(Close Window)
Topic: The Authentic Indian Cups and Balls
Message: Posted by: Gary Kosnitzky (Oct 9, 2011 12:36PM)
The Authentic Indian Cups and Balls is about to be
available soon. Cups+Balls+the Work.

Here is a teaser:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaXnRm_wi0M

I hope you like it.
Message: Posted by: francisngkl (Oct 9, 2011 12:45PM)
Fantastic! Wow...

Francis
Message: Posted by: Gary Kosnitzky (Oct 9, 2011 12:51PM)
Thank you Francis.
Those are 2 words we all like to hear.
Thank you.

Gary
Message: Posted by: RobertSmith (Oct 9, 2011 01:59PM)
Very cool.
Message: Posted by: Harry Murphy (Oct 9, 2011 04:16PM)
Very smooth! Shows the hard work you put into it! Sweet!
Message: Posted by: Woland (Oct 9, 2011 05:24PM)
Excellent! Thanks for posting this. Lovely. It looks like the real work. Eager to see the release.
Message: Posted by: djkuttdecks (Oct 9, 2011 07:54PM)
Great work
-Lee
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Oct 9, 2011 08:36PM)
Looks good to me.
Message: Posted by: rannie (Oct 9, 2011 09:42PM)
I love it!
Message: Posted by: RS1963 (Oct 9, 2011 09:42PM)
Very nice Gary. When you were telling me about this about a year ago in Denny's shop in Vegas I was thinking this was still at least a few more years of work. I did't know would be sooner than that. Again very nice.

Randy.
Message: Posted by: Dr_J_Ayala (Oct 9, 2011 10:53PM)
Very nice work Gary - I cannot wait to see the rest!
Message: Posted by: cupsandballsmagic (Oct 10, 2011 02:07AM)
Nicely done!
Message: Posted by: Donnie Buckley (Oct 10, 2011 06:48AM)
You can see that there's a lot of research and technique in that teaser... very nice.
Message: Posted by: RS1963 (Oct 10, 2011 10:28AM)
You can say that again Donnie. I know Gary has been working on the project for quite awhile and when this does get released it will be something that all C&B workers should have regardless of if you ever do the Indian Cups and Balls or not. That's my thinking anyway.
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Oct 10, 2011 12:26PM)
[b]I need someone to help me get up after sitting on the floor.[/b] :kermit:
Message: Posted by: Gary Kosnitzky (Oct 10, 2011 06:03PM)
Thank you all for the kind words.
This may not be for everyone but I personally have had more fun learning and performing this trick than anything else.
It feels real good once you learn how to sit properly. Just like modern cups and balls you can get lost in practice and lose sleep.
Since I learned The Indian Cups and Balls aka Cheppum Panthum all my other magic has improved greatly and I am at peace with myself.
Thanks again for the supportive comments.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Oct 10, 2011 07:31PM)
Impressive - congrats Gary

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DMviA0gbO8

very close in form and rhthym to a native. No small accomplishment there. Kudos.
Message: Posted by: jazzy snazzy (Oct 10, 2011 07:56PM)
That's a real accomplishment Gary.
Looks spot on to me.
Message: Posted by: Bob Sanders (Oct 10, 2011 08:35PM)
Authentic? Check out Autumn Morning Star.

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=436883&forum=115&4
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Oct 10, 2011 08:45PM)
Was that a Columbus joke?
Message: Posted by: Dr_J_Ayala (Oct 10, 2011 09:34PM)
[quote]
On 2011-10-10 11:28, RS1963 wrote:
I know Gary has been working on the project for quite awhile and when this does get released it will be something that all C&B workers should have regardless of if you ever do the Indian Cups and Balls or not.
[/quote]
I quite agree, and so to should the Indian Cups and Balls book by Pete Biro be on every book shelf.

Jonathan was right Gary - and it is saying a lot when you can be compared (and rightfully so) to Shankar Jr.!
Message: Posted by: Gary Kosnitzky (Oct 10, 2011 11:35PM)
[quote]
On 2011-10-10 21:45, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Was that a Columbus joke?
[/quote]
Yes Jon. It is Thanksgiving or something and we are all going to eat out of a cornucopia.
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Oct 11, 2011 02:28PM)
Gary, that's a wonderful performance! A level I would like to achieve... :)

Doug
Message: Posted by: Gary Kosnitzky (Oct 11, 2011 02:53PM)
Thank you Doug.
I appreciate it.
Message: Posted by: ringmaster (Oct 11, 2011 09:32PM)
The only real Indian जादूगर I've seen used chrome plated Bosco cup, which he constantly juggled between passes, while chanting Gilli Gilli Gilli.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Oct 12, 2011 11:22AM)
Just because a person is from India and he performs the cups and balls does not make him an "Indian cups and balls performer." The chrome-plated Bosco cup pretty much eliminates that possibility.

It's like what Billy Sunday said: "If going to church on Sunday makes you a Christian, the walking into a barn would make you a cow."

I have seen Indian performers who tried to do something that resembled Cheppum Panthum, but it wasn't the real thing.

Gary has done it.

I can usually spot the work. This one went by me completely.

Great job, Gary!
Message: Posted by: Gary Kosnitzky (Oct 12, 2011 01:01PM)
Thank you Bill.
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Oct 12, 2011 01:03PM)
Agree with Bill.
Message: Posted by: Dr_J_Ayala (Oct 12, 2011 02:42PM)
[quote]
On 2011-10-12 14:03, Pete Biro wrote:
Agree with Bill.
[/quote]
I second that. I also could not see most of the work in the video from Gary and I have been doing Cheppum Panthum for a long time myself.
Message: Posted by: Gary Kosnitzky (Oct 12, 2011 04:20PM)
Thank you Pete and Dr J Ayala,
That is an old video.
I was breaking in at the time.
I have progressed since then.
I will put up a professionally made video.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Oct 12, 2011 06:29PM)
[quote]
On 2011-10-10 21:35, Bob Sanders wrote:
Authentic? Check out Autumn Morning Star.

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=436883&forum=115&4
[/quote]
Context - oh great pumpkin.

Posted: Oct 12, 2011 10:13pm
Getting back to Gary's work - congrats on crossing a cultural chasm to get a ritual/routine from another culture working.

You've completed the journey that Columbus was attempting and brought back some magic.

Kudos!
Message: Posted by: Gary Kosnitzky (Oct 12, 2011 10:54PM)
[quote]
On 2011-10-12 22:13, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Getting back to Gary's work - congrats on crossing a cultural chasm to get a ritual/routine from another culture working.

You've completed the journey that Columbus was attempting and brought back some magic.

Kudos!
[/quote]
Here is the magic I brought back (in a limited amount.)

http://s1093.photobucket.com/albums/i427/jadoosmagic/

These cups are designed functionally to help enable you to execute many different types of moves efficiently.
The balls are very special.
Message: Posted by: Stperformer (Oct 14, 2011 08:00AM)
Brilliant stuff Gary. Loved it!

Are you selling some of the Indian cups you brought back?

I have the smaller Morrisey, but am looking for something larger.

Nelson
Message: Posted by: ringmaster (Oct 14, 2011 12:11PM)
[quote]
On 2011-10-12 12:22, Bill Palmer wrote:
Just because a person is from India and he performs the cups and balls does not make him an "Indian cups and balls performer." The chrome-plated Bosco cup pretty much eliminates that possibility.

It's like what Billy Sunday said: "If going to church on Sunday makes you a Christian, the walking into a barn would make you a cow."

I have seen Indian performers who tried to do something that resembled Cheppum Panthum, but it wasn't the real thing.

Gary has done it.

I can usually spot the work. This one went by me completely.

Great job, Gary!
[/quote]Maybe it was Eddie Joseph in drag.
Message: Posted by: Gary Kosnitzky (Oct 14, 2011 12:32PM)
[quote]
On 2011-10-14 09:00, Stperformer wrote:
Brilliant stuff Gary. Loved it!

Are you selling some of the Indian cups you brought back?

I have the smaller Morrisey, but am looking for something larger.

Nelson
[/quote]
I am selling the cups and wands only at the moment.
I will be selling everything you will need to learn and perform Cheppum Panthum if there is a demand. If there is a demand I will also offer a book or two covering everything from theory,all the moves, making your own balls and routines.
PM me if you are interested.
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Oct 14, 2011 01:50PM)
This is incredible! I should hope there would be a demand! There is so little now...and this material is PRICELESS! Gary's performance is perfect! The timing, the relaxed attitude. No hype. Notice the lady's reaction. That is the kind of reaction I like!

Yes, I'm in. How long do I have to save for these? I don't imagine they're cheap! :)

Doug
Message: Posted by: Gary Kosnitzky (Oct 15, 2011 12:53PM)
I am overwhelmed by the responses I received from everyone.
I am starting a list for magicians who are interested in owning this effect.
I am wrapping up 3 books on Cheppum Panthum.
There will be a small book that will teach you how to make the best balls you ever owned.
The other 2 books will have all you need to know about the tools of the trade and all the moves.
I will also include routines.
My email is info@jadoosmagic.com
Let me know if you are interested.
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Oct 15, 2011 02:21PM)
Count me in.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Oct 15, 2011 08:39PM)
Me, too.

BTW, regarding Eddie Joseph, according to friends of mine who knew him well, he was better at writing up cups and balls moves than he was at doing any of the routines.
Message: Posted by: jazzy snazzy (Oct 15, 2011 09:36PM)
Has Shankar Jr.'s patter ever been translated to English?
I am curious to hear how it sounds.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Oct 16, 2011 02:19AM)
He probably performs it in English from time to time. He speaks English.
Message: Posted by: cupsandballsmagic (Oct 16, 2011 05:24AM)
[quote]
On 2011-10-15 21:39, Bill Palmer wrote:
Me, too.

BTW, regarding Eddie Joseph, according to friends of mine who knew him well, he was better at writing up cups and balls moves than he was at doing any of the routines.
[/quote]
Bill, I can see why they may have said that. I think his books should have a disclaimer! I don't believe mot of his stuff was used in the real world (or even tested out) at all.

Bri
[quote]
Here is the magic I brought back (in a limited amount.)

http://s1093.photobucket.com/albums/i427/jadoosmagic/

These cups are designed functionally to help enable you to execute many different types of moves efficiently.
The balls are very special.
[/quote]
Gary,

These look terrific! I have a set of Morrissey curtai.... erm I mean cups and they (IMHO) are not fit for purpose, these look great.
Bri
Message: Posted by: Gary Kosnitzky (Oct 16, 2011 06:59AM)
[quote]
On 2011-10-15 22:36, jazzy snazzy wrote:
Has Shankar Jr.'s patter ever been translated to English?
I am curious to hear how it sounds.
[/quote]
Cheppum Panthum was learned word for word the same way for a very long time.
It has always started -

Indha cheppu kali,Indha cheppu kali,Indha cheppu kali -
This cup is empty, this cup is empty, this cup is empty.

The rest of the patter is just the same. You are simply describing your actions.
In English it would sound too pedestrian. I learned all the Dravidian patter and sometimes throw a little in.
Some of the words like - Djigga, jaa, jaa, da, timi taka taa - mean nothing at all.
I will include the Dravidian patter with all the routines in the book.
Message: Posted by: cupsandballsmagic (Oct 16, 2011 07:21AM)
It was performed on the best of magic many years ago with the correct patter cadence etc, it was wonderful to watch. I'll see if I can find it on youtube
Message: Posted by: Tilman (Oct 16, 2011 08:44AM)
[quote]
On 2011-10-16 07:59, Gary Kosnitzky wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-10-15 22:36, jazzy snazzy wrote:
Has Shankar Jr.'s patter ever been translated to English?
I am curious to hear how it sounds.
[/quote]
Cheppum Panthum was learned word for word the same way for a very long time.
It has always started -

Indha cheppu kali,Indha cheppu kali,Indha cheppu kali -
This cup is empty, this cup is empty, this cup is empty.

The rest of the patter is just the same. You are simply describing your actions.
In English it would sound too pedestrian.
I learned all the Dravidian patter and sometimes throw a little in.
Some of the words like - Djigga, jaa, jaa, da, timi taka taa - mean nothing at all.
I will include the Dravidian patter with all the routines in the book.
[/quote]
Hello Gary,

Do you know in which Dravidian language the patter is (and whether it's used in its currently spoken form in the patter)?
And does that give us an idea of the origins of the trick?

Kind regards,
Tilman
Message: Posted by: Gary Kosnitzky (Oct 16, 2011 09:28AM)
I was told that it was Malayalam and I was also told it was Tamil.
I really don't know for sure.
As far as the origins of this trick is concerned not even Vazahkunnam had any idea.

I have a theory that the answer possibly may be in the artifacts concerning recreational gaming found in Mohenjo Daro.
One out of every 10 artifacts dug up in Mohenjo Daro was related to some kind of recreational gaming such as chess, playing cards, marbles and other unknown games with small balls. This means that the Europeans did not invent chess and playing cards or games with small balls.
I strongly believe that the coconut cups and balls were the precursor to the 3 shell game and they all originated in the Indus Valley 3500- 5000 years ago.
You would make more money from this as a gambling scam than a trick.
But what do I know?
Message: Posted by: fortasse (Oct 16, 2011 10:53AM)
Gary :

I clicked on the YouTube link in your original post but it says "Video removed by User". Will you be re-posting it?

Fortasse
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Oct 16, 2011 10:54AM)
The first time I saw Shankar Jr., perform his routine I was really enthralled. He spoke in a high voice (he was quite young) and it didn't matter that we could not understand his language. He gave me a set of cups and I began working on the routine, and subsequently found cups to market and created a new move with the cups. This is written up in my book "Indian Cups and Balls." When I devised my routine I talked about seeing a young boy do it and give you my impression of him. I speak in a high falsetto voice and my words are "Double Talk" fake words and I find it goes over much better doing this.

So... I tried the same thing with my Western Cups using "fake" Hungarian words (my family is from Budapest).
Message: Posted by: Tilman (Oct 16, 2011 12:07PM)
I was told by Shankar Jr. that the language he speaks when performing the cups and balls is typically not understood by his Indian audiences either. I imagine that his introduction of the trick for audiences in his state (Karnataka, where people would understand Kannada, Urdu or Telugu) could be pretty much the one he uses for English-speaking audiences: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DMviA0gbO8
Message: Posted by: Gary Kosnitzky (Oct 16, 2011 01:34PM)
[quote]
On 2011-10-16 11:53, fortasse wrote:
Gary :

I clicked on the YouTube link in your original post but it says "Video removed by User". Will you be re-posting it?

Fortasse
[/quote]
Hi Fortasse,
I will repost another video.
I really was not happy with the lasts video's quality and I thought my performance back then could use more improvement.
I am through the breaking in stage and can do better.
Gary

[quote]
On 2011-10-14 09:00, Stperformer wrote:
Brilliant stuff Gary. Loved it!

Are you selling some of the Indian cups you brought back?

I have the smaller Morrisey, but am looking for something larger.

Nelson
[/quote]
Hi Nelson,

I am selling the cups and wand only at the moment.
They are $175.
I am writing 3 books to be published ASAP.
There are a limited amount of cups.
You may purchase them now if you want to make sure you get them.

http://s1093.photobucket.com/albums/i427/jadoosmagic/

Gary
Message: Posted by: Stperformer (Oct 16, 2011 02:51PM)
Gary, I'm interested. :)

Will the cups cover a golf ball?
What are the inner dimensions?
Cheers,
Nelson
Message: Posted by: Woland (Oct 16, 2011 05:44PM)
I'm wondering if some of those syllables aren't the same or at least based on the syllables used in Carnatic music to represent rhythmic beats of different kinds.
Message: Posted by: Gary Kosnitzky (Oct 16, 2011 08:12PM)
[quote]
On 2011-10-16 18:44, Woland wrote:
I'm wondering if some of those syllables aren't the same or at least based on the syllables used in Carnatic music to represent rhythmic beats of different kinds.
[/quote]
I wondered if there was a connection to Carnatic music also. We think alike. I was told that the meaninless syllables were the equivalent to the meaningless syllables one might hear in our songs and nursery ryhmes, similar to "Do Wah Diddy Diddy" by Manfred Mann.
Not too many people in India even heard of the Indian Cups and Balls. You can't even buy a decent set of cups in a Magic Shop there. I have put more work in this than any Indian magicians I have come across. Just like Mr. Palmer mentions in his previous post:

"I have seen Indian performers who tried to do something that resembled Cheppum Panthum, but it wasn't the real thing."
This is so true.
The real work on Cheppum Panthum has become so obscure that most magicians in India have absolutely no knowledge of any kind about this trick. I found this very odd and very inspiring.

Posted: Oct 16, 2011 9:27pm
Great news!
I was just informed by my partner in India that the Vazahkunnam Estate has endorsed all of my Cups and Work. I am ecstatic to have the nod of approval from such an honorable family and legendary name in Indian magic.
Message: Posted by: Dr_J_Ayala (Oct 16, 2011 09:43PM)
[quote]
On 2011-10-16 21:27, Gary Kosnitzky wrote:
Great news!!!!!!

I was just informed by my partner in India that the Vazahkunnam Estate
has endorsed all of my Cups and Work.
I am ecstatic to have the nod of approval from such an honorable family and legendary name in Indian magic.
[/quote]

CONGRATULATIONS! Wow! - that is absolutely fantastic! That really would take a lot of hard work and dedication to get your work to the point of even being recognized by such an entity, let alone endorsed by it. It says a lot about your skill and your abilities within this particular niche of the world of Cups and Balls magic.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Oct 17, 2011 12:24AM)
Gary -- That is excellent news, indeed! You must really feel great about that.
Message: Posted by: Harry Murphy (Oct 17, 2011 01:05AM)
Gary the endorsement by the Vazahkunnam Estate is quite the coup! Good show old bean! You may be the one person to carry this great tradition forward into the new millennium and keep it alive.
Message: Posted by: Gary Kosnitzky (Oct 17, 2011 04:14AM)
I hope everyone who wants to do this understands that this is not E-Z.
It took me many months just get used to half lotus posture.
I thinned down to allow myyself to sit more comfortably and be able to get up easily.
In the beginning I could only sit for 2-5 minutes. Now I can sit all day(if I had to.)
Most of the moves require you to be able to do them with either hand.
You need to be very proficient at CP'ing a small ball in both hands.
If you can do these things then the rest is just practice.
I can not guarantee your success, only you can.
Message: Posted by: lint (Oct 17, 2011 09:12PM)
Gary, such great news to hear about your work and endorsements. I am very excited to pick up the books you put out. I hope you enjoy continued success. Thank you for helping the "true" work survive.

-todd
Message: Posted by: Gary Kosnitzky (Oct 18, 2011 11:59AM)
Thank you Todd,
Your on the list.

Gary
Message: Posted by: maharajademagia (Oct 18, 2011 05:08PM)
[quote]

On 2011-10-12 17:20, Gary Kosnitzky wrote:
I will put up a professionally made video.

[/quote]

We are waiting.
Message: Posted by: fortasse (Oct 18, 2011 08:39PM)
Can put me down on the list too.

Fortasse
Message: Posted by: Gary Kosnitzky (Oct 18, 2011 09:13PM)
I put you on the list.
I PM'ed you.
Thanks,
Gary
Message: Posted by: Gary Kosnitzky (Oct 18, 2011 11:28PM)
Without a doubt Cheppum Panthum is the most complex version of the cups and balls you will ever learn.
It is a lot easier to learn Cheppum Panthum from real time 'live' instruction.
In addition to the book I am also putting together a list for 'experienced' cup and ballers who are interested in putting together a 3 day class.
We can have it when there is a convention in Las Vegas and you are here anyway.
I am still releasing this in print but for those who seriously want to add this to their repertoire, this is the fastest and easiest way.
PM me
or
info@jadoosmagic.com
Message: Posted by: cupsandballsmagic (Oct 19, 2011 02:59PM)
A workshop sounds like a fantastic option. A little too far for me to travel sadly :(
Message: Posted by: maharajademagia (Oct 20, 2011 05:17PM)
Garry I am on your list no? Just double checking.
Message: Posted by: Gary Kosnitzky (Oct 20, 2011 09:18PM)
I have been getting requests to see it again.
Here is a teaser.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HE1IxeVCvUs

My goal is to revive this dying art.
Pm me if you want to join the Indian Cups and Balls revolution.
I am taking names.
Message: Posted by: RS1963 (Oct 20, 2011 10:06PM)
Very Nicely done again Gary and thank you very much for the work, time and effort you have put in to make this available.

Randy
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Oct 21, 2011 12:32PM)
[quote]
On 2011-10-09 13:36, Gary Kosnitzky wrote:
The Authentic Indian Cups and Balls is about to be
available soon. Cups+Balls+the Work.

Here is a teaser:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaXnRm_wi0M

I hope you like it.
[/quote]

"This video has been removed by the user. Sorry about that."
Message: Posted by: Woland (Oct 21, 2011 12:39PM)
This link works for me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HE1IxeVCvUs

In some ways, I preferred the previous video, but this one is also excellent. I am looking forward to studying the material.

Thank you, Mr. Kosnitzky!
Message: Posted by: Gary Kosnitzky (Oct 21, 2011 02:44PM)
[quote]
On 2011-10-21 13:39, Woland wrote:
This link works for me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HE1IxeVCvUs

In some ways, I preferred the previous video, but this one is also excellent. I am looking forward to studying the material.

Thank you, Mr. Kosnitzky!
[/quote]

Your right.
It wasn't easy getting that chick back to my pad.
I am putting the old one up also.

Gary
Message: Posted by: Woland (Oct 21, 2011 02:47PM)
Your skills as a mentalist are undiminished, sir.
Message: Posted by: Gary Kosnitzky (Oct 21, 2011 03:35PM)
Here you go Woland-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7gp1WNRG6c
Message: Posted by: Woland (Oct 21, 2011 05:22PM)
Thank you, although your comment does leave me somewhat disillusioned about the effectiveness of the cups & balls . . . .

Besides that, though, I think the original video shows that the Indian cups & balls are nearly angle-proof and can be performed in an almost surrounded situation, no?
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Oct 21, 2011 08:28PM)
I have not discussed this with Gary yet, but here you go in public:

The pacing and structure of the Indian cups is different than what we do here ala "the great demonstrator taps his wand" or that done lighter.

So I'm real curious about finding a similar cadence/flow that resonates here - so the trick can work as designed for audiences here.
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Oct 22, 2011 01:56AM)
Read my book "Indian Cups & Balls" ( buy at http://www.pete-biro.com )
Message: Posted by: Dr_J_Ayala (Oct 22, 2011 11:22AM)
I have performed normal cups and balls routines completely surrounded and only had to make a few sleight changes to the final load sequences. The traditional Indian cups and balls is not quite as angle-friendly once you get beyond the 180 degrees from your left to your right, across the front of your body. That is to say, if you are using traditional techniques, anyway.

I would also recommend the Pete Biro book - there is a lot of great information in there on this subject, and it should be on the shelf of every serious student/performer of the cups and balls.
Message: Posted by: Gary Kosnitzky (Oct 22, 2011 12:41PM)
[quote]
On 2011-10-21 21:28, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
I have not discussed this with Gary yet, but here you go in public:

The pacing and structure of the Indian cups is different than what we do here ala "the great demonstrator taps his wand" or that done lighter.

So I'm real curious about finding a similar cadence/flow that resonates here - so the trick can work as designed for audiences here.
[/quote]

We must talk.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Oct 24, 2011 05:39PM)
Between a cold and work stuff ( FAA, fussing on projects... ) will be pretty distracted till early next week.

In the mean time - was going to ask if a clear digital video record of what really gets done and where has/is being made. Even if it's a long routine and each performer's version is an hour long and done on the street captured handheld (of course tip generously) - thinking like an anthropologist for a minute here. Culture as is - to be respected.

One has to wonder if a quick trip, a slip of the lip or even a mail order box to learn about chop-chop, PK, IT etc could do the same damage as has been done by "well intentioned" visitors and anthropologists before. Lost languages. Lost skills. Lost knowledge. Over there for that group a few PK rings and sets of chop-chop could change everything in less than a generation, perhaps even just a few years.

Walking on eggs,

J
Message: Posted by: maharajademagia (Nov 3, 2011 12:53PM)
Gary, Just got a parcel of your coconut shell Hindu Cups and Balls. They are authentic. Very nicely done and all handmade. I am really surprised at their quality and finish. The wand is also a work of art. I highly recommend them to everyone inserted in practising the Hindu Cups: The oldest Trick in the world, which I am convinced was born in India and not in Egypt, or add a work of art to your collection. These will soon become collectors items. Thanks again Gary.

When I learn how to I will post a picture.
Message: Posted by: charliewerner (Nov 9, 2011 10:29PM)
[quote]
On 2011-10-10 13:26, Pete Biro wrote:
[b]I need someone to help me get up after sitting on the floor.[/b] :kermit:
[/quote]

perhaps sitting on a bed will help? :P
Message: Posted by: Gary Kosnitzky (Nov 15, 2014 10:20AM)
I have made Cheppum Panthum my life's work.
For the last 8 years I have lived and breathed it.
There are many moves and many routines, I know them all.
The sad truth is that it is dying. You can count on one hand how many can proficiently perform it.
Here is a short routine I learned. Very few eyes have seen this very old version.
It is spoken in an ancient Hindu language, not used anymore.

Indha Cheppu Kali means- this cup is empty.
Pandu means ball.
Timi Taka Taa are magic words like hocus pocus or abracadabra.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1t88TicT-6U

I hope you enjoy it.
Message: Posted by: Wizard of Oz (Nov 15, 2014 10:13PM)
Elegant, graceful, and most of all, magical. Thank you.
Message: Posted by: Gary Kosnitzky (Nov 16, 2014 04:26PM)
Thank you Wizard of Oz.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Nov 17, 2014 03:13AM)
Gary's work on Cheppum Panthum has completely validated my hypothesis that the Egyptians did not originate the cups and balls.
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Nov 18, 2014 10:50AM)
Well done
Message: Posted by: Ray Haining (Nov 18, 2014 01:18PM)
Nice. I like the motion of the wand, sliding it, when replacing it on the floor behind the cups.

Slightly off topic, isn't the theory that the cups and balls originated with the Egyptians based on that picture of two people doing what appears to be a cups and balls routine, but is really a picture of two people preparing bread? Maybe it was you, Bill, who punctured that myth?

What ancient Hindu language is that? How far back does it go?
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Nov 19, 2014 08:40PM)
Although I would like to lay claim to puncturing that myth, there were others before me who picked up on the same inconsistencies that I did.

One that was obvious to me was the complete lack of any kind of pebble, ball or other similar item in the painting. Egyptian art is very specific.
Message: Posted by: Donnie Buckley (Nov 20, 2014 09:44AM)
Ray, That glyph in the tomb at Beni Hasan is probably not two people baking bread either. It is in a section of glyphs that depict culinary procedures, but it is most likely two people [url=http://photoblog.nbcnews.com/_news/2011/01/31/5959475-indian-villager-makes-cow-dung-cakes-used-as-cooking-fuel]stacking dung cakes for cooking fuel[/url].
I've also heard it suggested that it is a depiction of two people making sugar loaves. But sugar loaves aren't shaped like that - they are conical so the sugar can be broken off, wouldn't be stacked, and there is no evidence that sugar loaves were made by ancient Egyptians (according to Wikipedia the earliest record of a sugar loaf comes from the 9th century). The dung cake however is shaped like that, is stacked en masse, exists WAY BACK in history, and was an essential part of the ancient kitchen.
One thing is for certain: it's not an image of Cups and Balls.
IMO, the trick originated in the Indus Valley (India) at least 5000 years ago (and probably longer, since archeologists have only recently started to date civilization in that region to OLDER than previously assumed.)
You know, those Indian magicians actually guard their secrets and only teach them to their male children, so westerners (Romans) who witnessed this trick thousand of years ago, would have had to make up their own techniques. Therefore, I believe western cups and balls techniques are a derivative of the Indian techniques.
Message: Posted by: Lawrence O (Nov 22, 2014 03:31AM)
Donnie,
Since I was the one that suggested the sugar loaves as a possibility, your point on their shape isn't totally convincing but your point on sugar loaves having started in the 9th century is. So I'm getting into some search to support (or argue with) your cooking fuel hypothesis.
Now the relationship between the oriental and occidental worlds date from the wars between Persia and the Greeks and then, later, Alexander the Great's invasion of Persia. Persia had made an empire that was encompassing India and had a very original administrative decentralized system which, in history, would only be matched by the the Ottoman Empire. Thus it's reasonable to expect that the Cups and Balls, if they were initiated in India (an acceptable hypothesis but not much more... it could as well be Persia), it wouldn't have reach our barbarian coasts through the Romans but through the Greeks
Remember Alciphron...
Message: Posted by: Donnie Buckley (Nov 22, 2014 09:15AM)
Lawrence,
I liked your Sugar Loaves Theory a lot, even with the improper shape and stacking depicted in the glyph, until I discovered that ancient Egyptians didn't refine sugar. It was Gary who showed me that the glyph in the tomb of Beni Hasan was most likely a depiction of dung cakes being made. If true, it's hilarious that magicians have laid claim to this image.
And you are correct that the westerners that would have come in contact with the Indian magicians were pre-Romans.

On the subject of Indian magicians, I urge you to read "Net of Magic, Wonders and Deceptions in India", by Lee Siegel. Lee Siegel is a professor of religion at the University of Hawaii. His first hand experience with what we would call a "caste" of magicians in Shadipur India is enlightening. You come away from the book with a sense of having glimpsed into the rich history of the Indian magician - because so much of what they do has not been changed by time.
Message: Posted by: Lawrence O (Nov 22, 2014 10:02AM)
Thks, Donnie. This is (yet) another book that had escaped my scrutiny...
We're all ignorant, just not of the same thing.