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Topic: Equivoque - opinions needed
Message: Posted by: Foxlute (Dec 6, 2011 06:38AM)
I bought a trick a few months ago which relies on equivoque. That's not necessarily a bad thing but this particular trick relies on it at three stages of the routine. I feel very uncomfortable placing this much reliance on such a force and wondered what others thought about this.
Message: Posted by: Loual4 (Dec 6, 2011 07:26AM)
If you do not feel good about it, it is not going to work. If feel good about this type of force, everything about it becomes natural in the way you act and express yourself... and therefore it will work wonderfully. Attitude has a lot to do with it. Personnaly, I don't have a problem with it.
Message: Posted by: Dr. JK (Dec 6, 2011 08:20AM)
There are many such routines that rely entirely on equivoque. If your discomfort stems from whether you think it will work, or if you'll get caught, lay those fears aside: many people have employed this magic utility with great success. You can do it, too! Just make sure there is no hesitation when you go into it, and you'll be fine. Remember, most of magic is highly simple when you know the secret, and many fear being caught. Make sure you've practiced and are comfortable with the routine, and all will be well.

If your discomfort is because you don't think you have the performing personality to pull an equivoque effect off, that may be a valid concern. Obviously, if you absolutely cannot get comfortable with a routine, it's better to drop it and replace it with something else that [b]does[/b] fit your personality. There's too much good magic out there to sweat using something with which you can't get comfortable.

Good luck with working this out. Please let us know what you end up doing!
Message: Posted by: Atom3339 (Dec 6, 2011 11:36AM)
Mr. lute, The general rule of thumb is that you don't use the same method / gimmick / sleight twice for the same effect. Keep 'em guessing! Throw them off the scent. There's usually a substitute you can use. Or shorten the routine for a quick stunner. Or build up the effect longer but only do it once. This is where creativity comes in to fit YOUR style. The above posters have a valid point about CONFIDENCE. In your handling, your patter, your routine. ALWAYS practice more than you think. Practice builds your confidence.
Message: Posted by: Foxlute (Dec 8, 2011 11:07AM)
Thanks to all. I think the main message here is not to do it unless I feel comfortable. Don't get me wrong. I happily use it in some of the more standard card routines but the tricks I do don't usually rely on it at more than one stage. I think I may just put this down to experience and leave the trick (it's a written method booklet in fact) in the bottom of my magic box. Perhaps I'll review it in a few years and feel differently.

Anyhow, thanks again for your thoughts.
Message: Posted by: Father Photius (Dec 9, 2011 09:20PM)
Used the magician's choice / Equivoque for decades, never had a problem.
Message: Posted by: Drosselmeyer (Dec 9, 2011 10:13PM)
Ok ... I'm lost ... Equivoque?
Message: Posted by: dpe666 (Dec 9, 2011 10:40PM)
On 2011-12-09 23:13, Drosselmeyer wrote:
Ok ... I'm lost ... Equivoque?

A.K.A. "Magician's Choice Force". :devilish:
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Dec 10, 2011 08:24AM)
Just "Magician's choice" does it.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Dec 14, 2011 07:18AM)
So, wadda YOU think about its value, Harry?
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Dec 14, 2011 09:26AM)
VERY valuable when properly used. I've taught my methods throughout my books in different effects. First mention - look up Force Prediction in the Close-Up Card Magic section of LORAYNE: THE CLASSIC COLLECTION, Vol. 1. HL.
Message: Posted by: SmithMagicMan (Dec 14, 2011 09:29AM)
Multiplicity by Max Maven is absolutely fantastic(:
Message: Posted by: Mipple (Dec 17, 2011 04:04PM)
You need to make sure you use it well in my opinion or it can backfire massively. I can remember several times before I got into magic when I was completely unimpressed with a trick where the magician had very clearly (to me, maybe not to other spectators) used a very basic magician's choice. If they'd left that part out entirely and just made the choice themselves then I would have been impressed with the trick, but as soon as it was clear they'd only pretended to give a free choice I lost interest.

There are situations where a really good use of equivoque can certainly enhance an effect though, and as others have said it will also depend on your belief in it to sell it to spectators.

Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Dec 17, 2011 06:15PM)
Can not disagree with Mark, especially the "really good use" part. The big E needs love and care, and a bit of concealment. Doing it three times in a routine would not be something I would attempt, although others may make it work. Certainly, a degree of misdirection (time or otherwise) would be the first thing to come to my mind.

The thought and preparation that you put into BEFORE the magic is what makes the reaction AFTER the magic worth working for...

Message: Posted by: Vick (Dec 26, 2011 09:57AM)
See Max Maven's work on equivoque
Message: Posted by: jmvives (Jan 4, 2012 12:23PM)
There is a few tricks which allow to you to be more confident with the magician's choice. You can check Max Maven's work out.

Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Jan 4, 2012 01:20PM)
If not completely confident when doing magician's choice, you shouldn't be doing magician's choice!
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Jan 5, 2012 10:49AM)
Listen to Harry!
Message: Posted by: Mark_Chandaue (Jan 8, 2012 08:09AM)
On 2011-12-06 12:36, Atom3339 wrote:
Mr. lute, The general rule of thumb is that you don't use the same method / gimmick / sleight twice for the same effect. Keep 'em guessing! Throw them off the scent. There's usually a substitute you can use.
I would say this is something to consider rather than a rule. Certainly I know Harry does some amazing routines that use no more than a whole bunch of slip cuts. If you have mastered a method/gimmick or sleight and use it appropriately the audience should never be on the scent in the first place. I watched Ascanio give a lecture on the use of double cards. He did about a dozen effects all using no more than a double lift or holding 2 cards as one. Until the second half where he gave the explanation I didn't even realise the lecture was about double cards. Likewise Max Maven did a lecture on eqivoque and all of the effects relied on equivogue. How many routines are there that rely on multiple Elmsley counts.

In fact I Would go further and say there are times when using a different sleight/method causes an inconsistency that can break the illusion. It's not about how often you use a sleight, it's more important to do the right sleight at the right moment in the right way.
Message: Posted by: *double-A-magic* (Jan 21, 2012 03:30PM)
I'm looking at purchasing John Bannon's Duplicity and am led to believe that it relies heavily on Equivoque.

People are reccomending Max Maven... Is Mr. Bannon's teachings highly regarded as I was hoping the literature that comes with the trick would be enough to get me up and running.


Message: Posted by: maxpax (Jan 23, 2012 10:52AM)
It's a good method if done well. I remember when I first tried it on a friend and stopped an thought after he picked up an object. Afterwards he said "It's amazing that you could predict what I would pick but it seemed like you were just making everything up. Can we try it again?" My method was not that repeatable so I said "I'm out of mana" and went to get a glass of water. Then we played some xbox.
But I digress.
Confidence and practice is key to magicians choice!

Good luck!
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Jan 23, 2012 11:02AM)
On 2012-01-04 14:20, Harry Lorayne wrote:
If not completely confident when doing magician's choice, you shouldn't be doing magician's choice!
Hi: Thought I'd stressed that above.
Message: Posted by: maxpax (Jan 23, 2012 12:07PM)
I guess it never hurts to hear twice though!
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Jan 23, 2012 01:35PM)
Then three times is much better!
Message: Posted by: djurmann (Jan 23, 2012 01:45PM)
Well it depends. You have two choices....either you choose to keep equivoque in which case you throw the other choice out..OR you choose the other option in which case you throw THAT one away leaving you with equivoque. Either way it is a free and open choice. The decision is yours.

Message: Posted by: Kent Wong (Jan 23, 2012 04:40PM)
To become confident in the magician's choice, you need to understand why it works. This force relies entirely on the principle that the spectators have no idea what is going to happen next. For instance, if you get the spectator to point to 2 of the three items being displayed, the spectator has no idea if you are going to use those two items or discard them and use the 1 item that remains. In other words, you DO NOT tell the spectator what you are going to do with their choice in advance of the selection being made. Also, NEVER REPEAT a trick that relies on magician's choice to the same spectators (since then, they will have an idea of what will happen next).

Message: Posted by: Kent Wong (Jan 23, 2012 05:17PM)
The best way to analyze the temporary suspension of disbelief is by taking a look at movies. When you go to a movie and sit down in the theatre, you know that what you are about to see on the screen isn't real. And yet, the movie that "isn't real" can still evoke tremendous emotions and leave you completely drained by the time it is over. When you leave the theatre, you know the movie "isn't real" but it doesn't lessen your enjoyment of it.

So, what makes a good movie? I would suggest the following elements:
1. A believable and likeable protagonist
2. Scenes, situations and experiences to which the audience can relate - it has meaning

With this in mind, imagine a situation that could be perceived as real magic by the spectator. Imagine are shopping and there is someone in front of you at the cashier. Unfortunately, she only has $10 and the price for her purchase is $20. You offer to provide some assistance as you casually fold up the $10 bill and transform it into a $20. After that, you simply walk away.

Being slightly short of funds is a situation that many of us may have either faced or feared. So we can relate to it. It has meaning. In this situation, you are not a magician but rather, a likeable and helpful bystander. It is likely that, upon reflection, the shopper may realize that she just witnessed nothing more than a very generous magic trick. But how long do you think this situation will be remembered? Why? It has meaning. You took advantage of the moment and created astonishment.

Now, compare this situation to a sponge ball routine. Is there any meaning? No. It's still a good trick but, even with a very likeable performer, it remains a mere trick/puzzle. So, the first key step to creating a temporary suspension of disbelief is to provide a meaningful and engaging reason for your actions. As soon as that meaning disappears, the spell is shattered.

Message: Posted by: Ekuth (Jan 23, 2012 06:07PM)
I'll fourth Harry's opinion; don't use it unless you're comfortable with it and can do it without thinking about it. If you're taking the time to think about it, then your spectators are too. It should be smooth as fresh butter on a baby's butt.


Okay, bad mental image, but you get the point.

Is there any way you can work the effect with only one MC/PATEO instead of three?
Message: Posted by: Foxlute (Jan 23, 2012 06:49PM)
On 2012-01-23 19:07, Ekuth wrote:

Is there any way you can work the effect with only one MC/PATEO instead of three?

I don't think so and I don't think I can explain exactly why without exposing it. But it's OK. I have plenty of good stuff to work on that doesn't involve such things including a whole host of terrific effects in TCC1 which will keep me going for a long time. Maybe I'll go back to this effect at a future date.

Thanks again to everyone who commented.
Message: Posted by: karlito (Jan 28, 2012 12:02PM)
There are ways in which you can disguise equivoque by varying the procedure. A good illustration of this is in Christian Painter's Protoplasm- Touchstones. For example if you get another spectator involved then the rules change. I also agree that confidence is integral, also the speed at which you continue the effect.. do not hesitate!