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Topic: "The Workers" Pledge
Message: Posted by: Steven Youell (Dec 20, 2011 02:49PM)
Name calling, sniping, trolling, personal attacks, grudges, vitriol, vindictiveness and even the age old "he started it" nonsense have all ruined this valuable resource.

So since I've had a history of some of this stuff (albeit a long time ago), I've decided to ask people to take a pledge promising to not engage is this nonsense. If you want to make the pledge, then simply reply and say "I'm In!" Here is the pledge:

1) I will not engage in arguments over credits in this section. I will instead, address the issues in other sections that are designed for these discussions.

2) I will not call names or make personal attacks.

3) I will only make [b]constructive[/b] criticism. In other words, any criticism I offer will be designed to help make someone's magic better. I will always try to offer a solution if I can.

4) If someone treats me badly or irritates me, I will take the high road and leave them alone. Neither will I post comments that are designed to antagonize them.

5) I will not post in thread that have degraded into arguments or flame wars. I will let the thread die and go into the obscurity where it belongs. I will also totally ignore the participants in those childish arguments.

6) I will think for at least ten minutes before I hit the "submit" button in order to make sure I've followed this pledge. I will also take this time to make sure I have not misunderstood someone's post and to make sure my post can not be interpreted as breaking this pledge.

Now I know that even if the majority of us follow these points it won't end this nonsense. But it sure would reduce it.

It'll be interesting to see how many of those involved in the more recent schoolyard brawls agree to follow the pledge. I predict none of them will since it's obviously "winning" is more important to them than magic, other people and yes, even their own reputations.

Let's see what happens.

SEY
Message: Posted by: MickeyPainless (Dec 20, 2011 02:53PM)
I'm in!

MMc
Message: Posted by: Andrew Zuber (Dec 20, 2011 02:55PM)
Absolutely in. This should be a sticky topic.
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Dec 20, 2011 02:57PM)
I'm In!
Message: Posted by: 1tepa1 (Dec 20, 2011 03:02PM)
Count me in.
Message: Posted by: FrenchDrop (Dec 20, 2011 03:03PM)
I'm in.

If I break any part of the pledge, it'll almost certainly be #5. I know there's still a part of me that thinks some good can come from calling people on their bad behavior. Another part of me knows that's naive and pointless...but that part doesn't always win. I'll do my best.
Message: Posted by: KyleMacNeill (Dec 20, 2011 03:09PM)
I'm in.
Message: Posted by: Steve Friedberg (Dec 20, 2011 03:15PM)
I'm in. It will be interesting to see who signs up....and more importantly, who does not.
Message: Posted by: BarryFernelius (Dec 20, 2011 03:16PM)
I'm in.
Message: Posted by: nspikito (Dec 20, 2011 03:23PM)
I'm in except for #6. I just don't have the patience to wait 10 minutes before posting any of my typically vitriolic tirades. But if I agree to everything else, which I do, then these tirades will magically disappear . . . without any sleight of hand.

Spike
Message: Posted by: Glenn Morphew (Dec 20, 2011 03:24PM)
I think so far, a lot of the people that are "in" were never "out." Anyway, I'm in.
Message: Posted by: Magiman (Dec 20, 2011 03:25PM)
In
Message: Posted by: Ray Tupper. (Dec 20, 2011 03:42PM)
I actually saw this post,or one very similar,on another forum.
It was about two weeks ago!
Are you going to give credit to that poster?
I'm not gonna tell you where or who,it's up to you to research the provenance.
I'm off now,to get back under my moist rock.
(Joke)
Ray.
Message: Posted by: Octopus Sun (Dec 20, 2011 03:47PM)
This is just plain common sense.
There is NO NEED to take a pledge.

Sad that people just never grow up.
and many of you call yourselves Professional's.
Childish whining bickering from Magicians...
same as it ever was...

peace.
Message: Posted by: Steven Youell (Dec 20, 2011 04:08PM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-20 16:47, Duaut wrote:
This is just plain common sense.[/quote]
How's that been working so far?

SEY
Message: Posted by: Andrew Zuber (Dec 20, 2011 04:10PM)
And as a perfect example, I see my entire thread has been deleted. Too bad. Let's hope people really follow this pledge.
Message: Posted by: FrenchDrop (Dec 20, 2011 04:17PM)
The one flaw here is the usual one with this kind of pledge: The people who create most of the problems either believe they are entirely blameless -- or pretend to believe that. I've seen professions of innocence that blew my mind, either by their apparent obliviousness or their sheer audacity.

Those who genuinely believe they've done nothing wrong won't see the pledge as applying to them...and those who like to pretend they don't know any better will pretend the pledge doesn't apply to them. For them, signing on to the pledge would feel like an admission of guilt, and they're not going to do that.

Still an idea worth trying, though. If it only makes things a little better for a little while, it's worth trying, and Steven will be a hero for it. :D
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Dec 20, 2011 04:49PM)
Sorry your entire thread has been deleted, Andrew. After all, it was about a trick of mine, so it fed my ego a bit. It is wrong for the entire thread to be deleted. I think just the put-down posts about me and mine and of course my responses should be deleted. That would make much more sense, because then, possibly some posters or just readers would learn about a trick that they might find great for them - or not - read an interesting thread about MAGIC, not about "jealousies" that have nothing to do with the original post. But it'd be their choice. I thought that was the point of this forum, or any forum.

Now, let me talk about this thread a bit - the "pledge" idea. I think it's kind of obvious that I am the one that the people who come in and "ruin" a thread come after. I have no idea why - and that's why "jealousy" comes to mind. But, here's the point - it's, oh, so easy for everyone to say "I'm in," when they are not the ones who are being insulted by some of those who "ruin" threads by insulting ME. I wish you would go over some of the insults to me and think about how you'd feel if they were aimed at YOU. (These insults, attacks, I'm talking about are usually by the same people - like those in the thread that was deleted. Seems as if it'd make more sense to just DELETE THEM.) Would you still "pledge" if those same people "came after you"?

I'll make my own, individual, pledge - I pledge to never, ever, IN ANY WAY, insult anyone unless they INSULT ME FIRST. Is that so wrong? I pledge to NEVER, EVER, start these kinds of sillinesses unless it starts ABOUT ME FIRST. It's always been interesting to me that those who advise me to "just ignore" these terrible people, "just lie back and enjoy it," are never the ones that are being insulted, etc. Think about it before you so quickly agree that I'm in the wrong. Best - Harry L.
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Dec 20, 2011 04:54PM)
And, of course, I just saw Frenchdrop's post above mine. Now, I may be wrong, and if I am I apologize in advance - but my question is - was that post ("The people who create most of the problems either believe they are entirely blameless -- or pretend to believe that. I've seen professions of innocence that blew my mind, either by their apparent obliviousness or their sheer audacity.") necessary. Is he talking about me? Hey, I really don't know, if he isn't - I apologize.
Message: Posted by: Opine Traveler (Dec 20, 2011 04:59PM)
[quote]I'll make my own, individual, pledge - I pledge to never, ever, IN ANY WAY, insult anyone unless they INSULT ME FIRST. Is that so wrong? I pledge to NEVER, EVER, start these kinds of sillinesses unless it starts ABOUT ME FIRST. It's always been interesting to me that those who advise me to "just ignore" these terrible people, "just lie back and enjoy it," are never the ones that are being insulted, etc. Think about it before you so quickly agree that I'm in the wrong.[/quote]

I'm not certain that actually changes anything or helps in any way. A while back, you wrote this:

[quote]I will no longer respond to posts that do not have to do with the subject at hand, so perhaps we can keep it on track.[/quote]

That, I liked.
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Dec 20, 2011 05:02PM)
"4) If someone treats me badly or irritates me, I will take the high road and leave them alone. Neither will I post comments that are designed to antagonize them." (Agonize THEM?!?)
I know that, perhaps, Steven has been insulted on the forum, but I wonder how many, really, who "pledge" for #4 have been personally insulted as I have in the deleted forum, and quite a few others over the years. Just check it out. Then think about whether or not you'd respond. Perhaps not. But that's not the nature of this beast. I've written about it often enough. I was brought up with bullies. I realized that if you didn't "hit back," you'd be bullied forever. Not only that - I honestly believe that these bullies should NOT be ignored. Sorry, just my opinions about my PERSONAL attitudes. HL.
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Dec 20, 2011 05:04PM)
Sorry, Opine Traveler, I tried. Just read my post above, the one you copied. How many times have YOU been insulted by these "lovelies"? If you haven't, how can you, in any way, judge my feelings? Just curious. HL.
Message: Posted by: Opine Traveler (Dec 20, 2011 05:20PM)
I'm not judging your feelings, Harry; I'm just suggesting that some decisions work better than others.
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Dec 20, 2011 05:28PM)
Absolutely right, Opine Traveler. I've tried to explain about MY feelings.

Incidentally, the thread that was supposedly deleted, hasn't been. I just saw it - even RESPONDED to Mr. Stevie. Yes, he's still there.
Message: Posted by: lynnef (Dec 20, 2011 05:44PM)
I agree with the pledge; although I had to think a bit about the first point. All too often some of us wish to find out the history of an effect; and then an unprincipled argument between two parties ensues over credits. But overall, I do agree with the pledge (especially as credit disputes are to be left to other sections), and hope that it will clear a bit of the air.
As an aside, it has always bothered me to see the disrespect thrown at some of our VIPs. It's so easy on the internet to hurl insults. So...many many thanks Steven for the pledge. Lynn
Message: Posted by: FrenchDrop (Dec 20, 2011 06:35PM)
I have not and will not name any specific forum members in this thread. But anyone who reads what I've written and thinks I'm writing about them might take a moment to consider [b]why[/b] they see themselves in my comments.
Message: Posted by: bblumen (Dec 20, 2011 06:44PM)
[url=http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=446408&forum=133&0]Rules Of The Game[/url]


Brian
Message: Posted by: Steven Youell (Dec 20, 2011 06:48PM)
I'll save you folks some time.

The thread bblumen has referenced is one in which he makes accusations towards Harry Lorayne.

SEY
Message: Posted by: Andrew Zuber (Dec 20, 2011 06:49PM)
...and has already been removed.
Message: Posted by: j100taylor (Dec 20, 2011 06:51PM)
This thread was my idea and I demand proper credit!

PS - Count me in!
Message: Posted by: bblumen (Dec 20, 2011 07:04PM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-20 19:48, Steven Youell wrote:
I'll save you folks some time.

The thread bblumen has referenced is one in which he makes accusations towards Harry Lorayne.

SEY
[/quote]


I thought you were not going to respond to my posts any further?

I didn't accuse Mr. Lorayne of anything in my vanished post. I only quoted what has already been written.


Brian
Message: Posted by: Steve Martin (Dec 20, 2011 07:18PM)
One of the difficulties in threads concerning Harry, is that his personal threshold for viewing a comment as an insult is incredibly low. For example, one could express a view that they prefer some handling of an effect better than that described by Harry - and instead of taking this as a perfectly valid viewpoint that widens the understanding of all, he'll take it as an attack, and will do his utmost to narrow the field of vision to his own domain. He'll start referring to the comment as an insult, and start referring to the person themselves (repeatedly) as an idiot. Little wonder, then, that such threads rapidly go downhill. No amount of "Workers Pledges" is going to change this.
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Dec 20, 2011 07:21PM)
What a great ezample of the "big lie" theory the above Stevie's post is. Untrue, wrong, a big lie, insulting, and etc.
Message: Posted by: Steve Martin (Dec 20, 2011 07:23PM)
Well, if it's untrue, I apologise. But it's how I have observed things progressing in threads. If you can prove this wrong going forward, then maybe this particular thread has achieved at least that (and perhaps more).
Message: Posted by: FrenchDrop (Dec 20, 2011 07:25PM)
It's probably too late for this, but it would be nice -- for reasons that should be obvious -- if this one thread in all of the Workers' forum, in all of the Magic Café, would not become about any specific person or persons, would not spiral down the tubes in yet another clash of opposing egos.

Just this once, in this single thread, could we not have that? If you must hash this stuff out, use PM. If you absolutely have to do it publicly, use another thread.

If you can't or won't agree to the pledge, don't use this thread as another venue for old, personal battles. At least let the rest of us pretend this forum is not beyond saving.
Message: Posted by: Steve Martin (Dec 20, 2011 07:29PM)
OK - I'll agree to that, and I apologise to Harry if what I said came across as overly harsh or, indeed, unfounded. It was only based on my observations, which may or may not be correct, and so seemed relevant to the topic. It's probably something that also applies to all of us, and is a reminder too that words written down are often easily misinterpreted.
Message: Posted by: MagicDr (Dec 20, 2011 07:29PM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-20 17:49, Harry Lorayne wrote:
Sorry your entire thread has been deleted, Andrew. After all, it was about a trick of mine, so it fed my ego a bit. It is wrong for the entire thread to be deleted. I think just the put-down posts about me and mine and of course my responses should be deleted. That would make much more sense, because then, possibly some posters or just readers would learn about a trick that they might find great for them - or not - read an interesting thread about MAGIC, not about "jealousies" that have nothing to do with the original post. But it'd be their choice. I thought that was the point of this forum, or any forum.

Now, let me talk about this thread a bit - the "pledge" idea. I think it's kind of obvious that I am the one that the people who come in and "ruin" a thread come after. I have no idea why - and that's why "jealousy" comes to mind. But, here's the point - it's, oh, so easy for everyone to say "I'm in," when they are not the ones who are being insulted by some of those who "ruin" threads by insulting ME. I wish you would go over some of the insults to me and think about how you'd feel if they were aimed at YOU. (These insults, attacks, I'm talking about are usually by the same people - like those in the thread that was deleted. Seems as if it'd make more sense to just DELETE THEM.) Would you still "pledge" if those same people "came after you"?

I'll make my own, individual, pledge - I pledge to never, ever, IN ANY WAY, insult anyone unless they INSULT ME FIRST. Is that so wrong? I pledge to NEVER, EVER, start these kinds of sillinesses unless it starts ABOUT ME FIRST. It's always been interesting to me that those who advise me to "just ignore" these terrible people, "just lie back and enjoy it," are never the ones that are being insulted, etc. Think about it before you so quickly agree that I'm in the wrong. Best - Harry L.
[/quote]

If I were in your position, I wouldn't care if others insulted me. Being that you have written books, appeared on TV, and associated with big names in magic, I'd say your name speaks for itself

To be honest, I'm a it surprised that comments get to you. I would imagine that these sort of things would get to people with something to prove so I can't imagine that someone in your position would have the need to defend their name. That's a good thing Mr Lorayne
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Dec 20, 2011 07:48PM)
It's my Lower East Side - experience with bullies - background, MagicDr., can't help it. Thanks for the kind words. HL.
Message: Posted by: MeetMagicMike (Dec 20, 2011 09:24PM)
I'm In.
Message: Posted by: MeetMagicMike (Dec 20, 2011 09:37PM)
If any one else wants to put the pledge in your signature just go to your profile and copy and paste this into your signature:

I took the BRACKETurl=http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=446374&forum=2&38CLOSEBRACKETPledgeBRACKET/urlCLOSEBRACKET

Just replace BRACKET and CLOSEBRACKET with actual brackets. I tried to disable BBCode for this post so I could just print the actual code but it didn't work.
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Dec 20, 2011 09:45PM)
I use to go to bar in Long beach CA.. called "COUNT ME INN"

so count me in as well but being the Godfather I reserve the right to add rules
Message: Posted by: Steven Youell (Dec 20, 2011 09:47PM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-20 22:45, vinsmagic wrote:
So count me in as well but being the Godfather I reserve the right to add rules... [/quote]
I know this will be hard for you Vinny, but please try your best to keep the pledge...

SEY
Message: Posted by: bobn3 (Dec 20, 2011 10:37PM)
I'm in.

Bob Phillips
Message: Posted by: Steven Youell (Dec 20, 2011 11:14PM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-20 22:37, MeetMagicMike wrote:
If any one else wants to put the pledge in your signature just go to your profile and copy and paste this into your signature:[/quote]

Mike-- that is a brilliant idea.

How many here will use it?

SEY
Message: Posted by: FrenchDrop (Dec 20, 2011 11:22PM)
I would if I could get the signature thing to work. I tried putting a different one in my profile earlier tonight, but it doesn't show up in my posts. What am I missing? I thought there might be a "Show signature" option when you submit a new post, but I didn't see one.
Message: Posted by: MeetMagicMike (Dec 20, 2011 11:54PM)
Hmm, I just clicked on Profile, entered my password and scrolled down and edited my signiture. It showed up immedietly. Try again and if it still doesn't work post in technical help area.
Message: Posted by: MickeyPainless (Dec 21, 2011 12:43AM)
Mike,

Do we need to give you credit for the great idea? ;)

MMc
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Dec 21, 2011 01:01AM)
Setting goals is the first step in turning the invisible into the visible."

- Tony Robbins
Message: Posted by: Glenn Morphew (Dec 21, 2011 01:10AM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-21 02:01, vinsmagic wrote:
Setting goals is the first step in turning the invisible into the visible."

- Tony Robbins
[/quote]

I take it Tony doesn't know about sleeving yet, huh?
Message: Posted by: MeetMagicMike (Dec 21, 2011 01:22AM)
[quote]Mike,

Do we need to give you credit for the great idea?
MMC
[/quote]

No, Vernon described something similar in an old manuscript.
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Dec 21, 2011 02:11AM)
Tony knows everything
Message: Posted by: thelearner (Dec 21, 2011 02:21AM)
I'm in. :)

Tim
Message: Posted by: pepka (Dec 21, 2011 03:12AM)
I'm in. Although I admit it WILL be tough for me to follow #2; mostly because Steve Friedberg can be a big stupid poopy-head. Other than that, I'm good. ;-)
Message: Posted by: MagicJuggler (Dec 21, 2011 05:19AM)
I guess I'm in by default, as I've continually tried to make every post relevant, useful, and non-offensive to anyone and plan to continue to do so.

Though at home I use 'endust' instead, I hope that's okay. :)
Message: Posted by: Vlad_77 (Dec 21, 2011 05:58AM)
I'm in.

Ahimsa,
Vlad
Message: Posted by: gostone23 (Dec 21, 2011 08:26AM)
I'm in.

-robert
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Dec 21, 2011 09:56AM)
After consideration I must remove my name
.so now I am Out
I have to be me
vinny
Message: Posted by: Steve Friedberg (Dec 21, 2011 10:06AM)
Vinny:
Please reconsider your decision...I think we'd all benefit from having your buy-in.
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Dec 21, 2011 10:30AM)
Well then I'm in and out,,,,, the reason I say this I will be civil but I stll have to be me my self , this is important

vinny
Message: Posted by: billmarq (Dec 21, 2011 10:32AM)
A noble gesture, Mr. Youell. I hope it works. Count me in.

I would like to say, however, that I had been a member of this board for no more than two weeks when I noticed that a couple of professional magicians here were being "stalked" by two or three other members. They were being insulted, baited into arguments and disrespected. I cannot blame them for wanting to respond, but I agree that it would be better for all if they could be more restrained.

I have been insulted in these forums, for no good reason, so I do know what it feels like.
Message: Posted by: Octopus Sun (Dec 21, 2011 11:05AM)
This is the first forum in 15yrs where I've seen a PLEDGE to not argue needed. LMAOAYSA

my observation...grow up people.

Why take the bait from a bunch of lowly trolls?

Just don't answer, nuff said on this subject.
Message: Posted by: Claudio (Dec 21, 2011 11:23AM)
I find this thread naive. In any case the Café has an etiquette we all implicitly agree to when we join and it says among other things:

"However, like a real Café, we do expect you to act like ladies and gentlemen and show good manners and courtesy while visiting. Thank you."

That surely should be enough to diffuse most issues. Taking another pledge is not going to make any difference - I bet.
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Dec 21, 2011 11:24AM)
My Grandparents were Methodists, and both took the pledge.

The shock and horror when a sherry was taken at Christmas....

I think the meaning of this is spot on, but pledging things gives me the willies.

Too much of an iconoclast, I suppose.
Message: Posted by: FrenchDrop (Dec 21, 2011 01:13PM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-21 12:23, Claudio wrote:
I find this thread naive. In any case the Café has an etiquette we all implicitly agree to when we join and it says among other things:

"However, like a real Café, we do expect you to act like ladies and gentlemen and show good manners and courtesy while visiting. Thank you."

That surely should be enough to diffuse most issues. Taking another pledge is not going to make any difference - I bet.
[/quote]
Yes, the Café already has a very long list of rules, scattered across multiple sticky posts in multiple forums. I won't speak for Steven, but I frankly think it's a lack of enforcement from the management that makes this pledge necessary. An agreement among members to voluntarily follow a handful of very basic rules of courtesy in the absence of oversight by the board's moderators seems like a noble idea to me. I don't know if it'll work or not. If it does work; I don't know how long it will last. But I don't see what good comes from members predicting its failure when it's still trying to get off the ground.
Message: Posted by: FrenchDrop (Dec 21, 2011 01:19PM)
Incidentally...in case anyone else is having the same problem I had: If you want to put the "I took the Pledge" thing in your signature (or anything else), it's necessary to go into "Edit Preferences" in your profile and make sure "Always show signature" is set to "Yes."

Now I have a sig. w00t!
Message: Posted by: MVFAN (Dec 21, 2011 02:01PM)
I'm in.

Pete
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Dec 21, 2011 02:24PM)
Historians opening up new threads in the right place, with a spirit of academic debate, would solve this problem without anyone having to take a pledge.

It's called 'For the Record'. But it doesn't get the same level of readership as the workers.

There's tumbleweed in them thar hills.
Message: Posted by: Patrick Differ (Dec 21, 2011 02:34PM)
Many years ago, I had the pleasure of meeting Steve while working in Nevada, in a venue outside of magic. He came into our place with some friends, and they proceed to shoot up the place. Someone found out Steve was a magician, and when I came into work, that information was passed to me, as I was primarily in charge of game protection. I introduced myself to Steve as both a fellow magician, and the boss of the joint. Steve promptly went to his car, got a copy of his most recent lecture notes, came back in, and gave the copy to me, and then promptly returned to shooting up the house.

I don't know if he remembers, but I sure the hell do. This act of generosity and professionalism makes him one of the good guys, in my book. I always try to follow and associate with the good guys.

Count me in, Steve. It's good to see you're still a very cool cat.
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Dec 21, 2011 02:36PM)
[quote]On 2011-12-21 15:24, tomsk192 wrote:
There's tumbleweed in them thar hills.[/quote]
When I was in Boy Scouts we had a pair of brothers from Scandanavia who used to scour maps looking for hills known as the "Demdars", because of all of the references in old Westerns to . . . well . . . you get the idea.
Message: Posted by: FrenchDrop (Dec 21, 2011 02:43PM)
Har!

I picked up something interesting in my college book-larnin' days: Did you know that the phrase "There's gold in them thar hills!" -- while generally associated today with the California Gold Rush -- was actually spoken in reference to hills in the state of Georgia and a gold find that was made there some 20 years earlier?

I remember a few other things from college, too. I totally got my money's worth. :D
Message: Posted by: MeetMagicMike (Dec 21, 2011 02:58PM)
Patrick Differ, What the heck does "Shoot up the place" mean?
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Dec 21, 2011 02:58PM)
S2000magician & FrenchDrop:

:-D
Message: Posted by: Steve Friedberg (Dec 21, 2011 02:59PM)
:Probably learning the difference between 80 and 86 proof..
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Dec 21, 2011 03:10PM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-21 15:59, Steve Friedberg wrote:
:Probably learning the difference between 80 and 86 proof..
[/quote]

That's simple, it's, erm, TWELVETY!!

(is this correct?)
Message: Posted by: MagicDr (Dec 21, 2011 03:17PM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-21 15:58, MeetMagicMike wrote:
Patrick Differ, What the heck does "Shoot up the place" mean?
[/quote]

I was wondering the same thing. I was imagining some kind of pistolero revolutionary in a sombrero with a revolver in each hand, literally "shooting up the place", but somehow I figured that would be inaccurate :P
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Dec 21, 2011 03:33PM)
[quote]On 2011-12-21 15:58, MeetMagicMike wrote:
Patrick Differ, What the heck does "Shoot up the place" mean?[/quote]
I suspect that he intended it to mean that they had a rollicking good time.
Message: Posted by: Steven Youell (Dec 21, 2011 04:32PM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-21 15:34, Patrick Differ wrote:
I don't know if he remembers, but I sure the hell do. This act of generosity and professionalism makes him one of the good guys, in my book.[/quote]

Holy Crap! I've kept that memory forever! How COOL IS IT that we meet here! However, you may want to define "shoot up the place" a little more so people don't think I carry guns...?

SEY
Message: Posted by: FrenchDrop (Dec 21, 2011 04:35PM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-21 17:32, Steven Youell wrote:
Holy Crap! I've kept that memory forever! How COOL IS IT that we meet here! However, you may want to define "shoot up the place" a little more so people don't think I carry guns...?
[/quote]
I thought it might just mean you were winning an inordinate amount of money from the House. :lol:
Message: Posted by: Steven Youell (Dec 21, 2011 04:37PM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-21 17:35, FrenchDrop wrote:
I thought it might just mean you were winning an inordinate amount of money from the House. :lol:[/quote]
I can neither confirm nor deny any rumors of my gambling or owning a gun... ;)

SEY
Message: Posted by: Patrick Differ (Dec 21, 2011 05:03PM)
[quote]I suspect that he intended it to mean that they had a rollicking good time.[/quote]

That is exactly how I remember it.

And I'm glad to say that place is no longer in existence, which signifies a massive lack of evidence that could either confirm or deny anything regarding anything. All I can say is that there my initials were carved into the bar when it came down, and those chandeliers took a real beating that night.

Happy New Year, everyone. Don't lose your cool.
Message: Posted by: Harald (Dec 22, 2011 03:59AM)
Having read nearly the whole thread, I am convinced Stevens initiative will not help very much, but it is a nice try, so I'm in.

Harald
Message: Posted by: J Christensen (Dec 22, 2011 05:09AM)
I'm in.
Message: Posted by: Magiguy (Dec 22, 2011 10:31AM)
I'm in.




Incidentally, if you want the link in your signature to only show the actual pledge, use this:

I took the BRACKETurl=http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/search_post.php?topic=446374&forum=2&post=7357488BRACKET Pledge BRACKET/urlBRACKET

*remember to replace the word "BRACKET" with actual brackets.
Message: Posted by: Kingman (Dec 22, 2011 10:43AM)
Well, the thought behind this is noble enough for me to include myself. I would keep this pledge without having it anyway, because that is who I am. This is a great site with many, many great resources. I love to learn from everyone as well as assist others. There is much here of great value and if agreeing to this pledge is no more than an outward sign symbolizing my respect and willingness to protect what is here, then it is a good thing.

Kingman
Message: Posted by: MeetMagicMike (Dec 22, 2011 01:20PM)
I had thought of putting something in my signiture before to remimd myself to get to "cute" with my responces.

In another forum I noticed there was one particular guy who responded to any post as if it was polite and factual even when it wasn't. He just responded to the actual points made and ignored everything else. Contrary to what you might think it didn't make him look weak. It make the other guy look petty.

Usually the other guy would just drop the stupid stuff and the conversation went on in a civil way.

The thing is he didn't try to be "clever" polite. You know, where you use polite phrases to put the other guy down and pretend you don't know you are doing it. (plausible deniability). Instead he was actually polite and literaly ignored any junk as if there was a filter and he just never saw it.

So, when you sense a slight, you might want to re-write the post to remove all extraneous junk and just reply to what is left.

Not easy. I know.
Message: Posted by: Steven Youell (Dec 22, 2011 02:37PM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-22 04:59, Harald wrote:
Having read nearly the whole thread, I am convinced Stevens initiative will not help very much, but it is a nice try, so I'm in.[/quote]
It may start slow, but if the people who took the pledge lead by example, it will have an effect.
Particularly if we do the signature thing and how about this; when we're attacked/or someone else is insulted, we post something like:

[quote] Guys, ignore this guy-- I will since I took the pledge...[/quote]
Strictly on a volunteer basis, of course...

SEY
Message: Posted by: MeetMagicMike (Dec 22, 2011 03:25PM)
Steve, I think it would be better to just PM each other and say that. (Ignore this guy...).

If you really wan't to ignore someone you just ignore them. No need to obliquely reference them in the thread.
Message: Posted by: FrenchDrop (Dec 22, 2011 03:29PM)
I tend to agree with Mike.

Also, I'm ignoring him.
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Dec 22, 2011 03:37PM)
This is all a bit 'us and them' isn't it?

As I posted before, although not a pledge taker, I support the sentiment. But now the focus seems to be on 'the pledge'', and not what it represents. So often pledges go this way, and the result can be equally morally repugnant.

As many have pointed out, leading by example is the way to go: some may consider it to be akin to practicing the social gospel.

I hope it has a positive effect. Might I encourage users to open up crediting debates in the correct forum? That would also help.
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Dec 22, 2011 03:38PM)
I'm so ignoring you, FrenchDrop.
Message: Posted by: FrenchDrop (Dec 22, 2011 04:07PM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-22 16:37, tomsk192 wrote:
This is all a bit 'us and them' isn't it?

As I posted before, although not a pledge taker, I support the sentiment. But now the focus seems to be on 'the pledge'', and not what it represents. [/quote]
How so? Is it the sig thing? 'Cause nobody's suggested anyone has to do that.

And of course no one has to agree to the pledge. I don't see it as an "us and them" thing, but rather just a way for members to acknowledge that communication in The Workers has been...troubled...and that they'd like to see it improve and will do their part to improve it.

To me, the most important thing about this thread is just the acknowledgement that things are messed up in this forum -- that it's very nearly broken -- and that things could be improved with a little more emphasis on thinking before posting. Everyone who publicly says "Yeah, I agree with that" is someone who'll presumably think a little more about what they post, just to be sure it doesn't contradict anything they agreed to here.

Or something. I think it's a good idea, at least. Maybe it's as overly optimistic as, say, trying to get people to discuss crediting and provenance in the designated area for those discussions ( :D ) -- but that's a worthwhile goal, too.
Message: Posted by: metaljohn (Dec 22, 2011 04:11PM)
I've been insulted before on this forum for asking what some saw as a dumb question. I responded respectfully. I actually asked why he responded sarcastically to a genuinely innocent question. Well, my post and the insulter got deleted. I guess if ever I get insulted in the future, I'll just pretend the post never was posted.

And with that, I say "I'm in"
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Dec 22, 2011 04:22PM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-22 17:07, FrenchDrop wrote
Maybe it's as overly optimistic as, say, trying to get people to discuss crediting and provenance in the designated area for those discussions ( :D ) -- but that's a worthwhile goal, too.
[/quote]

Aw, shucks, your glass and mine are half full. I'm still ignoring you, though ;-)

It is easy to take sides when viewing a bear fight. But I notice, thinking of several examples at The Magic Café, how very informative and pacific certain people can be when not engaged with one foe or another. My worry is concerned with the potential to alienate certain members who often contribute excellent information; I am thinking in particular of the more bookish people. It would be all of our loss if those people stopped contributing.
Message: Posted by: Steven Youell (Dec 22, 2011 05:08PM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-22 16:25, MeetMagicMike wrote:
Steve, I think it would be better to just PM each other and say that. (Ignore this guy...).

If you really wan't to ignore someone you just ignore them. No need to obliquely reference them in the thread.
[/quote]

Yeah-- you're probably right. Just putting the idea out there...

SEY
Message: Posted by: MeetMagicMike (Dec 22, 2011 05:28PM)
Sometimes I wish the forum had a couple of buttons to ignore people:

1) Ignore this person in this thread

2) Ignore this person in all threads for one week

There would also be a counter that would tell you how many people are currently ignoring you.

That way people would realize they had to make their point while at the same time not ****ing every one off.

I know a lot of people might want an ignore forever button but I think it should be just a week so you have to reconsider the situation.
Message: Posted by: MagicofDesperado (Dec 22, 2011 05:29PM)
Being new here I think this is a positive step in the right direction. Its pretty sad that often threads here resort to sniping and such, but frankly any field I've ever indulged in has the same amount of vitriol and personal attacks associated with what is supposed to be rational discussion of the given topic at hand.

Instead of the 10 minute aspect of the pledge, if you're going to offer constructive criticism, just keep in mind the tonality of your writing, such as offering your opinion or knowledge on the basis that as far as you know, this is what you think....versus...insinuating theft, plagiarism as the precursor to your criticism etc. Keep to the facts and personal preference clearly explained. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, just express it in a positive manner so that people may derive knowledge and insight into the question or situation at hand.

Like in all such matter however I think it all boils down to an old saying (paraphrasing) " For those who understand no explanation is necessary; For those who do not, no explanation possible"

Dave
Message: Posted by: SpringBizkit (Dec 23, 2011 12:41AM)
Well, I barely post very much on these forums.. so im' pretty sure I can keep the pledge :P lol.
count me in tooooo!
Message: Posted by: Shawn Evans (Dec 23, 2011 10:18AM)
I'm In!
Message: Posted by: Steven Youell (Dec 23, 2011 08:24PM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-22 17:22, tomsk192 wrote:
My worry is concerned with the potential to alienate certain members who often contribute excellent information; I am thinking in particular of the more bookish people. It would be all of our loss if those people stopped contributing.[/quote]
Could you clarify this? Are you saying that if someone has extensive knowledge of magic and great skill we should tolerate their bad behavior?

SEY
Message: Posted by: Magiman (Dec 23, 2011 09:30PM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-23 21:24, Steven Youell wrote:

Could you clarify this? Are you saying that if someone has extensive knowledge of magic and great skill we should tolerate their bad behavior?

SEY
[/quote]

If you are referring to HL, definitely. The people who put up with it most, and then put down other members of this board in HL's defense can be recognized inside and around the slipcover of his new book "Special Effects." Just saying...
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Dec 23, 2011 11:05PM)
Oooh, thanks for mentioning [b]SPECIAL EFFECTS[/b] and the opportunity for a plug. Thanks so much. No, for those who've asked, it is NOT on my magic website. Go to my personal email address (with the word "earthlink" in it) and we can talk. You can also learn about other stuff of mine that's currently available. Just saying... (PS: You're not referring to quotes like the one on the rear of the dustjacket, are you, Magiman? "[i]Lorayne is a god!! Pure and simple. There is no need to get "used" to his writing style {unless you are accustomed to 3rd rate juvenile publications}. He speaks with a magician's voice and covers all as succinctly as a surgeon. His Afterthoughts not only filet each piece but represent a style of authorship that has yet to be improved upon. Buy anything and everything with Harry Lorayne's name on it because you can be assured of its value[/i]." (Magiguy; The Magic Café) I realize how upsetting this must be to you, Magiman. So sorry.
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Dec 23, 2011 11:12PM)
For those who care - this is what I mean when I say that I never start these things, I only respond. Please note - nobody else mentioned my name (unless he means [b]H[/b]ector [b]L[/b]oring) until just above mine above. I just believe that remarks like that should be responded to. I do appreciate that he puts me in the "extensive knowledge of magic and great skill" category, but insulting it still is. (That's what I mean, Opine.)
Message: Posted by: Steven Youell (Dec 23, 2011 11:43PM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-23 22:30, Magiman wrote:
If you are referring to HL, definitely. The people who put up with it most, and then put down other members of this board in HL's defense can be recognized inside and around the slipcover of his new book "Special Effects."[/quote]
I was referring to several people, none of which I will name.

I would greatly appreciate it if you would not post antagonistic posts in this thread. About anyone.

SEY
Message: Posted by: Steven Youell (Dec 23, 2011 11:58PM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-24 00:12, Harry Lorayne wrote:
I just believe that remarks like that should be responded to.[/quote]
Harry: you're wrong.This is not the real world. It's the internet. Communications work differently.
I have about 25 years of experience on forums. (I think-- when did Windows 3.1 come out?)

Every single time you respond, you make it worse. Not only that, every time you respond in anger or call names, you make it exponentially worse. A few times, you've started things by not understanding how communications on the internet work. You did, however, apologize when the situation was explained. But for the most case, other people do start it. You know what? At that point, only YOU can stop the exchange.

Pointing out a troll's low IQ won't stop them.
Citing facts and proving you're right won't stop them.
Arguing with them won't stop them.
Calling them names won't stop them.

In the decades I've been on these things, I've only seen ONE tactic that works: starving them of attention. Not only that, by ignoring them you win. Because when you ignore them, they don't get what they want.

It's your choice-- if you want them to be happy and feel good about themselves, then respond. That's what they want. So feed them if you want. Or you could starve them to death... of attention.

Regardless of what you decide to do, I'd consider it a personal favor if you would not respond to them in this thread.

Please.

SEY
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Dec 24, 2011 12:00AM)
Harry listen to Steve
you are too well respected in the magic community
vinny
Message: Posted by: Steven Youell (Dec 24, 2011 12:17AM)
Lest someone else mention this-- for a very long time I was a complete online jerk.
I wasn't a troll and didn't call names. But you know that phrase "doesn't tolerate fools gladly"?
I took that expression to such an extreme that thinking about it now makes me ashamed.
I've learned and I've changed but sometimes it's still hard not to slice and dice someone I feel is using bad logic, incorrect facts, etc. So my hands are not bloodless. However the stains are starting to come off. ;)

SEY

P.S. BOY did that sound literary pretentious. But it's true.
Message: Posted by: MeetMagicMike (Dec 24, 2011 01:03AM)
Well said Steven Youell,

Let me just add....well I can't think of anything to add.
Message: Posted by: Adam1975 (Dec 24, 2011 05:02AM)
Where can all the trolls and idiots post tho...(although,who cares!!) ;-)
Message: Posted by: Claudio (Dec 24, 2011 05:09AM)
Indeed...
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Dec 24, 2011 08:32AM)
Okay. You're right, of course. I myself have said it soooo many times - responding makes those "small" people feel "bigger." I will try my darndest; promise.
Message: Posted by: billmarq (Dec 24, 2011 08:42AM)
One member here, a total stranger, actually took the time to PM me and tell me that my avatar photo resembles a corpse. How is that for Internet communication? It's all in good fun. You really cannot take any of this stuff seriously. Face to face most of would get along fine with each other.
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Dec 24, 2011 08:55AM)
This si something to think about

A mistake is always forgivable, rarely excusable and always unacceptable."

- Robert Fripp
Message: Posted by: lynnef (Dec 24, 2011 12:34PM)
I thought it strange when I heard that great boxers (in fact, world champions) need bodyguards! This is simply because there are fellows out there who would want to provoke the champ. Perhaps they could get their name in the paper, or perhaps they could even get a lawsuit going if a punch was thrown by a man with registered fists. Or perhaps they're drunk, like the occasional guy who climbs into the lion's cage after the zoo's closing time thinking he can win that fight. One of my previous posts complained about the 'vendettas v vips; so, I am grateful for this topic and pledge, Steven. Happy Holidays to all & don't drink too much egg nog, Lynn
Message: Posted by: Steven Youell (Dec 24, 2011 02:50PM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-24 09:32, Harry Lorayne wrote:
Okay. You're right, of course. I myself have said it soooo many times - responding makes those "small" people feel "bigger." I will try my darndest; promise.[/quote]
You've got my sympathy and help Harry-- I know from experience it ain't easy. That 10 minute rule was even modified. The guy who taught me told me AN HOUR! But it works even if you have to adjust the time. Thinking about how a message will throw gasoline on a fire is very helpful.

SEY
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Dec 24, 2011 07:29PM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-23 21:24, Steven Youell wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-12-22 17:22, tomsk192 wrote:
My worry is concerned with the potential to alienate certain members who often contribute excellent information; I am thinking in particular of the more bookish people. It would be all of our loss if those people stopped contributing.[/quote]
Could you clarify this? Are you saying that if someone has extensive knowledge of magic and great skill we should tolerate their bad behavior?

SEY
[/quote]

I'm all for toleration. Fussing and fighting is unpleasant, and if it puts people off contributing then it is also deplorable.

Happy Christmas to you and all.

Tom
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Dec 24, 2011 08:01PM)
[quote]On 2011-12-24 20:29, tomsk192 wrote:
Fussing and fighting is unpleasant, and if it puts people off contributing then it is also deplorable.[/quote]
Similarly for boorish rudeness.
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Dec 27, 2011 07:00PM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-24 21:01, S2000magician wrote:
[quote]On 2011-12-24 20:29, tomsk192 wrote:
Fussing and fighting is unpleasant, and if it puts people off contributing then it is also deplorable.[/quote]
Similarly for boorish rudeness.
[/quote]

It is good to hear from the polite side of magic. Did you have a good Christmas, old chap?
Message: Posted by: Steve Friedberg (Dec 27, 2011 10:11PM)
Best solution for all may be to emulate Harry Truman. Truman often received critical letters while he was in the White House. He'd read them, and respond in letters filled with sarcasm and vitriol. And then, once he'd written the letters...he'd crumple up the letters and throw them out. The Internet makes it too easy for us to disseminate our thoughts without really thinking whether it would make sense for those thoughts will benefit us by being out there.

Food for thought.
Message: Posted by: smileymcsmiley (Dec 27, 2011 11:02PM)
I don't really contribute that much but will be happy to say I am in for this too.

I used to troll people a lot when I was much younger. Why? Because it was fun to get any reaction at the time. I am not sixteen anymore though. that's why anyone who reacts is known as Troll Bait. Its always good to remember that. As people have said before if you respond in anyway shape or form you are making their day. Alternatively someone has mistaken what you have said. Either way I always take to heart what my dad told me when I started secondary school. Is what someone said about you true? Yes. Then don't worry about it. Is what they said about you false? Yes? Then don't worry about it, its not true so it shouldn't affect you.
Ignore the keyboard warriors and the trolls and they will eventually go away :)
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Dec 28, 2011 12:33AM)
[quote]On 2011-12-27 20:00, tomsk192 wrote:
[quote]On 2011-12-24 21:01, S2000magician wrote:
[quote]On 2011-12-24 20:29, tomsk192 wrote:
Fussing and fighting is unpleasant, and if it puts people off contributing then it is also deplorable.[/quote]
Similarly for boorish rudeness.[/quote]
It is good to hear from the polite side of magic. Did you have a good Christmas, old chap?[/quote]
I am home from Charlotte for Christmas and New Year's, and our daughter flew down from Seattle for four days: it was fabulous!

How about yours?
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Dec 28, 2011 07:33PM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-28 01:33, S2000magician wrote:
[quote]On 2011-12-27 20:00, tomsk192 wrote:
[quote]On 2011-12-24 21:01, S2000magician wrote:
[quote]On 2011-12-24 20:29, tomsk192 wrote:
Fussing and fighting is unpleasant, and if it puts people off contributing then it is also deplorable.[/quote]
Similarly for boorish rudeness.[/quote]
It is good to hear from the polite side of magic. Did you have a good Christmas, old chap?[/quote]
I am home from Charlotte for Christmas and New Year's, and our daughter flew down from Seattle for four days: it was fabulous!

How about yours?
[/quote]

That's great!

We had the kids, my parents and two in-laws. I cooked a goose, which worked out very well indeed. A positively Dickensian Christmas for us here.
Message: Posted by: sketchomagic (Jan 18, 2012 06:55PM)
Is it to late to say, "I'm in!"
Message: Posted by: Steven Youell (Jan 18, 2012 07:03PM)
It's never too late.

SEY
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Jan 18, 2012 08:30PM)
I can't be in. Sorry.
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Jan 18, 2012 08:53PM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-18 21:30, AMcD wrote:
I can't be in. Sorry.
[/quote]

Nicely put.

Great stuff you've been sharing AMcD, thanks for the online resources.
Message: Posted by: TJ Halford (Jan 18, 2012 09:13PM)
IN! this should be mandatory
Message: Posted by: Alewishus (Jan 18, 2012 10:08PM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-18 22:13, TJ Halford wrote:
IN! this should be mandatory
[/quote]

Ahhh,yes! The 'mandatory pledge'! Excellent choice!

And for an appetizer, would you be interested in an 'empty promise'?

We have several to chose from...


A.
Message: Posted by: Zombie Magic (Jan 18, 2012 10:08PM)
I'm in!

Clarke
Message: Posted by: The Amazing Mr. H (Jan 19, 2012 12:53AM)
I'm in.
Message: Posted by: Vincero (Jan 19, 2012 03:22AM)
After seeing Kyle's thread, I'm in. No need for all of the hating.

Zac
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Jan 19, 2012 06:22AM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-18 22:13, TJ Halford wrote:
IN! this should be mandatory
[/quote]

Have you ever heard the words "freedom of choice"?
Message: Posted by: 1tepa1 (Jan 19, 2012 08:03AM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-19 07:22, AMcD wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-01-18 22:13, TJ Halford wrote:
IN! this should be mandatory
[/quote]

Have you ever heard the words "freedom of choice"?
[/quote]

And freedom of opinion, and freedom of expression and freedom of speech. Whatever york wanna call it.

But those things don't apply to a forum. The owner can make any rules they see fitting.
Message: Posted by: TJ Halford (Jan 19, 2012 08:22AM)
@AMcD ~ Absolutely, and I am a firm believer in "Freedom of Choice". However, I am also a firm believer in a proper code of conduct, responsibility, and consequences for ones actions.


And if a user "chooses" to take actions that insult or degrade another user, or detract from the purpose of this site; which is to help us work "together" to improve the magic that we bring to the world, then there should be consequences for those actions.

Same as work, schools, or any other public venue
Message: Posted by: Alewishus (Jan 19, 2012 08:29AM)
Yes, but when did Mr. Youell become the owner?

Nevermind, I'm in, contingent on what the uniforms and badges look like.


A.
Message: Posted by: 1tepa1 (Jan 19, 2012 08:38AM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-19 09:29, Alewishus wrote:
Yes, but when did Mr. Youell become the owner?

Nevermind, I'm in, contingent on what the uniforms and badges look like.


A.
[/quote]

He didn't? That's why this is a pledge and not mandatory, no?
Message: Posted by: Alewishus (Jan 19, 2012 09:26AM)
You brought up the owner thing...so, I am confused?

[/quote]
But those things don't apply to a forum. The owner can make any rules they see fitting.
[/quote]

A.
Message: Posted by: 1tepa1 (Jan 19, 2012 09:38AM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-19 10:26, Alewishus wrote:
You brought up the owner thing...so, I am confused?


But those things don't apply to a forum. The owner can make any rules they see fitting.


A.
[/quote]

Yes, I did bring it up but in no way did I say that it was somehow linked to mr. Steven.

I just responded to what Arnold said. That even thought we have a freedom of speech there is still rules here in Café, there are some things you can discuss legally in public or other forums, but you can't do that here. Not even in the off-topic forum. So we don't have a complete freedom of expression here.
Message: Posted by: Andrew Zuber (Jan 19, 2012 09:47AM)
I think that NOT taking this pledge is akin to saying, "I reserve the right to be rude and argumentative if I so choose," which is too bad. I see a similar trend in job postings in the entertainment industry - "applicants must be thick-skinned." in other words, we get to treat you like garbage and you need to just take it. I don't apply for those jobs because if those people can't even show me respect, I have no interest in putting up with their nonsense. Same should hold true here. If you are actively vowing NOT to be nice to other members on this board, you oughta be ignored. Go start a forum somewhere else for people who would prefer to be hateful to each other.
Message: Posted by: Merc Man (Jan 19, 2012 09:49AM)
I'm In Steve.............on the proviso that I NEVER have to use a close-up mat! ;)
Message: Posted by: TJ Halford (Jan 19, 2012 10:02AM)
I apologize if my initial reply has struck some of you the wrong way. I didn't intend to start a debate. =)

It just seemed that so many of us were in agreement that this type of behavior being referred to should be stopped, and there are probably many other whom don't frequent this area of the Café who would agree with us as well. We have all been learning since kindergarten and grade school about how to treat each other respectfully, and how to handle conflict. We are all held accountable for our actions in real life. I just don't see why here should be any different. especially when it takes away from the intended purpose of these forums.

Now, as a relatively new user, I have absolutely no authority to make this mandatory. I also have no clue as to whether Mr Youell does either. I was merely expressing my opinion on the topic, and made the suggestion simply because I see no point in complaining about what is going on, if there is going to be no action in stopping it.

I am sorry if I aggrivated or offended anyone, and hope this clarifies things
Message: Posted by: Steven Youell (Jan 19, 2012 10:09AM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-19 10:49, Merc Man wrote:
I'm In Steve.............on the proviso that I NEVER have to use a close-up mat! ;)[/quote]
Close=up mats are not people... lol

SEY
Message: Posted by: Steven Youell (Jan 19, 2012 10:15AM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-19 11:02, TJ Halford wrote:
I also have no clue as to whether Mr Youell does either.[/quote]
I have no authority here. None.

And TJ? Everyone who responded to your post understood [i]exactly[/i] what you meant.
Most of them are trying to provoke a response in a thread that is trying to get people not to respond to them...

SEY
Message: Posted by: Octopus Sun (Jan 19, 2012 10:30AM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-19 10:47, Andrew Zuber wrote:
I think that NOT taking this pledge is akin to saying, "I reserve the right to be rude and argumentative if I so choose," which is too bad.
[/quote]
BS Andrew. I'm not rude etc.
What you say is just plain WRONG!
maybe for people like you and those who post "I took the Pledge" you need some sort of proof you are BETTER than others...what ever.
Don't go calling people names...ie rude argumentative etc because that the way you and the others behave...you just fell into your own trap.
You people need some self control.

When you all joined this site the TOA you agreed to say's it all...
that's the last I'll post on this subject.
Message: Posted by: 1tepa1 (Jan 19, 2012 10:58AM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-19 11:30, Duaut wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-01-19 10:47, Andrew Zuber wrote:
I think that NOT taking this pledge is akin to saying, "I reserve the right to be rude and argumentative if I so choose," which is too bad.
[/quote]
BS Andrew. I'm not rude etc.
What you say is just plain WRONG!
maybe for people like you and those who post "I took the Pledge" you need some sort of proof you are BETTER than others...what ever.
Don't go calling people names...ie rude argumentative etc because that the way you and the others behave...you just fell into your own trap.
You people need some self control.

When you all joined this site the TOA you agreed to say's it all...
that's the last I'll post on this subject.
[/quote]

Have you not seen where this forum has come? I know there is "rules" that you need to agree to when you register, but the fact is that this place isn't about "magicians helping magicians" anymore. I hope this thread can remind people that we can infact argue and disagree [b]respectfully[/b], or at least without being [b]rude[/b].

And I actually like to think that is has helped some people, myself included. This way when we are about to post something not so nice we will remember that " dammn I took the pledge, let's try to keep the promise".
Message: Posted by: Alewishus (Jan 19, 2012 11:09AM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-19 11:15, Steven Youell wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-01-19 11:02, TJ Halford wrote:
I also have no clue as to whether Mr Youell does either.[/quote]
I have no authority here. None.

And TJ? Everyone who responded to your post understood [i]exactly[/i] what you meant.
Most of them are trying to provoke a response in a thread that is trying to get people not to respond to them...

SEY
[/quote]

What’s wrong with “provoking a response” or “starting a debate”?
Whenever you start a thread you are explicitly provoking responses, why else do you start a thread or add a comment?

And yes, we all understood T.J.: he thought that the pledge should be mandatory. I thought the mandatory part amusing; I wasn’t offended in the least.
Fact is I think pledges, freely entered into, are great! According to divorce statistics they work just about half the time! I wish they kept statistics on shotgun marriages so we could determine the efficacy of mandatory pledges.

If anyone has read Dan Ariely’s book, Predictably Irrational, you know that being reminded of codes of conduct etc. before an exam did apparently reduce cheating – would this also work here in regards to polite behavior, I don’t know? Would it work long term – I doubt it.

A.

Ps.: Could anyone help me with scripture for WWJD when the green light turns amber?
Message: Posted by: Vlad_77 (Jan 19, 2012 11:32AM)
*Metaphorically passes everyone here their favorite beverage*

Folks, much of the passion that sometimes manifests itself in nastiness - and I am guilty of that nastiness too - comes from our love of magic and that we have a very cool virtual convention here at The Café. I like Steven's idea but what I see happening is that some people are misinterpreting it as some sort of Nazi ritual. I cannot speak for Steven but I sense that the pledge in spirit is a mechanism in which we work as a community to minimize a good deal of the plain meanness we see here.

To quote a very VERY famous rabbi from 2 millenia ago, it is the not the letter of law but the spirit of it that is important. Let's be honest folks: there are times when threads have become just plain ugly with character assassinations, ad hominem argument, and puerile pettiness. I do not read anywhere in Steven's pledge where we cannot correct a member who may have made an erroneous argument. If that was the case then we might as well pack it all in and go do spring flowers. But I think at least it is the HOW we address certain issues. Many of us have never met and there is the problem that text cannot convey conversational language in ways that are as easily interpreted as physical presence. I cannot see your body language, your eyes, nor hear your voice and vice-versa. So to me the pledge is to try to bear that in mind and go gently.

Ahimsa (that word means a lot and I still struggle to attain its lofty meaning),

Vlad
Message: Posted by: Merc Man (Jan 19, 2012 11:38AM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-19 11:09, Steven Youell wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-01-19 10:49, Merc Man wrote:
I'm In Steve.............on the proviso that I NEVER have to use a close-up mat! ;)[/quote]
Close=up mats are not people... lol

SEY
[/quote]
Agreed mate.......but that don't stop some people on here trying to convince me that their lives depend on the bloody things! ;)
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Jan 19, 2012 12:20PM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-19 11:15, Steven Youell wrote:

Most of them are trying to provoke a response in a thread that is trying to get people not to respond to them...

SEY
[/quote]
From someone requiring no "war/flame/troll" on this forum, I find this one delightful...
Message: Posted by: Alewishus (Jan 19, 2012 12:30PM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-19 12:32, Vlad_77 wrote:
*Metaphorically passes everyone here their favorite beverage*

I like Steven's idea but what I see happening is that some people are misinterpreting it as some sort of Nazi ritual.

Vlad
[/quote]

Misinterpreting it as some sort of Nazi ritual! No! Absolutely not!

Silly, self-important, drivel! Maybe. (sipping Ardbeg)

A.

btw. Wore out my close-up mat Tebowing last weekend.
Message: Posted by: FrenchDrop (Jan 19, 2012 01:24PM)
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the war room!"
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Jan 19, 2012 01:54PM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-19 10:47, Andrew Zuber wrote:
I think that NOT taking this pledge is akin to saying, "I reserve the right to be rude and argumentative if I so choose," which is too bad.
[/quote]

Well, you can think that; it is both combative and coercive. I'll stick to my own moral outlook, whilst trying to stay within the rules of this forum.
Message: Posted by: FrenchDrop (Jan 19, 2012 02:39PM)
I think this thread -- and the whole Café in general -- could do with a great deal more benefit-of-the-doubt from a lot of people on both sides. Part of the reason so many threads descend into bickering is that too many members tend to go straight to Defcon 1 the instant they read anything that can remotely be perceived as offensive to their sensibilities...or even as a slight.
Message: Posted by: Steven Youell (Jan 19, 2012 03:00PM)
People who don't want to participate don't have to do so.
And they certainly don't have to belittle those who do want to participate.

People who do, aren't better than those who don't.
People who don't, aren't better than those who do.

It's just an idea to help the people who want to avoid participating in flame wars and letting others provoke them.

That's all.

SEY
Message: Posted by: smileymcsmiley (Jan 19, 2012 07:55PM)
It's such a shame that a good natured well meant topic has drawn fire from people. I agree that this should not be needed but other topics have shown otherwise people get angry too quickly. If a great deal of the topics descend into name calling then it becomes difficult for everyone when using searches to find what they need when they have to trawl through post after post that goes off tangent from the original question of a topic about who said what and blah blah blah.
Take the pledge or don't take it but don't sit there and b***h about it. Its not some kind of conspiracy to force everyone to be nice to people, now that would be plain dangerous!
Message: Posted by: donny (Jan 19, 2012 08:23PM)
IN
Message: Posted by: Andrew Zuber (Jan 19, 2012 08:39PM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-19 16:00, Steven Youell wrote:
People who don't want to participate don't have to do so.
And they certainly don't have to belittle those who do want to participate.

People who do, aren't better than those who don't.
People who don't, aren't better than those who do.

It's just an idea to help the people who want to avoid participating in flame wars and letting others provoke them.

That's all.

SEY
[/quote]
Absolutely. Thank you again for starting this. Seems as though no one was specifically pointing fingers at some of the people who suddenly became defensive about the subject. Interesting to see how different people react. At least it helps me to better understand who truly wants to contribute something meaningful to this board, and who it's best to simply ignore. I don't care what words of wisdom some people have; if they can't be kind in their delivery and act like adults, it's not worth my time to listen to what they have to say.
Message: Posted by: Alewishus (Jan 20, 2012 01:22AM)
"Seems as though no one was specifically pointing fingers at some of the people who suddenly became defensive about the subject."

WTF?

A.

btw: I'll be kind and act like an adult: GO TO BED!
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Jan 20, 2012 03:12AM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-19 21:39, Andrew Zuber wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-01-19 16:00, Steven Youell wrote:
People who don't want to participate don't have to do so.
And they certainly don't have to belittle those who do want to participate.

People who do, aren't better than those who don't.
People who don't, aren't better than those who do.

It's just an idea to help the people who want to avoid participating in flame wars and letting others provoke them.

That's all.

SEY
[/quote]
Absolutely. Thank you again for starting this. Seems as though no one was specifically pointing fingers at some of the people who suddenly became defensive about the subject. Interesting to see how different people react. At least it helps me to better understand who truly wants to contribute something meaningful to this board, and who it's best to simply ignore. I don't care what words of wisdom some people have; if they can't be kind in their delivery and act like adults, it's not worth my time to listen to what they have to say.
[/quote]

You really are passive agressive aren't you? When you're not just being agressive. With such a shining example of rudeness, it further confirms the meaninglessness of this pledge. Why did you take it Andrew? If anything, your posts have got nastier....

It 'interests' me to see the lines being drawn in the sand here. As I wrote, pages ago, it is all a bit "us and them". I understand Steven's motivation, and support it. However, those acting as his Gestapo really are the limit.
Message: Posted by: Chappo (Jan 20, 2012 07:20AM)
In like a mothertrucker.

Down with the Gestapo.

Vive la revolution.

Workers of the world unite. You have nothing to lose but the trolls.
Message: Posted by: Andrew Zuber (Jan 20, 2012 09:11AM)
Never mind guys. Bowing out. I'll add this to the ever growing list of threads I just won't participate in because they all seem to end up as arguments. It ain't worth my time. Enjoy your bickering.
Message: Posted by: Slide (Jan 20, 2012 09:56AM)
I look at my magic bookshelf and all the stuff I need to read. I look at my practice table and think about how little time there is to perfect the art. I look at my idea book and think about how little time there is in my life to create my own astonishing effects.

And you guys waste time doing this.
Message: Posted by: Merc Man (Jan 20, 2012 12:08PM)
You know the really strange thing about the Café?

I spend most of my time reading/contributing within the coin sections of this forum. Posts between guys are generally very helpful and respectful. The same can be said for the various threads covering classic magic and books.

Where do I see most bickering? Undoubtedly within the card magic and 'new tricks released' sections. Maybe it's purely a coincidence but I wonder where most new(er) magicians spend most of their time on here?

I wonder how many are those same annoying know-alls we see at conventions and magic club lectures; forever sitting there juggling and showing off with inane card flourishes when their time would be better spent LISTENING to the performer? They are the type of person that will always tell you how they have perfected every insignificant card move with the most recent deck of skull-backed playing cards but, in reality, have never performed magic for anyone other than their parents or internet girlfriend. They will wax lyrical over the most recent one trick DVD or pdf; without realising that the trick/move has been around since the 1940's. But what's the point of READING old books?

I could go on...........but I'm sure that some posters on here will be able to associate with my aforementioned words. ;)
Message: Posted by: FrenchDrop (Jan 20, 2012 12:08PM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-20 04:12, tomsk192 wrote:
I understand Steven's motivation, and support it. However, [b]those acting as his Gestapo[b] really are the limit.
[/quote]
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law]Godwin's law[/url].

[i]Godwin observed that, given enough time, in any online discussion—regardless of topic or scope—someone inevitably criticizes some point made in the discussion by comparing it to beliefs held by Hitler and the Nazis.[/i]

[i]There are many corollaries to Godwin's law, some considered more canonical (by being adopted by Godwin himself) than others. For example, there is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever debate was in progress.[/i]
Message: Posted by: Alewishus (Jan 20, 2012 11:53PM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-19 12:32, Vlad_77 wrote:
I like Steven's idea but what I see happening is that some people are misinterpreting it as some sort of Nazi ritual.
[/quote]

A.
Message: Posted by: prg (Jan 21, 2012 12:45AM)
I wonder what kind of false shuffle Hitler preferred.
Message: Posted by: Roger Kelly (Jan 21, 2012 04:57AM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-20 13:08, Merc Man wrote:
... annoying know-alls we see at conventions and magic club lectures; forever sitting there juggling and showing off with inane card flourishes when their time would be better spent LISTENING to the performer?
I could go on...........but I'm sure that some posters on here will be able to associate with my aforementioned words. ;)
[/quote]

I certainly associate with it and the very reason I stopped going to my magic club. I always seemed to end up sitting by the bell who would incessantly cut cards throughout a lecture! Jeesh!

But going back to something else you said Bal: You wanna pop into "Penny" for a good old heated row occasionally. When the self proclaimed, real-deal, psychics drop by - the discussions there make the ones you refer to in the "Workers" section akin to an episode of "Watch With Mother"!

Back on topic now - I've been visiting this thread for a while now and have decided that it's not for me either - but recognise a well-intentioned gesture by Steven. But I cringe at those who feel that the ones that opt out are, by inference, allowing for the right to occasionally abuse!

The rules for this place are plain to see elsewhere.
Message: Posted by: Steven Youell (Jan 21, 2012 10:12AM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-20 10:56, BillMcCloskey wrote:
I look at my magic bookshelf and all the stuff I need to read. I look at my practice table and think about how little time there is to perfect the art. I look at my idea book and think about how little time there is in my life to create my own astonishing effects.

And you guys waste time doing this.[/quote]
I look at one of the largest resources for magic on the web and see magicians calling each other idiots over a particular finger position and think... oh never mind what I think.

[b]I can tell you this: I know of at least 6 top flight, world famous magicians who no longer post here because of the nonsense that goes on here.

That's what we lost.
Despite the Terms of Service.[/b]

I also know that it takes self-discipline to keep from responding to trolls. That was my intention-- to help people like me who WANT to ignore trolls, but sometimes just can't resist it.

My intentions were good but I apparently did not have the foresight to see it would result in a few people referring to me as a Self-Serving Nazi. Should have seen that one coming, I guess. :(

So argue on, folks-- but I don't think you'll resolve anything. So I'll move on and hope others will as well...

SEY
Message: Posted by: Steve Friedberg (Jan 21, 2012 11:24AM)
I'm going to come down firmly on Steven's side. I signed up early for the pledge, under the theory that it takes two to argue...and I'm not going to be one of them. This has nothing to do with being a Nazi or anything of the sort. This has everything to do with people agreeing to be civil online. You don't need to publicly state that you're taking the pledge...it doesn't matter...but for goodness' sake, let's try restoring a little civility in the discussion here. Even if you disagree with someone else, you can express that disagreement in an honest, yet respectful, way. Name calling and insults serve absolutely no purpose.

I'm a member of several fora in addition to this one. It is not by accident that a number of members of the other boards regularly laugh at the kind of stuff that goes on here. Let's see if we can get back to the original purpose of this board, and to keep it from regularly turning into "Magicians Insulting Magicians."

So, yes. I'm proud to stand with Steven and his pledge.
Message: Posted by: OmniHumpty (Jan 21, 2012 11:43AM)
I'm in!
Message: Posted by: FrenchDrop (Jan 21, 2012 11:53AM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-20 10:56, BillMcCloskey wrote:
And you guys waste time doing this.
[/quote]
Here's what I think about that:

If discussing magic with other magicians is not a waste of time (and I don't think it is), then trying to make our discussions more productive is not a waste of time.

But hey -- I have strange ideas about what is and isn't a waste of time. Personally, I think popping into a thread just to tell all of its participants that they're wasting their time is a waste of time. ;)
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Jan 21, 2012 12:00PM)
FORM THE GODFATHER

http://youtu.be/oFVFkVyQGNQ

BILLY SAYS IT ALL
Message: Posted by: Slide (Jan 21, 2012 02:09PM)
" Personally, I think popping into a thread just to tell all of its participants that they're wasting their time is a waste of time."
right you are. the reason I don't pop in here very often anymore.

6 pages to argue about a pledge. jees.
Message: Posted by: FrenchDrop (Jan 21, 2012 02:31PM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-21 15:09, BillMcCloskey wrote:
" Personally, I think popping into a thread just to tell all of its participants that they're wasting their time is a waste of time."
right you are. the reason I don't pop in here very often anymore.[/quote]
And yet.... ;)
Message: Posted by: Alewishus (Jan 21, 2012 02:58PM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-21 01:45, prg wrote:
I wonder what kind of false shuffle Hitler preferred.
[/quote]

Pretty sure Hitler was a coin guy.

A.
Message: Posted by: The Burnaby Kid (Jan 21, 2012 03:19PM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-21 15:58, Alewishus wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-01-21 01:45, prg wrote:
I wonder what kind of false shuffle Hitler preferred.
[/quote]

Pretty sure Hitler was a coin guy.

A.
[/quote]

Hey, easy now, no need to insult Hitler like that.

RELAX EVERYBODY, I'M KIDDING!

(I'm not really kidding.)
Message: Posted by: Slide (Jan 21, 2012 05:29PM)
"And yet.... "

And yet, you've been able to squeeze out 548 posts in the 3 months you've been a member and I've been able to squeeze out 436 posts in the 11 years I've been a member. You win! You obviously know more and use your time more wisely than myself. I bow to the superior person.
Message: Posted by: FrenchDrop (Jan 21, 2012 06:30PM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-21 18:29, BillMcCloskey wrote:
"And yet.... "

And yet, you've been able to squeeze out 548 posts in the 3 months you've been a member and I've been able to squeeze out 436 posts in the 11 years I've been a member. You win! You obviously know more and use your time more wisely than myself. I bow to the superior person.
[/quote]
What?! When did I say I know more than you or that I'm a superior person? :confused:

I will say this: I don't regret a minute of the time I've spent on the Café. I've learned a lot I didn't know about magic in general and card magic in particular. I think it's really accelerated the pace at which I've gotten back into magic.

I don't consider it a waste of time at all. Those who do, well...I'd *expect* them to post here less than I do. I've never been a post-counter, and I certainly wouldn't assume anyone who has fewer posts than me knows less than I do -- which is why I never have and never will even imply that.
Message: Posted by: Slide (Jan 21, 2012 06:44PM)
Two ears. One mouth.
Message: Posted by: FrenchDrop (Jan 21, 2012 06:46PM)
Okay, Bill.

I'm going to let it go. I don't want to force you to make any more posts in a thread you consider a waste of time. :bigsmile:
Message: Posted by: ThatsJustWrong! (Jan 21, 2012 08:38PM)
I was once asked to write the by-laws for an organization. I ended up with:

Article I: Don't be stupid.

Article II: Don't be a jerk.

Article II: Gentlemen can agree to disagree.

It was pretty much agreed that with these in place, everything else should work itself out.

I'm in, Steven!
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Jan 21, 2012 11:20PM)
To all here on this post,,,, french drop has been more than a gentelman on the Café,,,,,, and the amount of posts have nothing to do with anyhthing.....so please fet off his case
vinny
Message: Posted by: gary31525 (Jan 21, 2012 11:32PM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-22 00:20, vinsmagic wrote:
To all here on this post,,,, french drop has been more than a gentelman on the Café,,,,,, and the amount of posts have nothing to do with anyhthing.....so please fet off his case
vinny
[/quote]

Agreed :cheers:
Message: Posted by: Merc Man (Jan 22, 2012 04:28AM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-22 00:32, gary31525 wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-01-22 00:20, vinsmagic wrote:
To all here on this post,,,, french drop has been more than a gentelman on the Café,,,,,, and the amount of posts have nothing to do with anyhthing.....so please fet off his case
vinny
[/quote]

Agreed :cheers:
[/quote]

Seconded. I've had a couple of disagreements with F.D. and we don't always see 'eye to eye'.........but I'd still buy him a pint as he's clearly a good'un.
Message: Posted by: FrenchDrop (Jan 22, 2012 05:43AM)
Thank you, gents. Much appreciated!
Message: Posted by: Adam1975 (Jan 22, 2012 06:22AM)
The irony of the pledge disintergrating in a thread about the pledge............. :wow:
Message: Posted by: Roger Kelly (Jan 22, 2012 11:05AM)
And anyone signing up must use this as their avatar!

Dust and protect!
Message: Posted by: kcg5 (Jan 22, 2012 12:50PM)
First post in thread-GREAT!!! And then it slowly devolves into what we all knew it would become, a fight. I don't see it happening. PLenty of people do "the pledge" anyway, everyday-people like Pepka or Vlad, and then there are..others. But, I'll do my best.

Still, Steve, a great Idea. Would love to see the staff take it on as well.
Message: Posted by: Roger Kelly (Jan 22, 2012 01:29PM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-22 13:50, kcg5 wrote:
Would love to see the staff take it on as well.
[/quote]
Hear, Hear!
Message: Posted by: Slide (Jan 22, 2012 06:05PM)
"I'm going to let it go. I don't want to force you to make any more posts in a thread you consider a waste of time. "

I don't consider the thread a waste of time. I consider argueing about the thread a waste of time, which is what it seems to evolve into. And if I made mention on your number of posts, you can do what you want certainly. This is more about me shaking my head about what a suck of time forums like this can be. You and me both.

There is a great tendancy and urge to waste time here, for whatever reason. It is fun to talk about magic. But it is better to practice magic, read about magic, improve your routines and acts. I'll be 58 next year. Currently I'm the oldest living male on my father's side of the family in nearly 200 years. My own father died at 54. His father died at 56. His father died at 55.

Time, in other words, is precious. There are people who spend a lot of time here because they are selling products. There are other folks that spend a lot of time here when that time would be better spent getting better at the art, assuming that is the reason they come here in the first place. I only come here to use the archives to research, and drop the occasional post when it interests me.

My post was not meant as a dig on the topic or any person. It was just an expression of sadness seeing all the time wasted that could be better spent making magic a more interesting thing in the world by getting better at it. Reading this forum and endlessly argueing about the minutia of every little word said, jealousies, baiting, trolling, churn churn churn and at the end - have you created a body of work like your heros? I know that is my aim before I shuffle off this mortal coil. It is not done slugging through the usual mind-numbing blah, blah, blah of most of the posts, particularly in this section.
Message: Posted by: FrenchDrop (Jan 22, 2012 06:35PM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-22 19:05, BillMcCloskey wrote:
And if I made mention on your number of posts, you can do what you want certainly.[/quote]
Thanks! :D

[quote]It is fun to talk about magic. But it is better to practice magic, read about magic, improve your routines and acts.[/quote]
I agree that discussing magic with other magicians is fun -- but, for me, it's more than that. It's informative. It's genuinely useful. I suspect I'll feel that way until I believe I know more than any other magician I could conceivably discuss magic with -- and I don't think a day will ever come when I feel that way.

Seriously, Bill: I can understand that you have compelling personal reasons for believing that message boards are a waste of your time. If you don't feel you get anything worthwhile out of them, it makes absolute sense that you'd avoid them. But I think you need to speak for yourself and leave it at that. You can't know how much time anyone else on this board spends practicing, reading, performing, creating...so I don't think you should presume to say that anyone else is wasting whatever time he spends here.
Message: Posted by: Slide (Jan 22, 2012 09:03PM)
French,

Let me illustrate what I mean. I've spent the last few hours building a web site the will eventually house a record of every trick, effect, slight, book, DVD, magazine I own, all cross referenced and clickable. It will include my own transcriptions and notes of every book I own. I think eventually, this will be an amazing resource for me. It takes time to do that, but the value to me is inestimable.

Now let's look at the the drip drip drip of time. They say it takes 10,000 hours of diligent practice to become a master at something.

Let's imagine you have 2 hours a day to devote to magic. You sleep 8 hours, you work 8 hours, you have a personal life and if you can scrape together two solid hours of magic time in a day, I'd say you are doing pretty good.

Now let's look at the time taken up posting on this forum. I'll use your posts as an example but again, nothing against you, just to illustrate how much time it takes up.

Let's be generous and say each post represents 10 minutes: you have to logon, read the other posts, respond, maybe check out some books for sale, etc. But each post represents on average 10 minutes of your day. Let's do some rounding to make the math easier and for arguement sake lets say you posted 600 posts in a 3 month period. At 10 minutes a post, that is 6,000 minutes posting. Divide by 60 minutes and that is 100 hours of time taken up posting. At 2 hours a day, that is 50 days of your available 90 days over the last 3 months that are taken up with posting, or more than half your available magic hours are devoted to things like arguing if there should be a pledge or not and what that means, and responding to all the people who say that is foolish and all the people who think that people who say it is foolish, are foolish.

What could you do with that 50 days. Do you think that if you spent 50 out of 90 days prefecting your pass that that would be a good thing? how many great tricks do you think you could learn in that 50 days that instead you spent here?

Time drips drips drips away. and before you know it, they are nailing the coffin lid down and you still never created your OWN Triump, your own miracle. In the course of year those 50 days become 200 days. 200 days wasted out of a year posting innocuous things on this forum that could be spent building a routine, and act, a career.... a life.

And let me ask you, do you think Marlo, Vernon, anyone who you admire would be where they got to by wasting 200 days out of the year posting on magic forums?
Message: Posted by: FrenchDrop (Jan 22, 2012 09:47PM)
What can I say that I haven't already said, Bill? I don't believe it's for me to say what another magician's goals should be, let alone whether or not he's working with sufficient diligence toward those goals. I think it's okay if some magicians aren't trying to create the next Triumph. I think it's okay if some magicians don't aspire to be the next Marlo or Vernon. I think it's okay if some magicians merely want to learn a few great card tricks and do them really well for friends and family. I think magic as an art has room for magicians like that. And I think magic as a [b]community[/b] needs people who treasure the social experience of discussing the art with other magicians.

And -- again -- I have no idea how much time anyone spends on practicing, reading, performing, etc. when he's not here on the Café. And -- regardless of how much speculative math you do -- neither do you.

That's none of my business. Neither is another magician's goals. (These things aren't your business, either, in my opinion -- but since I suggested you speak for yourself, I'll try and do the same. :D)

This discussion seems to have evolved into a debate over whether or not discussion boards are a waste of time...which is a surreal debate to have via a discussion board. And I believe we're heading into a realm of diminishing returns, where we're just restating our positions in new ways with no hope of changing the other party's mind -- which really is a waste of time. I will say this: I strongly disagree with the practice of applying your own standards to a huge group of strangers with differing degrees of experience and widely varying goals.
Message: Posted by: Steven Youell (Jan 22, 2012 09:50PM)
Well since this is now a different subject, I think it's safe to comment. ;)

Bill,

Although I really do get your point, your logic in this post is a little flawed. Your entire argument is based on this premise:

[quote]
On 2012-01-22 22:03, BillMcCloskey wrote:
They say it takes 10,000 hours of diligent practice to become a master at something.[/quote]
Who is "they"? What hard evidence is there to support this?

In face, if you practiced two hours a day, 365 days a year, it would take you over 150 years to master 12 Sleights:

(12*10000)= 120000 <number of hours to master 12 Sleights>
(2*365) = 730 hours of practice a year.
(120000/730) = 164 years.

Of course, if you practiced 8 hours a day, then you could master those 12 Sleights in about 40 years.

So I'm thinking that your premise is flawed. Or else no one really "masters" anything...

But you ARE right in that we all need to set priorities and then we need to take responsibility for our priorities.

While you may consider spending an inordinate amount of time posting here wasted hours, some don't. While you and I would consider spending time learning to deal perfect seconds, most humans would see that as a tremendous waste of time. So I don't necessarily think making posts here is a waste of time for everyone. But everyone should be aware of HOW they spend their time.

I regret having started this thread. Really. I did not have the foresight to see that it would result in exactly what I was trying to quell.

SEY
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Jan 22, 2012 09:56PM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-20 13:08, FrenchDrop wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-01-20 04:12, tomsk192 wrote:
I understand Steven's motivation, and support it. However, [b]those acting as his Gestapo[b] really are the limit.
[/quote]
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law]Godwin's law[/url].

[i]Godwin observed that, given enough time, in any online discussion—regardless of topic or scope—someone inevitably criticizes some point made in the discussion by comparing it to beliefs held by Hitler and the Nazis.[/i]

[i]There are many corollaries to Godwin's law, some considered more canonical (by being adopted by Godwin himself) than others. For example, there is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever debate was in progress.[/i]
[/quote]

Ah yes, Godwin's law. Of course if 'Stasi' or 'KGB' or 'MI5' or even 'CIA' were substituted, then Godwin's law would not apply. It makes perfect sense. Validated with one metaphor, mindless with another. Godwin's law. Philosophy for the Wiki generation.
Message: Posted by: Slide (Jan 22, 2012 10:01PM)
Steven,

The 10,000 hour rule was based on a book by Malcom Gladwell. Personlly I don't buy any of Malcom's theory's but it is a widely accepted and you can read his ideas on this in his latest book (but your are right: I find flaws with his theory).

The 10,000 hour rule is based on the time it takes to master a subject, not a part of the subject. So to be a master at magic, one would spend 10,000 hours on it (not on each sleight). Therefore, practing 2 hours a day, it should take you 13 year to be a master at magic. If however you send 200 days of those 2 hours posting on an online forum it will now take you 30 years to be a master at magic, not 13.

Blame Gladwell, not me. :)
Message: Posted by: FrenchDrop (Jan 22, 2012 10:01PM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-22 22:56, tomsk192 wrote:
Ah yes, Godwin's law. Of course if 'Stasi' or 'KGB' or 'MI5' or even 'CIA' were substituted, then Godwin's law would not apply.
[/quote]
No, I think they'd still fit the spirit of the Law, if not the letter. ;)

I think Godwin's Law is really about the tendency toward absurd hyperbole in debates that go on long enough -- and the way such hyperbole tends to undermine the argument it was meant to bolster. (Hence the corollary that says, when the Nazis appear, the debate is over and whoever invoked the Nazis has lost.)
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Jan 22, 2012 10:15PM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-22 23:01, FrenchDrop wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-01-22 22:56, tomsk192 wrote:
Ah yes, Godwin's law. Of course if 'Stasi' or 'KGB' or 'MI5' or even 'CIA' were substituted, then Godwin's law would not apply.
[/quote]
No, I think they'd still fit the spirit of the Law, if not the letter. ;)
[/quote]

I'm not sure I'd lump them all in together. Each to their own.
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Jan 22, 2012 10:17PM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-22 23:01, FrenchDrop wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-01-22 22:56, tomsk192 wrote:
Ah yes, Godwin's law. Of course if 'Stasi' or 'KGB' or 'MI5' or even 'CIA' were substituted, then Godwin's law would not apply.
[/quote]
No, I think they'd still fit the spirit of the Law, if not the letter. ;)

I think Godwin's Law is really about the tendency toward absurd hyperbole in debates that go on long enough -- and the way such hyperbole tends to undermine the argument it was meant to bolster. (Hence the corollary that says, when the Nazis appear, the debate is over and whoever invoked the Nazis has lost.)
[/quote]

But it's facile. Tosh.
Message: Posted by: FrenchDrop (Jan 22, 2012 10:19PM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-22 23:01, BillMcCloskey wrote:
Steven,

The 10,000 hour rule was based on a book by Malcom Gladwell. Personlly I don't buy any of Malcom's theory's but it is a widely accepted and you can read his ideas on this in his latest book (but your are right: I find flaws with his theory).

The 10,000 hour rule is based on the time it takes to master a subject, not a part of the subject. So to be a master at magic, one would spend 10,000 hours on it (not on each sleight). Therefore, practing 2 hours a day, it should take you 13 year to be a master at magic. If however you send 200 days of those 2 hours posting on an online forum it will now take you 30 years to be a master at magic, not 13.

Blame Gladwell, not me. :)
[/quote]
The problem with your argument is that it's based on your completely arbitrary notion that everyone only has two hours of free time a day to spend on any given pursuit -- and it's based on a 10,000-hour figure from a guy whose theories you yourself say you don't buy at all.

Honestly, I can't help thinking you could find better ways to spend your time than to doggedly defend a position based on theory you disagree with....
Message: Posted by: FrenchDrop (Jan 22, 2012 10:20PM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-22 23:17, tomsk192 wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-01-22 23:01, FrenchDrop wrote:
No, I think they'd still fit the spirit of the Law, if not the letter. ;)

I think Godwin's Law is really about the tendency toward absurd hyperbole in debates that go on long enough -- and the way such hyperbole tends to undermine the argument it was meant to bolster. (Hence the corollary that says, when the Nazis appear, the debate is over and whoever invoked the Nazis has lost.)
[/quote]

But it's facile. Tosh.
[/quote]
I disagree. I think there's a lot of simple truth behind it, as outlined above.
Message: Posted by: Steven Youell (Jan 22, 2012 10:28PM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-22 23:01, BillMcCloskey wrote:
The 10,000 hour rule was based on a book by Malcom Gladwell. Personally I don't buy any of Malcom's theory's but it is a widely accepted and you can read his ideas on this in his latest book...[/quote]
Spontaneous Generation was once widely accepted too. Widely accepted does not mean it's true. Did Malcom have any scientific evidence to back up his theory?

[quote]
On 2012-01-22 23:01, BillMcCloskey wrote:
The 10,000 hour rule is based on the time it takes to master a subject, not a part of the subject.[/quote]
I am not impressed with Malcom's thinking ability. So he studied ALL subjects? Magic, Medicine, Physics? ANY of them can be mastered within 10,000 hours? I find it difficult to believe that one can become a Board Certified Brain Surgeon in 10,000 hours.

How did Malcom define "Master"? Surely he went through every subject on earth and discovered the most amazing fact ever: it takes just as much time to master Brain Surgery as it does to become a Card Trick Master.

[quote]
On 2012-01-22 23:01, BillMcCloskey wrote:
So to be a master at magic, one would spend 10,000 hours on it (not on each sleight). Therefore, practicing 2 hours a day, it should take you 13 year to be a master at magic.[/quote]
Bill-- you and I both know that's B.S. We've both known guys who have practiced a few hours a day for 25 years and STILL suck...! ;)

SEY
Message: Posted by: The Amazing Mr. H (Jan 22, 2012 11:31PM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-22 22:03, BillMcCloskey wrote:
French,

Let me illustrate what I mean. I've spent the last few hours building a web site the will eventually house a record of every trick, effect, slight, book, DVD, magazine I own, all cross referenced and clickable. It will include my own transcriptions and notes of every book I own. I think eventually, this will be an amazing resource for me. It takes time to do that, but the value to me is inestimable.

Now let's look at the the drip drip drip of time. They say it takes 10,000 hours of diligent practice to become a master at something.

Let's imagine you have 2 hours a day to devote to magic. You sleep 8 hours, you work 8 hours, you have a personal life and if you can scrape together two solid hours of magic time in a day, I'd say you are doing pretty good.

Now let's look at the time taken up posting on this forum. I'll use your posts as an example but again, nothing against you, just to illustrate how much time it takes up.

Let's be generous and say each post represents 10 minutes: you have to logon, read the other posts, respond, maybe check out some books for sale, etc. But each post represents on average 10 minutes of your day. Let's do some rounding to make the math easier and for arguement sake lets say you posted 600 posts in a 3 month period. At 10 minutes a post, that is 6,000 minutes posting. Divide by 60 minutes and that is 100 hours of time taken up posting. At 2 hours a day, that is 50 days of your available 90 days over the last 3 months that are taken up with posting, or more than half your available magic hours are devoted to things like arguing if there should be a pledge or not and what that means, and responding to all the people who say that is foolish and all the people who think that people who say it is foolish, are foolish.

What could you do with that 50 days. Do you think that if you spent 50 out of 90 days prefecting your pass that that would be a good thing? how many great tricks do you think you could learn in that 50 days that instead you spent here?

Time drips drips drips away. and before you know it, they are nailing the coffin lid down and you still never created your OWN Triump, your own miracle. In the course of year those 50 days become 200 days. 200 days wasted out of a year posting innocuous things on this forum that could be spent building a routine, and act, a career.... a life.

And let me ask you, do you think Marlo, Vernon, anyone who you admire would be where they got to by wasting 200 days out of the year posting on magic forums?
[/quote]

I'm lost.
Message: Posted by: Merc Man (Jan 23, 2012 03:45AM)
Blimey - all these breakdowns of time spent; now I'm beginning to lose the plot a bit!

Seriously though, do I consider the Café a waste of time? Nope - not at all. Reading it, learning from it and, where possible helping others is, in my view, time well spent.

So what do/did I consider a waste of time?
- a two hour drive to & from work; sitting aimlessly in traffic as my life ticked away.
- giving 9 hours a day to an employer that after 31 years of my loyal service, no longer gave a *** about its employees or its customers
- reading newspapers
- watching television that, in the UK, is obsessed with so-called celebrity dross
- paying disgusting amounts of income tax and VAT to a succession of incompetent governments.

So I took the pretty decent redundancy pay-off from my employer and left the rat race last Summer to turn full-time pro. And the benefits so far?
- Absolutely no stress as I no longer have to take orders from incompetent senior management; nor work hours they aren't prepared to pay me for
- I work when I want, for whom I want as I'm now my own master
- I no longer HAVE to get up at 4.30am Mon-Sat
- the only time I now get suited and booted is for shows - I can just slum around all week in jeans totally chilled
- when I do work, I now get complete job satisfaction by doing something that I adore and putting a smile on people's faces at the same time
- I spend loads more quality time with my family
- nothing whatsoever in my life has deadlines any more
- I've cut down from 40+ cigs a day to around 12
- I have loads more free time - and spend this on helping the community via the local church, swimming, tinkering around with old Mercs, etc.
- I don't have to answer to ANYONE; my life has more or less complete freedom
- yep, I may still live within the rat race but I do as much as possible NOT to be part of it nor contribute towards it. If my Wife would see sense, we'd actually be living in a Mercedes Motorhome full-time and just travelling around Europe; wild camping on beaches in the sun. Watch this space!

Most of all, I have more free time to commit to magic........and that can't be a bad thing - can it! ;)
Message: Posted by: Roger Kelly (Jan 23, 2012 03:56AM)
Bal, your finger stuck on the 'return' button mate?

Go and treat yersen to a new pooter with that redundancy pay-out.

I've now joined you as a Gentleman of Leisure and concur 100% with the above!
Message: Posted by: FrenchDrop (Jan 23, 2012 04:23AM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-23 04:45, Merc Man wrote:
- I've cut down from 40+ cigs a day to around 12
[/quote]
Keep going!

(I know that's not the biggest accomplishment in your list, but it's the one that most hit home for me. Well...that and the idea of living a nomad's life in an RV -- I mean caravan! :D)
Message: Posted by: FrenchDrop (Jan 23, 2012 04:25AM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-23 04:56, Roger Kelly wrote:
Bal, your finger stuck on the 'return' button mate?

Go and treat yersen to a new pooter with that redundancy pay-out.[/quote]
"Have you tried turning it off and back on again?"
Message: Posted by: Roger Kelly (Jan 23, 2012 04:56AM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-23 05:25, FrenchDrop wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-01-23 04:56, Roger Kelly wrote:
Bal, your finger stuck on the 'return' button mate?

Go and treat yersen to a new pooter with that redundancy pay-out.[/quote]
"Have you tried turning it off and back on again?"
[/quote]

Don't confuse the ol' boy! One thing at a time. :rotf:

Seriously though - I agree, knocking the fags on the head (oops, sorry American brothers - cigarettes!) was quite an achievement. Five years without one now.

And a fag, come to think of it!
Message: Posted by: Merc Man (Jan 23, 2012 05:04AM)
Thanks for the advice chaps but its not the pooters fault - that's packed and ready for the house move - which should have been tomorrow; but I won't bore you with the abysmally incompetent solicitor tales of woe!

I'm therfore having to use my mobile phone in the interim, which is touchscreen. Unfortunately, these are designed for people with fingertips the thickness of a match. :(
Message: Posted by: Merc Man (Jan 23, 2012 05:04AM)
Thanks for the advice chaps but its not the pooters fault - that's packed and ready for the house move - which should have been tomorrow; but I won't bore you with the abysmally incompetent solicitor tales of woe!

I'm therfore having to use my mobile phone in the interim, which is touchscreen. Unfortunately, these are designed for people with fingertips the thickness of a match. :(
Message: Posted by: Merc Man (Jan 23, 2012 05:05AM)
See what I mean!
Message: Posted by: Merc Man (Jan 23, 2012 05:33AM)
You are right about the cigs FD - I now just have one on the hour mark - and if I forget, then I simply forfeit it. Don't know if I will ever give them up totally as I really enjoy a smoke but to go from 2 packs a day to around half a packet was really easy if I'm honest.
Message: Posted by: ThatsJustWrong! (Jan 23, 2012 08:23AM)
I was totally cool with this message thread until it turned into math. I don't have enough fingers and toes to count to 10,000 hours or divide by zero to determine how many hours to split between practicing magic and downloading Japanese tentacle porn. What I DO understand and appreciate is the discussion of balancing Income with Quality of Life. I'm big on establishing values-based goals and re-evaluate those frequently. You can't set SMART goals without doing a little soul searching to identify what really matters to you. I was Deputy Director of IT for the Red Cross in NYC when 9/11 occurred. I made it home twice in the first three weeks; even before that, my commute was 5.5-6 hours a day. After things settled down, I took a job at half the salary thirty minutes (with traffic!) from my home and I got five hours a day of my life back with a lot less stress - Totally worth it. I made up for some of the extra cash doing things I wanted to do (magic, directing, etc) and STILL had time left over for magic (and porn). Kudos to you who did that too!
Message: Posted by: Roger Kelly (Jan 23, 2012 09:40AM)
Nice story Joe. 6 hours commute - jeesh! And I thought commuting into London was bad!
Message: Posted by: ThatsJustWrong! (Jan 24, 2012 12:18PM)
Thanks, Roger. I'm back working in NYC again and my commute now is three hours a day again but I have a good arrangement worked out with my understanding wife. When I was in rehearsals or a run of a show, I was catching the 11:12pm train home, arriving home after 1am, and getting on a 6:00 am train back to the city the next day. Now I have a place in NYC where I stay during the week and head home to see my wife and dogs on Friday when I don't have shows running. Again, a much more civilized Quality of Life and less arguing over the TV remote; after 23 years of marriage, she can deal with less of me ;)
Message: Posted by: huggie50 (Jan 24, 2012 12:48PM)
I'm in!
Message: Posted by: kcg5 (Jan 24, 2012 03:27PM)
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/2011/06/06/too-hard-for-science-seeing-if-10000-hours-make-you-an-expert/

More on 10,000 hours and testing the theory, which Gladwell made "famous" but did not invent.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Jan 24, 2012 09:20PM)
[quote]Just a question - where did the term 'fag' come from in the U.S. when referring to gay blokes? I haven't a clue why us Brits nickname cigs as fags but them term has been a slang word for donkeys years (whatever donkeys years are)!
[/quote]
Several theories here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faggot_%28slang%29
Message: Posted by: billmarq (Jan 25, 2012 01:06AM)
Let's start a new pledge - "I shall practice magic for at least two hours every day before posting anything on the Café."
Message: Posted by: FrenchDrop (Jan 25, 2012 01:14AM)
I vow that I will never spend any more time reading and posting on the Café than I feel like spending. :D
Message: Posted by: maxpax (Jan 26, 2012 05:05AM)
I can agree to that!
Message: Posted by: JR Russell (Feb 7, 2012 09:57PM)
I like this pledge AND billmarq's pledge!...I'll do both!
Message: Posted by: Andrew Zuber (Feb 7, 2012 10:42PM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-25 02:06, billmarq wrote:
Let's start a new pledge - "I shall practice magic for at least two hours every day before posting anything on the Café."
[/quote]
Does this mean two hours of practice before each individual post? If so I'm in trouble
Message: Posted by: FrenchDrop (Feb 7, 2012 11:14PM)
And is it retroactive?
Message: Posted by: billmarq (Feb 10, 2012 03:10AM)
I know that you realize my previous post was in jest, but here I am sitting in bed, browsing the Café and practicing Charlier cuts in my left hand at the same time. I believe there is enough room in my life for both practice and the Café.

It is funny how the same sorts of people appear on different boards. I am part of a screenwriters board where periodically some well-intentioned person will show up to tell us all that we should be writing and not posting.
Message: Posted by: Merc Man (Feb 10, 2012 08:11AM)
[quote]
On 2012-02-10 04:10, billmarq wrote:
I know that you realize my previous post was in jest, but here I am sitting in bed, browsing the Café and practicing Charlier cuts in my left hand at the same time.
[/quote]
Makes a change from most blokes I spose! ;)
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Feb 10, 2012 08:57AM)
I always use the left for Charlier cuts...
Message: Posted by: billmarq (Feb 10, 2012 10:26AM)
I could never do a Charlier when younger so I never used it. I was recently reading a book in which the author had written, "I presume you can do a Charlier Pass..." as part of the instructions on how to perform one of his card miracles. (Yes, THAT guy.) I felt incompetent and decided to finally learn. It isn't difficult so either my hands are a bit larger now or I simply developed the proper technique.

None of this has anything to do with making pledges, but I am in a mood to gab.
Message: Posted by: FrenchDrop (Feb 10, 2012 01:19PM)
I learned to do a Charlier cut when I was pretty small...with a half-sized deck of Snoopy cards. I felt like I needed to be able to do it, because my cousin Sally could do one, and she wasn't even a magician. :lol:

It was only years later that I learned it was called a Charlier cut.
Message: Posted by: Merc Man (Feb 10, 2012 03:46PM)
Or for anyone that studies Erdnase - The 'Charlie's' Cut (one of only about six errors in the entire book; not bad for the year it was written).
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Feb 10, 2012 08:30PM)
The totally useless thing I regularly practice is the one handed faro, for which the Charlie's cut (!) was the springboard.

I like the picture of Michael Skinner executing it perfectly, whilst saying, "Evidence of a misspent youth."

Lovely. But sad too. Hey, that's theatre.
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Feb 10, 2012 08:32PM)
(thanks, Billmarq, for turning the thread hither.)
Message: Posted by: FrenchDrop (Feb 10, 2012 09:46PM)
Does a perfect, one-handed faro fall under the heading of Showing Skill? :P
Message: Posted by: Steven Youell (Feb 12, 2012 04:33PM)
OK now I just want to see if we can get the thread to 15,000 hits.
I was shocked when we passed 10,000

SEY
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Feb 12, 2012 05:02PM)
[quote]
On 2012-02-10 22:46, FrenchDrop wrote:
Does a perfect, one-handed faro fall under the heading of Showing Skill? :P
[/quote]

I would say....... yes. Indupitably, it does. As long as when 'the heat is on' you show *nothing*, then the odd bit of grace can be rather attractive to the audience.

*cue theme to "Different Strokes"*
Message: Posted by: Lundonia (Feb 14, 2012 07:28PM)
I'm in!
Message: Posted by: Robynhood (Mar 19, 2012 10:47PM)
I'm in.
Message: Posted by: Cain (Mar 20, 2012 12:35AM)
Masters of your domain, how do you sleep at night?
Message: Posted by: Tim Roesch (Dec 18, 2012 12:57AM)
I'm in!
Message: Posted by: Bicycle Rider (Dec 18, 2012 03:41AM)
Me too!
Message: Posted by: Roger Kelly (Dec 18, 2012 04:36AM)
There's far too many nice people joining the Café for my liking!

What's happens to all that flaming back stabbing that we have grown to love?

Seasons greetings to one and all. Especially those on the west side of the pond. You've had more than your fair share of crap recently! But on a brighter note, I'm still remembering my holiday in CA earlier this year. :) (oops - vacation!)
Message: Posted by: mtgoldstein (Dec 27, 2012 09:26AM)
All In
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Dec 27, 2012 12:48PM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-20 15:49, Steven Youell wrote:
Name calling, sniping, trolling, personal attacks, grudges, vitriol, vindictiveness and even the age old "he started it" nonsense have all ruined this valuable resource.

So since I've had a history of some of this stuff (albeit a long time ago), I've decided to ask people to take a pledge promising to not engage is this nonsense. If you want to make the pledge, then simply reply and say "I'm In!" Here is the pledge:

1) I will not engage in arguments over credits in this section. I will instead, address the issues in other sections that are designed for these discussions.

2) I will not call names or make personal attacks.

3) I will only make [b]constructive[/b] criticism. In other words, any criticism I offer will be designed to help make someone's magic better. I will always try to offer a solution if I can.

4) If someone treats me badly or irritates me, I will take the high road and leave them alone. Neither will I post comments that are designed to antagonize them.

5) I will not post in thread that have degraded into arguments or flame wars. I will let the thread die and go into the obscurity where it belongs. I will also totally ignore the participants in those childish arguments.

6) I will think for at least ten minutes before I hit the "submit" button in order to make sure I've followed this pledge. I will also take this time to make sure I have not misunderstood someone's post and to make sure my post can not be interpreted as breaking this pledge.

Now I know that even if the majority of us follow these points it won't end this nonsense. But it sure would reduce it.

It'll be interesting to see how many of those involved in the more recent schoolyard brawls agree to follow the pledge. I predict none of them will since it's obviously "winning" is more important to them than magic, other people and yes, even their own reputations.

Let's see what happens.

SEY
[/quote]

After this recent Presidential election, if you could only get the Republicans and Dems to buy in to this, that would be some real good magic for the country. :)
Message: Posted by: slowdini (Dec 28, 2012 08:30AM)
Maybe we should have a 'boxing ring' forum where when an argument errupts, the chiuauas can bannish themselves to the ring and brash it out without screwing up the main thread.
Message: Posted by: billmarq (Dec 28, 2012 10:20AM)
[quote]
On 2012-12-28 09:30, slowdini wrote:
Maybe we should have a 'boxing ring' forum where when an argument errupts, the chiuauas can bannish themselves to the ring and brash it out without screwing up the main thread.
[/quote]

We actually tried this idea on non-magic message board where I am an administrator. We called it "One on One." It didn't work. The forum turned into a slush box for any off topic discussions and for a long while was the most popular forum although it rarely had anything to do with the board's purpose. The arguing and name calling got so bad we had to limit access to the forum. People are strange.
Message: Posted by: slowdini (Dec 28, 2012 04:08PM)
That's interesting Bill. Initially I was thinking in terms of it being a forum to be ignored by those not interested in bikering. Anywhoo.. Not to change the subject but I just received a nifty set of Walton books that need some braking in so have a wonderful day ya'll.
Message: Posted by: Zack_Johnston (Apr 13, 2014 05:50PM)
I'm in. :)
Message: Posted by: Ricardo Delgado (Apr 13, 2014 07:13PM)
I'm in :)
Message: Posted by: Muddy Dench (Apr 13, 2014 09:51PM)
Yawn. The OP violated this within days of posting it.

I find it strange that someone has to post rules to govern others' behavior when they can't govern their own. Decent people act decently. They don't need rules imposed upon them. Much more important than these "I will ... I will not ... silly statements, is making good on commitments after one has taken others' money. Still haven't seen Keys to the Kingdom, have you?
Message: Posted by: MRSharpe (Apr 14, 2014 02:29PM)
I'm in.
Message: Posted by: magicwatcher2005 (Apr 14, 2014 02:52PM)
[quote]On Apr 13, 2014, Muddy Dench wrote:
Yawn. The OP violated this within days of posting it.

I find it strange that someone has to post rules to govern others' behavior when they can't govern their own. Decent people act decently. They don't need rules imposed upon them. Much more important than these "I will ... I will not ... silly statements, is making good on commitments after one has taken others' money. Still haven't seen Keys to the Kingdom, have you? [/quote]

+1

OP has a long history of being one of the very worst offenders.
Message: Posted by: billmarq (Apr 14, 2014 05:10PM)
Mr. Youell has a bona fide, proven, mental disorder. He did some inappropriate things because of it. This may not make one feel better about him or the loss of money for an undelivered product, but perhaps he is entitled to a bit of sympathy. I truly hope he makes good on his commitments.
Message: Posted by: magicwatcher2005 (Apr 14, 2014 11:07PM)
[quote]On Apr 14, 2014, billmarq wrote:
Mr. Youell has a bona fide, proven, mental disorder. He did some inappropriate things because of it. This may not make one feel better about him or the loss of money for an undelivered product, but perhaps he is entitled to a bit of sympathy. [/quote]

I don't agree... with the sympathy part. His moods would appear to controllable with medication (or some other method), but he has periodically gone off the deep end SO many times he's definitely dried up all the sympathy most people can muster.

I read him claim earlier in this thread that he knows of six well-known pros who won't come on the Café because of the bickering that he seems to think he can separate himself from. Maybe... Maybe not. But I know several dedicated magic enthusiasts who no longer post here solely because they've fallen under one or more of HIS personal attacks. Not the "bickering" as a whole, but simply the relentless craziness that is Steve Youell.

.
Message: Posted by: PeterSteele111 (Apr 15, 2014 11:59AM)
Im in
Message: Posted by: R.E. Byrnes (Apr 15, 2014 12:08PM)
This seems more like a disingenuous gambit to leave the OP as the only one using these tactics.
Message: Posted by: Muddy Dench (Apr 16, 2014 09:36PM)
[quote]On Apr 15, 2014, R.E. Byrnes wrote:
This seems more like a disingenuous gambit to leave the OP as the only one using these tactics. [/quote]

Yes, would have to agree.
Message: Posted by: inigmntoya (Apr 17, 2014 06:04PM)
[quote]On Apr 15, 2014, magicwatcher2005 wrote:
I don't agree... with the sympathy part. His moods would appear to controllable with medication (or some other method), but he has periodically gone off the deep end SO many times he's definitely dried up all the sympathy most people can muster.
[/quote]

From someone who has lived with one struggling with mental illness, THAT is the nature of the beast.

It comes, it goes, it's managed well for a time, and then not. I don't fault you for not understanding -- it's difficult to grasp until you've seen/lived it.

That said, for those that do understand, your comments are a bit like not having sympathy for someone whose cancer goes into remission a number of times but keeps coming back.
Message: Posted by: magicwatcher2005 (Apr 18, 2014 11:29AM)
[quote]On Apr 17, 2014, inigmntoya wrote:

From someone who has lived with one struggling with mental illness, THAT is the nature of the beast.

It comes, it goes, it's managed well for a time, and then not. I don't fault you for not understanding -- it's difficult to grasp until you've seen/lived it.

That said, for those that do understand, your comments are a bit like not having sympathy for someone whose cancer goes into remission a number of times but keeps coming back. [/quote]

Thank you for not "faulting" me - especially since, despite your pompous assumptions, I DO understand. I understand the struggle for someone who has "loved ones" struggling with mental illness. What YOU don't understand is that for most of us Steve Youell is absolutely NOT a "loved one". So why should we be forced to suffer through HIS ups and downs? He should have been given the permanent boot YEARS ago - and I can only imagine that someone in a position of power here is either too close to him or too afraid of him to take that logical step.

.
Message: Posted by: Muddy Dench (Apr 18, 2014 12:32PM)
[quote]On Apr 17, 2014, inigmntoya wrote:
...your comments are a bit like not having sympathy for someone whose cancer goes into remission a number of times but keeps coming back. [/quote]

That's really an inept analogy and misses the point.

No one would wish mental illness on anyone, and I certainly wish him a speedy and complete recovery. We all should be sympathetic in that regard.

There are also actions that have been taken that have involved promises, money, and unmet obligations. This has occurred not just once, but several times. And, even though obligations remain unfulfilled, posting on magic forums continues unabated. You advocate sympathy for that, but that just sends the wrong message and encourages repetition of bad behavior.
Message: Posted by: inigmntoya (Apr 18, 2014 01:45PM)
[quote]On Apr 18, 2014, Muddy Dench wrote:
[quote]On Apr 17, 2014, inigmntoya wrote:
...your comments are a bit like not having sympathy for someone whose cancer goes into remission a number of times but keeps coming back. [/quote]

That's really an inept analogy and misses the point.

No one would wish mental illness on anyone, and I certainly wish him a speedy and complete recovery. We all should be sympathetic in that regard.

There are also actions that have been taken that have involved promises, money, and unmet obligations. This has occurred not just once, but several times. And, even though obligations remain unfulfilled, posting on magic forums continues unabated. You advocate sympathy for that, but that just sends the wrong message and encourages repetition of bad behavior. [/quote]

Exactly how is my analogy inept, unless you're saying that a relapse in mental illness is the patient's fault and thus not deserving compassion?

You're reading into what I said. I said nothing about excusing or encouraging any kind of behavior. I was addressing the lack of sympathy towards one dealing with mental illness, as if it was their fault and they could control it if they "really wanted to."
Message: Posted by: inigmntoya (Apr 18, 2014 02:16PM)
[quote]On Apr 18, 2014, magicwatcher2005 wrote:
Thank you for not "faulting" me - especially since, despite your pompous assumptions, I DO understand.
[/quote]

There were no assumptions, pompous or otherwise. I was responding to what you wrote:

[quote]"His moods would appear to controllable with medication (or some other method), but he has periodically gone off the deep end SO many times he's definitely dried up all the sympathy most people can muster. " [/quote]

That statement says you believe his moods are under his control, or should be. From that it's a deduction, not assumption that you don't understand, or misunderstand the nature of the illness.

[quote] I understand the struggle for someone who has "loved ones" struggling with mental illness. What YOU don't understand is that for most of us Steve Youell is absolutely NOT a "loved one".
[/quote]

I fail to see how "loved ones" have anything to do with this.

[quote]
So why should we be forced to suffer through HIS ups and downs?
[/quote]

No one said you had to.
Message: Posted by: Dooby Scoo (Apr 19, 2014 11:00PM)
It sounds to me like Steve just had some unfortunate financial difficulty that made it impossible to release a product. It sucks, but stuff happens. More importantly, what does any of that have to do with this thread, though? I think that the pledge is a great idea and should reduce a lot of the sort of flamewars you see on here from time to time.
Message: Posted by: Muddy Dench (Apr 20, 2014 11:25AM)
[quote]On Apr 20, 2014, Dooby Scoo wrote:
It sounds to me like Steve just had some unfortunate financial difficulty that made it impossible to release a product. It sucks, but stuff happens.... [/quote]

Since money was collected in advance, that wouldn't be the reason.
Message: Posted by: Dooby Scoo (Apr 20, 2014 11:42AM)
Maybe he didn't get enough money to complete the project? Maybe some complications came up that we don't know about?
Message: Posted by: Muddy Dench (Apr 20, 2014 01:16PM)
[quote]On Apr 20, 2014, Dooby Scoo wrote:
Maybe he didn't get enough money to complete the project? Maybe some complications came up that we don't know about? [/quote]

That was never voiced. In fact, just the opposite -- he made it clear he was nearly finished. He just kept pushing due dates out into the future all the while merrily posting away on card magic. This has happened on other projects of his. It's a pattern, it's not circumstantial.
Message: Posted by: Dooby Scoo (Apr 20, 2014 01:53PM)
Well, I don't know about any of that, truthfully. Others have said that he suffered from some sort of affliction and perhaps that was the cause behind it. Including the delays and missed deadlines and whatnot. I don't know. I'm not a doctor. I don't even play one on TV! But really, what about what I asked before, though, which is this: "More importantly, what does any of that have to do with this thread, though? I think that the pledge is a great idea and should reduce a lot of the sort of flamewars you see on here from time to time."
Message: Posted by: R.E. Byrnes (Apr 21, 2014 01:51AM)
Unless his mental illness renders him unable to simply decide not to post here, he's as accountable as anyone else for posts that are so often antagonistic and petty.
Message: Posted by: Dooby Scoo (Apr 21, 2014 03:48AM)
All I can say is that from reading what he wrote here and in other discussions I have searched, his heart was in the right place. I'm glad if this thread is getting Likes. He deserves it.
Message: Posted by: paisa23 (Apr 21, 2014 05:45AM)
IM home.
Message: Posted by: Muddy Dench (Apr 21, 2014 05:56AM)
[quote]On Apr 21, 2014, Dooby Scoo wrote:
All I can say is that from reading what he wrote here and in other discussions I have searched, his heart was in the right place. I'm glad if this thread is getting Likes. He deserves it. [/quote]

That is because what you are able to see is a sanitized version of his posts. All the antagonistic and negative posts have been deleted.
Message: Posted by: Dooby Scoo (Apr 21, 2014 06:55AM)
Well, that's convenient. We have to take your word for it? Doesn't it stand to logic that if he's such an awful person that there would be some sort of place to see the truth of it? And if there's no place to see the truth of it, maybe, just maybe, he's not such an awful person?

I am not very impressed with the way VIPs get treated around here. I think he's getting some bad treatment here because he got banned for a completely different reason. If good guys like Vlad, Mr. Michael Vincent (yes, I checked), Mr. Darwin Ortiz (yes, I checked), Mr. Whit Hayden (yes, I checked) and others have nice things to say about him, how does that stack up against some anonymous posters who have no proof? It stacks about as poorly as Si Stebbins aganst Mnemonica if you ask me. :)
Message: Posted by: Muddy Dench (Apr 21, 2014 07:46AM)
[quote]On Apr 21, 2014, Dooby Scoo wrote:
Well, that's convenient. We have to take your word for it? Doesn't it stand to logic that if he's such an awful person that there would be some sort of place to see the truth of it? And if there's no place to see the truth of it, maybe, just maybe, he's not such an awful person? ... [/quote]

No need to take my word for it. Go right to the source. The next time you talk with him ask him about Jerry Lukins.

BTW, I never said he was an "awful person."
Message: Posted by: Dooby Scoo (Apr 21, 2014 07:57AM)
I don't think that's how it works. We've got a discussion here with great idea, started by a VIP with a good intent, who has credentials from some of the best in the business! Unfortunately, we've also got some malcontents who want to bring up a history of illness and a business problem, two things that have nothing to do behind the soul of this discussion, and that's ok?

The responsibility for disproving what seems totally clear to everybody but a few isn't mine. If you've got something to say, it should be said plainly. I've done my research and I'm happy with what I have found. Should I put up the quotes with all the nice things said about him?
Message: Posted by: mlippo (Apr 22, 2014 02:05AM)
[quote]On Apr 21, 2014, Dooby Scoo wrote:
I don't think that's how it works. We've got a discussion here with great idea, started by a VIP with a good intent, who has credentials from some of the best in the business! Unfortunately, we've also got some malcontents who want to bring up a history of illness and a business problem, two things that have nothing to do behind the soul of this discussion, and that's ok?

The responsibility for disproving what seems totally clear to everybody but a few isn't mine. If you've got something to say, it should be said plainly. I've done my research and I'm happy with what I have found. Should I put up the quotes with all the nice things said about him? [/quote]

But it looks as if you haven' t realised that HE was one of the people who completely disattended his own words....

and +1 to the post above your latest. I was half scammed and treatex badly by him few years ago. It will never happen again.
Message: Posted by: Dooby Scoo (Apr 22, 2014 03:58AM)
[quote]On Apr 22, 2014, mlippo wrote:
[quote]On Apr 21, 2014, Dooby Scoo wrote:
I don't think that's how it works. We've got a discussion here with great idea, started by a VIP with a good intent, who has credentials from some of the best in the business! Unfortunately, we've also got some malcontents who want to bring up a history of illness and a business problem, two things that have nothing to do behind the soul of this discussion, and that's ok?

The responsibility for disproving what seems totally clear to everybody but a few isn't mine. If you've got something to say, it should be said plainly. I've done my research and I'm happy with what I have found. Should I put up the quotes with all the nice things said about him? [/quote]

But it looks as if you haven' t realised that HE was one of the people who completely disattended his own words....
[/quote]

I don't get this at all. Everybody gets into spats on the message boards. This is not a new thing! In my searches on this Magic Café I also saw some arguments he got into but they were your average spats. I don't see at all why he is being singled out as being worse than anybody! Where is the justification for that? All I read is secondhand evidence. Well ok! I found secondhand evidence that he was an amazing performer, great teacher and all-around excellent magician.

There is very little respect for VIPs it seems. People should learn to have respect for their betters.
Message: Posted by: Vlad_77 (Apr 22, 2014 06:59AM)
Hi all,

(WARNING: Long post, skip if you aren't interested).

I've followed the recent posts in this thread since it was resurrected this month after lying dormant for two years. I've been resisting commenting here as I am dealing with significant difficulties that may force me to sell off almost all of my magic except for Apocalypse and digital products just to make it back to America. But, I've been part of this community for a number of years and sometimes silence is not the best solution.

Now, I will preface all of this by stating that it's no secret to those who know me here that I do consider Steven Youell a gracious man and one hell of a teacher. I've had the privilege in the past of talking to Steven a number of times on Skype and found him to be frank and forthcoming on many subjects. And yes, anyone wishing to dredge up posts I made about Keys to the Kingdom will see that I gave what I saw of it very high praise. It really is an amazing idea and I was looking forward to it as much as anybody. Steven even offered me a free "alpha" build of the product but I refused. I want to buy it because I believe a creator deserve recompense for her/his hard work. True, I have been sent products to review and I have reviewed them objectively although the majority of the magic I have reviewed comes from my own library and my own purchases. I want to add as well that even though I know the method to Keys, I will not use it until or IF it is ever published out of respect for the creator.

I have had my share of mess ups here as well. Things here are NOT good. I came here two years ago and I foolish enough to believe certain promises that never came to fruition and as a result, I have begun to lose who I am and it's not a pretty thing. I suffer from PTSD because of an horrific childhood that I will not go into here except to say that every day of my first 18 years of life was literally a day to day exercise of finding new strategies and tactics to survive.

Right before I moved to this country, I had promised Doomo, Vinny Marini, and a few others that I would give them substantial feedback on products they hoped to release. Needless to say I was humbled and honored. And because of what I am dealing I failed to deliver on those promises and I regret it every day. I have apologized to these people and Vinny forgave me. As for the others, it is certainly their right to remain angry and I can only hope one day that I will be given a second chance. It's hard to regain trust in this little community; sins are easily remembered.

Now, having said all of that, I am not using either PTSD or my current situation as excuses. I was raised to fulfill promises and and I always had until I came here. So I understand the anger and/or indifference of those who have not accepted my apologies. They may feel ripped off and certainly they may feel that their trust was broken and that all I wanted to do was score some "swag" as one of them stated. That is not true but, I cannot change the mind of another. Rather, as a man I have to face up to my errors.

What does all of this have to do with Steven? A lot actually. Many of you are upset that Steven did not deliver this later project and a few of you have expressed hurt and anger about the failure to deliver on some earlier products. Now, I want to be clear about this: I still and always will consider Steven a friend and a wonderful mentor for lack of a better term yet I understand the anger. Clearly he did not fulfill on promises paid for. I am not close enough to Steven to know for instance why he suddenly vanished and again, the record is here about how others and I were and are genuinely concerned for Steven as a human being. Is he well? Is he getting the help he needs? I pray so and I suspect many others do as well. I cannot address the allegations of certain magicians who no longer came to the Café because of Steven's sometimes vitriolic posts as I am not privy to that information so to me it is hearsay and I find it problematic to crucify a man based upon "he said, she said" - not that I would want to crucify anyone anyhow!

Here IS what I know: When Steven demonstrated some of Keys, he was on fire to get it released. He was in the finishing stages of polishing and I still stand by my original assessment that Keys IS a product that many of you will love and use - it's a paradigm changer. Then, of a sudden, I and others lost contact with Steven. At first, I chalked this up to the propensity of some creators to go into hermit mode to polish the rough edges. I saw a bit later that his account here was wiped out. I have no idea whether he did left of his own accord or whether The Café powers nixed his account. His prolonged absence worried me and many others. I received many PMs from very well respect folks here who were also genuinely concerned for Steven and NOT because Keys wasn't released but rather for the more important and fundamental concern for Steven as a human being.

I still do not know how Steven is doing. We have not spoken since I believe 2012. I realize I am risking the anger of those of you who feel you were scammed by saying that I miss him. I also will state that it is my belief that it was never his intention to scam anybody. Like it or not, Steven earned the respect of many top card magicians and if there is one thing I have learned in my 20 plus years in this art is that respect is not given easily.

Others will point to the unfortunate incident between Steven and Andrew Musgrave that came to an unfortunate and horrible crescendo. Steven apologized profusely to all here publicly, to Andrew many times, and yet, after all of that, some people wanted blood regardless, and I am talking about people who popped on here who had nothing to do with that unfortunate event. Was Steven wrong in what he did? Yes. And he tried to address it but to little avail. I hope that he and Andrew will have begun to mend fences but really, only Andrew, Steven, and God knows.

Again I will reiterate that I DO understand that many feel cheated and I will add again that your feelings of anger are completely justified. You made a deal in good faith and you ended up on the dirty end of the proverbial stick. But, what sickens me are the few armchair psychologists who state that if Steven could post in this or that forum - there was a controversy that he was posting in Conjure Nation - that he should have owned up to what happened with Keys. I would agree in any normal circumstance but truly, Steven is dealing with an illness that does not go away. Yes it can be managed but the disorder he suffers is unpredictable and most importantly, is not something he chose as is the case with a smoker who contracts lung cancer. Though PTSD and bipolar disorder are not the same illness, I can tell you that PTSD is also manageable but even with medication which I take faithfully twice a day, there are times when panic attacks breakthrough and I am paralyzed. The best one can do is weather the storm and hope that it passes. Emotional disorders like PTSD and mental disorders like bipolar syndrome still are stigmatized in our so-called enlightened 21st century. I shudder to think that a mere 50-60 years ago, folks like Steven and I would have been sent to languish in state psychiatric hospitals.

Some here are proceeding from the false premise that Steven is not suffering an illness; that he is nothing more than a scam artist. Yet, even without getting into the psychological manifestations of mental illness, the record on The Café reveals so much. Steven is the father of The Pledge and it IS a good thing. It is a call to treat one another with at least a modicum of respect and what can possibly be wrong with that? And for those who harbor ill will toward Steven and for those who feel justified anger, still, the fact remains that the spirit of The Pledge is nonetheless a noble one. Readers of Chaucer will be familiar with The Summoner's Tale from The Canterbury Tales. For those not familiar, the skinny is that The Summoner does good despite his own intentions, i.e, the things he said were good things despite his own selfish predilections. I do not think Steven is a Summoner. Rather, the message is still a good one. Actually, with regard to spats, shortly after I joined the Café, Steven jumped all over me and we got into a royal dust up over a comment I made about the fact that I loathe performing for other magicians. Steven's reasoning has caused me to rethink my original aversion, but, yes, he could be combative.

Yet, The Café ALSO shows Steven offering superb advice in countless threads and Steven giving unselfishly and without recompense of his own expertise because he does love this art as much as the rest of us. So I find myself wondering why these instances are rarely mentioned.

And I agree that some of our VIPs ARE ill treated in this community. Yes, your eyes are bleeding due to my verbosity and I apologize, but, I will again write what I have written many MANY times here. I am also a musician and it is very rare that the very top performers in music take any active - or passive for that matter - roles in online music communities. In fact, the only bigger name musician I can think of is keyboardist Jordan Rudess of Dream Theater. Believe me, we respect Jordan for what he does and we are thankful that he takes the time out to talk to us, advise us, and generally just be there as one of the girls/guys. I think we would all suffer a collection cardiac infarction if a legend like Sir Paul McCartney would visit one of our communities! :)

Yet here, we have the equivalent and unfortunately, some take their presence for granted. Some of these VIPs offer decades worth of wisdom and whole threads pop up with people wanting to hang these people from the nearest tree. Why? Yes, there is one who seems to be a special favorite and is targeted frequently and at times mercilessly. He can be bombastic but, I have found that his bombastic responses tend to be a response to people who have made inane statements and ad hominem attacks. But one thing is certain: you always know where you stand with this VIP.

Consider some of the other VIPs we have here: Randy Wakeman, Darwin Ortiz, Curtis Kam, Michael Vincent (a gentleman if ever one was created), Jamie Grant, Peter Duffie (who doesn't bear the honorific but SHOULD), Cameron Francis, Dan Harlan, Bob Cassidy, and many more. These people have so much to teach those of us who are trying to be a tenth of the magicians/performers that they are, and, sadly, many of them have been the brunt of simply atrocious attacks. No, I do not place them above anyone else as human beings, but I DO listen to their words very openly as a magician. Pardon my pontification but I believe that they have earned the right to advise and to be listened to. Yes, I also believe that it is fine to disagree with them but that it should be done with respect. Hence, The Pledge, no matter what your feelings are or were toward Steven Youell, is a GOOD thing.

But The Pledge goes further: it does not apply only to the VIPs. It applies to all of us and many of us - myself perhaps chief among the community - have violated that Pledge. I regret that but I will keep trying to improve for as long as I can stay in this art that played a huge role in literally saved my life. And to all that I have wronged or disappointed, I beg your forgiveness. We are all frail and imperfect and we all trip up - even our VIPs.

The Magic Café is the world's largest online magic/mentalism community and it truly is - with all of its warts and sometimes festering sores - an invaluable resource for the beginner, the veteran, the pro, and hacks like yours truly. I think in the end that The Pledge is a call to respect not only each other but a higher call to respect this art and all of those who came before that made it possible for us to give our audiences something so beautiful and so rare. Maybe we forget that most non-magicians never get the privilege of witnessing well performed magic live. What we do is special in my humble estimation because for a span of time, we can offer the possibility that anything is possible. Perhaps an audience member is on the verge of losing his home. Perhaps another is praying for a cure of an illness plaguing a loved one. We do not know. But, it is certain that for that brief time we are with them, we can give them a tiny bit of respite from those worries. In a way, our magic IS real because it is human in the noblest sense.

Thank you to those who endured this novella.

Slainte,
Vlad
Message: Posted by: Muddy Dench (Apr 22, 2014 08:11AM)
All of your post is fine, Vlad. You make reasonable arguments (though I would take exception that he really apologized to Andrew since he did say in his 'apology' that he was smiling to know Andrew was beaten). It's understandable you have feelings as a friend and from your posts you would be a valued friend, no question about that. What bothers people is he is posting merrily away about card magic without having fulfilled his promises--on other sites and here under an assumed name. And, it's still going on. It is hard to forgive when this continues.
Message: Posted by: Dooby Scoo (Apr 22, 2014 08:17AM)
Excellent post as usual, Vlad, and I totally agree with you about the value he must have brought as a mentor. I'm jealous, to be honest! I've continued through the searches looking for most evidence to back up the accusations of his behaviour, and yet, all I can find is more knowledge, more wisdom, more GOLD whenever he talks about card magic. I haven't seen anything yet to contradict that but I have to say it's a pleasure looking for it! I feel like I am learning more and more and becoming a better card man just through this study. To the critics, I can only say this ; thanks for the Wild Goose Chase, guys!
Message: Posted by: Vlad_77 (Apr 22, 2014 11:34AM)
Thanks for the kind words Muddy Dench and Dooby Scoo. I cannot address the issue of Steven posting elsewhere or even here. And while my post does indeed represent a thank you to Steven as a mentor, I also wanted to convey that I do understand why people are upset.

So, my hope is that all of this can be cleared up. Steven's wisdom is missed here.

Slainte,
Vlad
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Apr 23, 2014 06:09AM)
[quote]People should learn to have respect for their betters.[/quote]

Ahahahaha. Who did ya have in mind? Jerry Lukins? He was a VIP here, under a different name; as I recall he set up a little website calling another member here a paedophile. Practically ruined the guy's life. Nice guy, right?

It seems that you may be suffering from low self esteem, if you think that having the letters 'VIP' on a magic forum makes one person 'better' than another.
Message: Posted by: Erdnase27 (Apr 23, 2014 06:21AM)
[quote]On Apr 23, 2014, tomsk192 wrote:
[quote]People should learn to have respect for their betters.[/quote]

Ahahahaha. Who did ya have in mind? Jerry Lukins? He was a VIP here, under a different name; as I recall he set up a little website calling another member here a paedophile. Practically ruined the guy's life. Nice guy, right?

It seems that you may be suffering from low self esteem, if you think that having the letters 'VIP' on a magic forum makes one person 'better' than another. [/quote]

I read that aswell and if that's true, he won't get my respect .. not now.. not ever.
Message: Posted by: Remotea (Apr 23, 2014 07:17AM)
Of course it is true and learning the history of magic is important, in all of it's forms.

"...The innuendo I made in that post was reprehensible and I expect that I will be deservedly crucified for posting it.

But you know what?

As bad as it may sound, right now it brings a smile to my face to know that Andrew xxxxxx was beaten into submission by someone he seriously believes is a moron and an idiot. Someone he believes is far below his own level of intelligence. And it's even funnier that he didn't have the smarts to check the IP's before he took action.

And Andrew? For the record, my membership number in Mensa is 1061061, so I don't really qualify as a moron or idiot...."

-Steven Youell, aka Jerry Lukins

Nice guy.

The full apology can easily be found with a quick search on the net.
Message: Posted by: Muddy Dench (Jul 26, 2014 10:52PM)
Besides the fact that this is a nonsense thread, I note that K2K (that's Keys to the Kingdom) still hasn't been produced. Hmmmmm. How long has it been? Take the Pledge, boys. Take the Pledge.
Message: Posted by: inigmntoya (Jul 26, 2014 11:04PM)
[quote]On Jul 26, 2014, Muddy Dench wrote:
Besides the fact that this is a nonsense thread, I note that K2K (that's Keys to the Kingdom) still hasn't been produced. Hmmmmm. How long has it been? Take the Pledge, boys. Take the Pledge. [/quote]

Old news. The horse is dead. What's your point?
Message: Posted by: 1tepa1 (Jul 27, 2014 07:10AM)
[quote]On Jul 26, 2014, Muddy Dench wrote:
Besides the fact that this is a nonsense thread, I note that K2K (that's Keys to the Kingdom) still hasn't been produced. Hmmmmm. How long has it been? Take the Pledge, boys. Take the Pledge. [/quote]

I don't understand how Stevens actions have anything to do with the pledge itself. It is an idea. Whether he followed the idea himself does not disqualify it.

I have heard that Steven had a some type of a mental breakdown, even a mental illnes that suddendly surfaced. Does anyone have more information about this?
Message: Posted by: Vlad_77 (Jul 27, 2014 04:36PM)
[quote]On Jul 26, 2014, Muddy Dench wrote:
Besides the fact that this is a nonsense thread, I note that K2K (that's Keys to the Kingdom) still hasn't been produced. Hmmmmm. How long has it been? Take the Pledge, boys. Take the Pledge. [/quote]

Come on, you've been lurking around here for long enough to know the d***ed story. In fact you've commented in a few threads about Steven and it's getting really old. Grow up, okay? Oh, and The Pledge doesn't prevent commenting on obvious s*** stirring which it seems you are doing.
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (Jul 27, 2014 05:27PM)
I think [b]The Pledge[/b] (why is it capitalized?) is inane.

What is wrong with just telling the truth?

I know I am new, but what the hell?
Message: Posted by: ZakKnapper UK (Jul 27, 2014 05:43PM)
I'm in without an argument
Message: Posted by: Robert P. (Jul 27, 2014 06:34PM)
[quote]On Jul 27, 2014, Kabbalah wrote:
I think [b]The Pledge[/b] (why is it capitalized?) is inane.

What is wrong with just telling the truth?

I know I am new, but what the hell? [/quote]

I believe the intent of this thread is to remind to treat others with respect. Nothing wrong with telling the truth, but the criticism can be constructive.

This should be a given, but unfortunately this hasn't been the case and this place has seen a lot of great people leave because of it.

I think a certain wise man named Spongebob Squarepants said it best when he said [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLuK-QEOmcg]"don't be a jerk"[/url].
Message: Posted by: Claudio (Jul 28, 2014 01:33AM)
This thread was/is just laughable when one of the main transgressors to 'the pledge' was the OP himself.

Here what I wrote on this very same thread a few years back:

'I find this thread naive. In any case the Café has an etiquette we all implicitly agree to when we join and it says among other things:

"However, like a real Café, we do expect you to act like ladies and gentlemen and show good manners and courtesy while visiting. Thank you."

That surely should be enough to diffuse most issues. Taking another pledge is not going to make any difference - I bet.'
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Apr 2, 2015 08:48AM)
OK .. I'll take The Pledge!!!!!
Message: Posted by: Alan Wheeler (Apr 26, 2015 11:41AM)
:ohyes: Sounds good to me, too. :angel:
Message: Posted by: sleightskullduggery (May 8, 2015 10:48AM)
I'm in.
Message: Posted by: MeetMagicMike (May 8, 2015 11:27PM)
I added the pledge to my signature early on and it really has helped to remind me not to get into emotional one on ones with people. I still will debate and argue my point but I always consider the other readers and not just that one guy who may have pushed my buttons.
Message: Posted by: Phil1111 (Feb 15, 2016 02:21PM)
Count me in!
Message: Posted by: Chatterbox41 (Feb 15, 2016 04:25PM)
I'm in!
Message: Posted by: PeterOwens (Feb 21, 2016 05:58AM)
I'm in, maybe new here but agree 100% with the stated above. Thanks

-P
Message: Posted by: RJLockwood (Feb 21, 2016 06:53PM)
Great post, I'm in!
Message: Posted by: Geeraff12 (Feb 21, 2016 10:57PM)
I'm in
Message: Posted by: 1tepa1 (Feb 22, 2016 06:21AM)
Does anyone know how Steven is doing nowdays?
Message: Posted by: necro555 (Apr 17, 2016 10:42PM)
[quote]On Feb 22, 2016, 1tepa1 wrote:
Does anyone know how Steven is doing nowdays? [/quote]


It appears that Steven Youell will be doing an online lecture at the Magician's Forum soon.
Message: Posted by: klinkklonk (Apr 20, 2016 03:18AM)
I just checked out the magician's forum. why are they calling this place the Green Sewer?
Message: Posted by: Tally_NSA (Apr 20, 2016 03:56AM)
[quote]On Apr 20, 2016, klinkklonk wrote:
I just checked out the magician's forum. why are they calling this place the Green Sewer? [/quote]

I would just point out that you are unlikely to get a response. The OP is dated 2011. So, someone sometime bumped a 5 year old thread.
Message: Posted by: klinkklonk (Apr 20, 2016 06:26PM)
I dunnuh bruh. Somebody asked how the guy was doing and as it happen he's leading a session on another forum. Maybe somebody can ask him in the session why him and he's friends are trashmouthing this place when this place has a bunch of people like my friend wondering if he's getting his money back?
Message: Posted by: A Magic Cafe User (Feb 27, 2019 06:04AM)
I'm in.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Mar 6, 2019 05:37PM)
Https://redirect.viglink.com/?format=go&jsonp=vglnk_155191539043514&key=ccc2217bc2b75c4bdf5f7e57267f0464&libId=jsxubbvn010009xy000MA6dqz6ggv&loc=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.themagiciansforum.com%2Fpost%2Flife-is-over-im-homeless-10071766%3Fpid%3D1307952254&v=1&out=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.gofundme.com%2Fwife-took-all-the-money-and-left&ref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.themagiciansforum.com%2Flatest&title=Life%20is%20Over--%20I%27m%20homeless...%20-%20The%20Magician%27s%20Forum&txt=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.gofundme.com%2Fwife-took-all-the-money-and-left
Message: Posted by: diamondjack (Mar 24, 2019 03:12AM)
I agree.
Message: Posted by: Kimura (Mar 24, 2019 04:47AM)
Https://www.gofundme.com/wife-took-all-the-money-and-left

Might be a good time to help someone in need.
Message: Posted by: aabc (Apr 1, 2019 11:38AM)
I'm in!
Message: Posted by: Wx4usa (Apr 7, 2019 02:36PM)
I'm in too. Respect, honor & decency. Good Stuff.
Message: Posted by: countrymaven (Apr 7, 2019 08:37PM)
I appreciate the tone of this. However, some people need to be reminded of being a decent person, or going to church or whatever.
So sometimes, when people act like children, they need to be reminded in a kind, but realistic way. I cannot take the pledge and do this.