRinBwz5g[/youtube]
Message: Posted by: SamChak (Aug 25, 2016 10:49PM)
[quote]On Jul 20, 2016, ejohn wrote:
For those who think Overkill may be a little, ah, overkill, check out Under Overkill on YouTube. [/quote]

The underlying arithmetic principle used in the [b]Under Overkill[/b] on YouTube should be hidden, or at least masked under psychological handling. To the unobservant spectators, deliberately counting the cards may raise suspicion that the deck was initially setup using unknown clever math property. While it may fool some unobservant spectators, the effect is reduced to merely a math puzzle to locate a card for the observant spectators and the [b]math aficionados[/b].

If you want to compare how good the arithmetic principle can be hidden, check out Larry Jennings' [b]Impossible Divination No.2[/b] in the book, "[b]Jennings '67[/b]" written by Richard Kaufman.
Message: Posted by: SamChak (Aug 27, 2016 02:45PM)
[quote]On Jul 24, 2016, warren wrote:
I'm sure Paul Harris would be pleased to see his work being exposed on youtube !! [/quote]

From the technical standpoint, "Overkill" can be considered as a [b]20-hour Clock Trick[/b], with added ta-da ending.

Conjuring Arts Research Center Executive Director, Bill Kalush has discovered that the Clock Trick using the [b]Number Theory[/b] can be dated back to 1484 in Nicolas Chuquet's [b]Triparty[/b], but never published. The trick, however, is not performed with cards, but with coins or other objects, and arranged in a circle.

[youtube]XymUFenup_Y[/youtube]
Message: Posted by: JassTan (Nov 4, 2016 05:14PM)
I love performing the Overkill routine taught by Paul Harris, such a lovely routine.
Message: Posted by: warren (Nov 6, 2016 05:28AM)
[quote]On Aug 27, 2016, SamChak wrote:
[quote]On Jul 24, 2016, warren wrote:
I'm sure Paul Harris would be pleased to see his work being exposed on youtube !! [/quote]

From the technical standpoint, "Overkill" can be considered as a [b]20-hour Clock Trick[/b], with added ta-da ending.

Conjuring Arts Research Center Executive Director, Bill Kalush has discovered that the Clock Trick using the [b]Number Theory[/b] can be dated back to 1484 in Nicolas Chuquet's [b]Triparty[/b], but never published. The trick, however, is not performed with cards, but with coins or other objects, and arranged in a circle.

[youtube]XymUFenup_Y[/youtube] [/quote]


So are you saying it's ok to expose the effect on youtube then especially someone else's published and copyrighted handling if not I don't understand why you would quote me before going into your post.
Message: Posted by: SimonCard (Jan 4, 2017 10:06PM)
I remember in high school, someone showed me a trick by counting down cards to find my selection. During the next class, I list a equation based on his procedure to calculate where he put my card and passed him a note showing the result. I was kindda proud of it. :)
Message: Posted by: Max Hazy (Jan 24, 2017 05:34PM)
I think it's nice to point out here that as performers, we have to disguise the method with the presentation.

If the method is g****ck, you should use the presentation to go away from / eliminate the possibility of g****ck.
If the method is math, you should use the presentation to go away from / eliminate math.

In the OP effect in particular, I'd like to recommend the Jan Foster lecture at penguin. There's an effect there using this method... but man... he hides it so well, he justifies... he disguises... he gives a reason for things to be done... he erases the "procedure" from the memory of who watches that (pun intended). That presentation in particular is the one I'll use with this method, it's a really nice example of what I'm talking about here.

It's not only about logical disconnects. It's about making sense, justifying the actions, hiding the method and projecting what we want in their minds using the presentation.

Overkill will only be simple if you present it as something simple.

Cheers,

Max Hazy
Message: Posted by: Escamoteur (Jan 30, 2017 04:48PM)
I've not used this in quite a long time, but back in high school and college this was a killer routine for me. I only recall getting busted once, and it was by a friend who was rather maths focused. Otherwise I found it an excellent trick from the first Paul Harris book I ever purchased (Close Up Entertainer).

Carter
Message: Posted by: EndersGame (Jul 4, 2019 10:01PM)
[quote]On Aug 27, 2016, SamChak wrote:

From the technical standpoint, "Overkill" can be considered as a [b]20-hour Clock Trick[/b], with added ta-da ending.

Conjuring Arts Research Center Executive Director, Bill Kalush has discovered that the Clock Trick using the [b]Number Theory[/b] can be dated back to 1484 in Nicolas Chuquet's [b]Triparty[/b], but never published. The trick, however, is not performed with cards, but with coins or other objects, and arranged in a circle.[/quote]
[b]Final Destination[/b] by Paul Gordon belongs in this category as well.

[youtube]i0wpHT3QgS0[/youtube]
Message: Posted by: langston3711 (Jul 25, 2019 10:48AM)
Overkill is a great trick but one of my favorites in the category is Clockwork Woody by Woody Aragon from his Book in English. It's really good and can be a great way to end a session