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Topic: Dancing rose
Message: Posted by: mantova (Sep 14, 2011 10:21AM)
Hi,
I am interested in performing a stage routine with a dancing rose in a similar manner of dancing cane. I have tried to make it but I have a lot of problems that I usually do not find in the dancing cane especially in balancing the rose.
I do not like Viktor Voitko rose because is too long for me and it is not very natural.
Can anybody help me? May I buy it anywhere? Any suggestion in balancing it?
Thank you
Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (Sep 14, 2011 11:13AM)
My suggestion is to make it like your cane same balance and method. The rose does have to be a long stem rose, otherwise it will not act or handle anything like the cane does.

I do not think such an item is available on the commercial market.
Message: Posted by: magicians (Sep 14, 2011 12:25PM)
[quote]
On 2011-09-14 11:21, mantova wrote:
Hi,
I am interested in performing a stage routine with a dancing rose in a similar manner of dancing cane. I have tried to make it but I have a lot of problems that I usually do not find in the dancing cane especially in balancing the rose.
I do not like Viktor Voitko rose because is too long for me and it is not very natural.
Can anybody help me? May I buy it anywhere? Any suggestion in balancing it?
Thank you
[/quote]
I think you should seek a different method than a dancing cane gimmick. The rose may be more suited for a dancing hanky gimmick. I could see the Waltzing Mathilda gimmick giving animation to that Rose.
Message: Posted by: mantova (Sep 14, 2011 12:42PM)
Well I tried a lot like the dancing cane. Probably a rosebud and the stem ( that is thiner than the cane ) create the problems that we usually do not find in the dancing cane. Really a tried a lot but it is not so simple..the rose has not a smooth movement like the cane....sometimes it lose the balance..
Message: Posted by: Dr_J_Ayala (Sep 14, 2011 12:46PM)
I agree with Ian. In the past I have done various different things, including using a zombie-style gimmick to accomplish that, and m******c fingertips too, all with a normal length rose. I think the Waltzing Matilda idea would work perfectly and would also eliminate the need for an obscenely long-stemmed rose/flower.
Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (Sep 14, 2011 01:08PM)
Mantova, you really have to tell us what kind of effect you are going for in your rose effect. The Dancing Rose will work if properly made, the other ideas above will work if properly made.

They do sell an Acrobatic Rose on the market much like Magic Ian suggests, but it is more of a Zombie effect and very limited in movement.

So you have to decide the scope of your idea and go from there. The thinness of the stem has nothing to do with the Dancing Cane principle being used. There is more to a Dancing Cane then you realize I guess. Sorry but I cannot tell you on an open forum, so I can only say get out your Dancing Cane and take a look at it or buy Lewis Ganson book on the Cane and he will tell you the features it needs.

http://www.llpub.com/zenshop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=21&products_id=2691
Message: Posted by: 61magic (Sep 15, 2011 10:54AM)
Mantova, Magicians is right on with his advice.
The principle used in the dancing cane would not adapt well to something as small and light as a rose. The stem would need to be too long to give the necessary balance to make it work, and as you know it would look very unnatural.
There are a few versions of the dancing rose available on the market using a version of the zombie principle, also as Magicians said the Waltzing Matilda principle is available on a commercial version.
Message: Posted by: makeupguy (Sep 15, 2011 01:12PM)
It MAY not work with a rose for various reasons.

There's a lot of physics going on here that people aren't thinking about. An object that is short and light will not make a good "dancing cane"... it's not about the weight.. it's about the inertia and momentum. The physics for a dancing cane is along the same lines as a tightrope walker.. the longer the pole the tightrope walker carries.. the easier it is to get across. The shorter pole.. the harder. The center of gravity changes when the pole gets shorter... and makes keeping balanced MUCH harder.

Then there is also the aerodynamic issue. The bloom on the rose provides VERY different drag than the stem aerodynamically speaking.. The speed and the direction will make that drag vary quite a lot.. making the rose go off balance during speed or directional changes.

The best thing to do is to make the rose heavier... not a lot.. but enough so that the momentum will overcome the drag of the bloom. The total weight probably doesn't need to be much more than a couple of ounces... but the stem will need to be as long as you can comfortably make it.. thisis one of the cases where the length DOES matter.
Message: Posted by: magicians (Sep 15, 2011 02:06PM)
I just experimented with several methods. The Dancing standard gimmick has no control and wobbles no matter where I weight it or mount it due to the stem being ever-so flexible. That changes the dynamics after the very first movement. If the stem could remain rigid, or the petals didn't flutter, it might have a chance.
-----------------
The waltzing gimmick works, but is not effectively a "dance" move and zero control. It bobs up down and then ellipses wildly. The one method I was successful with (using a floral display rose), was using balloon sticks. This has lighting problems, but a 1' balloon stick tethered to just above the balance point works wonderfully just as a cane moves and also allowed me to have the rose spin as well as dance. The rose I used was a novelty lit rose with a battery pack and led bulb.
Now, this method, I have gotten away with, but the stick has to be held or mounted on a finger with velcro.
-----------
Again, Make-up guy is right about the drag of the leaf and rose head. The battery pack (without battery) was perfect ballast to keep the rose upright during the dance plus the stick was firmly attached and does not allow any wobble.
Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (Sep 15, 2011 03:28PM)
It is a rose not a piece of wood. It dances and floats throught the air.

The rose is not a carnation, so the rose should be semi opened, thust cutting down drag. They can be purchased in the state at dollar and hobby stores. The stem, I hear, "I don't like it.", but there are long stem roses, call any floral shop.

The stem with the artifical rose is repalced with a dowel or heavy gage wire from the hardware store. It can be bent to look more natural if desired. After properly designed leaves are wired to the stem and placed for proper balance, a small hole is drilled for the gimmick.
Message: Posted by: Harry Murphy (Sep 15, 2011 07:13PM)
I looked at this as an interesting “poser” (Al Capp’s description of a problem that required some thought and probably didn’t have a pat solution). I liked Ian’s solutions and when he said they didn’t work I decided to take a more traditional route.

I make my own floating canes out of stiff rolled paper hollow, tapered, paper tube spray painted actually). So I tried to make a long stem rose using a similar technique. I used a silk rose from the dollar store (closed condition). Took it off the plastic stem it came on. I took out some of the pedals from the inside of the bud to lighten it.

I rolled and glued green tissue paper into a paper rope to make a long (13 inch) stem. I glued the silk rose to this stem and used two silk leaves glued down the stem to help balance the thing. I added a one-once fishing weight to the bottom of the contraption to give it final balance. The line (thread) is threaded well above the balance point (a needle threaded with the monofilament simply pushed through).

It sort of works. The balance is still a bit off. I can make it rise from a vase (a la’ rising pencil) and make it float to my waiting hand. I can make it dance between my hands (actually float from one hand to the other). I am not satisfied with the look of the thing and not totally satisfied with the effect. I give my effort a C-. :(
Message: Posted by: Dr_J_Ayala (Sep 15, 2011 10:14PM)
Harry has some great ideas there. One thing you have to keep in mind, which also may work to a great advantage here, is that a normal silk rose, and indeed even most real roses, may look small and not-so-visible on stage to an audience. If you beef up the stem on a silk rose or flower, say with florist tape and maybe tightly wrapped layers of green tissue paper (or some other light material that will lend a realistic stem look and coloration), you can make it more visible from stage, and the extra weight from the added materials will help add to the balance. Obviously this would have to be experimented with because you would have to place everything strategically, but this idea may work. I will have to play around with it myself and see what I can come up with.

Great ideas, everyone. I am sure that with the right modifications, the Waltzing Matilda could be made to work.
Message: Posted by: mantova (Sep 16, 2011 11:32AM)
Harry, I am very glad you have tried...I did the same and the rose reaaly has the same moviment of the dancing can but very often it loses yhe balance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_xKV6XuZhM

I have bought the rose in the video above but it does not work. I do not know if all the roses he sells do not work or only mine! Indeed I will try again ...
Message: Posted by: makeupguy (Sep 16, 2011 12:12PM)
Mantova:

Try adding 15- 25 gram fishing weight to each end of the rose.. I think you'll find you have amazing control... and that the whole rose will float MUCH better!!
Message: Posted by: Harry Murphy (Sep 16, 2011 12:31PM)
As stated right above, adding a bit of weight may help. I suspect that the balance point is off a bit too. a little adjustment and a little weight will probably fix the problem for you. It will take a bit of experimentation.
Message: Posted by: mantova (Sep 16, 2011 12:40PM)
Thank you...I'll try...
Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (Sep 16, 2011 02:47PM)
[quote]
On 2011-09-16 12:32, mantova wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_xKV6XuZhM

I have bought the rose in the video above but it does not work. I do not know if all the roses he sells do not work or only mine! Indeed I will try again ...
[/quote]

That is my exact design I explained earlier. Another creation stolen from me.
--------------------------------------------

I will say the Dancing and Floating Cane is very difficult to learn to perform. It takes months of constant work to get the knack on the operation. The same goes for this Rose creation.

It may help you to find a song to perform to, as this also needs rythum in your timing to operate well for you. If you cannot get the Dancing part down, then at least you can do the floating between the hands and rising moves. The audiences like these as well.
Message: Posted by: oldi (Sep 17, 2011 01:35PM)
Viktor Voitkos dancing rose:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRstE1uIDTQ
Message: Posted by: Harry Murphy (Sep 17, 2011 02:54PM)
Viktor's LEDs on a modified dancing cane looks nice but doesn't look even remotely like a rose. It looks like something that was made for the stage (as it was). Still a nice routine.
Message: Posted by: mantova (Sep 17, 2011 05:18PM)
I have been working wuth dancing cane since I was a chid...Now I am 49. I have a good music for a dancing rose now...I hope I will be able to ssolve this problem...Thank you...
Message: Posted by: Fábio DeRose (Sep 17, 2011 06:35PM)
[quote]
On 2011-09-17 15:54, Harry Murphy wrote:
Viktor's LEDs on a modified dancing cane looks nice but doesn't look even remotely like a rose. It looks like something that was made for the stage (as it was). Still a nice routine.
[/quote]

Oh, it does.

It does look like an LED rose, lol. It looks beautiful upclose, and works really well.
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (Sep 18, 2011 03:38AM)
Fabio, do you have Viktor Voitkos' Dancing Rose? If so, I have some questions to ask you. Because I was thinking about purchasing it for the flower theme act I am working on.
Message: Posted by: Fábio DeRose (Sep 18, 2011 11:02AM)
I don't have one, but I did play around with one for a few weeks. A friend borrowed me his so I could experiment a bit before decidng to purchase it or not. I had already seen it upclose at Voitko's lecture, but not actually used it yet.

It was the version 2. It looks very good, even upclose. The LED's help covering up the secret even in well-lit environments. It breaks down in 3 pieces, which *must* be well taken care of - Victor does provide a good customer service (I have his Fying Linking Rings), but if one of the pieces is broken, it's gone - The material the rose is made of (Acrylic, if I remember well) seems fragile, and transport, rehearsal and presentation should definitely consider this factor. It comes in a sweet looking velvet bag, whih is sturdy, but only for carrying it on. I strongly recommend a case being built for it.

The electronics are very simple, so if any intern part breaks off extensive use, you can always solve the problem easily given you know basic soldering. Batteries will last for quite a long time, but do keep a few spare ones if you happen to perform at cruise ships or places where batteries would be difficult to find.

Overall, its balance is perfect. I have seen people complaining about it, but it is definitely a matter of practice. The DVD showcases many original moves and Victor's most excellent advices on stage lighting.

Bottomline, I did't buy one because a)it seemed too fragile for travelling and b)I had starded working on a custom light-up cane, which came to fruitition one year later with every single touch I wanted.
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (Sep 18, 2011 12:36PM)
Thanks Fabio. You answered every question I could think of. :)
Message: Posted by: Anatole (Sep 18, 2011 01:17PM)
I would think that addressing the balance of a dancing rose would be easier than addressing the balance of the dancing/vanishing cane since the balance point of the former would probably be consistent at every performance as opposed to the balance point of the latter. I solved that balance problem with my dancing cane to streamer effect. If you PM me, I can provide some suggestions.

An alternative would be to consider doing the Kevin James "Floating Rose" instead. You can see the video of Kevin doing it at: http://www.kjmagic.com/catalog/videos/rose.html
From what I read in the ads, the DVD has been updated from its original release.

and of course David Copperfield made Kevin's Floating Rose into a showpiece. You can watch David's performance of it at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfRtC8GMLl8&feature=related

----- Amado "Sonny" Narvaez
Message: Posted by: Fábio DeRose (Sep 18, 2011 05:08PM)
[quote]
On 2011-09-18 13:36, Dynamike wrote:
Thanks Fabio. You answered every question I could think of. :)
[/quote

You're welcome!

PS:

7 of Spades.
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (Sep 20, 2011 08:46PM)
Do you think it is a good chance two roses can be dancing the same time? Some magicians use two dancing canes the same time.
Message: Posted by: mantova (Sep 21, 2011 05:28AM)
Dynamike...it is so difficoult with a single rose! I wish you all my best...
Message: Posted by: magicians (Sep 21, 2011 07:46AM)
[quote]
On 2011-09-20 21:46, Dynamike wrote:
Do you think it is a good chance two roses can be dancing the same time? Some magicians use two dancing canes the same time.
[/quote]
Dancing two canes is so tough, unless the balance is perfect, I believe that if you have seen two cane dances, they are actually one piece of apparatus.
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (Sep 23, 2011 02:22PM)
I like challenges.
Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (Sep 23, 2011 02:34PM)
Dynamike, if you can do 2 canes at once, you have a perfect left and right brain thing going on. I have had the pleasure of only seeing 1 or 2 good performances of the Dancing Cane at magic conventions. It is hard to master, but I think a magician can dance, knows what a 2, 4, 6, 8 beat count is in music, and has natural rhythm, then you have half the requirement for doing a great performance.

The late Mike Rogers could start out wearing a pair of gloves, and remove the gloves while the cane danced in front of him. Pulling each finger of the glove.

The kick start is really good visual Fred Astaire type of move that looks very good. These kind of things impressed me more then the number of canes dancing at once.
Message: Posted by: magicians (Sep 23, 2011 02:43PM)
[quote]
On 2011-09-23 15:22, Dynamike wrote:
I like challenges.
[/quote]
The only success I have had is dancing a cane and performing waltzing mathilda at the same time. I wrote this up in June 2009 Parade.
Message: Posted by: Anatole (Sep 23, 2011 05:09PM)
Two points to consider in regard to a dancing rose:
1) I don't see anything at all wrong with using a larger than life rose. Magicians by their nature use objects that are larger than what audiences are familiar with, such as jumbo cards, jumbo coins, jumbo dice, jumbo golf balls, etc
2) I don't necessarily think that the length of a rose affects its propensity to be adapted to a dancing cane-type effect. Jeff McBride's "dancing canes" on youtube at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f90oAY8FTSI
would not be recognized by the average audience member as canes at all, but as wands whose length does not at all seem to affect the mechanics of the wands' movements.

I considered once the idea of having a large display of notes on stage similar to the ones shown here for Stephen Foster's "Old Folks at Home"
http://www.sheetmusicdigital.com/pdf/3/0/4/10000403.png
with the idea of removing a large half note from the display and using it a la the dancing cane. The "mechanics" of a large dancing half note should not be that much more difficult than the mechanics of Russ Walsh's Acrobatic Golf Club as shown at http://www.magicmgmt.com/magicshop/acrobaticgolfclub.html

----- Amado "Sonny" Narvaez
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (Sep 24, 2011 10:09PM)
[quote]
On 2011-09-21 08:46, magicians wrote:
Dancing two canes is so tough, unless the balance is perfect, I believe that if you have seen two cane dances, they are actually one piece of apparatus.
[/quote]
I am sure she was using separate apparatus. One cane went around her back while the other was moving in front of her the same moment. She did other movements with the canes too. She ended it by putting one down against the table, extending the routine with one cane dancing. She was a teenager in 1992. She won the Junior Abbotts Get-Together Contest.
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (Sep 25, 2011 05:11AM)
Her name is Stephanie.
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (Sep 26, 2011 12:35AM)
Her name is Stephanie Griswold. http://www.magicgettogether.com/galleryhtml2/1993gallery/images/magicgetogether_b%20%2825%29.jpg
Message: Posted by: magicians (Oct 3, 2011 11:02AM)
[quote]
On 2011-09-14 11:21, mantova wrote:
Hi,
I am interested in performing a stage routine with a dancing rose in a similar manner of dancing cane. I have tried to make it but I have a lot of problems that I usually do not find in the dancing cane especially in balancing the rose.
I do not like Viktor Voitko rose because is too long for me and it is not very natural.
Can anybody help me? May I buy it anywhere? Any suggestion in balancing it?
Thank you
[/quote]
I think I have the method down enough to show a quick clip. I have to mask the attachment somehow.
Film at eleven.
Message: Posted by: magicians (Oct 3, 2011 02:10PM)
[quote]
On 2011-10-03 12:02, magicians wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-09-14 11:21, mantova wrote:
Hi,
I am interested in performing a stage routine with a dancing rose in a similar manner of dancing cane. I have tried to make it but I have a lot of problems that I usually do not find in the dancing cane especially in balancing the rose.
I do not like Viktor Voitko rose because is too long for me and it is not very natural.
Can anybody help me? May I buy it anywhere? Any suggestion in balancing it?
Thank you
[/quote]
I think I have the method down enough to show a quick clip. I have to mask the attachment somehow.
Film at eleven.
[/quote]
Never mind..it looks terrible.