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Topic: Rubber Dove to look real
Message: Posted by: JamesinLA (Nov 14, 2011 08:25PM)
Is it possible to sell the audience on a Neilson dove being alive? Any advice on this? Can you get away with it? I would use this during a manipulation routine that opens my show, as just a quick production and then a vanish. Thanks.

Jim
Message: Posted by: Dave Scribner (Nov 14, 2011 09:05PM)
The best way to accomplish this is to produce or use a real dove or two before using the Nielson dove. It's psycological. The real doves will set the minds of the audience so when you introduce the Neilson dove, they don't think about it. Of course you only want to show the dove for a very short time. Don't spend any time trying to convince the audience that it is real.
Message: Posted by: JamesinLA (Nov 14, 2011 11:28PM)
Dave,
I can see you are right about this, however, I don't have any real doves. My concern is that since it doesn't move, doesn't flap its wings, it won't be perceieved as real. I was wondering if anyone has advice to circumvent this and is it possible to achieve a brief perception of realism before I would vanish it?
Thanks.

Jim
Message: Posted by: Dave Scribner (Nov 15, 2011 05:13AM)
James, without using a real dove to set the thinking, I don't think you can get away with the illusion. You would have to show the dove so quickly that it wouldn't make any sense. The only option I could think of would be to produce the dove in a cage, but it doesn't sound like you are looking for that type of effect.

If you wanted a comedy effect, you could produce the bird and then fold it up or crush it but then you wouldn't be portraying the "live" bird atmosphere that I think you're looking for.
Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (Nov 15, 2011 05:44AM)
James, yes there is a breif moment when the audience thinks it is a real bird, but that only lasts a few seconds. I seen one magician extend this moment by causing the head to move up and down. But instead of thinking that is a nice bird, they are thinking is that a real bird.

I also seen a magician put them in with other birds and my brain and eyes swear that the bird was moving. It is funny how the eyes can fool yourself.
Message: Posted by: JamesinLA (Nov 15, 2011 06:23PM)
Bill,
Regarding that brief moment, that's what I hoping. I remember seeing Billy McComb producing his rubber dove and it was perceived as real at first. Until he folded it up. I don't think it would get as big a laugh if they didn't think it was real to begin with.
Along those lines, I was wondering if there was any advice--like the bobing head--but also maybe there is one way better than another to produce the Neilson dove so that it helps it seem real for that moment?
Maybe have some "feathers" fall, etc? Or a certain type of production better than another? Thanks.

Jim
Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (Nov 15, 2011 06:42PM)
As for another 'real' moment. Just ball up a piece of paper, lit it drop and quickly pick up your foot, to get out of the way. This movement is used even if it is nowhere near your foot.

Being you are not using a real dove, any good way to make it appear would can be used. Don't waste your money on any actual dove productions. It will not work as the material that makes the dove will cause drag on everything.

For the head movement, put your thumb behind the neck on the body and your a finger on the chest below the neck. Only a sleight movement is necessary.

If you think you will ever get a real bird, I suggest you buy Abbott's Dovan. It is a super vanish and production of a single bird.
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (Nov 17, 2011 05:56AM)
There is a electric dove that is manufactured to fit magicians. The wings flap.
Message: Posted by: Regan (Nov 17, 2011 09:39AM)
Without using any real doves I think presenting a Neilson Dove to an audience as a real, live dove is not likely.
Message: Posted by: MagicalMotivator (Nov 21, 2011 07:13PM)
James,

This is very difficult to do. Initially (with enough distance from the audience and of NN quality) it would appear as a live bird since most magicians use doves. However, animation of the dove after that would be difficult especially if you have no experience using real birds. I have been working with doves in my magic for over 35 years and would not be able to pull this off as you suggest. Today's audiences (especially the young ones) can pick up on this deception very quickly. Please note I am not saying this is impossible, as nothing is, but considering the time and work involved you might be better to use a quick rather than a dead one. Hope this helps.

MM
Message: Posted by: Lou Hilario (Nov 22, 2011 09:24AM)
I remembered I used to have an Owen Rubber Dove. It was more realistic than the Nielsen dove. It even had claws.
Too make it realistic, you could have some small feathers drop once you produce the dove.
Message: Posted by: ssucahyo (Dec 26, 2011 09:11AM)
[quote]
On 2011-11-22 10:24, Lou Hilario wrote:
I remembered I used to have an Owen Rubber Dove. It was more realistic than the Nielsen dove. It even had claws.
Too make it realistic, you could have some small feathers drop once you produce the dove.
[/quote]


this is simple but very good idea...
Merry Christmas !!!
Message: Posted by: Bob1Dog (Dec 29, 2011 03:34PM)
Rich Bloch used a Nielsen latex dove in a routine at his theater in Bethany Beach, DE If you can get there, you owe it to yourself to visit the theater. It's a wonderful place. The routine involved vanishing a sandwich in a paper bag and producing a dove with flapping wings. He quickly put the dove back in the bag and smashed it to smithereens on the table in a comedy effect. Of course at the end of the effect, he told folks not to worry that it was only a fake dove and pulled it out again briefly to reassure everyone he didn't kill a real dove. The audience loved it. So. How did he produce the flapping wings? He shared it with me and I'll share it here. Use a Nielsen dove, put a slit on each side about where a wing would be. Obtain some white vinyl or faux leather material and cut it into a single piece, shaping each side like a wing. Run the wing through slits from one side through the other and you have a dove with wings that when handled properly looks exactly like a real dove flapping its wings when you pull it out of the bag. Amazingly convincing and everyone in the audience thought for sure he had a real dove.
Message: Posted by: Powermagic (Jun 9, 2012 11:00PM)
I think those who use a realistic dove as gag does all of magic a diservice. First, it shows the audience that rubber does exist. Second it shows ruins it for those who try to use it as real.
I will say that I believe those who say you can not introduce a fake dove as real without real doves are exaggerating and probably have not tested that theory. The proof is , ironically , from those who use it as a gag.

I have seen it many times. Magician produces a laxtex dove, The audience may give an AAAAAh , Whether they do or not, the real proof is when the gagmaster stuffs it in his mouth or folds it up or stomps on it. The intial reaction from the audience is shock and suprise. They would not if they did not first asssume it was real.

Anyway, I hate to see it used as a gag sine it makes it that much harder for other magicians that might want to pass it as real.
Message: Posted by: Futureal (Jun 11, 2012 08:57PM)
[quote]
On 2011-11-17 06:56, Dynamike wrote:
There is a electric dove that is manufactured to fit magicians. The wings flap.
[/quote]

It also looks nothing like a real dove.

It wasn't manufactured for magicians, it's a kid's toy that someone decided to repackage and sell to magicians.
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (Jun 30, 2012 07:10PM)
It is not in the item, it is how it is presented. If you can not present that item to entertain laymen, I must admit you are doing it wrong.
Message: Posted by: Andrew Zuber (Jul 2, 2012 08:26PM)
I produced a Nielsen dove at the Castle last week and got great reactions. I manipulated it to make it move just slightly and only had it out for a few moments before the vanish. I had SEVERAL friends in the audience come up to me afterward and tell me they didn't even know I owned a dove. That right there was good enough for me. Like Dynamike said, it's all about how you handle it, and the Neilsen doves look SO good.
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (Jul 2, 2012 10:41PM)
Keep up the great work Andrew.