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Topic: Latko's Cups and Balls
Message: Posted by: kentfgunn (Dec 27, 2011 06:30PM)
Holy Moley!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTBQ1LSQ_lU&feature=endscreen&NR=1

It's your move.

Kent
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Dec 27, 2011 07:29PM)
CHEKMATE
Message: Posted by: wunceaponatime (Dec 27, 2011 07:44PM)
Very creative and well routined. But I wish he didn't make the ball stick to the light pull. It might give some observers food for thought.
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Dec 27, 2011 08:23PM)
Clever and as different as it was it didn't entertain me. :kermit:
Message: Posted by: allen_m (Dec 27, 2011 08:34PM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-27 21:23, Pete Biro wrote:
Clever and as different as it was it didn't entertain me. [/quote]
I think that many routines suffer when there is no "patter" to guide the spectator along...
I appreciate the skill and like the creative routine; but, without a story it is hard to love....

YMMV,

-Allen M.
Message: Posted by: Eric Evans (Dec 27, 2011 08:58PM)
Yeah, I'm going to have to differ with you on this one Kent. I thought that entire routine was a mess.
Message: Posted by: kentfgunn (Dec 27, 2011 09:13PM)
Yeah,

Those silly guys at FISM, what were they thinking when they awarded him a prize?
Message: Posted by: DATMagic (Dec 27, 2011 09:28PM)
Very creative and lots of skill but I agree with Allen M.

David
Message: Posted by: Eric Evans (Dec 27, 2011 10:09PM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-27 22:13, kentfgunn wrote:
Yeah,

Those silly guys at FISM, what were they thinking when they awarded him a prize?
[/quote]
I'm not a mind reader so I couldn't tell you. But what I saw, after one viewing (that's all I could take), was at least 4 or 5 mistakes. Not to mention bad, horrible loads, below the table switches that were telegraphed. I could go on and on.

There's no excuse for not correcting the pawns coming out tipped over and then fumbling with them to try and stand them up, instead of trying to right them with the hand holding the cup. While the other "free" hand, sitting there acting as a screen for the next pawn, inexcusably does nothing other than screen the load.

Carve them out of balsa wood and weight them on the base so no matter how sloppy the load, they still right themselves. A routine gimmicked to the hilt, yet that simple fix somehow was missed?

What the heck was that menu anyway? Unmotivated as far as I could tell.

A mess from the get go.

Posted: Dec 28, 2011 1:45am
Well I'm feeling guilty for being so harsh now. Still, I really don't know what the judges were thinking. Perhaps his night at Le Grand Plus wasn't a good one. We've all had those.
Message: Posted by: boxjumper (Jan 1, 2012 09:55AM)
Very creative ideas but too long and too repetitive. It's the type of act I can see FISM judges would like. He needs to work a bit on his loads.

BJ
Message: Posted by: spcarlson (Jan 1, 2012 11:07AM)
Personally I thought it was very creative and was proud to see an artist performing close-up magic that can hold its own on a big stage for a large audience.

Maybe some of you should give some thought to what goes into creating something totally original, putting it all together and then performing it in front of a large full auditorium.


It doesn't take a lot of work or creativity to sit and watch something numerous times on You Tube and then criticize and nitpick it apart.


Thank you for posting it Kent the creativity was inspiring!

Steve Carlson
Message: Posted by: Eric Evans (Jan 1, 2012 10:13PM)
Hi Steve,

I might agree with you if this were some upstart on youtube. Instead we're talking about prime time TV and that FISM whatchamacallit. (Mr. Hallema might have had something to do with it, that would explain a lot.)

Also, I'm not sure if he held his own onstage with a close-up routine. Mind you I only saw the clip once, but I don't remember a plethora of audience reaction shots. What I did see was two camera screens that flanked his table, in order to help sell the magic to such a large crowd, I assume. Not sure if his personality "carried" that night with that audience.

Finally, I wasn't nitpicking. There were, and are, numerous major problems with the routine as it was performed that night.

I suppose it would be better to move this discussion to that part of this forum that concerns secrets. But, as I've never been there before, I feel that's unlikely.

Posted: Jan 1, 2012 11:26pm
Oh and one more thing,

One of the finest magicians alive on the planet today (if not the finest) is Eric Mead. He could work the Super Bowl at half time on a moments notice. I don't know how many awards(?) he has, but I don't think one from FISM is among them.

Capisco?
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Jan 1, 2012 11:14PM)
Eric:

Capisco? means "Do I understand?" not "Do you understand?" Capisco means "I understand," except when followed by a question mark. I think the word you were looking for is "Capisce?"

I saw Latko do this routine at the combined IBM-SAM convention in 2008. He didn't have as much trouble with the loads as he did at FISM.

I don't appreciate his use of the DeCamps principle for the last load, though. Eric DeCamps hasn't released that yet.

I don't understand your reference to Flip Hallema, though.
Message: Posted by: kentfgunn (Jan 2, 2012 12:02AM)
I posted this because I found the routine original, to my unknowing eyes. I don't even know what the DeCamps principle is. Someday maybe Bill will explain it to me, (with Mr. DeCamps permission, of course).

I've never cared particularly for loads that are done when the performer is seated. I believe Vernon stood to do the final loads. (smart guy!)

I don't have the chops to perform the cups and balls silently. I have to jabber when I perform. The Latko routine had a theme and was very involved. For me, I prefer a shorter, less involved sequence. I still enjoyed watching the Latko's routine very much. I'll never take any prizes at FISM. I try not to compare what I do to other magicians. I've a particular fondness for the cups and balls and love to watch others do the trick as they conceive it.

I can commiserate with his having some small problems during the routine. He soldiered on and got through it all. With the length of that routine, it was no small feat.

To all that perform this venerable classic in an any way they choose I tip my hat.
Kent

PS. Didn't get the random use of Italian myself. I had tons of Latin as a kid and hung out with Italian kids in the neighborhood. I've only heard a form of that verb used in Italian, and only as an interrogative/imperative.
Bill, with minor web searching, I think this is right, in Italian.

o capisco (I understand)
tu capisci (you understand)
lui capisce (he, she, it understands)

When used as an imperative, the pronoun is left understood, and the last vowel is left off. I think those who write movie dialog might have let us all astray.

Si?
Message: Posted by: Dave V (Jan 2, 2012 01:58AM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-27 23:09, Eric Evans wrote:

What the heck was that menu anyway? Unmotivated as far as I could tell.

[/quote]
It's hard to tell on YouTube, but it was an instruction booklet on how to do the Cups and Balls. Using that ties in the cup routine with what looked to me like aluminum Morrissey cups ( a class of cup that would need an instruction booklet for beginners) but it doesn't explain the weird change to chess pieces.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Jan 2, 2012 09:01AM)
Bazar de Magia.

The routine didn't make any sense in 2008, either.

@Kent
[quote]
o capisco (I understand)
tu capisci (you understand)
lui capisce (he, she, it understands)
[/quote]
io capisco. In polite form, the third person is used in place of the familiar second person form tu. And of course, Eric would not be anything but polite.

Verstehen Sie?
Message: Posted by: kentfgunn (Jan 2, 2012 10:03AM)
Je ne comprends rien.
Message: Posted by: Alan Munro (Jan 2, 2012 11:07AM)
Man, that was a tedious routine to watch. I couldn't get through it all, without the overwhelming urge to close the browser tab.
Message: Posted by: Eric Evans (Jan 2, 2012 01:16PM)
On the other hand, I found a trick that Latko does that I do like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vI2bGtFKLWU
Message: Posted by: Alan Munro (Jan 2, 2012 04:51PM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-02 14:16, Eric Evans wrote:
On the other hand, I found a trick that Latko does that I do like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vI2bGtFKLWU
[/quote]
I wonder if he learned it from the same guy that Jeff McBride learned it from. Latko seems much too young to be the guy McBride learned it from.

That is a nice routine, but I still prefer to watch McBride perform it.
Message: Posted by: epoptika (Jan 12, 2012 10:41AM)
Simply stating that you do not find a routine entertaining or that it appears, to you, to be "a mess" does not strike me as necessarily mean-spirited or non-constructive. I have seen many "creative" routines that failed to entertain. No point in having a discussion forum if you can't freely say what you think.
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Jan 12, 2012 11:26AM)
"Mo Water" that's what Cas Boxley called it in the late 1940s when I saw him do it with two tea cups. It is in print in an old German book. Palmer will know the name of it. Such a simple thing but with great presentation... a killer. McBride is the best that I have seen do it.
Message: Posted by: Eric Evans (Jan 14, 2012 09:44PM)
Thank you Pete, that's great to know. Good to hear Jeff get such fine testimonial as well. I agree.
Message: Posted by: Eric Evans (Mar 7, 2012 02:43AM)
Btw Bill, Ich verstehe sehr gut.
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Mar 7, 2012 11:18AM)
MOX NIX
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Mar 7, 2012 03:47PM)
One of the cold, hard facts about this routine is that some of the parts everyone seems to think of as original have been pinched by Latko. He seems to be able to get away with it, because he won FISM. But the bottle production from the cups is not his.
Message: Posted by: Mac_Stone (Mar 7, 2012 07:27PM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-02 14:16, Eric Evans wrote:
On the other hand, I found a trick that Latko does that I do like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vI2bGtFKLWU
[/quote]

I like him more when he talks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8cv9uEOXhU&feature=related
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Mar 7, 2012 11:14PM)
Clever and creative but ... he sure telegraphs a ton of moves with awkward hand positions, unmotivated handling of the cups, the "something's going to appear behind that brochure" brochure, etc.

One after the other after the other....

Much too unnatural for me to rave too much about anything except the creative concept.
Especially after just watching a John Carney lecture where everything was so very natural and well thought-out and motivated.

I've seen other stuff of Latko's and he's a good performer, for sure. This just has some work left to be done.

The brochure botch is the worst offense because, done better, it could have been a great surprise.

Be honest.. anyone surprised that the brochure was hiding something? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? I didn't think so. Notice that it didn't matter what it was. We knew something was back there so the magic was lost.


Many flaws but I applaud his creative efforts.
Message: Posted by: Terry Holley (Mar 7, 2012 11:29PM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-02 00:14, Bill Palmer wrote:

I don't appreciate his use of the DeCamps principle for the last load, though. Eric DeCamps hasn't released that yet.

[/quote]

I just came across this thread and video. A little too involved for me, but I love to see new ideas with the Cups.

The idea of who is the creator of what in magic is interesting. I do not know for sure what the DeCamps principle involves, but I used the same idea for a final load back during the American Bicentennial (1976) using Pavels Super Cups. A set only cost about $5 back then. I painted them white, used a red close up mat, blue crocheted balls, and a mini Statue of Liberty as final load.

I never did any more with the idea after that because I did not feel that the final load looked that great coming from stacked cups. It just did not seem that amazing seeing the height of both. Maybe I had the "Magician's Complex." I'm still not convinced, but maybe the glass of liquid adds more mystery than a solid statue.

I'm interested in your thoughts about the "illusion" of the tall glass appearing. Please pm me if you are interested to share.

Terry