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Topic: Strange dealing shoe
Message: Posted by: jackouille07 (Dec 28, 2011 10:14PM)
Hi guys, I've started to read the "gambling spot" about 1 year ago, very interesting section, full of good informations and great members.

So for my first post, I'll need some help to identify and how to use a dealing shoe I've buy one week ago. I've never see that before, it's a wooden shoe with leather on top. Very strange for a "dealing" shoe: you can't pull out the card from the shoe!!!

There is a lever you can activate from behind. there is no inscriptions, except a sticker on the bottom "Piazzesi, made in italy"

My english is not very good, so some pictures and video will be more explicite than a long text.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/855/p1130595o.jpg
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/834/p1130598r.jpg
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/714/p1130600un.jpg
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/862/p1130601.jpg
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/171/p1130604h.jpg
http://imageshack.us/clip/my-videos/845/m5n.mp4

If someone have an idea....

Thanks!
Message: Posted by: The Dowser (Dec 29, 2011 06:16AM)
I can only guess, but If I did I would guess that it is an old Chemin de fer or Baccarat shoe used in "stand up" games (stand up refers to the dealer/stick man, not the players) where the shoe gets passed between players. The problem to pull the cards may possibly be part of the construction so that the player accepting the shoe could only pull the card when the shoe is set to do so... in this way no cards are pulled in error (or partially exposed for peeking). But it seems more likely that the problem to pull the cards is do to either a missing piece or pieces of the shoe. It is difficult to get a good look from those photo's and this is definitely the first one I've seen like this. Did it come with a roller?
Any way, that is my best shot in the dark... the handle on the back leads me to believe it was used in a game where the players accept the bank (and the shoe).
Message: Posted by: tommy (Dec 29, 2011 06:51AM)
There is a lever you can activate from behind.

What does the lever activate?
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Dec 29, 2011 08:22AM)
Yep, The Dowser is right. It looks like an old Chemin de Fer shoe. We can see that kind of shoe in old French movies, when gamblers show off in casinos scenes.
Message: Posted by: jackouille07 (Dec 29, 2011 08:41AM)
"Did it come with a roller?"

No there is no roller inside the shoe, because the mecanisme activate by the lever.

"What does the lever activate?"

My english is too poor to explain, so watch the video, I've uploaded it on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdYvvgXscjI
Message: Posted by: jackouille07 (Dec 29, 2011 02:22PM)
"We can see that kind of shoe in old French movies"


AMcD Can you give me some movies titles where you've see a shoe like that?

Thanks.
Message: Posted by: NFS (Dec 29, 2011 03:14PM)
If more cards are in the shoe, does the lever help release the first card?

How many decks can it hold?
Message: Posted by: The Dowser (Dec 30, 2011 01:01AM)
At any rate, it really is a nice find...

After watching the video and seeing how the lever works, I have to assume that the lever was there so that the shoe could be aggressively slid around the table from players to the stick person (and visa-versa) with out the cards slipping out prematurely. I still wonder if their is any missing piece or pieces.
Message: Posted by: jackouille07 (Dec 30, 2011 03:36AM)
"If more cards are in the shoe, does the lever help release the first card?"

No, or I really don't know how....


"How many decks can it hold?"

It's hard to say, because the cards are not stored in a classic way... in the front part of the shoe you can put about 20 cards (but not 32) and in the shoe I'll say one deck of 52 cards or 54...

"I still wonder if their is any missing piece or pieces."

I' don't think there is missing pieces.


Here 2 pics of the shoe partially disassembled:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/820/p1130610d.jpg
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/827/p1130611v.jpg


And another video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1wR5Ceituk


As you can see when the cards are in front of the shoe they can slide freely but can't be pull out, but when I put the cards on the stay (activate by the lever) in the shoe, they are larger than the stay, so they can't slide easily or can't slide at all. Note that the sliding action in the shoe is only possible because I have omitted the metallic piece on the front and because the shoe is open.



I really wonder what is the goal of this shoe. You can't put easily the cards in, and you can't easily pull out them....

Maybe it's just a decorative piece, but if, why there is a lever?? Strange...
Message: Posted by: The Dowser (Dec 30, 2011 09:33AM)
Is this shoe designed to deal from two separate decks/slugs (gaffed)?

Can a slug be dealt from underneath the lever?

or....

Perhaps the front part of the shoe was "loaded" by using the handle to tilt the shoe forward while simultaneously pressing the lever... allowing a small clump of cards to reload the front compartment ready for dealing.

Or is that compartment used like a discard rack for burn cards and actual cards in play are dealt from underneath it?

What ever it turns out to be, I really don't believe it was a decorative piece.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Dec 30, 2011 11:47AM)
The mirror like metal at the front tells me the cards, in whatever game it was being used for, were being dealt face up. I just can not see anyone one making a shoe for dealing cards face down acrross a mirror. A wild guess would be it was used for a game like faro, a faro box of some sort, perhaps?
Message: Posted by: silverking (Dec 30, 2011 12:35PM)
What's the provenance of this shoe?
Where did you get it.......who did you get it from........what did they tell you about it?

The lid which [i]completely closes[/i] the top might be seen as offering additional support to Tommy's suggestion that the shoe is designed for a game requiring the cards to be dealt face up.

The lever actuator on the rear of the shoe is hardly "stealthy", in fact it's quite obvious.........which seems incongruous with it being a gaffed shoe (absolutes being dangerous in the absence of information).

Also, the slot for the faceplate seems to go down a lot further than you've got the faceplate inserted.........does the faceplate in fact set right down to the bottom of that slot?

As an aside, is the leatherwork on the top soft-padded underneath......or is it just fancy sewn leather, unpadded?
Message: Posted by: jackouille07 (Dec 30, 2011 09:55PM)
"Is this shoe designed to deal from two separate decks/slugs (gaffed)?"

No, I don't think it is designed for that.


"Can a slug be dealt from underneath the lever?"

No


"Perhaps the front part of the shoe was "loaded" by using the handle to tilt the shoe forward while simultaneously pressing the lever... "

Yes it's a possibility.


"The mirror like metal at the front tells me the cards, in whatever game it was being used for, were being dealt face up. I just can not see anyone one making a shoe for dealing cards face down acrross a mirror. A wild guess would be it was used for a game like faro, a faro box of some sort, perhaps?"

Good point Tommy, do you know other games where the cards are dealt face up?

"What's the provenance of this shoe?
Where did you get it.......who did you get it from........what did they tell you about it?"

I've buy 2 shoes, one baccarat shoe (you can see it on some picture, behind the other shoe)
and the "strange" shoe. I've buy them on leboncoin.com a website like ebay but no bid, only "buy it now".

I've asked to the seller if he know for what games the shoe was designed, but he was not able to answer.
The is not specialized in gambling at all.

"Also, the slot for the faceplate seems to go down a lot further than you've got the faceplate inserted.........does the faceplate in fact set right down to the bottom of that slot? "

The faceplate can't go down to the bottom of the slot, no.

"As an aside, is the leatherwork on the top soft-padded underneath......or is it just fancy sewn leather, unpadded?"

I don't understand what you want to say (Grrrr too poor english vocabulary...)
The leather on top is just glued, I think it's just decorative....
Message: Posted by: silverking (Dec 30, 2011 10:03PM)
I'm wondering if there's a piece(s) missing.

I see the faceplate screws down on the top, but it's actually quite a bit higher than any other shoe I've ever seen.

There's seems to be too large an open area where the card to be drawn from.
Message: Posted by: silverking (Dec 30, 2011 10:45PM)
After looking in "The Open Book", "Monte Carlo Secret Service Book", "Gambling and Gambling Devices", "Protection - The Sealed Book", "The Stealing Machine", Scheinr's "Gambling Collectibles - A Sure Winner" and a bunch of other somewhat ancient books and catalogs including most of the recent auction catalogs with a preponderance of gambling history for sale.........I'd posit that this is a strange (and possibly rare) shoe.

It's odd that we can't pin down the actual game it was built for.

When the pictures and video are taken literally, it seems (through the action of the lever) only to deliver a small packet of cards into the front "tray".......those cards coming from within the shoe, AND laying dead flat.
It also seems odd that there's an obvious slot extending from the bottom of the face plate, but that the face plate screws solidly down on the top surface of the shoe. (this extension of the slot could possibly accommodate a missing piece?).

So........what game requires a small packet of cards to be delivered, possibly more than once......and then dealt from a shoe?

Perhaps some of the best connected members of the forum could ask around to those who don't post here, but know more than we do :)

A true mystery.
Message: Posted by: jackouille07 (Dec 31, 2011 05:08AM)
I've take a closer look to the slot extending and the reason for that is the slot have been made with a large diameter circular saw, so the slot continue but not deep as before. (in circular form)

I really don't think there is any missing pieces.

What are the gambling manufacturer in italy?

Dal Negro is italian, right? if someone can complete the list, I will ask them...

What is the translation for "dealing shoe", it's a specific gambling term, so google-translator can't translate it correctly.
Message: Posted by: The Dowser (Dec 31, 2011 06:10AM)
I think the literal translation in some other languages equates to "dealing box".
Message: Posted by: iamslow (Dec 31, 2011 08:05PM)
That's the oldschool shoe... Try putting in more decks mabee one or two more... I think you have to press and hold down on the lever with your left hand and pull out card at the same time as pressing will raise the cards so that it can be pulled out.... do you understand what I mean?? then when the deal is done you just naturall let go of the lever and the cards wont pop out.... this looks like a shoe from before the rollers were introduced... nice toy..
Message: Posted by: jackouille07 (Jan 4, 2012 08:27AM)
You can't put 2 decks in it at all! I don't clearly understand what you mean for the deal, but for me you simply can't pull out the card from the shoe, lever or not lever.

iamslow, do you have some pictures of the shoe before the rollers were introduced?

Thanks to all who help me to indentify the shoe, and "SAFE AND HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL!!!"
Message: Posted by: iamslow (Jan 5, 2012 06:26AM)
I watched the vid again and I guess I was mistaken the first time I watched it...not sure if that's even a dealing shoe... the only pic ive seen of the old ones are from old catalogs...
Message: Posted by: silverking (Jan 5, 2012 09:05AM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-05 07:26, iamslow wrote:
...not sure if that's even a dealing shoe..
[/quote]
I wonder (out loud) if it's got something to do with storing and presenting dice........or those rectangular checks sometimes used for Baccarat?

Of course, it also could be something from a restaurant, designed to dispense sugar cubes, or tea bags.
Message: Posted by: The Dowser (Jan 5, 2012 11:46AM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-05 10:05, silverking wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-01-05 07:26, iamslow wrote:
...not sure if that's even a dealing shoe..
[/quote]
I wonder (out loud) if it's got something to do with storing and presenting dice........or those rectangular checks sometimes used for Baccarat?

Of course, it also could be something from a restaurant, designed to dispense sugar cubes, or tea bags.
[/quote]
I was starting to think along the same lines the other day... cigarrettes.
Message: Posted by: manolesta73 (Jan 5, 2012 04:42PM)
I do not know Piazzesi manufacturer, is probably a fake made ​​in Italy?
or is it a containers for furnishings :)
can I see a picture of the sticker?
The Italians manufacturers are Dal Negro and Modiano.
"Sabot" is the translation of Dealing Shoe,
sorry for my bad English
All the best
Message: Posted by: jackouille07 (Jan 6, 2012 06:33AM)
Hey, Silverking and Dowser, you're probably right! I've buy this "strange shoe" with a baccarat shoe, so I was thinking it was a dealing shoe too, but maybe there is nothing to do with cards. I will try if cigarettes can be stored and distributed frome the shoe.
Message: Posted by: jackouille07 (Jan 8, 2012 02:59PM)
The Dowser was right.... The shoe deal nicely cigarettes.

But this shoe will definetly stay in my gambling collection, because of his apparence and the story about it!


Thanks to all!