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Topic: Logical Deck - Touson
Message: Posted by: doriancaudal (Jan 18, 2012 03:32AM)
What do you think about that guys?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQKMV-VtLPQ&list=UU4Eoc9GKNXorrjwnrdtCkzw&index=2&feature=plcp

We have finally reached the magician’s ideal.

Without touching and looking at the chosen card, even asking any questions, the magician can see which card has been chosen.
It’s not just happening in a dream; “Logical Deck” makes ultimate miracles in reality.

The Big secret of “Logical Deck” is the mark that is logically and cleverly constructed.
It’s no wonder it takes us to the next generation of Marked Deck.

In the past, we needed to look at the back of the marked card to read it, so it was impossible to read a card in the middle of the deck.

But the past is OVER. With “Logical Deck”, you can read the card even when the cards are stacked- AND without sliding the card to see the back.
You can read even the middle card in the deck instantly and easily.

There is NO need to stare at the card. Once you get used to reading it, you can read a couple cards at the same time instantly.

You can fool your spectators and even your magician friends.

You will receive special instructions that focus on 2 basic routines, and extra idea to combine with other items.

Simple, yet logically, cleverly, and cleanly a truly Mysterious effect!

Comment from Masuda:
“When I saw this trick the first time, I was totally fooled even though I already knew this trick is a revision of my trick…

This trick is based on one mathematic logic. However, the cards don’t have to be lined up in order. WOW! That means even the spectator can shuffle the deck!

You can see the card in the moment, as this cleverly gimmicked deck allows you to peek at the number and suit with natural, simple and easy handling.

He is a Super genius guy!” --- Masuda
Message: Posted by: rowdymagi5 (Jan 20, 2012 05:49AM)
Sounds interesting. Anybody have this yet?
Message: Posted by: ReviewerMaster (Jan 20, 2012 06:01AM)
This guy always have clever stuff. Will post my thoughts when mine arrives.
Message: Posted by: Al Straker (Jan 23, 2012 12:48AM)
Yeh I spotted this on SEO and have been very tempted to order, will let you know if I do.
Message: Posted by: Matthew Jones (Jan 23, 2012 03:31PM)
Now the question is, if and when the participant shuffles the deck, can it be a normal riffle shuffle or overhand shuffle? Or does the participant have to do a Hindu Shuffle? Namely because I've tried teaching about 20 of my non magician friends and family to do the Hindu Shuffle before and for some reason it's like trying to teach somebody a foreign language in 2 days, it's just not possible.
Message: Posted by: drphil (Jan 23, 2012 07:57PM)
More important then the question of shuffling the deck is the ability to read the deck. Look up useless resistance by musada.
Message: Posted by: drphil (Jan 23, 2012 09:11PM)
More important then the question of shuffling the deck is the ability to read the deck. Look up useless resistance by musada.
Message: Posted by: e-man (Jan 24, 2012 10:31PM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-23 22:11, drphil wrote:
More important then the question of shuffling the deck is the ability to read the deck. Look up useless resistance by musada.
[/quote]
It was my understanding that you must have very good eyesight for this..?
Message: Posted by: coosticks (Jan 24, 2012 11:01PM)
I'm interested in this too..... sounds really strong; looking forward to some reviews
Message: Posted by: saysold1 (Jan 25, 2012 12:49AM)
It seems to be the edges of the cards are key to the markings.
Message: Posted by: Lar (Jan 25, 2012 01:34AM)
Hello all,

The Logical Deck effect itself seems similar to X-Ray by Ben Harris & Steve Shufton which I use a lot.

Comparing the two effects with The Logical Deck the cards can apparently be shuffled by the spectator prior to the effect starting although I suspect that the performer needs to see the cards before they are placed back in the box. In the demo it is the performer who puts the cards back in the box although I suspect that the spectator could do so if desired.

In X-Ray the cards are not shuffled by the spectator prior to the effect starting but they can be shuffled by the performer and shown to be totally random. Once the cards are handed over to the spectator the performer never needs to touch or even see the cards or the box again.

The one significant flaw with X-Ray is that on rare occasions you will miss. With The Logical Deck I suspect it has a 100% hit rate.

I am very intrigued by The Logical Deck, it's definitely on my watch list.

Regards,

Laurence.
Message: Posted by: drphil (Jan 25, 2012 09:43AM)
I doubt that you could read the card if you don't put them in the box. Think where the marks on the card has to be. Still waiting for a review.
Message: Posted by: saysold1 (Jan 25, 2012 10:07AM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-25 02:34, lhookway wrote:
Hello all,

The Logical Deck effect itself seems similar to X-Ray by Ben Harris & Steve Shufton which I use a lot.

Comparing the two effects with The Logical Deck the cards can apparently be shuffled by the spectator prior to the effect starting although I suspect that the performer needs to see the cards before they are placed back in the box. In the demo it is the performer who puts the cards back in the box although I suspect that the spectator could do so if desired.

In X-Ray the cards are not shuffled by the spectator prior to the effect starting but they can be shuffled by the performer and shown to be totally random. Once the cards are handed over to the spectator the performer never needs to touch or even see the cards or the box again.

The one significant flaw with X-Ray is that on rare occasions you will miss. With The Logical Deck I suspect it has a 100% hit rate.

I am very intrigued by The Logical Deck, it's definitely on my watch list.

Regards,

Laurence.
[/quote]

Laurence-

Interesting.

I use X Ray all the time and at this stage my hit rate is easily 90-95% - it is a grand slam great effect and spectators love it. I love it too!

I'm intrigued by this as you are suggesting that this uses the same well known underlying principal as X Ray - if that is the case then you would only need 4-6 markings on the edges of the cards to know which card was taken and turned around. The turning around of the card would change the orientation of the "logical" markings... lets say the marks vary and each one jogs a little more disrupting their continuity.

Also the type of shuffling seems irrelevant - I surmise that this effect may be from Asia where we all know that Hindu is the predominant shuffle.

Just educated guessing :)

But it would be easy enough tonight for me to play with a new deck and experiment.

But on that note, if this does use the same idea as X Ray then it would also be prone to the same slight possibility that the spectator doesn't hit the "right" cards - which means you would be wrong on this having a 100% hit rate. Anything depending on that method can't be 100% as the spectator always has the possibility of missing rarely.
Message: Posted by: saysold1 (Jan 25, 2012 10:13AM)
Also note that in the video the magician does his demo cut from the ends - while orienting so the spectator is apt to (and does) cut along the middle.

I also thought I saw a shimmer of the chosen card which did indicate that there was probably some work visible.
Message: Posted by: Lar (Jan 25, 2012 10:48AM)
Hi Saysold,

Effect wise X-Ray and The Logical Deck appear to be similar but I do suspect that the methods are entirely different.

In my original post I didn't mean to infer that the methods themselves were similar, just the effect itself from the perspective of the spectators.

A 90+% hit rate with X-Ray is about what I get too. I can live with that because I feel that X-Ray is just so strong. Once you hand the spectator the deck to choose a card you never touch or see it again for the duration of the performance. It just totally baffles audiences since in their eyes any kind of jiggery pokery is impossible.

If The Logical Deck does uses edge markings then that is very sneaky indeed.

I guess that you could edge mark one short edge to indicate the suit and one long edge to indicate the value. When the chosen card is flipped over the edge markings of that one card would therefore be the only visible markings seen on one side of the deck. Assuming this is the case then you would have to be careful that the spectators shuffle the cards without messing up their orientation; maybe that's why the Hindu Shuffle was used. I imagine that having keen eyesight (or a bionic eye) would be advisable too.

Regards,

Laurence.
Message: Posted by: saysold1 (Jan 25, 2012 11:02AM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-25 11:48, lhookway wrote:
Hi Saysold,

Effect wise X-Ray and The Logical Deck appear to be similar but I do suspect that the methods are entirely different.

In my original post I didn't mean to infer that the methods themselves were similar, just the effect itself from the perspective of the spectators.

A 90+% hit rate with X-Ray is about what I get too. I can live with that because I feel that X-Ray is just so strong. Once you hand the spectator the deck to choose a card you never touch or see it again for the duration of the performance. It just totally baffles audiences since in their eyes any kind of jiggery pokery is impossible.

If The Logical Deck does uses edge markings then that is very sneaky indeed.

I guess that you could edge mark one short edge to indicate the suit and one long edge to indicate the value. When the chosen card is flipped over the edge markings of that one card would therefore be the only visible markings seen on one side of the deck. Assuming this is the case then you would have to be careful that the spectators shuffle the cards without messing up their orientation; maybe that's why the Hindu Shuffle was used. I imagine that having keen eyesight (or a bionic eye) would be advisable too.

Regards,

Laurence.
[/quote]

Or just do it the X Ray way and limit the selections. Since there is cuting involved I am more apt to think that the cutting is involved with the method - more so than the markings.

Getting a quick look at 52 possible combos would be a pain - I doubt that highly.
Message: Posted by: Devin Knight (Jan 25, 2012 02:58PM)
I have this and love it. The cards can be riffle shuffle, hindu or overhand. No need to put the cards back in the case but it makes it easier to read the marks. YES YOU NEED VERY GOOD EYESIGHT to do this. The ad already says the cards are edge marked, so I am not exposing anything by saying the marks are only on one end of the deck, a short side. The marks on the reverse card can be spotted and read in about 2 seconds, no trying to compare. The marking is the most ingenious I have seen. This is a keeper.

Devin Knight
Message: Posted by: Lar (Jan 25, 2012 03:01PM)
The more I look at the demo the more baffled I become.

In truth I don't like the fact that in the demo the performer turns around and then puts the cards in the box. Why can't the spectator put the cards in the box themselves, that seems fairer doesn't it? For me that is a big strength of X-Ray insofar as the performer never touches or sees the deck after the selection is made.

Having said that I wonder just how easy it is to obtain the peek with The Logical Deck.

Do you actually need to handle the deck to get the peek ?

Or can you get the peek without handling the deck at all? For example could you get the peek without touching the deck whilst it is still on the table and you are seated or standing say 3 to 4 feet away?

If you can peek the card without handling the deck at all then you could turn around after the spectator has cut to their card, quickly get the peek and then turn back around saying, "Oh give the cards a good shuffle and pop them back in the box so no-one can see them."

If you could do that then you would have an effect that is very very very similar to X-Ray but which will always be a 100% hit. That would be pretty amazing.

Question: If anyone has The Logical Deck do you actually need to handle the cards and put them back in the box to get the peek or can the peek be obtained totally hands off at a short distance?

Regards,

Laurence.
Message: Posted by: Devin Knight (Jan 25, 2012 03:06PM)
The cards can be left on the table (squared) by the spectator. Three feet away is about the most you can get otherwise the marks are too small to be seen. I just put the deck on the table and measured and I could see them 3 feet away.
Message: Posted by: Lar (Jan 25, 2012 11:04PM)
That's good to know, I'm leaning towards getting Logical Deck now. Thanks Devin.

Regards,

Laurence.
Message: Posted by: Nicolino (Jan 26, 2012 02:08AM)
This looks the new utility device for card tricks... but are the marks really well disguised??
Message: Posted by: Devin Knight (Jan 26, 2012 06:23AM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-26 03:08, Nicolino wrote:
This looks the new utility device for card tricks... but are the marks really well disguised??
[/quote]

As long as you keep the marked edge away. If the spectator sees the marked end, he will see blobs or red and back ink on the left end. I don't think it would give the secret completely away as there appears to be no pattern, just globs of color. So far I have had no trouble keeping the end away from the spectator's vision.
Message: Posted by: magicphill (Jan 26, 2012 01:10PM)
Have to say I quite like this

As per the post above you will need to ensure the spectator doesn't see one end of the deck. With regards shuffling which was my concern there's no reason why the deck can't be overhand shuffled or if your confident that the spectator isn't clumsy when it comes to shuffling you could let them. Personally I don't think its necessary for the spectator to shuffle because they can see you fairly mixing the deck up and you can then spread the deck to show its mixed nature and that all the cards are different. As for deducting the chosen card going on concerns mentioned above the deck is perfectly squared before being handed back to you to put in the box. As for deducting the spectators card I picked up the system within five minutes.

There is no DVD with this just written instructions however they are well produced almost mirroring in style to the instructions you get with Tenyo tricks. Also a bonus routine which will involve the use of an Invisible deck.
Message: Posted by: Nicolino (Jan 26, 2012 01:39PM)
Thanks Devin - but the way you describe it, isn't there a minor chance the trick fails depending on [i]how[/i] the spectator turns over his card??
Message: Posted by: saysold1 (Jan 26, 2012 01:43PM)
Exactly.

If the card is spun around - highly possible - then ...
Message: Posted by: J M Talbot (Jan 26, 2012 02:05PM)
Clearly demonstrating the action and possibly butting the hot end against the case might reduce the chance for error. This of course would mean you would have to case the deck to get the read. I am intriqued with the possibilities with this deck...

John
Message: Posted by: Nicolino (Jan 26, 2012 02:26PM)
Yeah, my question was more theoretical, admittedly - there's no question that one can handle this issue with slight audience management.
Message: Posted by: J M Talbot (Jan 26, 2012 04:17PM)
Now I am thinking if I just have them put a card in your new Mati envelope I may not need this deck...
Message: Posted by: Devin Knight (Jan 26, 2012 04:35PM)
If the card is turned end for end, the trick will not work. No way. You have to ensure it is turned over sideways.
Message: Posted by: saysold1 (Jan 26, 2012 05:20PM)
Together now...

A U D I E N C E M A N A G E M E N T
Message: Posted by: drphil (Jan 26, 2012 07:38PM)
Audience mgt. with your back turned away from the one with total control over the cards and as a result the outcome of the effect. This is risky when by just using a different method and regular m_____ deck similar results can be achei ved. My main concern is the ability to read the marks quickly and correctly.
Message: Posted by: Devin Knight (Jan 26, 2012 09:58PM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-26 20:38, drphil wrote:
Audience mgt. with your back turned away from the one with total control over the cards and as a result the outcome of the effect. This is risky when by just using a different method and regular m_____ deck similar results can be achei ved. My main concern is the ability to read the marks quickly and correctly.
[/quote]

The marks can be read in about 2 seconds with NO CHANCE of failure. This is why I love this deck so much. I don't wish to expose anything, but let's just say when the card is reversed it is the only mark you can see on the right side of the deck and the mark is so clever there is no way to misread it. That is why it only takes about 2 seconds. Ingenious! Just how he marks the deck this way is the secret you are buying.

Devin
Message: Posted by: drphil (Jan 26, 2012 11:06PM)
I know how the deck works also my only concern is if I will be able to see the marks. I have read from others that say the deck is hard to see the marks. Of course everyone's eyesight is different and what may be easy for some might be difficult for others. I 'm just relaying comments from others who have the original deck by Musada.
Message: Posted by: Nicolino (Jan 27, 2012 01:09AM)
True, Phil, even more when you also have to discern two colours. But still an intriguing idea/deck....
Message: Posted by: drphil (Jan 27, 2012 01:46AM)
Nicolino I couldn't agree more great idea and it might be worth a try. Will wait for more reviews.
Message: Posted by: takeachance (Feb 1, 2012 07:08PM)
Well that was a waste of $32 for me. I luv marked decks but this would be the worst I've ever seen. You have to have it stacked which makes the marking not really needed. Plus the markings are at one end, so you have to do a hindu shuffle @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ it goes from bad to worse. The markings are terrible. You could not make a more complicated system if you set out to do so. Oh well, when a new thread comes up for worst buy for 2012, I'll be able to contribute, in fact I could probably go back quite a few years with this baby for my worst buy. How the hell someone thought this was practical is beyond me. Of course this is just my opinion, but I strongly suggest asking to look at this before buying. For me 1 out of 10 only because I'll get some use from it for my ambitous card routine and giving away the signed card. Very dissappointing
Message: Posted by: saysold1 (Feb 1, 2012 07:15PM)
I saw it a few days ago - a local friend here does not have a Café account but I am trying to encourage him to post his own review.

He found some interesting and helpful tweaks to make it work and it actually (with tweaks) is a pretty cool & unique I think. But it does need some management.

Look for his review (Tom) and if he does post lets give him a big Café welcome...
Message: Posted by: takeachance (Feb 1, 2012 07:21PM)
Ha, LOL, he must be a miricle worker, but look forward to hearing what he thinks.
Message: Posted by: Failed Magician (Feb 1, 2012 07:43PM)
Thanks Brett, this is why I love the Café, we get to hear the two sides of the story.
Message: Posted by: takeachance (Feb 1, 2012 07:54PM)
Yes, I'd certainly like to see more people buying this and giving their opinion. In fact I take back what I said Failed Magician, you should go and buy this, Its fantastic!
Message: Posted by: saysold1 (Feb 2, 2012 08:05PM)
OK, here is my friend Tom's review of the Logical Deck which he purchased recently from SEO. He is a magician hobbyist like me and has been into magic for many years.

He has had trouble registering on the Café because of some email snafu, so he asked me to post this for him:

Hi Brett:

Feel free to post this on Magic Café.

I am a "lurker" but due to my e-mail account, (AOL), I have not been able to join the Café yet. I am working on it. But after reading the poor reviews given to Logical Deck, I thought I should try and throw my two cents in.

I recently purchased this deck. Yes, it is a marked deck. But not marked like traditional marked decks. The markings are on one of the short sides of the deck.

I own other marked decks, but many times have trouble seeing the "markings" or making out the suits or numbers. Especially when its late and my eyes are tired. Logical deck does not mark in the same manner. I actually find these markings on Logical Deck to be MUCH easier to read. I can tell in just 2 seconds what the card is.

In my opinion, it is very simple to read.

As far as shuffling, I am not a big Hindu shuffle lover. And since the cards cannot be turned end for end, having someone riffle shuffle is not a good idea with this deck either. So I spread the deck showing the cards are all mixed. then I personally riffle shuffle a few times to further mix as they watch.

The deck DOES NOT need to be stacked in any particular order.

The downfall of the deck is this. The spectator is supposed to flip the card over side to side. But if they turn it end for end, long-ways, you are s@rewed IF you only follow the written instructions. So I came up with an easy solution. I wont go into full details so as to not give away the secret, but if you have the deck you will understand my gist.

I marked the 1st and 4th markings on the top and bottom edges of the two jokers with a black Sharpie. So when I begin the trick I remove the jokers but keep them handy. So I turn my back, let the spectator do their thing, and when I turn around, if I don't see the card they selected, I know they did not fully follow my directions, and they flipped it end for end.

So now I put the jokers back on the deck, pick up the deck and put it in the card box, MARKED end first. Now as the deck is sliding into the card box, I peek, compare my "joker markings" with the cards markings, and I *instantly* know what their card is.

I am not saying Logical Deck is the killer effect of the century. But I personally find it easier to use than traditional marked cards - and I like it very much :)

Perhaps a 7 out of 10 would be a fair rating. I just thought another point of view should be thrown in just to be fair.

Thanks,
Tom
Message: Posted by: takeachance (Feb 2, 2012 10:14PM)
Good balanced review Tom, and thanks saysold1 for going to the trouble of posting it. Different strokes for different folks I guess. I stand by my opinion still on this in saying it will never take over from the decks I use. So until others buy it I guess its a divided view.
Message: Posted by: J M Talbot (Feb 3, 2012 08:28AM)
Takeachance you say that the deck needs to be stacked, Tom says no. Would like clarity on that as it is an important consideration, although I'm not sure many stacks would hold up with shuffling. Definitely two different opinions.

Thanks to both for posting.

John
Message: Posted by: magicphill (Feb 3, 2012 11:30AM)
The Deck does not need to be stacked it can be shuffled however to minimise risk of the markings being exposed the magician would need to do the shuffling and you could do an overhand shuffle without a problem.

One thing to state this is probably something you'd save for those special occasions on a one to one situation with someone. If you had a group of people surrounding you chances are they would see the markings. I still think this is a neat idea but each to their own I guess some people will find the restrictions off putting.
Message: Posted by: saysold1 (Feb 3, 2012 02:14PM)
Tom says...

"as long as people are in a semi-circle and not behind you there should be no issue."

"There is definitely no stacking - you just need to make sure the markings are on one end."

"If you follow the written instructions only, then you could have an issue as the effect needs strong audience management because of the high probability of them turning in the wrong direction. Using my method with the two jokers as described - then the management is less of an issue. The creators really should have come up with a similar solution to the turning/flipping issue as mine as I was able to come up with it the first time I used it. That is a bit of a weakness. There is a little memory work based on the suits but quite easy to remember and visually it is easy to see in a decently lit room."
Message: Posted by: J M Talbot (Feb 3, 2012 03:25PM)
Thanks for the clarification guys!

John
Message: Posted by: Robert Sixx (Feb 4, 2012 11:34AM)
Does anyone have both this and Useless Resistance, and if so what would be any advantages of this?

Useless Resistance is brilliant, but I'd be in if there are any advantages to this.

Thanks,

Robert
Message: Posted by: saysold1 (Feb 4, 2012 01:14PM)
Tom just showed me his better system today basically he is marking the jokers (one above one below) with the same index markers as would be seen on the correct side of the deck. So essentially even if the spectator places their card wrongways (highly possible) then the magician is still able to easily and quickly see & determine the correct card by looking at the jokers as a reference. In this way the magician would insert cards with the marked in first (unseen) and then get their peek by viewing from the top as the cards are put away - with a single finger hiding the small marks whilst putting the cards inside and closing flap.

In addition, Tom suggested putting the refernce markings on the inner flap in light pencil - also providing an easy reference to see card chosen in case card is turned wrongways.

Pretty cool :)

Don't have this guys so PLEASE don't PM me as I don't know all the workings.
Message: Posted by: saysold1 (Feb 4, 2012 01:42PM)
The joker marks are obviously on the opposite end as the normal markings. Can't be seen easily either by the spec.
Message: Posted by: magicphill (Feb 5, 2012 04:08AM)
Ah I get it now good get out
Message: Posted by: IanB (Feb 5, 2012 09:25AM)
Hi
This is very similar to The Devils Deck aka Miracle Deck in Tarbell Vol 8 page 140
It was marketed a few years ago but I believe no longer available.
It to is an edge marked deck (long side not short) but a card is removed instead of reversed and the edge marks reveal the missing card.
Presentation wise I prefer the Devils Deck as I feel removing a card is safer than having one reversed and it potentially being done incorrectly by the spectator.
Hope this helps?
IanB
Message: Posted by: Nicolino (Feb 5, 2012 12:19PM)
Ian,
thanks for the reference. Back in my head I remembered to have read something along these lines in the past but couldn't remember where.
So, what is the 'improvement' of the LD then?
Message: Posted by: Gaffus Maximus (Feb 29, 2012 07:08PM)
I haven't been here on Magic Café for over 2 years... just popped in today to see what's going on and came across this thread. As I was reading through the thread, I was about to ask if anyone here ever read their Tarbell books, but saw that IanB made the comment. Edge marking a deck has been around for years and is a very clever item to have in your inventory. I've used one for years and you can choose to have the card returned or you can simply have the card withheld from the deck. Either way, you can determine what card was selected. You can have multiple cards selected as well.

I like to apply the principle of edge-marking to other "non-playing card" effects... i.e. "Directors Cut"... they can mix the movie cards, remove the one they are thinking of... I usually have two people each remove a movie card... and then I use the white back of the card stack as a movie screen and I ask them each to imagine a scene from their movie... as I'm looking at the screen trying to pick up their image, I'm really reading the marks and seeing which 2 movies are missing... it takes that effect to an entirely new level and makes it look like real mind-reading. And it's not a card trick (even though it is). ;)

Oh... and you can add the movie cards from the Horror Edition as well... since you are not limited to 26 cards... you could even make up your own movie poster cards and have a 100 movies using this edge marking system (but that would be a a pretty thick stack of cards).

I talked a friend of mine who performs stage mentalism into preparing this effect using real movie posters on large boards... with the poster boards positioned just right, the performer can clearly see the marks from across the performing area, but they remain unseen from the audience.

Anytime you think you might have come across something entirely new... go back and look through your Tarbell books first! ;)
Message: Posted by: dscanning (Feb 29, 2012 09:12PM)
Ive been using Devils deck for years. Is there any significant differences in Logical deck and devil deck?
Message: Posted by: David Klass (Mar 1, 2012 03:41AM)
Just a thought but couldn't you cut a hole in one end of the card box? ;)
Message: Posted by: Failed Magician (Mar 1, 2012 04:07AM)
So Devils Deck is marked on the long side?