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Topic: The Cylinder and Coins by John Ramsay
Message: Posted by: magicday (Sep 2, 2003 03:45PM)
Any review for The Cylinder and Coins by John Ramsay.
I heard this set is made by Morgan. But I don't find any dealer have it.

Thanks for your help.
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Sep 2, 2003 04:17PM)
A friend of mine brought up this effect when we were chatting last weekend, quite apart from this thread. According to him he's only seen John Carney perform it because it is incredibly difficult. (That wasn't his [i]exact[/i] phrasing.) When a student of Marlo's describes something as "incredibly difficult", he knows whereof he speaks. He also said that the effect is quite amazing.
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Sep 2, 2003 04:20PM)
[quote]
On 2003-09-02 16:45, magicday wrote:
Any review for The Cylinder and Coins by John Ramsay.
I heard this set is made by Morgan. But I don't find any dealer have it.

Thanks for your help.

[/quote]

C&C is a trick created by John Ramsay. I believe he started performing it back in the 1940s (not sure though). It is not sold by anyone. You must collect the props yourself and/or have them made; magic wand, leather cylinder, piece of cork, coins, etc.

Most magicians that perform it use "Morgan" silver dollars, although John Ramsay apparently used Half Crowns which are smaller.

It is a great trick but requires a lot of practice, on the order of months and months and months.

And, oh yeah, months!

If you are really interested in it, get John Carney's Carneycopia book and study his version, and get Victor Farelli's manuscript for the John Ramsay original,
or Andrew Galloway's version of the original in "The Ramsay Classics" (expensive book).
Other version exist as well..
David Roth has his own version in his book,
Paul Wilson has a version in 5x5 Scotland,
Bob Kohler has a version but it's not published yet.

Carney apparently is working on a DVD of his version, Kohler on his.

A video performance only version can be purchased on John Carney's "Up Close and Far Away" video, and Andrew Galloway's "John Ramsay Video"

This is a serious piece of work, however, and not something you'll be doing after dinner this evening to impress your friends.

I personally prefer Carney's version to the others. Maybe because I spent months and months and months learning that one and I'm still too exhausted to attempt the others. :)


Best of luck,
Frank
Message: Posted by: mattpuglisi (Sep 2, 2003 04:25PM)
I believe Thomas Wayne offers a set for this routine, and Dan Watkins has given it a glowing review. There is information on this set at Watkin's website, CoinVanish.com. Look for it in the "Product Reviews" section. (You will need to answer a question to read the information.)

:spinningcoin:
Message: Posted by: gforster (Sep 2, 2003 04:27PM)
I hope I don't sound too stupid asking this, but can someone describe the effect? there are many "classics" out there that I have yet to learn of, as my magic "education" has only been in the last year.
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Sep 2, 2003 04:38PM)
EFFECT:
4 silver dollars are displayed as is a empty cylinder and a slice of cork.

the cork is covered with the cylinder.

4 coins are vanished one at a time.

upon inspection, the coins re-appear inside the cylinder, UNDER the cork!

next, the coins are covered with the cylinder.
and the cork is taken in the hands.

the coins reappear in the hands, the cork is found by itself, inside the cylinder!

It's juicy!

Frank

[quote]
On 2003-09-02 17:25, mattpuglisi wrote:
I believe Thomas Wayne offers a set for this routine, and, Dan Watkins has given it a glowing review. There is information on this set at Watkin's website, CoinVanish.com. Look for it in the "Product Reviews" section. (You will need to answer a question to read the information.)

:spinningcoin:
[/quote]

***DELETED STUFF***

I had the shoe repair guy in town make me a leather cylinder for $10. It works perfect for me.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Sep 2, 2003 05:40PM)
The trick is John Ramsay's take on the 'cap and pence'.

Ross Bertram has a very similar method published.

What attracts folks to the routine is the hope of garnering some insight into what make John Ramsay so memorable. The routine, and a the rest of his material is not particularly difficult. It did however completly fool the 'in' crowd at the time { 1920s }

For some the routine is a sort of badge to denote moving from routines focussing on just a couple of coins to those involving 'more'. For others, a challenge to make coins vanish in some way that builds suspense. The vanishes are supposed to look better and more convincing as they happen.

'The Ramsay Classics' was 24.99 when published. Perhaps H&R could find you a copy.

These routines give you the opportunity to work from mechanics alone. No hint of how John Ramsay performed is presented. I sought out Vernon and Schawartzman on this.

The big puzzle and challenge of that routine... and John Ramasy's work in general has to do with performing the tricks. Just doing them presents the audience with a puzzle, and nothing more. John Ramsay was liked, and some comments are made here and there about his sense of humor. Such is the challenge of his material.

The props are cheap. That was one of his jokes. Scotsman=cheap.

I won't comment on how his routines are performed. Might have to visit Scotland and look up Mr Galloway.
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Sep 2, 2003 05:54PM)
Davenport used to sell a cardboard tube set. :spinningcoin:
Message: Posted by: Jeffrey Cowan (Sep 2, 2003 06:08PM)
Within the last 18 months, Bob Kohler had a long post either here or on the Genii forum (can't remember which) about this classic effect. It's a masterpiece, but also (as Frank discussed) a challenge for any magician that will require at least a year of sweat, practice and focus. It's a knuckle-buster, and once you've got it down, THEN you've got to learn to make it entertaining -- at least if you work for lay audiences. Plus, in the old days there was no one person you could go to for the props. . .
Message: Posted by: Dan Watkins (Sep 2, 2003 06:28PM)
Frank,

Thomas only makes the cylinder with cocobolo end caps and the coin stacks.

The prices he gave when I wrote the review were as follows:

Two types of cylinders:
$1 cylinder w/caps - $105.00
$1/2 cylinder w/caps - $90.00

Three types of coin stacks
Four coin $1/2 stack - $72.00
Three coin $1 stack - $90.00
Four coin $1 stack - $100.00

Thomas also provides a $10 credit if you provide your “top” coin to match the coins you use for $1 size stacks.

Thomas also sells very expensive custom wands. The cork slice you can get after drinking a bottle of wine :)
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Sep 2, 2003 07:02PM)
Producing the bottle from a tiny cylinder is probably a better trick.

offering the audience some of the wine may lead to them liking you more too.
Message: Posted by: wsduncan (Sep 3, 2003 12:45AM)
For those who are keeping score Vernon's version is detailed in the Art Of Close Up books by Lewis Ganson.

Not too different from Ramsay's if I recall.
Message: Posted by: da5id (Sep 3, 2003 10:10AM)
I just watched Carney's DVD "Carney on Ramsey: lessons in misdirection". It is amazing and humbling. Highly recommended viewing material for all.
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Sep 3, 2003 10:13AM)
oops. I forgot about the Vernon method in Ganson's book. Yes, it is like the Ramsay method except for the props. I think that one uses a rolled up dollar bill and poker chips???

Johnathan, you've got quite a sense of humor about this effect. I think you've got some info about this trick's history up your sleeve that I have yet to learn from you.

By the way, you can often find a copy of The Ramsay Classics on ebay usually for around $100.

Frank
Message: Posted by: Dan Watkins (Sep 3, 2003 10:20AM)
The great part of this routine is the structure. In method, it is simply, a one at a time vanish and reproduction of a group of coins, however the effect is far from it. The effect is a translocation of coins to an impossible location.

This very structure takes the heat off your hands when you most need it. There has been a lot of talk lately about perfect coin vanishes, etc. in the "Show Me the Money" forum. In my opinion, one of the best coin vanishes is when you make the coin apparently appear somewhere else - it takes all the heat off the vanished coin.

The spectators stop looking for the coins you vanished when they see a little pile of coins on the table.

Also for the reproduction they are focusing on how you are going to get coins out of the cylinder, and aren't looking for them in your hands. Its just a wonderful routine for directing the audience's focus in the wrong places at the right time, and so much more than a simple - "See my 3 coins, now they are gone, now they are back" routine.
Message: Posted by: John Kokot (Sep 3, 2003 11:44AM)
Watching Tim Conover's exquisite performance of this routine will lead you to believe that he has trap doors in his hands. Those who desire to make this routine appear magical may have to make a deal with the Devil in order to obtain the requisite chops.
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Sep 3, 2003 12:55PM)
I've heard Bob Kohler speak highly of Tim Conover's performance. Where, oh where, can Tim be seen doing this???
Message: Posted by: Dan Watkins (Sep 3, 2003 03:20PM)
Tim is the one that taught Kohler the routine, though Kohler has his own handlings now.

Kohler was trying to put together a C&C DVD that would feature his handlings as well as Connover's, but I don't think it ever came together.

[url=http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/search_post.php?topic=17280&forum=3&post=148407]Here[/url] is the post that Kohler wrote about it.
Message: Posted by: VernonOnCoins (Sep 3, 2003 03:59PM)
Da5id,
where did you get the Carney on Ramsay tape? Is that released already
Message: Posted by: Dan Watkins (Sep 3, 2003 05:01PM)
He released some at FISM - he is holding off on the public release until he finishes up some footage on one of his other DVDs so people can take advantage of package deals.
Message: Posted by: Larry Davidson (Sep 3, 2003 05:35PM)
[quote]
On 2003-09-03 12:44, John Kokot wrote:
Watching Tim Conover's exquisite performance of this routine will lead you to believe that he has trap doors in his hands.
[/quote]

Everything Tim does is exquisite. He's one of the top magicians for laymen and fries magicians in the process.

Larry
Message: Posted by: Chris S (Sep 3, 2003 10:34PM)
You can find Tim on the Tomfoolery Anniversay Bash tape. His performance is FLAWLESS. I can't think of anybody else who comes close to his smoothness (even Carney).

I have said it before, though, and I will say it again. The props do not make sense. As Jon alluded to, this was a routine designed to take in "the boys" and while there have been handling refinements over the years, the inherent "oddness" of the props remain. This routine is begging to be contemporised/commercialised to make it more logical for laypeople. It has almost gotten to the point where it is more of a rite of passage for the coin worker rather than a workable routine for the lay public. I know people are out there performing it (and from their accounts doing quite well), but the old chestnut that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" does not seem to apply here (indeed, some of the beast leaps in magic have occurred when people have defied convention and taken a different road). No matter how well you provide a quasi-justification for the leather cylinder and cork, they will always be "props" to a laypersons eyes.
Message: Posted by: Dan Watkins (Sep 4, 2003 02:13AM)
[quote]
On 2003-09-03 23:34, Chris S wrote:
they will always be "props" to a laypersons eyes.
[/quote]

So are sponge balls, Morgan Silver Dollars, Silver half dollars, English Pennies, linking rings, Dean's Boxes, etc. etc.

Magic routines are allowed to have props imho. The strangest things can be explained with the proper story.
Message: Posted by: Chris S (Sep 4, 2003 06:37AM)
Yes, but its a shorter trip for the audience to beleive that magic is happening when they are seeing either items that are common in their everyday lives and hence they do not expect to be the conduit for magical events (such as Healed and Sealed Soda), or items that, although perhaps slightly less familiar, are capable of having their presence being justified effectively (think coin purse,for example). The leather cylinder and the piece of cork satisfy neither of these requirements.

I have given this a lot of thought and the result seems,at least to me, to be a very simple rule - the more unfamiliar the prop (or the greater NUMBER of props required),the further you distance the audience from where they are now to the conclusion that what they are going to see is due to magic, and not the inherent secrets of the prop (whether they actually exist or not is irrelevent - perception is king). Don't get me wrong, you can still take them to that moment of astonishment (thank you PH!), but you will need to not only meet their expectations that the strange object in front of them is going to make magic happen, but exceed those expectations. When it comes to the C&C, which is really "just" a transposition like any other, the burden of justifying a leather cylinder and a piece of cork becomes a fight that you need not wage at all if you use a little creativity and lateral thinking to redesign the props. The answers are all there to acheive this and bring the audience just that little bit closer to the edge...

By the way, I could not agree more about the sponge balls and Dean's box being odd props, but the coins do not really belong in the same category. Laypeople know that foreign and old coins come in all varieties and the excuse that you like to use beautiful coins for a beautiful effect is completely rational in the layperson's mind (don't get me wrong though,I ALWAYS would use the current money whenever it is possible in preference to the smoothest Morgan). Once again, the rule seems to fit - to break past the "trick coin" perception barrier, your effect is going to have to be something very special. You can almost entirely bypass this barrier by using the legal tender of the day.
Message: Posted by: Dan Watkins (Sep 4, 2003 10:01AM)
Chris,

I typically don’t carry around Cylinder and Coins – it’s definitely not an impromptu “do anywhere” routine. Most of the stuff I focus on is done with coins in my or the spectator’s hands done standing.

With that said – I have found that the introduction of a strange prop is not in itself a bad thing. Look at Roth’s routines like the Tuning Fork, The Globe, The Rainbow, the Portable Hole, The Funnel, The Sleeve, etc. they are unique props. David’s formal routines utilizing these strange items have literally made a reputation for him.

The Cylinder is no different. It has its time and place.

I am using Thomas Wayne's Cylinder with the cocobolo end caps so everything is self contained and easy to carry and launch right into - I also eliminated the use of a wand.

Last week I brought my cylinder and coins to work. When I get a spare moment I run through the vanishes. I JUST so happened to have the cylinder in my pocket when I walked into the employee lunch room. One of the employee’s wife was visiting and he immediately asked me to show her some magic.

I only had the cylinder on me at that moment so I did the routine. Neither of them saw the routine before, had no idea what I was going to do, and both almost died when I revealed the coins in the cylinder, under the cork. The immediate reversal also got a wonderful response.

Just a minute ago I went out to the shop and asked this guy what he thought about the props – did he find them strange, etc.? He told me that when I first took out the cylinder he had no idea what I was going to do. He did not know what the cork piece was for. But he said it was interesting because he did not know what I was going to do with them and it created curiosity in him. During the buildup of the routine – I plainly show the cylinder, show the cork slice, and explain that the routine is not so much about the cylinder or the little cork as it is about these coins… The cork does play an important part later in the routine, just for now remember that it is underneath the cylinder right here (as I put the cylinder over the cork on the table). Then move on.

He saw the props, saw that nothing was fishy about them, and put his attention on the coins as I instructed. He told me that the use of the cylinder and the cork became plain as day during the climax of the routine, that it was amazing that the coins could not only get in the cylinder but UNDER the cork. He did not feel that the props hindered the routine and he said it was amazing.

I did the routine for a handful of people that same day – every one of them reacted very strongly to the routine. I briefly asked a few of them if they felt that the cylinder or the cork confused them or hindered the routine in their eyes.

No one told me that the props were a problem; they all felt that it was an amazing routine. I had more than one comment that they found the items interesting and the fact that they do not know what is going to happen with them created interest.

I have come to my own personal conclusion that there are benefits to using strange objects that pique curiosity of the spectator. Your whole repertoire shouldn’t be that way – but I have received great responses from laypeople for C&C and it is fun to perform, so for now it’s a keeper.
Message: Posted by: only4card (Sep 4, 2003 02:21PM)
Dan,

I agree with your points. one of my old friend show me the C&C routine.It' s beautiful and amazing!

Personally I like C&C more than Dean's Explosion.
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Sep 5, 2003 10:54AM)
I thought everybody had a Dean's Box?

Personally, I would never buy a Dean's Box for exactly the reason that I would not buy hardly any magic store magic. The "MAGIC" happens inside the box. I think this is bad, bad, bad.

Just like all the stage magicians in vegas producing tigers inside a box... bad, bad, bad.

Or worse yet... walking the lady back over to the funny floor when it's time to re-vanish her
(talk about BAD!)

I think props are great as long as they are not the shiney, magic store kind.
I went a Copperfield show last year and he vanished a duck and a "magic-looking" box...I rolled my eyes. Then he made it re-appear inside a "bunny-bucket" or whatever they're called (wooden bucket with split lid) and I thought "hey, magic".

But Dan is right. If it fit's the story, it will work.

C&C always gets a great reaction for me from audiences of all ages.

In fact the first time I performed it was for a bunch of my daughters friends 9-10 year olds at our home (interrupted their video and everything). I thought.. "I just have to go for it". After I was done, they all spontaneously clapped. That never happens in a totally impromptu "Hey, let me show you something" environment in my home, believe me.

Obviously, it's not the cylinder or the cork that made them clap, it's the whole thing; routine, presentation, props.

It's a classy piece with mystery and tension, and lots of magic.

And for the magician, what a lesson in directing audience attention!!!


[quote]
On 2003-09-04 03:13, Dan Watkins wrote:
[quote]
On 2003-09-03 23:34, Chris S wrote:
they will always be "props" to a laypersons eyes.
[/quote]

So are sponge balls, Morgan Silver Dollars, Silver half dollars, English Pennies, linking rings, Dean's Boxes, etc. etc.

Magic routines are allowed to have props imho. The strangest things can be explained with the proper story.
[/quote]
Message: Posted by: jerdunn (Sep 5, 2003 12:48PM)
[quote]
On 2003-09-05 11:54, Frank Starsini wrote:
Personally, I would never buy a Dean's Box for exactly the reason that I would not buy hardly any magic store magic. The "MAGIC" happens inside the box. I think this is bad, bad, bad.

Just like all the stage magicians in vegas producing tigers inside a box... bad, bad, bad.
[/quote]

To me there's a difference. Dean's Box is done close-up, spectators handle the box and ropes, they look inside the box, and so on. Very different from a box that's 100 feet away on a stage.

The box (like the silver coins and leather cylinder) is an object of interest to people. It lends itself to engrossing story lines. So I just don't agree that the box is "bad."

Maybe I'll have to learn a C and C routine, though.

Cheers,
Jerry
Message: Posted by: Larry Davidson (Sep 5, 2003 04:55PM)
I avoid almost all strange looking props.

I'm with Frank on Dean's box. It's much too alien looking for my liking which makes it nothing more than a puzzle in my opinion (albeit, a very good one). Yes, it can be examined, but so can many other puzzles.

The cylinder in Cylinder and Coins is not an everday object either, but it's nowhere near as alien looking as Dean's box and so I wouldn't necessarily avoid it. It's a question of degree.
Message: Posted by: only4card (Sep 5, 2003 05:19PM)
Any video for learning the C&C ? Thanks
Message: Posted by: Dan Watkins (Sep 5, 2003 07:52PM)
International Magic has a video called "The Magic of John Ramsay Vol. 1" (there are two volumes) that has John Ramsay's student, Andrew Galloway perform the original Ramsay handling. The original had a lot of extra feints and moves that were specific to trying to throw off magicians of the day - Ramsay purposely constructed stuff to specifically fool magicians.

The John Carney version written in Carneycopia is a streamlined version and one of the best. John will have a DVD available that teaches this routine it is already complete, but he hasn't yet offered it for public sale - keep an eye on his website http://www.carneymagic.com.
Message: Posted by: MJ Marrs (Sep 6, 2003 12:28AM)
That's very good news to hear about the Carney DVD! A while ago I purchased a cylinder and coin stack from Thomas Wayne. I've got Carney's book, but seeing everything will make learning from the book a little easier. I'm looking forward to finally starting to learn this routine.
Message: Posted by: Dan LeFay (Sep 6, 2003 05:23PM)
I had the pleasure to see John perform his C&C for me extremely up-close. The effect is not very well known where I live and I have to admit it was the very first time I ever saw anybody perform it. OK, John is not just anybody...
I think it's enough to mention his performance inspired me to go for it. It looks incredible in his hands.
I was not aware that his DVD was not available yet, since I have one. It's worth the waiting. I have rarely seen a DVD that's so in-depth on " only" two routines as this one. My favorite catch on the last FISM!

The routine is considered difficult. I think it might be even more difficult to make it work and make it interesting for the real world. But John has surely wet my appetite...
Message: Posted by: magicday (Sep 9, 2003 03:26PM)
What is the different between Andrew Galloway and John Carney 's routine or handling of C&C . Thanks
Message: Posted by: zhuanan (Mar 5, 2012 09:42AM)
[quote]
On 2003-09-02 18:40, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
The trick is John Ramsay's take on the 'cap and pence'.

Ross Bertram has a very similar method published.

What attracts folks to the routine is the hope of garnering some insight into what make John Ramsay so memorable. The routine, and a the rest of his material is not particularly difficult. It did however completly fool the 'in' crowd at the time { 1920s }

For some the routine is a sort of badge to denote moving from routines focussing on just a couple of coins to those involving 'more'. For others, a challenge to make coins vanish in some way that builds suspense. The vanishes are supposed to look better and more convincing as they happen.

'The Ramsay Classics' was 24.99 when published. Perhaps H&R could find you a copy.

These routines give you the opportunity to work from mechanics alone. No hint of how John Ramsay performed is presented. I sought out Vernon and Schawartzman on this.

The big puzzle and challenge of that routine... and John Ramasy's work in general has to do with performing the tricks. Just doing them presents the audience with a puzzle, and nothing more. John Ramsay was liked, and some comments are made here and there about his sense of humor. Such is the challenge of his material.

The props are cheap. That was one of his jokes. Scotsman=cheap.

I won't comment on how his routines are performed. Might have to visit Scotland and look up Mr Galloway.



[/quote]

Hi Jonathan:


As per your earlier quote, you mentioned that H & R can could find a copy of the Ramsay Classics. May I know who/where is H & R? I would really love to obtain a copy to learn the magic of John Ramsay.

Thank you!
Message: Posted by: Harry Murphy (Mar 5, 2012 11:06AM)
H & R magic books can be found at:
http://www.magicbookshop.com

Ain't google grand!
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Mar 5, 2012 04:48PM)
Dean Dill has devised a Coins and Cylinder routine that even I can do... it is totally awesome and has an added kicker climax that will fry magicians and laymen alike.
Message: Posted by: jerdunn (Mar 9, 2012 10:45AM)
Pete -- will Dean Dill be releasing his routine?

Thanks,
Jerry
Message: Posted by: helder (Dec 11, 2012 08:25AM)
Great presentation here of this classic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6zTyzyUlxE

Love it.


Does anyone know any news about the Kohler dvd?
Message: Posted by: John C (Jan 1, 2019 01:40PM)
One of the best IMHO versions of this classic.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBzaLxaiBhA&t=450s
Message: Posted by: Gipstein (May 10, 2020 11:57AM)
I have been doing magic over 50 years. I saw Eric Mead do this on Penn & Teller and was intrigued. I have a stack of JFKs and a cylinder on order. In playing with my various coins and gaffs in thinking about whether to pursue this trick, I realized that using my John Journey triple split JFK and a sh***, making the 4 coins disappear and reappear is retentively simple,. I have used the triple split as part of a stand alone routine for years. Along with the sh***, the coins combine into a single one, ultimately, which makes handling them and concealing them not so knuckle busting. With a little thought, they can displayed in ways that make them all seem quite legit (two sided). I will see if my theory on this works out when I start to perform it. My version would not use a wand, though it could. The overall effect is very magical, as Mead and others to be found on YouTube elegantly show. If using some gaffs to help make it simpler, I will do so. Only magicians care about methods, and if a simpler method achieves the same effect as complex ones, I will always go for simple. I don't care about proving myself as a knuckle-buster champ, just as a magician presenting an entertaining bit of impossibility and wonder. That said, even using the triple split/sh*** the routine is not that easy or self-working. I will also play with using the coins before or after with a routine by Gea, or double-deception, or whatever. The C&C certainly stands alone and maybe should be left alone. But once the coins are out, maybe a little more could be done with them. As for props being unusual, I have never had anyone find that an issue. Since I have worked for National Geographic such of my career I can get away with stories of exotic places and times and justify props that way. But even when I don't do this, I think folks just sit up and watch and don't get into the props too much unless we direct them to or over-justify why we are using them. I don't run if I;'m not being chased.
Message: Posted by: John C (May 11, 2020 06:03PM)
I do not believe there exists an “easy” way to do this effect.

It is raw, unadulterated skill. Period.

The ironic thing about it is....John Ramsey wasn’t even a magician. He was a grocer. Haha
Message: Posted by: John C (May 11, 2020 06:08PM)
[quote]On Sep 4, 2003, Chris S wrote:
Yes, but its a shorter trip for the audience to beleive that magic is happening when they are seeing either items that are common in their everyday lives and hence they do not expect to be the conduit for magical events (such as Healed and Sealed Soda), or items that, although perhaps slightly less familiar, are capable of having their presence being justified effectively (think coin purse,for example). The leather cylinder and the piece of cork satisfy neither of these requirements.

I have given this a lot of thought and the result seems,at least to me, to be a very simple rule - the more unfamiliar the prop (or the greater NUMBER of props required),the further you distance the audience from where they are now to the conclusion that what they are going to see is due to magic, and not the inherent secrets of the prop (whether they actually exist or not is irrelevent - perception is king). Don't get me wrong, you can still take them to that moment of astonishment (thank you PH!), but you will need to not only meet their expectations that the strange object in front of them is going to make magic happen, but exceed those expectations. When it comes to the C&C, which is really "just" a transposition like any other, the burden of justifying a leather cylinder and a piece of cork becomes a fight that you need not wage at all if you use a little creativity and lateral thinking to redesign the props. The answers are all there to acheive this and bring the audience just that little bit closer to the edge...

By the way, I could not agree more about the sponge balls and Dean's box being odd props, but the coins do not really belong in the same category. Laypeople know that foreign and old coins come in all varieties and the excuse that you like to use beautiful coins for a beautiful effect is completely rational in the layperson's mind (don't get me wrong though,I ALWAYS would use the current money whenever it is possible in preference to the smoothest Morgan). Once again, the rule seems to fit - to break past the "trick coin" perception barrier, your effect is going to have to be something very special. You can almost entirely bypass this barrier by using the legal tender of the day. [/quote]


Let’s break it down to it’s simplest component. It’s called entertainment.
Message: Posted by: Gipstein (May 14, 2020 01:15PM)
I am not saying my method is so much easier. Rather, I think it is more convincing in that I can display my hands as quite empty more often that most of the presentations I have seen. I can do this effect with regular Morgans and one sh***, or even just 4 regular Morgans. But there are times when you just can't show your empty hands. My routine allows for totally clean displays of the coins and only 1 or 2passing moments when I have to conceal a palmed coin. I think that makes it very magical. The coins simply vanish and reappear, even after I've show empty hands. It still takes careful sleights and routining to make it work but the gaff allows for displays that real coins do not. I've watched different routines and there are some awkward moves (IMHO) to deal with the 4 coins. For example, why pick up 3 or 4 coins just to put them down, retaining one? Why not just pick up one? I can do that. Anyway, I am very happy with how my routine is going. As far as justifying the props, I don't think I will worry too much about that. I may or may not use a cork. I ay use something else. It could even be a life saver. The cylinder makes sense as a way to cover the coins & the cork. Maybe I will add a lid and use it earlier in a dice effect. It looks like a dice cup. Then take off the cover. I'll see. I have found that either not mentioning I am using old coins works, or saying that I happen to like them for their beauty works, too. I find lay audiences are quite accepting of many things that we magicians sometimes worry they question. Its all about how they are presented, what context is established, and how strong the ultimate effect is.
Message: Posted by: John C (May 14, 2020 03:35PM)
[quote]On May 14, 2020, Gipstein wrote:
I am not saying my method is so much easier. Rather, I think it is more convincing in that I can display my hands as quite empty more often that most of the presentations I have seen. I can do this effect with regular Morgans and one sh***, or even just 4 regular Morgans. But there are times when you just can't show your empty hands. My routine allows for totally clean displays of the coins and only 1 or 2passing moments when I have to conceal a palmed coin. I think that makes it very magical. The coins simply vanish and reappear, even after I've show empty hands. It still takes careful sleights and routining to make it work but the gaff allows for displays that real coins do not. I've watched different routines and there are some awkward moves (IMHO) to deal with the 4 coins. For example, why pick up 3 or 4 coins just to put them down, retaining one? Why not just pick up one? I can do that. Anyway, I am very happy with how my routine is going. As far as justifying the props, I don't think I will worry too much about that. I may or may not use a cork. I ay use something else. It could even be a life saver. The cylinder makes sense as a way to cover the coins & the cork. Maybe I will add a lid and use it earlier in a dice effect. It looks like a dice cup. Then take off the cover. I'll see. I have found that either not mentioning I am using old coins works, or saying that I happen to like them for their beauty works, too. I find lay audiences are quite accepting of many things that we magicians sometimes worry they question. Its all about how they are presented, what context is established, and how strong the ultimate effect is. [/quote]

Make a video. Sounds exciting. Let’s see a demo.
Message: Posted by: magic.99 (Aug 2, 2020 08:15AM)
The ironic thing about it is....John Ramsey wasn’t even a magician. He was a grocer. Haha
While he was not a 'professional' magician, I always thought that Mr. Ramsay was an 'amateur' magician. Much more than just a "grocer"...Mush like the master Artruo de Ascanio was a lawyer, and considered himself an "amateur magician"...
Message: Posted by: magic.99 (Aug 2, 2020 08:19AM)
John Carney goes into very good detail, including the 'misdirection' needed for this routine on his wonderful 'Carney on Ramsay' DVD. If you want to study this routine, Carney's DVD is a must have.
Message: Posted by: Mad Jake (Aug 10, 2020 01:49AM)
[quote]On Aug 2, 2020, magic.99 wrote:
The ironic thing about it is....John Ramsey wasn’t even a magician. He was a grocer. Haha
While he was not a 'professional' magician, I always thought that Mr. Ramsay was an 'amateur' magician. Much more than just a "grocer"...Mush like the master Artruo de Ascanio was a lawyer, and considered himself an "amateur magician"... [/quote]

Could you possibly try to explain your remark in this post. I don't understand "Was not a magician."

-MJJ
Message: Posted by: Steven Leung (Aug 21, 2020 01:11AM)
The effect is not popular, in my opinion, due to the requirement of props, and props involve cost quite something (for dollar coins).

Over the years, I tried to get everything, but still missing the cork piece.

Cylinder and coins I really hope that I can perform one day.
Message: Posted by: MJ Marrs (Aug 21, 2020 01:52AM)
[quote]On Aug 21, 2020, Steven Leung wrote:
The effect is not popular, in my opinion, due to the requirement of props, and props involve cost quite something (for dollar coins).

Over the years, I tried to get everything, but still missing the cork piece.

Cylinder and coins I really hope that I can perform one day. [/quote]

Frank at The Ambitious Card includes a cork with his cylinders.

It took me forever to completely assemble a nice set of props for C & C: Bought an awesome cylinder with end caps from Thomas Wayne years ago along with a beautiful cocobola wand. Had a matching set of coins (Deans Set) and stack from Jamie Schoolcraft. A high quality close up pad from Dan & Dave. I loved the idea of the drink coaster as a small stage that Conover/Mead employed so I searched for a nice antique set of coasters rather than a cheap set. I really like the inherent congruence of the cork portion of the coaster matching the use of the small piece of cork as it has a nice bit of internal logic added. I bought Carney’s wonderful book as well as his DVD and even took a seminar with him in order to get started. I’m anxiously waiting for the Conover book to be finished up as I’d love to add some of the finesse from Eric Mead. It’s been a wonderful journey for a routine that I’ll work on forever. Like Michael Weber says, “done but never finished.”
Message: Posted by: theoriginalman (Apr 28, 2021 08:52PM)
Does anyone know what coins Eric Mead is using in his Fool Us routine?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBzaLxaiBhA&t=450s
Message: Posted by: MJ Marrs (May 2, 2021 09:19AM)
Those are soft Morgans.

By the way, anybody catch the awesome five seconds of Mead’s TT/3CM routine at the beginning of the “Fool Us” episode. It’s at the Intro section around the 30 second mark. Everything Eric does is so good. Super smooth.
Message: Posted by: Harry Murphy (May 7, 2021 04:36PM)
Chris Hannibal has a superior routine and handling of the C&C using a Push-up-Pop tube (stiff paper) and the necessary coins, etc. All the props are well motivated and do not seem out of place or like "props". It is all driven by a good story accompanied by the skill needed to make the routine entertaining and magical.

It can be found on his DVD set "The Truth from a Liar". Good stuff on the 2 volume set on top of a great handling of the C&C.
Message: Posted by: Rainboguy (May 7, 2021 05:30PM)
This trick is, in my opinion, one of, if not THE hardest trick in Magic to perform.

If you can do it without any of the coins talking, you're well on your way to becoming a MASTER. As JOHN C states above, it requires raw, unadulterated skill.

And yes, Eric Mead performed the best version I have ever seen. I suggest learning this from John Carney's Carneycopia.
Message: Posted by: Boomer (May 7, 2021 08:08PM)
I just bought the set from Tom Ladshaw's website. Arrived in a couple days and looks fantastic.
(Leather tube, walking liberty coins & stack included with little blocks.

$59US, which I thought was quite reasonable.

I've been reading through Carneycopia & Coin Magic to see what strikes me)


Dave
Message: Posted by: Magic Mark (May 8, 2021 11:01PM)
If the standard Cylinder & Coins routine is too challenging for you (it's too challenging for me, that's for sure), you might want to consider Sam King's single coin Cylinder & Coin routine (skip to 2:45 for the start of the routine):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX7Kz-M1Ddk

I purchased one of Sam's excellent leather cylinders and got his routine included. He does a great job of explaining every step of the routine and uses multiple camera angles.

His routine still requires skill and practice, but much less so than the standard Cylinder & Coins routine.

I have an immense amount of respect for Eric Mead. But I also know my own limitations. I have enough trouble clas**c p*lm*ng ONE coin, let alone several. Sam King's routine is perfect for me. Recommended!

Info in this thread:

https://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?forum=218&topic=727005


Mark